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On May 19 2010 16:48 Serpico wrote:
Why are so many people making up excuses for why these conditions are acceptable? If you people were in power the minimum wages in most countries would be atrocious and we'd have no unions or laws to mandate what kind of conditions people work in. Love of the game can only go so far when you're being exploited by greedy bastards. The players aren't asking for the world, just their fair amount of compensation.
Greedy bastards? It is very hard to have a business model around gaming, especially with limited revenue(mainly from advertisers). If you pay these people a minimum wage of 25k, then the A teams will be pared down to lower costs. They'll go from 12 people to 8 or 7 to make up the difference. Then, you'll end up having a few people making a passable living while others are looking in from the outside because of the lack of spots.
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Part of the problem is that korean pros can't play anything else besides PL/MSL/OSL. I believe the only exception is Idra? who, due to winning a lot of money in $ but spending in wons, can get by just fine?
I believe the western approach to progaming is way healthier, although it can never really create a star, way less people get hurt in the process. It's just something you do on the side while you are studying or doing some part-time job, so that you are never really without any useful skills. Basically, you are never at mercy of some big corporations...
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Hmm so 2 million won (what players got for throwing matches) is 4 months pay for a B-teamer, and 2 months for average player that gets on tv.
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I've been thinking about this since before the match fixing scandal hit us in the face, programers ought to have an union so they can get their demands.
*8 hours of practice in a day
*Two days off every week
*A labor contract
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9071 Posts
On May 19 2010 21:50 Caos2 wrote:
I've been thinking about this since before the match fixing scandal hit us in the face, programers ought to have an union so they can get their demands.
*8 hours of practice in a day
*Two days off every week
*A labor contract
this is a rubbish idea, practice time shouldnt be limited. as far as I got from the article progamers get paid for all their 13 or so hours of training per day. If you set it to 8, kids just wont get paid for the extra hours of work. I think in their ambition to become better all progamers will work more, just like they do right now, but wont get money for the effort
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United States47024 Posts
There is one thing I'm curious about. Are costs of living expenses taken out of progamers' pay? Because if not, salary figures slightly undervalue what they're given by the proteams (since most salaried workers have to pay for their own expenses). It's not a ton, since the conditions are pretty poor, but it's something to consider.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Thanks for the translation.
This situation sounds similar to -- but far more extreme than -- the situation with game developers in North America.
In both cases, you have a large number of youths or young adults who want to be a progamer or make games, respectively. As a result, the companies hiring these people can treat them like dirt and still have an unending supply of naive people willing to take it up the rear just for the chance to have their "dream" job.
Part of the problem is this never-ending supply of people who are willing to work under these conditions. If not for them, the average game developer and SC progamer would actually be treated as important assets. But you can't change this behaviour. There are always going to be jobs that lots of people want but only a few people can have.
Now I don't know what the best solutions for these problems are. But hopefully the progaming situation changes soon, because it's ridiculous right now.
Maybe Blizzard having more involvement in korean e-sports will be a good thing. They wouldn't want to support labour conditions like these. For one thing, it'd probably hurt their image more than the "sponsors" (notice not a single sponsor is mentioned by name in the article). But more importantly, Blizzard is an actual game company composed largely of people who actually care to see their game and e-sports in general grow into something awesome, not a mess like this. In contrast, do you think Joe Worker or Joe Manager working for one of the KeSPA sponsors cares about a bunch of nerds playing video games, or about his company's involvement in this debacle? Not so much.
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The structure of the leagues is too intense. How can they run three leagues concurrently with no offseason? Of course the conditions are brutal.
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That information about the amount of time the prospective programer spends in practice is kind of shocking. No wonder so many of the progamers look so exhausted on the televised matches. I play games a whole lot more than is healthy for me, but if I sat in front of a computer 13 hours a day 7 days a week I'd probably be dead by now.
Not to mention that most of those people will never see the inside of a booth, or a cent for the amount of work they've put into the game. While passion and drive can get you far, for a child in Korea to essentially throw away their chance at study and getting a vocation in pursuit of the progaming dream can't be healthy for them, or for the country as a whole.
There are a few non-contact, precision-based sports where young people can perform just as well as adults - things like snooker or darts spring to mind - and to my mind those draw the best parallel with e-sports. For child athletes and sportspeople, having a regimented structure to their training that is balanced around their study is absolutely vital, since there's no guarantee that they can make a living off their respective games later on in life. It's virtually impossible to rectify the situation in Korea, but in the rest of the world at least this kind of thing needs to be made publicly aware -before- esports takes off.
I guess the onus can't be on Kespa or Blizzard or whatever company takes the reins, though; its up to parents and teachers to make sure 13 year olds don't fuck up their lives with gaming as surely as they would with drugs or alcohol.
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I have a friend who moved to Paris to work for Blizzard. If you think for one moment Blizzard will pay one dime more then they have to for anything, you are naive.
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thanks for the article!
from an IP perspective, it's kind of strange because Blizzard, the players, and the trainers (KeSPA) all ought to have some degree of "ownership" of a given game/VOD/replay, but without something like a players' union I guess the players have a difficult time asserting that ownership. Perhaps IP works differently in Korea.
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Thanks for translating l10f! You are legendary!!!
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son of a bitch...i started reading and i dont have time to finish T_T
ty for trans will def read it when my class is done.
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Great article.
And it explains why no one has the right to blame progamers who put their hand in illegal bets.
They have slave like training/life, kespa/teams step on their rights and their future is compromised so it's human and understandable that they try to earn some cash before getting thrown like garbage.
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long article but definetly thought provoking
gives some insight into progammer's mentaility
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On May 19 2010 12:14 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 10:40 hacpee wrote:
Um, there is nothing new in this article. We knew this for a long time. Fact is that the progamers can choose to leave whenever they want and pursue an occupation a real occupation. So NBA players should get paid nothing because it's not a "real" occupation? Get real, they're entertainers/sportsmen who have worked for many years to develop a skill capital that you think they should just throw away because they are not paid appropriately and their job isn't legitimate. You're either a troll or should gtfo of this forum if you're that naive.
He also watches the games presumably. Odd to say they should all just leave if they don't like it. Pretty bad reasoning coming from a fan : /
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thanks for translation! man the life of a progamer is harsh. I would like to see a union.
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Hope my thanks isn't too late, I really really appreciate this. Thanks so much l10f!!
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On May 19 2010 22:04 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 21:50 Caos2 wrote:
I've been thinking about this since before the match fixing scandal hit us in the face, programers ought to have an union so they can get their demands.
*8 hours of practice in a day
*Two days off every week
*A labor contract this is a rubbish idea, practice time shouldnt be limited. as far as I got from the article progamers get paid for all their 13 or so hours of training per day. If you set it to 8, kids just wont get paid for the extra hours of work. I think in their ambition to become better all progamers will work more, just like they do right now, but wont get money for the effort
I got from the article that they aren't paid at all for those 13 hours if they're B-teamers and there's no labour contract nor any hourly wage at all.
On May 19 2010 22:47 TheYango wrote:
There is one thing I'm curious about. Are costs of living expenses taken out of progamers' pay? Because if not, salary figures slightly undervalue what they're given by the proteams (since most salaried workers have to pay for their own expenses). It's not a ton, since the conditions are pretty poor, but it's something to consider.
Still doesn't sound like a lot. I don't think you generally pay heaps of rent when you're sleeping in a room with 8 other people. It's usually pretty cheap then. Power, food, other bills wouldn't come to a lot. They don't live like princes that's for sure.
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EPT
