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l10f
United States3241 Posts
Before you criticize the progamers, look at the reality! Article by Han Yoon Hyung
The world of e-sports was engulfed in a state of shock on the 16th. It was found that current progamers were involved in match fixing. A lot of the fans were dismayed to learn that even a starleague champion made profit from using illegal betting sites and fixing matches.
People are criticizing the progamers involved for perverting the spirit of sports, but not that many people are pointing out why they made such decisions. Progamers are hailed by many fans, but behind the screen, there is a very competitive system. The problem only worsens by the fact that most people believe that "earning money through gaming isn't labor."
We should not stop at criticizing the progamers that were involved, but also look into the "reality" behind their motives. This article is to show the lives and the labor conditions of progamers. Editor.
I didn't know where to start. I was a veteran starleague fan, and a member of the progressive political party, but I didn't know how this would be taken by the progamers. The lives of progamers were a sensitive subject. The progamers and even fans might say "they're talking about something they don't even know about" if the progressive party raised the issue of rights of progamers.
2010-5-15 Saturday night. It was the day before the official statement on match fixing. Would the interview have been harder if I tried after the statement? I was careful to tell them that their identity would be confidential. The Progressive Party Representative Noh (from here on: Noh), Political Researcher Hong (from here on: Hong), and E-Sports Columnist Kim (aka pain, from here on: Kim) attended the meeting.
Starleague, Survival of the Fittest
Mr. Han (the author, from here on: Han): Have you read "Mookhyang" (a martial art novel)?
Progamer "A" : Yes.
"A" answered more willingly than I thought. Although we lived in completely different worlds, we were both young men from the same time period.
Han: In the novel, the main character learns martial arts and develops along with other children even without a name. One by one, his peers start to disappear, and he develops further and rises to a higer place. I thought starleagues were kind of like that. Since you debuted, to today, what are your views on the lives of progamers, both your life and the lives of your peers that disappeared with your success?
The first thing that comes up when talking about the life of a progamer is the conflict with parents. The most famous progamer, BoxeR, said that his parents did not know he played StarCraft. Back then "progamer" meant just a person looking to earn money from gaming, before games were broadcasted. On the other hand, the top player right now, Flash, persuaded his parents and became a progamer with parental support. However, this is a story of a progamer who rose in the era where earning over a hundred thousand dollars a year playing games were "role models".
"A" also couldn't avoid the conflict. His parents did not allow him to become a progamer because the future is too uncertain, and "A" also understood his parents. "What kind of a parent would want their kid to lead a difficult life? The future is very dim when you become a progamer....." After a few months, his parents allowed him to pursue his dreams, and after passing the test, he joined a team.
Nowadays, in order to get connections to be able to take tests for progaming teams, people spend a lot of time in clans. Once you hit 20, it becomes almost impossible to be tested to join a team. When asked about this, "A" answered "You have to be at least in your 10's. 20 is the oldest you can be."
About daily life and practice time
After he joined the team, the life with the team started. It was before when large sponsors funded each team. "Over ten people lived in one apartment. There was no room to eat together. There were about 10 computers in the living room, and there were a few bunk beds in the bedroom. If there were not enough beds, we slept on the floor...." It didn't happen often, but the teammates kept changing. Few left, and few joined. Some went to military service, gave up, or left for education. Of course there were a few that were kicked out for not being good enough. Still now, B team players come and go without ever being well known.
The dorm became better and better. The sponsors began to look at e-sports. The large corporations took players from other teams, and others accepted a lot of practice partners to pick out new talents. I started to wonder how it was like living with a team.
Han: Is the hierarchy strict? I think it must be since only men are living together.
"A": Nope. There are older and younger players, but it's not a strict hierarchy.
Hong asked about the practice time. A daily cycle of a progamer is different from that of a normal person. They wake up around 10 and their day starts after eating breakfast, and it continues until late night. If you look at "Nal_rA's Oldboy" from OGN, the SPARKYZ team ate lunch at 4PM. I think it was to achieve the optimal condition when the leagues take place in the evening. The practice time, not counting time for food, was 11 hours and 30 minutes for A team members, and 13 hours and 30 mnutes for B team members. This was mandatory.
Can you skip it? If you want to, you must have a reason. A progamer from some team wanted to watch a Beyonce concert and did not attend practice. That day happened to be a bad day for the team. He was punished and pushed down to B team, and ended up retiring trying to rise back up. "I think there were other reasons, but he said that was the biggest reason."
There are barely any days off. There are matches in the weekends, so you have to practice even in the weekends. "A" 's team gets a day and a half off starting right when the last match of the week ends. MBCGame and OGN have very busy schedules. In a year, there is only one month period where no leagues go on. This became worse as time went on. The players are dissatisfied, but have no way of speaking out. Kim put it this way.
"KeSPA was formed by the corporations that sponsor the teams. Because it helps them advertise, they try to increase the number of matches. They fill up the whole year with matches. It's not like they have to pay more to have more matches."
The life of a progamer through the screen is extravagant. Behind it, however, is a restricted life with no way to speak out
The rights of a progamer that creates the content for the games?
Hong pointed out the copyright issues of replays. If there was such a thing, KeSPA would not simply try to increase the number of matches. If a drama is shown again on a different channel, that channel must pay the original company a fee. If a musician plays a piece, that music becomes the musician's. The same should be applied to progamers and replays.
This problem is very complicated. The VOD shown on TV is not simply the replay of a progamer, but it contains the explanation of the commentators and the views of the observer. When we watch these games, there are many parties involved. There are Blizzard, the gamers, and the broadcasting companies.
Right now, the games are the properties of the broadcasting companies, and the rights of the players are handled by the sponsors that pay those gamers, through KeSPA. Blizzard is trying to claim their rights in the e-sports market with the release of StarCraft II. These powerful organizations silence the rights of the average progamer.
If the sponsors paid the progamers as much as they took the rights away, it would be okay, but the progamers aren't even considered laborers. Noh concentrated on the labor-like state of progaming. He thinks that progamers should have a labor contract with their sponsors. Think about it for a moment. That would cause the problem with child labor. The law prevents children under 15 from being in labor. The famous progamers debuted when they were 15 or 16. Players like BaBy debuted at the age of 13. If we see them as laborers, it is illegal.
The gamers between 15 and 17 years of age can be in labor, but the problem is time. The law prevents adolescents from being in labor at night. Noh said, "There was once this situation in Europe. There was a musical, and a child actor was needed. However, the girl from that country was too young to be put into labor at the time of the showing. The whole country went into debate. It's not a single person's problem, but a problem for the whole society. That's why there was so much debate."
Also, the minimum wage must be met with a labor contract. The minimum wage for 2010 was 4110 wons per hour (app. $3.60). For 44 hours a week, the minimum wage is 928,860 won per month (app. $820). The progamers are required to practice around 60~75 hours a week, and over half of these hours are during weekends and late nights. The weekend and late night minimum wage is 1.5 times larger, so it would be 6165 (app. $5.40) won/hour.
If we say the progamers practice at least 60 hours a week, and if only half of them are part of the 1.5x rate, the minimum amount they need to be paid for a week is 308,250 won (app. $270), for a month, 1,339,345 won (app. $1,180), and for a year, 16,072,155 won (app. $14,000). The minimum wage for a A-team player would be 16 million won, and for B-team player, it would be 20 million (app. $17,600). This shows how much these progamers are working.
If we put these regulations on progaming, the number of progamers would decrease significantly, and some corporations will give up. The increase in pay of a progamer over time will also decrease. However, this will greatly increase the conditions of life of progamers.
This is the reality. B-team players are given a dorm, but they don't get paid. They don't even sign a single thing, let alone a contract. Even if they leave, there are plenty to choose from. The bigger teams pay them 500 thousand wons a month.
What if you're one of the players that play in proleague? They sign a contract. It's not a labor contract, but a civil contract. Even then they get paid 10 million won a year on average and usually doesn't pass 20 million. A few "star" gamers earn over 200 million a year. I'm sure there are a few progamers who get paid between those two numbers, but we won't know exactly how much that is. The pay is not released to the public. Even "A" doesn't know how much his teammates get paid.
Hong asked if the practice hours are mentioned in the civil contract. "A" said no. Hong said if they're going to make certain hours of practice mandatory, it should be a labor contract. Although the hours are not listed in the contract, a civil contract can be nullified by the sponsors at any time, so the players must obey the hours.
Even though StarCraft is an individual sport, a progamer can't participate in even the preliminaries without being in a progaming team. The system is set up so that the sponsors have ultimate control over the progamers. If it's too much to change the contracts to labor contracts, there should be at least a guarantee of the players' rights and futures. The gamers get treated neither as the "creator" of game content nor the "laborers" for the gaming teams.
"What's my plan for the future? That's my #1 problem."
The most sensitive problem for progamers is the mandatory military service. There are a lot of B-team gamers that worry about military service and quit. The famous progamers attend universities to delay the time. Boxer even went to a graduate school before joining the Air Force, forming the Air Force ACE team.
The gamers that are less famous apply for the Korean Cyber University to delay going into military service. "We really just leave the lesson on and practice. We only pay attention shortly before exams, and we take the test online. We don't listen carefully to the lecture." They don't have the time to learn. "If they gave us a few hours a day, I think I can prepare for my future..."
"A" seemed to have thought about this problem long enough already. He said he was worried about his own future when asked. What happened to his retired peers? "It's not like your experience as a progamer help. Most go into coaching or show programs. Some go abroad to study, and others attend classes at a school. The rest don't do well." I asked what "not doing well" meant. "They don't have a job. There's nothing they can do."
Another opportunity for the progamers is to try to be a progamer for StarCraft II. However, Blizzard made StarCraft II with e-sports in mind, unlike StarCraft. You can't even play against each other without connecting to Battle.net. (In StarCraft it was possible through LAN).
KeSPA negotiated with Blizzard on the topic of StarCraft II as an e-sport, but it didn't go well. They don't allow the progamers to play StarCraft II. Hong asked, "Does it make sense for them to be able to stop us from playing? It's just a game." "A" answered, "I don't know." StarCraft II is currently in beta testing phase.
"I think I'll have a problem with it if they don't let us play after the official release. Like when StarCraft was first released, there will be few of us who change to that game if there are prize tournaments. StarCraft II is on the same line as StarCraft. Those who are good in StarCraft also do well in StarCraft II. It's only the beta but there are worldwide tournaments. The retired progamers already participate in StarCraft II tournaments, and are doing well. When it is officially released, those who are not getting paid will be tempted to try StarCraft II competitively.
There may be players that leave the current system of e-sports to try something new if KeSPA fails to negotiate with Blizzard.
The match fixing incident and e-sports after the release of Starcraft II
When something like match fixing happens, the media criticizes individual integrity. Of course being forced to practice over 10 hours a day at a young age can cause problems. I asked about the progamer knowledge training.
"There are two in one year. You need to attend to keep your license. They talk about improving the tenacity of being a progamer, about the spirit of sports that we should have." I asked if players enjoy these lectures. "Not really... Games and sports are different..."
I thought of the soldiers being mentally trained in the military. The poor environment, the unclear future, the bad pay, and being treated like property has a far greater detrimental effect than two days of lecture can fix. The lure of "black money" must have been tempting no matter how much they were getting paid. It was even more heartbreaking that these players, who always put the game and the competition at the center, would get involved in match fixing. What they needed was not a lecture, but the basic human rights. Hong asked this.
Hong: Do you know the term "880 thousand won era"? What do you think it would be like if the minimum wage for the B-team players was 880 thousand wons (app $770) per month?
"A": That would be good. If you earn that much, wouldn't it be a decent job? We live together yet some of us get paid no money while other get paid 200 million wons. There were a lot of players that didn't even receive spending money.... The sponsors try to spend as least money as possible. After a few years, the money given by the sponsors decrease. Since we don't have the money, we're forced to live together. Between 3~8 people use each room.
Hong: Isn't it bothersome to share a room with so many people?
"A": It's fine, since we don't do anything but sleep in those rooms.
Our discussion was nearing its end. Everyone each made a comment.
Noh: E-sports through the TV is extravagant. A lot of teenagers dream of becoming progamers. Although e-sports has the nation's attention, the living conditions of a progamer is bad. There is a "dark side" of progaming that people don't see even though so many large corporations are involved. It reminded me of the B-team pro baseball players. This is a big problem since young men are involved...
"A": There are too many people wanted to be progamers....
Noh: That's why it's like this. They're using the fact that people all want to become progamers against the progamers themselves.
Kim: For the teams, it becomes easier to restrain the players if there are more practice partners. It's easy because they all compete with each other. Since they don't even pay the practice partners, the more the better. KeSPA themselves say that the rise of the number of progamers is the problem, but they're not decreasing the number of semi pro licenses given through Courage. In the end, the kids jump into a hopeless field of competition. This is shameful.
"A": This problem was known for a long time, but was ignored.
Hong: Didn't Boxer say something about a progamers' union?
"A": That talk has been going on for a long time too but the players have too little strength. I don't even know how the leagues will turn out in the future. What can a player do for himself? I don't even know.
Noh: I learned about a new world today. I can now see it from behind the scenes. Our nation at the front of the world of e-sports and I'm embarrassed about the truth. In the future, I'll be sure to think about the rights of progamers.
What is politics to them?
Many people would say this. "It's so awesome to earn money playing games. What about that is labor? If you think it's that bad, just don't do it!" The society and the "adults" say "You started it because you wanted to do it. You should be able to endure it" naturally. If you think about it that way, no person in the field of sports or arts would be able to earn as much as they work. (Sadly, this is the truth in Korea)
The problem is that when a hobby becomes a market, nobody talks about the rights of the people that produce the content. Some say, to solve this problem, they need to "make it bigger." However, as e-sports grew, the ones suffering at the bottom of the pyramid continued to suffer, and only the "star" progamers' pays increased. It actually had the opposite effect as kids drawn to the scene by these stars found themselves at the bottom of the pyramid, unable to climb. The "adults" are making profits out of the children's passion.
After the long discussion ended, we had dinner together and had a drink. Kim and I talked about "A" 's bright moments and expressed our personal thoughts on the progamers involved in the match fixing incident. "A" doesn't know politics, but he said he has positive feeling towards former president Roh. When asked about Noh, he responded that he knew who he was and didn't have a negative image of him. I didn't say anything about it to "A", but as he was leaving he told me that he would vote for Noh since he at least knows his face. I didn't show it but my heart sank. I wondered what politics, that I'm interested in politics, means to them. As I returned home, I thought to myself that no matter who he votes for, I hope "A" has time to come out and vote on June 2nd.
+ Show Spoiler [Original Article] +지난 16일 e스포츠계는 충격에 휩싸였다. 현직 프로게이머까지 가세한 스타크래프트 경기의 승부조작 사실이 검찰에 의해 확인됐기 때문이다. 우승 경험까지 있는 프로게이머가 승부를 조작해 불법 도박사이트의 베팅 결과를 뒤집고 수수료를 받았다는 사실에 많은 팬들은 허탈함을 감추지 못했다.
20대를 갓 넘은 청년들의 이같은 행위가 스포츠의 순수한 정신을 더럽혔다는 비난이 줄을 잇고 있지만 그들이 왜 그런 선택까지 하게 되었는지에 대해 주목하는 이들은 별로 없다. 프로게이머들의 방송 경기에는 수많은 군중이 몰리지만 그 뒤에는 오랜 시간에 걸친 무한 경쟁과 착취 시스템이 존재한다. 이를 해결하기엔 '게임으로 돈을 버는 것은 노동이 아니다'라는 이중적인 인식 역시 걸림돌이다.
승부를 조작한 프로게이머들을 비난하는 데 그칠 것이 아니라 그들의 '현실'을 들여다봐야 하는 이유가 있는 것은 이 때문이다. 프로게이머들의 삶과 노동조건을 보여주는 기고를 2회에 걸쳐 싣는다. 편집자
어떻게 말을 꺼내야 할지 망설였다. 나는 오랜 스타리그 팬이면서 또한 진보신당 당원이지만, 진보정당이 주최하는 이런 간담회가 프로게이머에게 어떻게 받아들여질지 알 수 없었다. 프로게이머의 생활은 민감한 주제였다. 가령 진보신당이 '프로게이머의 인권' 문제를 제기했을 때 e스포츠 구단이나 프로게이머, 심지어 팬들조차도 '실정 모르는 이들이 판을 들쑤시는' 것으로 여길 수도 있었다.
2010년 5월 15일 토요일 저녁. 프로게이머 승부조작 사건에 대한 공식적인 검찰수사 발표가 나기 전 날이었다. 검찰수사 보도가 난 이후라면 인터뷰가 더 어려웠을까? 소속구단과 신원을 숨기기로 했다는 점도 매우 조심스러웠다. 진보신당 노회찬 대표, 홍원표 정책연구위원, e스포츠 칼럼니스트이자 팬덤의 오랜 '네임드'인 김정근(필명 pain)씨가 함께 간담회에 참석했다.
스타리그라는 강호 무림(江湖武林)
한윤형: 혹시 <묵향> 보셨어요?
프로게이머A: 예. 봤어요.
A는 예상보다 훨씬 선선히 대답했다. 사는 세계는 전혀 다르지만 어쨌든 동시대를 사는 젊은이였다.
한윤형: <묵향>을 보면요, 주인공이 어릴 때 이름도 없이 다른 아이들과 함께 마교에 끌려와서 무공을 배우고 성장하잖아요. 근데 성장하면서 동료들이 어느 순간 하나둘씩 사라지는 경험을 하고, 그러면서 자신은 성장하면서 더 높은 위치에 올라가고……. 프로게이머 세계가 참 강호 무림과 비슷하다는 생각을 했어요. 데뷔할 때부터 오늘에 이르기까지 A님의 시선으로 바라본 프로게이머의 삶, 본인과 본인의 시선에 잡힌 사라진 동료들의 삶에 대해서 얘기해 보았으면 합니다.
프로게이머의 삶을 얘기할 때 처음으로 나오는 주제은 '부모와의 갈등'이다. TV에서도 종종 소개된 가장 유명한 프로게이머 임요환(30, SK텔레콤 T1 소속)의 경우 PC방에서 스타크래프트를 하고 돌아다니는 것을 부모가 몰랐다고 한다. '프로게이머'란 것이 대회 상금을 노리는 사람이던 시절, 즉 방송사리그가 없던 시절의 일이다. 반면 현재 e스포츠 스타리그의 최강자로 군림하는 이영호(18, KT 롤스터 소속)는 부모를 끈질기게 설득했고 결국 부모의 격려를 받으며 프로게이머가 되었다. 이미 억대연봉의 프로게이머가 '롤 모델'이 된 시대의 일이다.
A도 갈등을 피해갈 수 없었다. 부모님은 미래가 불확실하다는 이유로 프로게이머에 도전하는 것을 허락하지 않았고 A 역시 그런 부모를 이해했다. "어느 부모가 고생길을 간다는데 좋아하겠어요. 뒤도 잘 안 보이는 직업인데……." 그렇게 아옹다옹하는 몇 개월의 시간이 흐른 후 간신히 부모의 허락을 받았고, 입단 테스트에서 실력을 인정받아 팀에 들어가게 되었다.
요즘은 입단테스트를 받게 해줄 인맥을 만들기 위해 클랜 생활을 거치기도 하고 스무 살이 넘으면 입단테스트를 받는 게 불가능에 가까워진다. 최근 입단테스트를 받는 후배들의 연령에 대해 물어보니 A는 이렇게 답변했다. "최소 10대죠. 스무 살이 마지노선이라 할 정도에요."
숙소 생활환경과 연습시간을 물어보다
입단 후엔 공동생활이 시작되었다. 지금처럼 기업 스폰서가 제대로 붙어 있던 시절은 아니었다. "아파트 한 채에 열 몇 명이 사는 거죠. 다 같이 둘러앉아 밥을 먹을 만한 공간이 없었죠. 거실에 컴퓨터가 열 대쯤 있고, 방에 이층침대가 몇 개 있어요. 침대 모자라면 바닥에서 자기도 하고……." 흔하지는 않은 일이지만 종종 멤버가 바뀌었다. 몇 명이 빠지고 몇 명이 들어왔다. 군대를 가게 되거나, 생활이 힘들어서 포기를 하거나, 학업을 하겠다고 나가는 경우가 있었다. 물론 실력이 안 된다고 해서 팀에서 내보내는 경우도 있었다. 요즘도 2군 선수는 대중없이 나가거나 들어오기도 한다.
그래도 숙소는 점점 좋아졌다. 기업 스폰서가 e스포츠 바닥에 들어오기 시작했다. 대기업팀은 다른 팀에서 선수를 빼갔고, 그렇지 못한 팀은 연습생을 많이 받아서 새로운 선수를 발굴하는 쪽에 주력했다. 숙소 생활 분위기는 어땠는지 궁금해졌다.
한윤형: 군대 내무반 분위기는 아닌가요? 남자들끼리 공동생활하려면 그럴 것 같은데.
프로게이머A : 아 그런 건 아니에요. 나이에 따라 형 동생 하긴 하지만 그게 군대 같은 서열과는 달라요.
홍원표 연구위원은 연습시간에 대해 물어보았다. 프로게이머의 생활 사이클은 일반인과는 다르다. 10시 정도에 일어나 아침을 먹고 하루를 시작해 새벽에 일과가 마감된다. <온게임넷>에서 방영 중인 리얼 다큐 '강민의 올드보이'를 보면 하이트 스파키즈 팀의 점심식사 시간은 오후 네 시였다. 리그가 주로 저녁시간에 진행되기 때문에 그 시간에 최상의 컨디션을 맞추기 위해서인 것 같았다. 연습시간을 들어보니 도중에 점심, 저녁 식사시간을 한 시간씩 계산해서 뺀다고 해도 1군의 경우 11시간30분, 2군의 경우 13시간30분이 연습시간으로 정해져 있었다. 정해진 것이 그만큼이란 얘기다.
빠질 수는 없을까? 그러려면 사유가 있어야 한단다. 모 팀의 모 게이머는 비욘세 콘서트를 꼭 보고 싶다고 연습을 빠졌다. 그런데 하필 당시 팀 분위기가 안 좋았다. 결국 그는 팀의 지시에 불응했다는 이유로 징계를 받아 2군으로 강등됐고 재기하려 노력하다가 결국 은퇴했다. "겹친 문제가 있었을 것 같긴 한데 제일 큰 사유가 그거라고 하더라고요."
경기가 많기 때문에 쉬는 날이 별로 없다. 주말에도 경기가 있으니 당연히 주말에도 연습일정이 짜인다. A가 속한 팀의 경우 일주일 경기가 끝나는 순간부터 하루 반가량의 휴식이 주어진다. 온게임넷과 MBC게임의 경기일정은 너무 빡빡하다. 일 년 열두 달 동안 리그가 없는 '스토브 기간'은 한 달 정도에 불과하다. 리그가 커지고 프로리그 경기 숫자가 늘어나면서 이런 현상은 더 심해졌다. 선수들도 불만은 있지만 뭐라고 할 방법이 없다. 김정근 씨가 이렇게 논평했다.
"한국e스포츠협회(KeSPA)는 팀 스폰서를 하는 기업들이 모여서 구성된 거죠. 그들 입장에선 홍보에 유리하기 때문에 경기수를 늘리려고 합니다. 1년 내내 경기를 틀어야 합니다. 많이 튼다고 돈을 더 주는 것도 아니니 그게 편한 거죠."
▲ 화면으로 보이는 프로게이머들의 삶은 화려하다. 하지만 그 이면엔 근로계약도 없이 삶을 통제당하는 수많은 연습생들의 '강호 무림'이 있다. ⓒ연합뉴스(자료사진)
게임방송이란 콘텐츠에 기여한 선수의 권리는?
홍원표 연구위원은 자연스레 리플레이의 저작권 문제를 지적한다. 그런 게 있다면 무작정 경기수를 늘리려고 하지는 않을 거라는 거다. 가령 드라마가 케이블에 넘어가서 재방송을 하면 케이블 방송국은 해당 작가에게 저작권료를 지불해야 한다. 연주자가 악기를 연주하면 그 공연 내용은 연주자의 것이 된다. 이처럼 리플레이의 저작권 혹은 게임시연에 대한 저작권이 프로게이머에게 있어야 한다는 것이다.
이 문제는 매우 복잡하다. 가령 방송중계 VOD의 경우 단순히 게이머의 리플레이가 아니라 중계진의 해설과 옵서버의 화면구성이 덧씌워진 것이다. 우리가 중계방송을 볼 때 이 콘텐츠 생산에 개입한 주체는 한 둘이 아니다. 블리자드라는 게임회사가 있고, 그 게임을 통해 자신의 기량을 발휘한 프로게이머가 있으며, 마지막으로 게임방송국이 있다.
지금 e스포츠에서 인정되는 권리는 게임방송국의 권리이며 프로게이머의 권리는 그들에게 연봉을 주는 구단주들의 모임인 협회가 대리행사하고 있다. 블리자드는 스타크래프트2 출시를 계기로 e스포츠 시장에서 자신들의 권리를 주장하려 한다. 이들의 각축 속에 한국 e스포츠의 평범한 게이머들의 권리는 묻힌다.
구단이 '창작자'로서의 이들의 권리를 가져간 만큼 연봉으로 대우해주면 좋겠지만 이들은 '노동자'도 아니다. 진보신당 노회찬 대표는 프로게이머의 노동자성에 관심을 기울였다. 그는 프로게이머가 회사와 근로계약을 체결해야 한다고 본다. 프로게이머가 회사와 정식으로 계약하는 노동자가 된다고 생각해보자. 그러면 먼저 미성년자 노동의 문제가 걸린다. 우리나라 법으로 15세 미만이 일을 하면 아동학대다. 요즘 유명한 프로게이머들의 경우 만 15세에서 16세 사이에 데뷔했다. 하지만 전태양(16, 위메이드 폭스 소속)의 경우 만 13세에 데뷔했다. 노동자로 본다면 아동학대다.
만 15세에서 17세까지의 경우 노동을 할 수 있지만 이 경우엔 노동시간이 문제가 된다. 이 나이의 청소년을 야간노동하게 하는 것은 불법이다. 노회찬이 말했다. "유럽 어느 국가에 이런 일이 있었어요. 뮤지컬을 하는데 대본상 아역이 필요했고 아역배우를 썼단 말이에요. 근데 그 나라에서 그 나이의 소녀는 그 뮤지컬이 공연하는 시간에 노동하는 게 금지되어 있었던 거예요. 그래서 사회 전체가 그 문제로 논쟁을 했죠. 이게 단순히 한 명의 문제가 아니라 사회의 기본 틀에 대한 합의 문제였기 때문에 그렇게 논쟁을 했던 거예요."
또한 근로계약을 맺을 경우엔 최저임금이 지급되어야 한다. 2010년 최저임금은 4110원이다. 주44시간 근로를 하는 20인 미만 사업장의 경우 월급은 92만8860원이다. 그런데 구단은 게이머에게 주당 60~75시간의 연습을 요구하고 있고 이 시간 중 절반 이상은 휴일근무와 야간근무다. 휴일근무, 야간근무, 연장근무에 대해선 1.5배의 시급인 6165원이 적용된다.
최소한 주당 60시간 연습을 한다고 치고 그중 절반의 시간에 1.5배 시급이 적용된다고 계산하면 주급은 30만8250원, 월급은 133만9345원, 연봉으로 계산하면 1607만2155원이 된다. 쉽게 말하면 1군선수의 최저임금은 연봉 1600만 원 정도, 2군선수의 최저임금은 2000만 원 정도가 된다. 이게 프로게이머들의 노동 강도다.
이 기준을 적용할 경우 1,2군 프로게이머의 숫자는 크게 줄어야 할 테고 일부 기업은 구단 운영을 포기할 것이다. '스타 프로게이머'의 연봉 상한선도 낮아질 것이다. 그래도 이렇게 할 경우 수많은 청소년과 젊은이들의 열정이 착취당하는 현실은 많이 개선될 것이다.
현실은 이렇다. 2군 연습생은 숙식을 제공받되 연봉이 없다. 그들은 계약서를 안 쓰는 것은 물론 간단한 서약서도 쓰지 않는다. 자의로 언제든지 나올 수 있는 사람들이다. 그들이 나와도 뽑을 사람은 얼마든지 있다. 관대한 구단에선 이들에게 월 50만 원 정도의 지원금을 준다.
프로리그 엔트리에 올라가는 10명 가량의 1군선수에 포함되면 어떨까. 그들은 계약서를 쓴다. 물론 근로계약서가 아닌 민사계약서다. 1군조차도 막 올라오면 연봉이 500만 원인 경우가 있다고 한다. 평균적으로는 1000만 원을 넘고 2000만 원에 못 미친다. 리그를 주름잡는 '스타' 게이머 몇몇의 연봉은 2억이 넘는다. 그 사이에 우리가 이름을 익히 알만한 선수들의 연봉이 있겠지만 그것이 얼마인지는 알 수 없다. 연봉금액은 팬들에게 공개되지 않는다. A도 대략 자신의 팀의 연봉의 상한선과 하한선을 알고 있을 뿐이다.
홍원표 연구위원은 계약서에 연습시간이 명시되어 있는지를 물어보았다. A는 그렇지 않다고 대답했다. 홍원표는 숙소에 잡아두고 시간을 통제할 정도라면 그건 민사계약이 아니라 근로계약이 되어야 한다며 놀라워했다. 숙소생활과 연습시간은 계약서상 강제력이 없지만 구단은 민사계약을 언제든지 파기할 수 있기 때문에 프로게이머는 이에 따를 수밖에 없다.
스타크래프트는 개인시합임에도 불구하고 프로게이머는 구단에 소속되지 않으면 리그 예선에 참가하는 것조차 금지된다. 구단이 선수에 대해서 절대적 우위를 가질 수밖에 없는 체제를 만들어 놓은 것이다. 만일 민사계약을 근로계약으로 대체하는 것이 힘든 일이라 한다면 프로게이머와 그 지망생들의 최소한의 생활과 미래를 대비할 권리를 보장하는 방법이 따로 고민되어야 할 것이다. '창작자' 대우도 못 받고 '노동자' 대우도 못 받는 청소년·청년들을 이렇게 광범위한 규모로 굴릴 수는 없다.
"향후 진로가 뭐냐고? 나도 가장 고민 되는 문제"
프로게이머에게 가장 민감한 것은 군대 문제다. 군대 문제를 고민하다 떨어져나가는 2군 게이머들이 많다. 유명 프로게이머들은 특별전형으로 대학에 입학하기도 한다. 임요환은 대학원까지 입학하며 게이머 생활을 지속하다 일종의 '상무 게임단'에 해당하는 공군 에이스 창단 후 공군 입대했다.
특별전형에 합격할 만큼 유명하지 않은 대부분의 선수는 한국 사이버대학에 입학하여 입대를 연기한다. "사실 (인터넷강의) 틀어놓고 연습을 하거든요. 시험 칠 때 잠시 찾아보고 시험치고, 인터넷으로 시험 치죠. 강의 자체를 열심히 듣는다거나 이러진 않아요." 팀에서는 공부할 시간을 보장해 주지 않는다. "하루에 몇 시간이라도 시간을 주면 자기계발하면서 미래를 대비할 수 있을 텐데……."
A는 이 문제에 대해 이미 많은 생각을 한 것으로 보였다. 향후 진로를 어떻게 예상하느냐고 물으니 자신도 그 부분이 가장 고민된다고 한다. 은퇴한 동료 선수들은 어떻게 되었을까? "(프로게이머 생활이) 경력이 쌓인다거나 그런 것도 아니기 때문에 어렵죠. 대부분이 코치로 가거나 방송 쪽으로 가요. 유학 간 사람도 있고 학교에 가서 공부하는 사람도 있고요. 나머지는 안 좋아요." 안 좋다는 게 무슨 말이냐고 물어보았다. "일을 못하고 있다는 거죠. 할 일이 없어요."
현행 스타리그 프로게이머들에게 남겨진 또 하나의 가능성은 올해 블리자드에서 출시하는 스타크래프트2 게이머에 도전해 보는 것이다. 하지만 블리자드는 스타1 때와는 달리 애초부터 e스포츠를 염두에 두고 스타2를 만들었다. 블리자드가 주관하는 베틀넷에 접속하지 않고서는 유저끼리 대전할 수조차 없다.(스타1의 경우 베틀넷 서버를 통하지 않고 컴퓨터끼리 네트워크망을 연결해 대전하는 일이 가능했다)
블리자드와 협회(KeSPA)는 스타2를 e스포츠화 하는 문제를 두고 저작권 협상을 벌였으나 결렬되었다. 현재 구단에서는 선수들에게 스타2를 하지 못하게 한다. "상식적으로 그걸 못하게 한다는 게 말이 되요? 그냥 게임인데." 눈이 동그라져서 홍원표 위원이 묻자 A는 "전 모르겠어요"라고 대답했다. 스타2는 지금 베타테스트 서비스 중이다.
"그런데 스타2 정식 출시되고 나서도 금지하면 좀 그럴 것 같아요. 예전에 스타1이 처음 나왔을 때처럼 상금 거는 대회가 생기면 그쪽으로 넘어갈 게이머가 있겠죠. 스타2는 스타1의 연장선에 있어요. 스타1 잘하던 이들이 스타2도 잘해요. 스타2는 베타 테스트지만 벌써 세계적으로 리그가 만들어지고 있거든요. 이미 (과거 스타1 게이머였다가) 은퇴한 선수들이 스타2리그에 참여 중인데 상위권이에요. 정식 출시되면 연봉 많이 받던 애들은 스타1에 남아 있겠지만, 안 그런 경우는 도전하고 싶을 거예요."
협회와 블리자드의 협상이 끝내 결렬되고 협회가 계속 구단 선수들을 통제한다면, 현행 e스포츠 체제를 떠나 새로운 도전을 하게 될 선수들이 나오게 될 지도 모른다.
승부조작 사태와 스타2 출시 이후의 e스포츠는?
승부조작 사건 같은 것이 터지면 주로 언론은 개개인의 도덕성을 질타한다. 물론 어린 나이부터 숙소에 틀어박혀 하루 10시간 넘게 게임에만 몰두한 청년들은 건강이나 가치관 형성의 면에서 문제가 생길 소지가 많다. 프로게이머 소양교육에 관해 물어보았다.
"1년에 상반기, 하반기 두 번의 소양교육이 있어요. 교육받아야 프로게이머의 자격이 유지가 되죠. 주로 프로게이머의 인성강화, 스포츠 교수를 초빙해서 얘기를 해요. 기본적으로 가져야 할 스포츠 정신에 대해 강의를 하죠." 호응이 있는지 물어보았다. "호응은 별로……게임과 스포츠가 다르기도 하고……."
군대에서 장병들이 정신교육을 받는 장면이 연상되었다. 협소한 환경에서 생활하고, 미래가 불확실하고, 노력에 걸맞은 대가를 받지 못하고 소모품 취급을 받기 일쑤인 이 청년들에게 1년에 두 번의 소양교육이 무슨 의미를 지니리라 생각하기 어렵다. 연봉이 높았든 낮았든 그들에게 '검은돈'의 유혹은 매력적이었는지도 모른다. 무엇보다 게임을 사랑하고 승부를 중요시했을 그들이 승부조작에 참여하게 되었다는 것은 너무나도 슬픈 일이었다. 그들에게 필요한 건 소양교육이 아니라 최소한의 권리였다. 홍원표 연구위원이 물었다.
홍원표: '88만원 세대'라는 말 알아요? 2군 프로게이머 최저 월급이 88만 원 정도라면 어떨까요?
프로게이머A: 88만원 받으면 다행이죠. 그 정도면 좋은 직업이지 않을까요? 같이 생활하는데 2억에서 0원까지 있는 거예요. 팀에 왔다 나갔다 하는 동생들 보면 용돈도 못 받으며 하는 애들도 많았고……'빡세고'……. 기업들이 돈을 그렇게 쓰려 하지 않아요. 창단 하고 몇 년 지나면 지원이 줄죠. 돈이 없으니 숙소에서 생활할 수밖에 없죠. 저희는 3명~8명이 한 방에서 자요. 독방은 없고.
홍원표: 여럿이서 한 방 쓰면 갑갑하지 않아요?
프로게이머A: 괜찮아요. 방에서 뭘 하는 게 아니라 잠만 자고 나오는 거니까요.
간담회가 정리되어 가고 있었다. 다들 한마디씩 소회를 나누었다.
노회찬: 가끔 케이블방송 채널에서 e스포츠 보면 화려하잖아요. 그리고 게이머가 많은 청소년들의 '로망'이죠. 그만큼 관심을 많이 가지고 있고. 그럼에도 불구하고 사각지대라는 거잖아요. 많은 사람의 관심이 집중된 화려한 조명의 무대 뒤에 숨겨진 비정상적인 환경이 있는 건데, 성공에 대한 욕망 때문에 그 과정에서 일어나는 일들이 묻히죠. 이렇게 뒷면이 허술하다니, 능력 있는 대기업들이 관여하면서도 말이에요. 프로야구 2군 선수 생각이 많이 났습니다. 자라나는 청소년들과 관련된 문제라면 그보다도 훨씬 심각한 건데…….
프로게이머A: 하고 싶은 사람이 너무 많아서…….
노회찬: 그러다 보니까 어차피 뭘 보장 안 해줘도 알아서 하고 대우가 나빠도 감수하니까 그런 거겠죠. 결과적으로는 많은 사람들이 부러워하고 하고 싶어 하는 것을 역이용하고 있다는 그런 느낌이 듭니다.
김정근: 팀 입장에선 연습생이 많아지면 통제하기가 쉬워요. 서로 경쟁하게 되니까 편하죠. 연습생에게 돈을 주는 것도 아니니까 많이 굴리면 굴릴수록 좋은 거죠. 협회에선 스스로 프로게이머 증가율이 문제라 하면서도 커리지 매치에서 뽑는 준프로 자격(드래프트를 통해 프로가 되기 위한 예비 자격. 준프로의 70%가 프로가 됨)의 숫자를 줄이지 않고 되레 늘리고 있습니다. 결국 수많은 아이들이 (스타리그의 스타를 꿈꾸지만 스타와는 상관없는 팀 프로리그 홍보를 위한) 대책 없는 경쟁의 현장에 뛰어들지요. 안타깝습니다.
프로게이머A: 사실 오랫동안 이런 문제가 알려져 있었지만 묵인되어 왔죠.
홍원표: 임요환 선수가 선수협 만들자는 얘기도 했잖아요?
프로게이머A: 그 얘기도 오래 전부터 나왔는데 선수가 힘이 너무 없어요. 리그가 앞으로 어떻게 될지도 전혀 모르겠어요. 선수가 자신을 위해 뭘 할 수 있을까? 그것도 잘 모르겠어요.
노회찬: 새로운 세계를 알게 되었어요. 이제 무대 뒤 풍경이 그려집니다. 세계적으로도 e스포츠가 가장 앞선 나라인데 현실이 이렇다는 건 부끄럽습니다. 앞으로 선수들을 위한 권고안이나 정책대안 등을 더욱 고민해 보도록 하겠습니다.
그들에게 정치란 무엇일까?
많은 사람들은 이렇게 말할 것이다. "게임하면서 돈 번다니 감지덕지지. 그게 무슨 노동이야? 그게 부조리하다 생각하면 그딴 거 하지마!" 사회와 '어른'들은 "네가 원해서 시작한 일이니 이런 정도는 감내하라"는 말을 자연스럽게 한다. 그렇게 따지면 모든 스포츠나 문화예술 종사자들은 노력의 대가를 받을 수가 없게 된다.(사실 그것이 대한민국의 현실이다)
문제는 문화영역에서의 취미가 산업화가 되었을 때 그 콘텐츠의 생산자를 인간적으로 배려하는 방식이라는 점을 아무도 말하지 않는다. 그 문제를 해결하기 위해 "그래서 더더욱 파이를 키워야 한다"고 말하기도 한다. 하지만 e스포츠계의 파이가 커질 동안 피라미드 아래쪽에서 고생하는 이들의 처우는 나아지지 않았고 '스타 프로게이머'들의 연봉만 높아졌다. 오히려 그들을 보고 이 판에 들어온 수많은 청소년들 때문에 황당한 환경에서 고생하는 이들의 숫자는 더욱 늘어났다. 이렇게 '어른'들은 청년들의 열정을 착취하는 중이다.
길지는 않았던 간담회가 끝난 후 우리는 함께 저녁식사를 하며 막걸리를 한잔씩 마셨다. 뒤풀이 자리에서 나와 김정근 씨는 '스덕 본능'을 발휘하여 A가 가장 빛났던 순간들과 현재의 e스포츠, 그리고 승부조작에 참여한 게이머들에 대한 인간적인 분노를 토로했다. A는 정치에 대해 전혀 모르지만 노무현에 대해서는 좋은 감정을 가지고 있다고 했다. 한명숙에 대해서는 최근의 검찰수사에 대해서만 알고 있고 유시민도 좋아한다고 했다. 노회찬에 대해 물어봤더니 누군지 알고는 있었고 나쁜 이미지는 아니었단다. 헤어질 때 A는 내가 아무 말도 하지 않았는데 '그래도 얼굴을 본 사람이니 만약 투표하러 갈 시간이 있으면 서울시장 후보 노회찬을 찍겠다'고 약속했다. 내색은 안 했지만 마음이 울컥했다. 문득 그들에게 정치가 무엇인지, 내가 정치에 관심을 가진다는 건 무슨 의미인지가 궁금해졌다. 집으로 돌아오며, 누구에게 투표를 하든 그도 6월 2일에 투표를 할 시간이 있었으면 좋겠다고 생각했다.
Source: http://www.pressian.com/article/article.asp?article_num=10100518102804&Section=08&page=1
On May 20 2010 22:50 LanguageofObscenity wrote: Hi everyone! I've got some messages fron Yoon-hyung Han, who's the author of the article. He asked me to translate his words since he can't really speak English. LOL. He wanted me to let you guys know some basic stuff about South-Korean media, E-sports scene, and ultimately himself.
First of all, Pressian is a web-based daily newspaper which is pretty big compared to other leftist internet journals in South Korea. (probably the biggest among them i reckon?) . Fomos is much credited in the Starcraft fandom, but in fact Pressian is a much bigger journal in the web as a general media source. BUT, because these so-called 'progressive' or 'leftist' journals in South Korea weren't really dealing with/ aware of the problems in E-sports scene, Han, who is a member of the New Progressive Party (I know it's a ridiculous name but such party does actually exist), decided to write an article about it and published it on Pressian. After the release of the article, Pressian receievd a number of phone calls from unanimous readers and they protested saying that the E-sports scene doesn't work like that anymore, but we are assuming that these people are actually those who work in the field. (And of course, they are afraid that controversies regarding players' working environment become publicised)
Becuase most South Koreans are business-inclined, their reaction to this kind of problems is usually this: "But if corporations withdraw, isn't that a greater difficulty?". So corporations do not really have any reluctance in exploiting workers, and they treat the players in pretty much the same manner.
Han and his friends see that the fandom as a whole should take some sort of actions after the release of SCII. (read the article thoroughly again please if u r puzzled why choose not to take actions immediately)
And if such action does really take place, Han says that he would really appreciate it if Team Liquid guyz can do something like a petition then (regardless of the form), coz many Koreans do really care about what foreigners say. lol
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Oh man I cannot wait to read my way through this, thanks a lot for the translation!
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Thanks for the translation of the huge article. I enjoyed reading it. This is probably Savior I presume?
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wow... great translation and article. thanks so much.
now that i think about it, I never thought about how LITTLE progamers get paid. Everyone was always focusing on the $200,000+ salaries of the top progamers... but the average A-teamers were making around only $10,000 (under minimum wage?!), and B-teamers make nothing... absolutely ridiculous.
and that stuff about Kespa making as many matches as possible... wow. they make players' lives miserable.
I really wish Boxer had succeeded in making that player's union, it would have been sooooo much better for the players if they could just stand up against all this nonsense. If all the top progamers refused to play one day, the public would take note, and ultimately, Kespa makes money from them. I hope this becomes a reality someday.
edit: this really makes you reconsider the motivations progamers have to cheat... and makes me amazed that IdrA is surviving there
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wow nice work l10f. thank you so much 
their conditions really can be quite bad. even though it is playing games, they have to work so much and don't even get paid. most people would crack under the thought of black money, its much more understandable after this article.
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I really hope that the players step up and start demanding better rights, the situation is absolutely ridiculous. If the fans are shown how bad the situation is maybe they'd be more willing to pay to watch live matches and thus more money could go towards the welfare of the players.
How the fuck is the system so corrupt that people like Baby at 13 can work 10+ h a day and then its not even considered a job, that's fucked up, its not like at that point its just a little bit of a fun 'game' to him. How has there been no public information about the conditions before? Or are the Korean fans just too fucking greedy they don't care and will boycott the matches if they cost to be watched? There is no way a business like this will spread outside of Korea before they are able to make sure the people who are deciding their lives to it will be taken care of.
I really really hope we see a change as SC2 takes over SC1.
edit: IdrA is a god damn beast.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On May 19 2010 05:57 samachking wrote: Thanks for the translation of the huge article. I enjoyed reading it. This is probably Savior I presume?
I think it's safe to assume the progamer "A" wasn't part of the incident. Who knows.
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Read the whole thing; made me really sad... Thanks for the post.
For those of you unfamiliar with the Korean currency, for simplicity's sake, just take off three zero's from the end. So 200 million Won would be approximately $200,000.
:/ Don't really know what to say... Just feel really bad for the players going through this especially now in the midst of this match-fixing scandal. I wonder how e-sports will fare in the future.
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l10f for president. "A" for vice president.
ship it easy money.
Interesting read, shits fucked up, can't wait for times to change and old closed minds to leave. Don't take that the wrong way please.
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Thanks for translating, was a good read.
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Rainbow reference.. going to finish this later
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Wow..I don't know what to say. Thanks for the translation. Hope everything works out for the btter
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On May 19 2010 06:00 l10f wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 05:57 samachking wrote: Thanks for the translation of the huge article. I enjoyed reading it. This is probably Savior I presume? I think it's safe to assume the progamer "A" wasn't part of the incident. Who knows.
Well, its a team that has players with salaries above 200k USD, so A is from SKT/KTF or CJ I presume. + The early conditions resemble CJ's early days as GO.
I always thought this was a pretty crappy job for the average progamer by the amount of work/payoff involved, but this puts the pay more into perspective.
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France2061 Posts
Thanks for the translation l10f.
On May 19 2010 05:59 Puosu wrote: I really hope that the players step up and start demanding better rights, the situation is absolutely ridiculous.
For that to happen in such a harshly competitive environment the more well-known progamers have to take the lead -- if some random B teamer or even a minor A teamer demands an actual job contract/more rights he'll just get bounced and replaced by someone else all too willing to get promoted.
Boxer has his work cut out for him.
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Canada5565 Posts
I liked the comparison between a progamer's replay, or game, and a musician's composition. I think things will change with SCII, unless KeSPA makes changes, other tournaments and organizations will be more than enough of an incentive to leave them.
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Thank you for taking the time to write this, it really helped put some things in perspective.
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9070 Posts
Thank you for the translation l10f , the article is very interesting. Indeed dreaming about being a progamer could be naive, having in mind all the abuse these kids are taking once they join a team. I think beside clear rules and defined rights, potential progamers must really heave more realistic approach to their goals, for now its just like the story of Pokemon, where some kid travels across the world, meats new friends, becomes super famous and good and wins the Pokemon League at the end
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Excellent article and hopefully knocks some sense into kids who think they can make a fortune off of becoming progamers.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Thank you for the translation; excellent and thought-provoking article.
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The title looked like a Rekrul thread. Nice read though.
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thks for the translation~ B teamers and practice partners have such a dificult live O.o and kespa is in fact the organization of the sponsors... I didn't knew that, that explain alot of their positions ... I really hope conditions change, more so if sc2 becames popular in korea
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United States463 Posts
Thank you for the translation. Puts everything under a new light. Even if you already knew that most progamers weren't payed much of anything, the way the facts are laid out in this article is an eye opener.
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wow.. powerful stuff. thanks.
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On May 19 2010 06:09 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 06:00 l10f wrote:On May 19 2010 05:57 samachking wrote: Thanks for the translation of the huge article. I enjoyed reading it. This is probably Savior I presume? I think it's safe to assume the progamer "A" wasn't part of the incident. Who knows. Well, its a team that has players with salaries above 200k USD, so A is from SKT/KTF or CJ I presume. + The early conditions resemble CJ's early days as GO. I always thought this was a pretty crappy job for the average progamer by the amount of work/payoff involved, but this puts the pay more into perspective. Could also be STX, they have some high salaried players and were the last team to get a sponsorship if I remember correctly.
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Thanks for the translation, elton f ftw
I think a large part of the problem is that there is really no money streaming in except from the Sponsors. So these large corporations control the whole shebang, any match is just a huge advertisement in their eyes. They don't care about any of the players, as long as they make their commercials super exciting so tons of people will watch. Really, I don't think it would be difficult to attract the players away from KeSPA for SCII if Blizzard wanted to create a new system. The problem would be in getting any sort of support for it, unless it just ends up being the exact same thing- but controlled by Blizzard (which I would hope not to see). A different model needs to be created that isn't completely reliant upon the sponsors.
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wow.... this is sad Now I respect more the progamers who have to go through all that...
Will Blizzard fix those stuff in SCII? Is it why ultimately Kespa doesn't want to let go of the control over their players/matches?
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thx for translation, was a nice read. even if it was already known, its interesting to hear it from a progamers perspective himself.
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This changes nothing. Those match fixing actions were illegal and killed e-sports for me. it's a choice to become a progamer, it's NOT a MUST.
edit: and savior doesn't need rolex's or 500$ sneakers.
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ty for the translation this is reality, the truth hurts. -_-
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I think the sad truth here is that e-sports needs to become more like real sports in terms of its professionalism and business model. If it costs money to watch games live, you can bet people will pay, just like any other sport. Its so silly that people think that since so many kids want to be progamers, it makes them expendable. How many kids want to be the next Kobe or Lebron?
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Great article, thanks for translation. e-sports in Korea is a shiny apple which is rotten on the inside it seems =(
I think the whole thing needs to be restructured. Reduce the number of games and start charging money for games instead. Inject more money into the system, give the players more breaks. And then the players need a Union!
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On May 19 2010 06:10 Xxio wrote: I liked the comparison between a progamer's replay, or game, and a musician's composition. I think things will change with SCII, unless KeSPA makes changes, other tournaments and organizations will be more than enough of an incentive to leave them.
Blizzard doesn't even want kespa to be apart of SC2 unless they dish out the doe. Knowing how greedy kespa is, the chance of them actually paying is slim to none. If progaming is to continue with SC2, then either kespa and sponsers need to stop being cheap bastards, or a new organization+sponsors step up, or no Korean SC2 progamming (teams and what not) save the odd tournament.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Sigh, thanks for this l10f. Even back when the allegations and accusations were being made, people were bringing this up. It's nice that there's now another side to this sad, sad story.
I'm sorry for you, Mr. A :<
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Great article
They desperately need bargaining power. What Kespa and the powerful Korean corporations behind it are doing is basically exploitation, pure and simple.
Of course corrupt companies like Samsung are never going to agree to something that hurts their bottom line, and they'll just buy off any politicians that would make such a push (or just use their capital to bury and discredit them). So the only real hope is that Blizzard basically crushes Kespa, and then they can have some sort of progamers union with fair wages, better contract/free agency rules, and some sort of forced practice maximum. And maybe an actual season, like other sports.
Thats not very likely to happen.
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Hopefully everyone has seconds thoughts about the recent goings now. I really feel for pro gamers it really sucks that doing something that you LOVE for a living hurts this much for them .
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Great Article! Congratz.
Well, I'm feeling kinda bad right now. I always says to my friends "Wouldn't be cool, get payed for play?!", but I never though it was like that. I mean, I knew progammers trained about 10h ou more/day, but, lose just 1 day to see a concert and being punished going back to B-Team?! That was BS!
Now, i know why those progammers accepted losing on purpose. And now, I'm feeling bad for saying bad stuff to sAviOr.. Indeed sad story..
Altough it's lots of fun watching progammers play, the story behind the cameras it's... sad.
(..and sorry for my bad english)
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If you love the game so much, then why throw matches? Yes, I respect progamers who sacrificed to do something they love. But throwing matches for money is the opposite of that. If you love money more than the game, then you should have stayed in school. Otherwise, if you truly love the game as much as someone like Boxer, then you would never do anything dirty to compromise it.
I feel that many of these kids, like the people who go to Hollywood in hopes of making it big, aren't as much in love with acting or Starcraft as much as they are with the lifestyle and fame they associate with the industry. In short, this article makes me sympathetic to the conditions of progamers, but I still feel the utmost contempt for the cheaters.
As an aside, obviously we derive great entertainment from watching these kids play BW, but maybe the government should be stepping in and banning conditions where kids are stuck in a room playing video games all day every day. Maybe 16 year old reflexes and dexterity plus hours of hard practice is what necessary for us to see the most amazing Starcraft games, but as the situation is right now it just isn't worth it. These practice partners are going to be going into the workforce with poor education and vocational skills because they made a shortsighted decision as kids to be a progamer.
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Thanks for the translation. Maybe if it was harder to get a programer license the current ones could get better treatment? There's like 20ish people per team * 12 teams, thats a lot of money that needs to come from somewhere. Maybe if each team had like 6-8 people max, living conditions would be much better?
In non-korean countries most programing "teams" are like 6-8 per game. Even less for some other and its only so many because alot of the games are like 5v5 (DotA, CS). SC is 1v1 and yet teams have like 20+ people?.
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I think money is money. You need it. It's a fact.
It's easy to say "why throw matches" assuming you work 8h/5day/week and getting a good payment. It's not about loving what you do, it's about playing this all day long, and dont get payed for that.
Everyone says "Do what you like to do" when you're in doubt of what to do as work. But "love" and "fun" isn't the only things you need to live. Gotta make money too.
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On May 19 2010 09:28 guii wrote: I think money is money. You need it. It's a fact.
It's easy to say "why throw matches" assuming you work 8h/5day/week and getting a good payment. It's not about loving what you do, it's about playing this all day long, and dont get payed for that.
Everyone says "Do what you like to do" when you're in doubt of what to do as work. But "love" and "fun" isn't the only things you need to live. Gotta make money too. My point is that if you just went into progaming, not because you love it despite the challenges, but because you wanted to make lots of money, then there is no need for us to feel bad for you when you cheat for money.
Nothing wrong with making money at all, but you should have stayed in school and gotten a decent job to do it. Unless these cheaters are actually starving, there is something very wrong from trying to make money from an illegal act.
If you don't love Starcraft, don't come into progaming to exploit the game for your own gain. No one is forcing you to be a progamer. That is why we respect the ones who sacrificed money and a life to try progaming because they love it.
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For me its quite clear
1. Blizz will organize tournaments with high prizes 2. Korean pros, fed up with their low salaries, will go away from teams/kespa and try to create their own Sc2 pro teams to compete to get that money 3. "Free agency period" hurt sooooo bad this esport. Showing how good players can win $200.000 a year, and other get even less than a half of it
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Thank you for translating this, really interesting read.
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One solution to the progaming problem could be to ban children from practicing for hours a day with a progaming team. This essentially bans underage gamers from participating in progaming unless they are good enough to keep up with those over-age without as much practice and with the burdens of a mandatory school life.
As an alternative, there should be a high school progaming organization for the kids. After they become adults, they may freely choose to become true pros who practice 10 hours a day in a house. Until then, they will be students and the teachers and coaches in a high school will make sure they do not neglect their academics while encouraging balances gaming and student life.
Basically something like how basketball or football is here in the U.S. The problem is that even in Korea gaming might not be popular enough to get that kind of support, but if enough kids are interested then I think it could be a possibility. Also schools may not want to encourage video gaming (as they would with physical sports that are seen as more healthy), but really we are seeing the cost of not having this kind of program and it is much worse.
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This still doesn't make what savior did understandable. Maybe for lesser known gamers it does, but savior was making a lot more money without match fixing than the others would ever make even with illegal gambling.
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Wasnt there some interview of Hyuk here, where he said he earned 50k $ a year? So either I remember wrong or there's big differences between teams on how much they pay their average A-teamers.
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I always felt it was something like this down there, it shouldn't come out as some shocking news for any of you, unless you've been that naive all this time.
Anyways, it's a nice read, thanks for translating.
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On May 19 2010 05:44 JDforever wrote: Nice Artical~~~thx Damn you managed to read that within a minute?! Gotta learn how to do that soon.
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Um, there is nothing new in this article. We knew this for a long time. Fact is that the progamers can choose to leave whenever they want and pursue an occupation a real occupation.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On May 19 2010 10:40 hacpee wrote: Um, there is nothing new in this article. We knew this for a long time. Fact is that the progamers can choose to leave whenever they want and pursue an occupation a real occupation.
yup so the time you spent practicing starcraft to get to their level (what, A/A+ on iccup?) instead of studying can be randomly made up so you can go to a college and "pursue an occupation a real occupation." Especially when getting a job in Korea after high school is very hard.
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Gotta love all the people who are like "if you loved money so much you shouldn't have become a gamer"
Because, you know, it's not like people ever change their minds or regret their decisions anything, right?
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Well, imo, luxury is off the hook in my books
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Why do people say this scandal destroyed esports for them?
The amount fo games played vs the amount of games being thrown is ridiculously high. Its not like all of BW was one big setup.
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Good article. Though yet again, feels like nothing is being done. Boxer where are you?
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On May 19 2010 11:26 alexpnd wrote: Good article. Though yet again, feels like nothing is being done. Boxer where are you? It takes a really brave man to stand up to the huge corporate sponsors, broadcasters, and KeSPA. I'm not sure whether there is a man in progaming brave enough to stand up. Besides, they spend all their time practicing. Where will they get the time to advocate for better conditions?
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I literally want Blizzard to take over Starcraft pro-scene because if this is done, condition of progamers are definitely going to improve significantly.
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On May 19 2010 10:40 hacpee wrote: Um, there is nothing new in this article. We knew this for a long time. Fact is that the progamers can choose to leave whenever they want and pursue an occupation a real occupation. So NBA players should get paid nothing because it's not a "real" occupation? Get real, they're entertainers/sportsmen who have worked for many years to develop a skill capital that you think they should just throw away because they are not paid appropriately and their job isn't legitimate. You're either a troll or should gtfo of this forum if you're that naive.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 19 2010 11:49 XinRan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 11:26 alexpnd wrote: Good article. Though yet again, feels like nothing is being done. Boxer where are you? It takes a really brave man to stand up to the huge corporate sponsors, broadcasters, and KeSPA. I'm not sure whether there is a man in progaming brave enough to stand up. Besides, they spend all their time practicing. Where will they get the time to advocate for better conditions? It's kind of funny. I think the only player who would have enough influence to really advocate those kinds of rights would be someone with bonjwa-level media attention; and the last person who really had that level of attention gave into the pressure and is at the center of this scandal.
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Quite interesting, thanks for doing this
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This is why capitalism doesnt work unregulated.
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There is no player that has enough power to bend the corporation$$$, not even Flash. Theres no united union of players that will be strong enough to bend the corporation$$$. If you want to bend the corporation$$$ you need to go to the kind of people that has the power. The people that has the power is the audience.
Make a South Korean boycott amongst the audience, then you will see things change.
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Thanks a lot for the translation. It's pretty sad the way progamers are treated.
I mean, I guess they could try going on strike. Or have an uprising against the bourgeoisie elite (KeSPA).
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Epic translation, thank you so much l10f !!!
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Korean Capitalism is just too favorable for businesses-so much so that corporations do wield a hefty degree of power.
Couple that with a rigid system in place in the progaming department that enables easy exploitation, and you get yourself the system in place at the moment that the person in the interview is noting.It's just too difficult for the common progamer to stand up, especially in the Korean environment.
Maybe Blizzard can change some of that by breaking up KESPA; however, it is not entirely set in stone here.
One of the sad parts for me is also related to how 'A' is inclined to vote in the upcoming elections. I don't want to turn this into an entire discussion about Korean politics, but he simply seems to be voting based on how much apperances the incumbent president had. If I remember correctly, Roh is more of a business-inclined conservative and I don't really see him addressing the problem at all. But that's just my two cents into a topic I may not really be 100% knowledgeable about.
Either way, a disappointing situation. A key figurehead like Boxer just MIGHT be able to do something due to his name recognition. The average progamer may only hope, but in my opinion, it must either start with a boycott or a political upheaval, neither seem likely at the moment.
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Thanks for posting an interesting article.
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This is just sad :/ All the progamers should randomly do a worker rush in every game of a proleague match to dispute, or at least have their voices heard by the public.
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Now i can't watch a game of brood war without thinking about all the young practice partner helping behind the scene without pay. 
It's more shocking to me thant the match fixing scandal. The whole brood war industry is based on child labor and everyone seems cool with it.
I mean company makes money out of it! It's standard procedure to pay those who help you make the money.
If progaming is only playing games for fun why have tournament with cash prize? Hey it's only a game so let's practice our ass off for free?
I wish i could say that makes me sick and i'm boycotting the OSL, MSL and proleague but i'm weak.
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wow great article. now i can empathize with the gamers involved. they really dont make squat. makes me hate kespa and blizzard more. blizzard dont give a damn for gamers right, they just want the control instead of kespa rofl
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On May 19 2010 14:27 Apex wrote: Korean Capitalism is just too favorable for businesses-so much so that corporations do wield a hefty degree of power.
Couple that with a rigid system in place in the progaming department that enables easy exploitation, and you get yourself the system in place at the moment that the person in the interview is noting.It's just too difficult for the common progamer to stand up, especially in the Korean environment.
Maybe Blizzard can change some of that by breaking up KESPA; however, it is not entirely set in stone here.
One of the sad parts for me is also related to how 'A' is inclined to vote in the upcoming elections. I don't want to turn this into an entire discussion about Korean politics, but he simply seems to be voting based on how much apperances the incumbent president had. If I remember correctly, Roh is more of a business-inclined conservative and I don't really see him addressing the problem at all. But that's just my two cents into a topic I may not really be 100% knowledgeable about.
Either way, a disappointing situation. A key figurehead like Boxer just MIGHT be able to do something due to his name recognition. The average progamer may only hope, but in my opinion, it must either start with a boycott or a political upheaval, neither seem likely at the moment.
american capitalism is no different when it comes to favoring the businesses. they just do it less obviously vs outright favortism shown to big corporations in korea
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Great article. Very glad the scene is trying to get ad much infomation out on this issue as possible.
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Is there even a middle-of-the-road solution that solves all or most of these issues without the application of a metric fuckton of money, influence, and power? Doesn't seem like it. It looks like only Kespa, Blizzard, or a heavyweight outsider can change the base of esports, and the third option is extremely remote.
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
From what I read so far (have to get up early tomorrow for work, ugh), it's a very interesting read! Thanks for the translation!
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Gotta say I already had this image of progaming being borderline slavery on the lower levels so not really anything surprising in there =/
Would be nice to have some sort of organization (like a union) looking after the players rights.
Yeah and big thanks for the translation.
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On May 19 2010 15:04 Squallcloud wrote: I mean company makes money out of it! It's standard procedure to pay those who help you make the money.
Most teams do not make direct money from it (except for selling some team merchandise, which isn't a big income to the team). Attending matches (including OSL/MSL finals and other events) is free, and the sponsors are the ones picking up the tab for the team costs, which aren't cheap. The only ones getting direct payment are OGN and MBC for commercials.
Yes, it would be great for salaries to be higher, but consider that you're talking about salaries for a lot of players, plus coaching staff, plus cook/maid/etc for the house, the house itself and the computer equipment and team clothing. Running a team isn't cheap, and all the sponsors get from it is good PR (and hopefully fans that want to support them and buy their stuff).
It's not as easy as saying "ha! they make millions off of these players, they should pay them more".
BTW I'm not siding against the players here, just trying to show the full picture.
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The easiest solution is for the players to boycott until a union is allowed to be formed or the whole system is restructured. It is a risky move, but if no one is willing to play, then Kespa and the corporate sponsors will have to do something. This will only happen if the top tier players decide to take some action. It is pretty obvious that Boxer has wanted changes for a long time, but not even he has enough clout to pull it off. Right now, it would take someone like Jaedong and/or Flash in conjunction with Boxer to really get the player support needed to start a full on boycott (if not more top players).
It is basically impossible for any company to "take over" the SC market. The best chance any emerging corporation would have is to make a contract with Blizzard for SC2 and publicly state that they will be paying players more and treating them better (minimum pay scale, better contracts, etc). SC1 is dead in the water unless the players do something. I don't see some random billionaire strolling into the Korean E-Sports scene and dropping so much money that Kespa and the current corporations will have to make changes. It is all on the players at this point. Whether they know that or not is still up in the air and whether they are willing to even try it is still extremely remote.
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On May 19 2010 15:57 chameleonism wrote: The easiest solution is for the players to boycott until a union is allowed to be formed or the whole system is restructured. It is a risky move, but if no one is willing to play, then Kespa and the corporate sponsors will have to do something. This will only happen if the top tier players decide to take some action. It is pretty obvious that Boxer has wanted changes for a long time, but not even he has enough clout to pull it off. Right now, it would take someone like Jaedong and/or Flash in conjunction with Boxer to really get the player support needed to start a full on boycott (if not more top players).
It is basically impossible for any company to "take over" the SC market. The best chance any emerging corporation would have is to make a contract with Blizzard for SC2 and publicly state that they will be paying players more and treating them better (minimum pay scale, better contracts, etc). SC1 is dead in the water unless the players do something. I don't see some random billionaire strolling into the Korean E-Sports scene and dropping so much money that Kespa and the current corporations will have to make changes. It is all on the players at this point. Whether they know that or not is still up in the air and whether they are willing to even try it is still extremely remote.
A strike at this point, with the match fixing scandal, will risk killing esports completely. The fans would just turn away.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I believe that part of the reason why progamers don't have a union is because there isn't enough money in esports. The teams don't make money from progaming. To them it's just part of marketing. It doesn't cost anything to watch games live right now and there are still empty seats. So obviously selling tickets isn't the solution. Most of the young kids in Korea play other games, only the older generation (20-30 years old) appreciate starcraft. If there's no money in it, a strike will just end up killing starcraft progaming.
I don't understand why people think Blizzard entering into the scene means that conditions will improve. Blizzard is a business. Why would they throw millions of dollars into esports if there is no benefit? The prize money won't be coming from blizzard. Eventually, It'll have to come from sponsors/viewers. Conditions will only improve if there is a big audience for Starcraft 2.
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Although the story is very compelling, taking a step back and looking at the situation from a different point of view helps. Progaming, besides the highest level, really has absolutely no service to society. It is basically a form of entertainment through competition in a genre that honestly has a large amount of negative externalities. This is different from sports in that sports require something called physical talent and narrows the pool down, while gaming's requirements are a lot lax.
So instead of the select few talented and truely amazing people taking up the industry of entertainment and competition, you have massive crowding. Realistically, the reason why the progamers come out of their short and taxing careers to nothing, because they developed no skills to produce or even function in society. This is somewhat akin to the African American population in America, where the teenagers basically give up education to endeavor in sports. Sure, many have made it; but the ratio of success is quite low.
I honestly don't think this kind of behavior should be supported at all. I think I remember a friend and I talking about progaming, and he said: "If you support your children in becoming progamers, you are a terrible parent." And there's a lot of truth to that. If the teenagers are too wound up in their dreams of grandeur, then the more mature parent have to keep them from throwing their lives away.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
IMO that article is very superficial.
You must compare the situation of professional players and the situation of ballet dancers or that of musicians. Many years of full-time daily trainings and as a result only the stars get high fees…
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On May 19 2010 16:23 Creationism wrote: Although the story is very compelling, taking a step back and looking at the situation from a different point of view helps. Progaming, besides the highest level, really has absolutely no service to society. It is basically a form of entertainment through competition in a genre that honestly has a large amount of negative externalities. This is different from sports in that sports require something called physical talent and narrows the pool down, while gaming's requirements are a lot lax.
So instead of the select few talented and truely amazing people taking up the industry of entertainment and competition, you have massive crowding. Realistically, the reason why the progamers come out of their short and taxing careers to nothing, because they developed no skills to produce or even function in society. This is somewhat akin to the African American population in America, where the teenagers basically give up education to endeavor in sports. Sure, many have made it; but the ratio of success is quite low.
I honestly don't think this kind of behavior should be supported at all. I think I remember a friend and I talking about progaming, and he said: "If you support your children in becoming progamers, you are a terrible parent." And there's a lot of truth to that. If the teenagers are too wound up in their dreams of grandeur, then the more mature parent have to keep them from throwing their lives away.
Reading this i can't help but think that Esport will never grow and only stay a niche activity.
Unless there's some sort of big change that will make people willing to pay for it.
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Why are so many people making up excuses for why these conditions are acceptable? If you people were in power the minimum wages in most countries would be atrocious and we'd have no unions or laws to mandate what kind of conditions people work in. Love of the game can only go so far when you're being exploited by greedy bastards. The players aren't asking for the world, just their fair amount of compensation.
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On May 19 2010 16:48 Serpico wrote: Why are so many people making up excuses for why these conditions are acceptable? If you people were in power the minimum wages in most countries would be atrocious and we'd have no unions or laws to mandate what kind of conditions people work in. Love of the game can only go so far when you're being exploited by greedy bastards. The players aren't asking for the world, just their fair amount of compensation.
You mean why are we looking at this realistically? because the sponsors aren't actually drawing a profit from this, and so good PR and advertising will only pay for so much, its reality.
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There is no Union because they are too young, simple as that. Any kid can barely handle their own parents pressure, you think they could handle corporate-business-guys?
But i believe it can be solved. Just imagine if a handful of big stars that are at least 20something, Boxer,Nada,Reach,Oov,Nal_Ra,Yellow,Jaedong,Stork (i think these guys are mature enough and will be able to take a stand against old-corporate-business-guys if they need to) form an alliance, and start presuring KESPA, just step by step, first demanding that they should be to able claim a map is imbalanced and the map need fixing asap otherwise they wont perform live.
Their firsts demandings shouldnot be anything outrageous, just claiming more fairness, so they easily gain the support of the audiences. And i believe this way, more progammers will join this alliance rapidly, and sooner than later, the Union will be born.
And honestly if there is one person that should start this, that should be Boxer. most programmers will follow him i think.
and if this doenst work then, meh, i cant think of anything else.
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Funny thing is, everyone talks about how KeSPA's supposed to represent the teams when they only represent the teams' MANAGEMENT. I'm Korean, I know what Korean culture is like, and I know for a fact that no progamer is ever going to be assertive or seek change, especially in the positions that they are in.
Only thing that can really alleviate the situation is to have some influence that holds corporate power to break KeSPA's monopoly.
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On May 19 2010 16:56 insanet wrote: There is no Union because they are too young, simple as that. Any kid can barely handle their own parents pressure, you think they could handle corporate-business-guys?
But i believe it can be solved. Just imagine if a handful of big stars that are at least 20something, Boxer,Nada,Reach,Oov,Nal_Ra,Yellow,Jaedong,Stork (i think these guys are mature enough and will be able to take a stand against old-corporate-business-guys if they need to) form an alliance, and start presuring KESPA, just step by step, first demanding that they should be to able claim a map is imbalanced and the map need fixing asap otherwise they wont perform live.
Their firsts demandings shouldnot be anything outrageous, just claiming more fairness, so they easily gain the support of the audiences. And i believe this way, more progammers will join this alliance rapidly, and sooner than later, the Union will be born.
And honestly if there is one person that should start this, that should be Boxer. most programmers will follow him i think.
You could fire 50% of each pro team (A and B teamers) and still come up with something people would want to watch. The progamers know this, and why would you turn your back on the industry that made you, especially when there are no other offers in town? Not to mention the fact that you are finally at the top after slogging through all the shit, you want to turn around and offer others a hand?
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On May 19 2010 17:09 tissue wrote: You could fire 50% of each pro team (A and B teamers) and still come up with something people would want to watch. The progamers know this, and why would you turn your back on the industry that made you, especially when there are no other offers in town? Not to mention the fact that you are finally at the top after slogging through all the shit, you want to turn around and offer others a hand?
it is true, that what i proposed , will require a reaaaaallyyy biggggg solidarity motive behind, so i guess it wont happen. any better suggestions?
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Hello guys. You need to know that the labor market in the eastern countries are incredibly competitive.
The labour market is highly volatile and heavily depends on job demand and supply. This is not UK or some socialist country, where you can make "bus driver union" or "toilet cleaner union" and somehow get a minimum wage, which made everything incredibly expensive. (in the expense of tax payers money *wink* *wink*)
Apparently, the supply of progamers is incredibly huge. hundreds of thousands of kids, their brothers and sisters all want to get paid to play games.
On the other hand, the demand for progamers is incredibly low. there are probably less then 200 a-team/b-team spots to be filled up.
High supply + low demand = low price (wage)
It has nothing to do with kespa, blizzard, sponsors or wateva. Its the fact that the b-teamers are NOT good enough, and even if they quit, 3-4 people will be willing to replace them for free just for the prestige attached to it.
Its just amazing how fast people trounce on kespa/blizzard whenever something that is normal as breathing happens
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Thank you so much for the translation, I wonder if it will ever change anything.
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However you swing this it's still cheating. I lost most of my will to follow the pro scene any more =(
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i think its justified that you get alot of pay if you own, thats how its supposed to work. But yeah, they gotta work out some working terms, i mean shit. 13 hour days.... if its optional sure but 13 hours forced is fucked up.
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On May 19 2010 17:25 iloveHieu wrote: However you swing this it's still cheating. I lost most of my will to follow the pro scene any more =( i don't get it it's only a handful of gamers who cheated how about the majority of gamers who stayed clean? shouldn't you still support them especially since the bad ones have been rooted out
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Ahh, this article is a little bit... how to describe..
Dark Theme? Ah, reality is dark. 
I feel a little bit uncomfortable when reading ;(
It is scary, truth is scary. I thought it was fun being a pro-gamer. Play game earn money, get famous.
It wasn't fun at all.
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On May 19 2010 16:54 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 16:48 Serpico wrote: Why are so many people making up excuses for why these conditions are acceptable? If you people were in power the minimum wages in most countries would be atrocious and we'd have no unions or laws to mandate what kind of conditions people work in. Love of the game can only go so far when you're being exploited by greedy bastards. The players aren't asking for the world, just their fair amount of compensation. You mean why are we looking at this realistically? because the sponsors aren't actually drawing a profit from this, and so good PR and advertising will only pay for so much, its reality.
It's only reality if you sit back and let it happen. Of course being passive wont change anything.
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The reason why there isn't a union and the reason why the conditions are poor are the same. The whole system is incredibly self sustaining despite the terrible conditions. By creating such a huge differential between the star player and the average player, the sponsors can ensure that there will always be a pool of people chasing after the dream of being a star player, while also minimizing their costs by paying the average player less. The more you raise the salaries of the few outliers, the more people you have competing to be a progamer, the less you have to spend on the masses that make up the majorities of the teams. It's a highly efficient incentive structure that produces great players with minimal investment. It also prevents the possibility of union since the players who would be most important to the union have no incentive to join, they are living their dreams, they reached the top, this is why they went through all those years suffering on the B-team or an average A-teamer for, why in the world would they risk the industry and their 200k usd salary to try and create a union. The people who are slaving away and do have an incentive to form a union have no pull, there are hundred other still waiting for the opportunity to get on a team, and these average players aren't the ones people come out in droves to see.
For a young aspiring progamer they just see the dream, earning a boatload of money a year to play a game that you enjoy and the fame that comes with it. They aren't mature enough to do an accurate cost benefit calculus that combines the magnitude of fulfilling their dream with the tiny tiny probability of actually achieving star status. They may understand the difficulties of mediocrity but merely view it as a stepping stone to greatness.
Anyhow, this is sad, nothing new but certainly sad.
Also a few notes on the cheating. 1) I don't understand why this ruins the pro scene for people, the fact that a small minority of the programers threw a very very very small minority of their games does not take anything away from future matches. Why is it less enjoyable to watch Flash play stunning Starcraft just because Savior played under his capabilities?
2) The conditions these players are in definitely have a bearing on how we should evaluate the scandal. What right do we have to demand that they don't throw their games, we as consumers aren't paying a dime, if they are in piss poor conditions and aren't being fairly compensated why shouldn't they be able to play at the level that they want to. The sponsors, broadcasting networks, and even the people betting on them are making money from their labor, but they barely are. It hurts the reputation of the industry but we never had a right to that in the first place. It also hurts the people who bet for the players who threw the games but what claim did the betters have to the players 100% or even their trying to win. A lot of you are just saying "its still cheating" or "its still illegal" but that's not an ethical claim as to whether its right or wrong. The former is just an appeal to our intuitions and the latter appeals to a false conflation between ethics and the law (slavery in the US was legal under the law, the internment of the Japanese in the US is still legal under the law since Korematsu was never overturned). The question of whether it was permissible for the players to throw their matches is the same question as whether anyone has a right to them not throwing those matches, given the conditions I don't think anyone has that right.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 19 2010 06:12 disciple wrote: Thank you for the translation l10f , the article is very interesting. Indeed dreaming about being a progamer could be naive, having in mind all the abuse these kids are taking once they join a team. I think beside clear rules and defined rights, potential progamers must really heave more realistic approach to their goals, for now its just like the story of Pokemon, where some kid travels across the world, meats new friends, becomes super famous and good and wins the Pokemon League at the end This is the best analogy for progaming I've ever seen I think =o
I definitely wanted to go pro [in korea] back in the day when I was 14-17, and while I was probably on some level aware of how bad things were for lower end pros, I think your example probably summed up how I viewed progaming on the whole.
This was a very nice read, and it made me realize that even if the current progaming scene has to die, it might not be such a bad thing. It seems to be the only way forward; building in rights retroactively into this system seems hard.
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great job on the article, what DEFINITELY is needed is a gamer's union for the players. That way they can put some pressure on the corporations and they will have the negotiation power they need but lack as individual players. I think this would be good for e-sports as a whole too.
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On May 19 2010 16:30 nonduc wrote: IMO that article is very superficial.
You must compare the situation of professional players and the situation of ballet dancers or that of musicians. Many years of full-time daily trainings and as a result only the stars get high fees… You can't really do that, because musicians and ballet dancers, if they are not stars, still have talents that people who cannot afford the stars will be willing to hire, or if they end up being in the equivalent of the "B-Teams", they still are good enough to have a regular income from their performance skills that they can either teach younger people in return for pay (ever wonder where all those music and dance teachers come from?) and/or subsist on their talent because there's enough demand from the public even for their performances (through being less expensive to hire, easier to contact etc. etc.)
Pro-gamers don't have that kind of skills that can be taught to kids, nor do they have enough of a market for them to be appreciated as such. There's no "semi-pro" gig at all for gamers, it's an all-in to be in the team/s, or to be out of it.
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On May 19 2010 12:14 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 10:40 hacpee wrote: Um, there is nothing new in this article. We knew this for a long time. Fact is that the progamers can choose to leave whenever they want and pursue an occupation a real occupation. So NBA players should get paid nothing because it's not a "real" occupation? Get real, they're entertainers/sportsmen who have worked for many years to develop a skill capital that you think they should just throw away because they are not paid appropriately and their job isn't legitimate. You're either a troll or should gtfo of this forum if you're that naive.
The NBA is exactly what's wrong with sports. Players like LEbron James and Kobe Bryant make exactly what players like Gilbert Arenas makes. The best players, the S class of basketball makes equivalent to what the Canata of basketball would make. How is that fair? James and Bryant work extra hard improving their game only to be paid just as much as players that don't work hard at all.
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On May 19 2010 16:48 Serpico wrote: Why are so many people making up excuses for why these conditions are acceptable? If you people were in power the minimum wages in most countries would be atrocious and we'd have no unions or laws to mandate what kind of conditions people work in. Love of the game can only go so far when you're being exploited by greedy bastards. The players aren't asking for the world, just their fair amount of compensation.
Greedy bastards? It is very hard to have a business model around gaming, especially with limited revenue(mainly from advertisers). If you pay these people a minimum wage of 25k, then the A teams will be pared down to lower costs. They'll go from 12 people to 8 or 7 to make up the difference. Then, you'll end up having a few people making a passable living while others are looking in from the outside because of the lack of spots.
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Part of the problem is that korean pros can't play anything else besides PL/MSL/OSL. I believe the only exception is Idra? who, due to winning a lot of money in $ but spending in wons, can get by just fine?
I believe the western approach to progaming is way healthier, although it can never really create a star, way less people get hurt in the process. It's just something you do on the side while you are studying or doing some part-time job, so that you are never really without any useful skills. Basically, you are never at mercy of some big corporations...
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Hmm so 2 million won (what players got for throwing matches) is 4 months pay for a B-teamer, and 2 months for average player that gets on tv.
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I've been thinking about this since before the match fixing scandal hit us in the face, programers ought to have an union so they can get their demands.
*8 hours of practice in a day *Two days off every week *A labor contract
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9070 Posts
On May 19 2010 21:50 Caos2 wrote: I've been thinking about this since before the match fixing scandal hit us in the face, programers ought to have an union so they can get their demands.
*8 hours of practice in a day *Two days off every week *A labor contract
this is a rubbish idea, practice time shouldnt be limited. as far as I got from the article progamers get paid for all their 13 or so hours of training per day. If you set it to 8, kids just wont get paid for the extra hours of work. I think in their ambition to become better all progamers will work more, just like they do right now, but wont get money for the effort
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United States47024 Posts
There is one thing I'm curious about. Are costs of living expenses taken out of progamers' pay? Because if not, salary figures slightly undervalue what they're given by the proteams (since most salaried workers have to pay for their own expenses). It's not a ton, since the conditions are pretty poor, but it's something to consider.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Thanks for the translation.
This situation sounds similar to -- but far more extreme than -- the situation with game developers in North America.
In both cases, you have a large number of youths or young adults who want to be a progamer or make games, respectively. As a result, the companies hiring these people can treat them like dirt and still have an unending supply of naive people willing to take it up the rear just for the chance to have their "dream" job.
Part of the problem is this never-ending supply of people who are willing to work under these conditions. If not for them, the average game developer and SC progamer would actually be treated as important assets. But you can't change this behaviour. There are always going to be jobs that lots of people want but only a few people can have.
Now I don't know what the best solutions for these problems are. But hopefully the progaming situation changes soon, because it's ridiculous right now.
Maybe Blizzard having more involvement in korean e-sports will be a good thing. They wouldn't want to support labour conditions like these. For one thing, it'd probably hurt their image more than the "sponsors" (notice not a single sponsor is mentioned by name in the article). But more importantly, Blizzard is an actual game company composed largely of people who actually care to see their game and e-sports in general grow into something awesome, not a mess like this. In contrast, do you think Joe Worker or Joe Manager working for one of the KeSPA sponsors cares about a bunch of nerds playing video games, or about his company's involvement in this debacle? Not so much.
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The structure of the leagues is too intense. How can they run three leagues concurrently with no offseason? Of course the conditions are brutal.
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That information about the amount of time the prospective programer spends in practice is kind of shocking. No wonder so many of the progamers look so exhausted on the televised matches. I play games a whole lot more than is healthy for me, but if I sat in front of a computer 13 hours a day 7 days a week I'd probably be dead by now.
Not to mention that most of those people will never see the inside of a booth, or a cent for the amount of work they've put into the game. While passion and drive can get you far, for a child in Korea to essentially throw away their chance at study and getting a vocation in pursuit of the progaming dream can't be healthy for them, or for the country as a whole.
There are a few non-contact, precision-based sports where young people can perform just as well as adults - things like snooker or darts spring to mind - and to my mind those draw the best parallel with e-sports. For child athletes and sportspeople, having a regimented structure to their training that is balanced around their study is absolutely vital, since there's no guarantee that they can make a living off their respective games later on in life. It's virtually impossible to rectify the situation in Korea, but in the rest of the world at least this kind of thing needs to be made publicly aware -before- esports takes off.
I guess the onus can't be on Kespa or Blizzard or whatever company takes the reins, though; its up to parents and teachers to make sure 13 year olds don't fuck up their lives with gaming as surely as they would with drugs or alcohol.
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I have a friend who moved to Paris to work for Blizzard. If you think for one moment Blizzard will pay one dime more then they have to for anything, you are naive.
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thanks for the article!
from an IP perspective, it's kind of strange because Blizzard, the players, and the trainers (KeSPA) all ought to have some degree of "ownership" of a given game/VOD/replay, but without something like a players' union I guess the players have a difficult time asserting that ownership. Perhaps IP works differently in Korea.
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Thanks for translating l10f! You are legendary!!!
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son of a bitch...i started reading and i dont have time to finish T_T
ty for trans will def read it when my class is done.
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Great article. And it explains why no one has the right to blame progamers who put their hand in illegal bets. They have slave like training/life, kespa/teams step on their rights and their future is compromised so it's human and understandable that they try to earn some cash before getting thrown like garbage.
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long article but definetly thought provoking gives some insight into progammer's mentaility
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Australia2229 Posts
On May 19 2010 12:14 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 10:40 hacpee wrote: Um, there is nothing new in this article. We knew this for a long time. Fact is that the progamers can choose to leave whenever they want and pursue an occupation a real occupation. So NBA players should get paid nothing because it's not a "real" occupation? Get real, they're entertainers/sportsmen who have worked for many years to develop a skill capital that you think they should just throw away because they are not paid appropriately and their job isn't legitimate. You're either a troll or should gtfo of this forum if you're that naive.
He also watches the games presumably. Odd to say they should all just leave if they don't like it. Pretty bad reasoning coming from a fan : /
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United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
thanks for translation! man the life of a progamer is harsh. I would like to see a union.
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Hope my thanks isn't too late, I really really appreciate this. Thanks so much l10f!!
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Australia2229 Posts
On May 19 2010 22:04 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 21:50 Caos2 wrote: I've been thinking about this since before the match fixing scandal hit us in the face, programers ought to have an union so they can get their demands.
*8 hours of practice in a day *Two days off every week *A labor contract this is a rubbish idea, practice time shouldnt be limited. as far as I got from the article progamers get paid for all their 13 or so hours of training per day. If you set it to 8, kids just wont get paid for the extra hours of work. I think in their ambition to become better all progamers will work more, just like they do right now, but wont get money for the effort
I got from the article that they aren't paid at all for those 13 hours if they're B-teamers and there's no labour contract nor any hourly wage at all.
On May 19 2010 22:47 TheYango wrote: There is one thing I'm curious about. Are costs of living expenses taken out of progamers' pay? Because if not, salary figures slightly undervalue what they're given by the proteams (since most salaried workers have to pay for their own expenses). It's not a ton, since the conditions are pretty poor, but it's something to consider.
Still doesn't sound like a lot. I don't think you generally pay heaps of rent when you're sleeping in a room with 8 other people. It's usually pretty cheap then. Power, food, other bills wouldn't come to a lot. They don't live like princes that's for sure.
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Just read the article and a few random posts.
I'd like to point one 'issue' with creating an players union etc. Creating a union is good, and might help in improving living conditions and all the other things.
Problem that occurs is, there will always will be people who "don't care", and who will play without a decent contract, without an honest fee, and who don't mind to play 12-15 hours a day. They will get fed up and leave early, ... but they will always exist.
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On May 19 2010 23:06 yomi wrote: The structure of the leagues is too intense. How can they run three leagues concurrently with no offseason? Of course the conditions are brutal.
Exactly. The problem is of course the fact that going to see a match costs nothing, so money is earned through advertisement alone, which means there's no incentive whatsoever to have any lengthy off-season, and there's a huge incentive to cram as many games into the year as possible.
Like I said earlier, they should start charging for tickets for matches. If they get more money in like that there'd be more incentive to lighten the load.
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well, since Esport is so little widespread it makes sense that large corporations control the entire thing.
Point is, they want to have their work recogniced and paid properly.
In order to topple the sponsors, you must gather icons and start protesting, refuse to play untill your demands are met, what happened with boxers players union?
sad stuff ;(
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Yes you don't earn a lot but what is there to do... When there's so many people who want that position and not that much money to go around, of course the ones who settle for the tiny payroll are the ones you would pick as a team manager.
You can look at every other job for kids of that age and say they deserve to get more. Especially jobs that involves something that appeals to kids like video games, music, etc. The progaming industry is happy to give you a shot at being a progamer, but they can't afford to pay much for it. It's not just a job but a lifestyle... Compare to something like being an au pair, you won't make money but if you enjoy it then its worth considering (though progaming still has that tiny chance of making money big time). Practice partners are still in a position where they can pretty easily leave if they want to. If you can't afford to have practice partners in-house it seems that then you'd just be practicing with the same crowd over internet
Improving the living conditions and practice schedules wouldn't require more money though... I don't see how forcing people to play 12 hours makes them improve much better than a more loose schedule, its just so fucking much... Realistically many players would still practice more on their free time but I would imagine they'd have a better morale too if they have choice over it.
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It's just dishonest to call them progamers when at most 20% of them make enough to call them professionals. The B-teamers should be treated as amateurs and the starleagues held in an open format (with the progamers getting seeded and amateurs having to go through qualification).
Changing the maps every season hurts players too: getting extra practice time on a new map is worth more than practicing on a map that's been played for a year. Just modifying maps between starleagues instead of replacing them would help too, because many ideas would remain the same but the gameplay would change enough to provide entertainment.
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It's quite bad... I wonder, is it even worth to practice that much per day? I don't think you're still learning after the 8th hour when your brain needs a rest.
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On May 20 2010 05:52 Auronz wrote: It's quite bad... I wonder, is it even worth to practice that much per day? I don't think you're still learning after the 8th hour when your brain needs a rest. Everyone can call me crazy but..I think the bar has been set so incredibly high that its really necessary to play that much. Thing is..if they don't make them play that much, the really determined players will do it anyway to get that edge. I look at it a different way as the coaches and what not know that if these kids really want their dreams to come true of being famous and great, they have to put in these insane amounts of hours until BW is basically like breathing. Sounds like I'm splitting hairs but I do think there's a difference between someone who plays 8 hours as apposed to 12-13 or even all nighters..even if it doesn't drastically change your play it will at least give you the confidence you're training harder than everyone else and thats big for competition.
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After ret's story another interesting view on the progaming scene in Korea. Thanks for the translation.
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it's kinda hard to blame the guys that got caught in the scandal after reading this...
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Thank you for the translation! Nice article.
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Thanks for the translation
Now that I think about it, the only way this situation could get better is a lockout. They need a players association and a strong leader. They should fight for what they deserve even if it means no Starcraft on TV for a while
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if any one know where I can dl text file for "Mookhyang" the novel please let me know.. I've read from book 1 - 24 twice...but not sure where to get the next books or text files =( that's the greatest martial art novel ever :D
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This is so touching and thought provoking. Progamers that aren't at the top of the pyramid have a tough life. It's a good and ironic analogy to compare a progamer's life to that of a soldier.
Saying to a young progamer, "You wanted to play games, so don't complain if we leave you to rot while we benefit from you promoting our brands" is like saying to a soldier, "You wanted to shoot guns, so don't complain if we leave you to die while we benefit from you fighting for the country".
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On May 19 2010 16:23 Creationism wrote: Although the story is very compelling, taking a step back and looking at the situation from a different point of view helps. Progaming, besides the highest level, really has absolutely no service to society.
"Service to society"? Professional Golf doesn't give anything back to society simply from playing the game. Neither does professional Football, or Basketball. You could argue that these games might raise money for chairty, but there's absolutely no reason an e-sports game cannot do the same beyond it not being popular enough.
It is never about a service to society, it is about a service people want and are willing to pay for.
On May 19 2010 16:23 Creationism wrote: It is basically a form of entertainment through competition in a genre that honestly has a large amount of negative externalities. This is different from sports in that sports require something called physical talent and narrows the pool down, while gaming's requirements are a lot lax.
How are they more lax? I do not know how it is in China, but where I grew up you couldn't throw a stick without it hitting an athlete. Being able to keep 200 APM after 10 hours of gaming takes a different kind of indurance than running 20 miles, but both require it.
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Thanks for the translation!
This makes me want to cry.. T.T
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It's sad how little these players get paid for the amount of work they put in. Dedication, talent and the ability to entertain and inspire people deserves a greater payroll than stupid convenience store cashier's who don't even have any manners.
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United States12607 Posts
HOLY shit, some lucid coverage of the progaming scene comes out of Korea. This is the best and most fascinating article I have ever read about eSports from a Korean news source. Thank you for the translation.
Fomos should take note. I don't even think they have one true reporter there. Journalism is not about asking lame, neat little canned questions and glossing over every major controversy!
What news source is this from? Pressian? Never heard of it…whoever published this article, it deserves more credit in the OP. Addressed so many issues that I have been waiting for any real news on for what seems like forever now (copyright, the lowdown on "cyber university," what happens to progamers who don't make it…). If only this reporter worked on eSports full time, so he could actually go in-depth on some of these controversies!
Man, this article makes eSports journalism in Korea look like a travesty. As an outsider it is extremely frustrating how little transparency there is — here in the states, news agencies are all over every professional league. This is especially true for major sports leagues but even smaller eSports ventures like MLG have had big exposes written about them in major news sources. In Korea, it seems like everyone is content to read the shallow crap that Fomos churns out day-to-day? None of the news sources I've read (limited, of course, by what's translated at TL) seem interested in getting the "real story" behind progaming at all, even when some fascinating controversy pops up. Like, why hasn't Fomos run a major spread on the intricacies of the copyright debate between KeSPA and Blizzard? This is an issue that jeopardizes all of SC progaming in Korea and, as far as I know, they're not at all interested in reporting on it. That is a major What The Fuck. I remember trying to cover KeSPA's free agency system and the bind that it put Jaedong in last fall, and reading Fomos's articles on the topic almost in awe of how uninformative and convoluted they were. Maybe something was lost in translation, but they read more like KeSPA propaganda than real reportage. So frustrating.
Maybe someone more in tune with the Korean media can enlighten me on this: why is there not a greater meritocracy in coverage of eSports? All of the major news sources in progaming: OGN, MBC, Fomos, Daily News (is better, but not by much) seem to be getting away with not producing any good coverage of the most serious issues in Korea's BW scene. How is this possible?
Like, how can it possibly be that a few informal interviews with Ret and Rekrul and Artosis are far more informative on the true state of Korean eSports than nearly every article to come out of Korea in the past 9 years? Like, why do we need Artosis to tell us in his weekly interview that Jaedong only enrolled in "university" to evade the military? Why wasn't that the first line in Fomos's article on his enrollment? There's so much bullshit here.
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Honestly, what would happen if every pro gamer just stopped playing? Go on strike until they get their rights?
With e-sports being as big as it is in Korea, I don't think the strike would last long before they gave in to the gamers demands.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:00 ryanAnger wrote: Honestly, what would happen if every pro gamer just stopped playing? Go on strike until they get their rights?
With e-sports being as big as it is in Korea, I don't think the strike would last long before they gave in to the gamers demands.
It'll be really hard to unite all the progamers, seeing how some of them fare very well. Also, there are always people willing to take their spots if some progamers start striking. Also, it may bring down the already damaged e-sports scene completely.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:00 ryanAnger wrote: Honestly, what would happen if every pro gamer just stopped playing? Go on strike until they get their rights?
With e-sports being as big as it is in Korea, I don't think the strike would last long before they gave in to the gamers demands.
First the players need to get organized, and that is difficult because I think the existing "players organization" is basically an appendage of KeSPA and the players are not allowed to have agents. But hot damn would I love to see a holdout for better pay / more player rights.
Another major obstacle is that (and this is easy to forget) these are a bunch of kids. A lot of them really are dumb enough that they just want to "play the game," regardless of the rights they will have as a progamer. It will take some big leadership to unite the players and convince them all to strike. That is one reason I am disappointed Boxer has been so silent since the end of his military service.
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On May 20 2010 13:21 JWD wrote: ... Maybe someone more in tune with the Korean media can enlighten me on this: why is there not a greater meritocracy in coverage of eSports? All of the major news sources in progaming: OGN, MBC, Fomos, Daily News (is better, but not by much) seem to be getting away with not producing any good coverage of the most serious issues in Korea's BW scene. How is this possible?
Like, how can it possibly be that a few informal interviews with Ret and Rekrul and Artosis are far more informative on the true state of Korean eSports than nearly every article to come out of Korea in the past 9 years? Like, why do we need Artosis to tell us in his weekly interview that Jaedong only enrolled in "university" to evade the military? Why wasn't that the first line in Fomos's article on his enrollment? There's so much bullshit here. My guess is that MBC, Fomos, OGN and Daily News are being really careful on this incident since they think it can lead to a a catastrophy, totally destroying e-sports. That, and maybe a bit of the korean culture in some way?
Alot of the things said on this article I was aware of thx to Artosis, ret, idra, Draco and Nony interviews I've seen over the years, but still amazes me to see the uncertainty that the progamers are living with, not knowing what the fuck is going to happen when SC2 hits the stores, and they cant do shit cuz of Kespa/Blizzard negotiations.
I'm guessing if US starts e-sports coverage/progaming on SC2, it will have to make a stand on how a real progamer should live like, and try to really be the lead on how teams should be run to influence Korean proteams. That, or some politic in Korea trying to change the current situation.
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On May 20 2010 13:21 JWD wrote:Like, how can it possibly be that a few informal interviews with Ret and Rekrul and Artosis are far more informative on the true state of Korean eSports than nearly every article to come out of Korea in the past 9 years? Like, why do we need Artosis to tell us in his weekly interview that Jaedong only enrolled in "university" to evade the military? Why wasn't that the first line in Fomos's article on his enrollment? There's so much bullshit here. I think part of it may be that what the Korean sources make are for Koreans, who might understand it better(living in Korea and such), along with the fact that there are some things they really can't say, while foreigners don't have said restrictions.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:04 l10f wrote: Also, it may bring down the already damaged e-sports scene completely. This sounds like an argument that KeSPA might make to discourage a player strike, but I don't think it holds any water. First, even as a fan I'd gladly tolerate a holdout if it meant better terms for the players. Things like a lighter schedule, more mobility between teams could really up game quality and drama in the pro scene. There are benefits to a strike that are worth risking the "collapse" of eSports in Korea.
But what does that really mean?? If "bringing down the eSports scene" means killing KeSPA and wiping the slate clean for new league organizers and a new atmosphere in progaming, I am all for it. "The system would suffer" is not a legitimate argument in defense of the system, if the system sucks ass.
I say strike. Either KeSPA takes its head out of its ass and the situation of progamers improves, or the entire scene implodes and a better one eventually replaces it. It's not like all of Korea's BW talent or the market for SC will suddenly disappear if a strike completely upends the existing regime!
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5003 Posts
Standard supply and demand. Supply of mediocre players are huge, while supply of star players is low. So, pay the star players enough to keep them, while conditions for mediocre players go down and down until less people are willing to do this.
This will happen no matter what, no matter "what the conditions". Unions? Don't be silly. What you want to do is either make things more competitive (higher skill level to be a progamer/etc), or you just pay them less and less, make conditions worse and worse.
Think other companies will do better? Think conditions will improve if Blizzard or another sponsor came in? Don't count on it, that'll just make the market worse than it is and make an even larger supply of progamers while there is clearly not enough demand for them to begin with (or else they'd be actually paid for their services). I recommend people be realistic, shit like this happen all the time anywhere, whether it be Physics PhDs or sports players in a 3rd world country.
Gotta curb the supply problem if you really want to improve conditions. Unions will just damage the fragile market.
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On May 20 2010 14:00 ryanAnger wrote: Honestly, what would happen if every pro gamer just stopped playing? Go on strike until they get their rights?
With e-sports being as big as it is in Korea, I don't think the strike would last long before they gave in to the gamers demands.
Well first they'd probably be sued for breaking their contracts, and then they'd be replaced by thousands of players who want to get a chance to play professional starcraft on TV.
You also have to figure it would be pretty foolish of them to strike en masse for the possibility at reform, because if it doesn't work, they've just thrown away what they've been putting 60-90 hours a week for 3+ years into.
Also, the ones really needing a reform are the ones on the bottom, and they are the easiest to replace. A top player making a lot of money, getting a lot of televised matches won't want to throw that away. In the end, a mass strike is a nice dream, but it will be foolish of most players do it.
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On May 20 2010 14:08 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 13:21 JWD wrote:Like, how can it possibly be that a few informal interviews with Ret and Rekrul and Artosis are far more informative on the true state of Korean eSports than nearly every article to come out of Korea in the past 9 years? Like, why do we need Artosis to tell us in his weekly interview that Jaedong only enrolled in "university" to evade the military? Why wasn't that the first line in Fomos's article on his enrollment? There's so much bullshit here. I think part of it may be that what the Korean sources make are for Koreans, who might understand it better(living in Korea and such), along with the fact that there are some things they really can't say, while foreigners don't have said restrictions. There are absolutely inefficient cultural barriers at play here, and it may also be true that Korean media is restricted by some archaic, free-speech-crushing regulations.
However it just doesn't make sense that Korean news coverage would suck just because "Koreans already know the real story" (and I've read this argument before). First off, it's obviously not true that all Koreans are informed enough on progaming that it would be pointless for Fomos to do any real reporting (and isn't part of the point of good journalism to teach already-informed readers something new?). But on top of that, writing for an informed audience is not an excuse to suck. You don't see the WSJ or Financial Times or whatever printing misleading articles just because their readers "might understand finance better (being in the business and such)".
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On May 20 2010 14:11 Milkis wrote: Unions? Don't be silly. What you want to do is either make things more competitive (higher skill level to be a progamer/etc), or you just pay them less and less, make conditions worse and worse.
Think other companies will do better? Think conditions will improve if Blizzard or another sponsor came in? Don't count on it, that'll just make the market worse than it is and make an even larger supply of progamers while there is clearly not enough demand for them to begin with (or else they'd be actually paid for their services). I recommend people be realistic, shit like this happen all the time anywhere, whether it be Physics PhDs or sports players in a 3rd world country. I understand where you are coming from, but your conclusions make no sense. I don't see how you can dismiss a player union out of hand when players' unions are a major force in every American sports league—leagues that are undoubtedly even more competitive than BW in Korea.
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On May 20 2010 14:15 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:08 Lightwip wrote:On May 20 2010 13:21 JWD wrote:Like, how can it possibly be that a few informal interviews with Ret and Rekrul and Artosis are far more informative on the true state of Korean eSports than nearly every article to come out of Korea in the past 9 years? Like, why do we need Artosis to tell us in his weekly interview that Jaedong only enrolled in "university" to evade the military? Why wasn't that the first line in Fomos's article on his enrollment? There's so much bullshit here. I think part of it may be that what the Korean sources make are for Koreans, who might understand it better(living in Korea and such), along with the fact that there are some things they really can't say, while foreigners don't have said restrictions. There is absolutely a cultural barrier and it may also be true that Korean media is restricted by some archaic, free-speech-crushing regulations, but it doesn't make sense that Korean news coverage would suck just because "Koreans already know the real story". First off, it's obviously not true that all Koreans are informed enough on progaming that it would be pointless for Fomos to do any real reporting (and isn't part of the point of good journalism to teach already-informed readers something new?). But on top of that, writing for an informed audience is not an excuse to suck. You don't see the WSJ or Financial Times or whatever printing misleading articles just because their readers "might understand finance better (being in the business and such)".
WSJ and Financial Times print misleadings articles all the time.
Anyway, there's no real demand for "real journalism" on Fomos. What would they gain from it, other than making the fragile industry even more fragile? There's no "good" that comes out of it, so I'm guessing KeSPA etc are silencing these outlets so things don't go out of control
I understand where you are coming from, but your conclusions make no sense. I don't see how you can dismiss a player union out of hand when players' unions are a major force in every American sports league—leagues that are undoubtedly even more competitive than BW in Korea.
Unions don't have that much power in Korea. In fact, MBC's recent 30~ day strike got shut down without achieving anything, despite overwhelming support for MBC. There's just such a low possibility that anything will get done especially when these strikes are "illegal" and breaking contracts.Player unions will definitely make the situations if anything, or if they're made, they'll just be for show and serve no real purpose.
Unions attempt to create monopoly power in order to create better conditions for the laborers. It's hard to create monopoly power for anything here unless you get Jaedong Flash etc to join in on the union and go with them, and even then, it'll just make the supply problem worse if anything. It'll just be some artificial problem that'll just make the problem worse overall, until Starcraft gets even bigger in Korea, which I doubt.
You might be right on the supply issue, but isn't like this in most sports? I mean there are probably an enormous amount of people wlling to play proffesional football.
Most players in other sports tend to threathen to strike, but in 90% of the cases they reach an agreement with the ones paying them. There is really only one big difference from the players in other sports and e-sports players in Korea. They don't have a proper union to back them up when they need it. And the unions have worked for other sports so why not Korean esport?
4) What do Minor League players earn?
Minor League Baseball player contracts are handled by the Major League Baseball office. Here are the salary ranges:
First contract season: $1,100/month maximum. After that, open to negotiation
Alien Salary Rates: Different for aliens on visas as mandated by INS (Immigration).
Meal Money: $25 per day at all levels, while on the road
Just consider that, and you'll see how similar that is to the B team conditions in Korea.
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On May 20 2010 14:11 Milkis wrote: Gotta curb the supply problem if you really want to improve conditions. Unions will just damage the fragile market.
You might be right on the supply issue, but isn't like this in most sports? I mean there are probably an enormous amount of people wlling to play proffesional football.
Most players in other sports tend to threathen to strike, but in 90% of the cases they reach an agreement with the ones paying them. There is really only one big difference from the players in other sports and e-sports players in Korea. They don't have a proper union to back them up when they need it. And the unions have worked for other sports so why not Korean esport?
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On May 20 2010 14:19 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:15 JWD wrote:On May 20 2010 14:08 Lightwip wrote:On May 20 2010 13:21 JWD wrote:Like, how can it possibly be that a few informal interviews with Ret and Rekrul and Artosis are far more informative on the true state of Korean eSports than nearly every article to come out of Korea in the past 9 years? Like, why do we need Artosis to tell us in his weekly interview that Jaedong only enrolled in "university" to evade the military? Why wasn't that the first line in Fomos's article on his enrollment? There's so much bullshit here. I think part of it may be that what the Korean sources make are for Koreans, who might understand it better(living in Korea and such), along with the fact that there are some things they really can't say, while foreigners don't have said restrictions. There is absolutely a cultural barrier and it may also be true that Korean media is restricted by some archaic, free-speech-crushing regulations, but it doesn't make sense that Korean news coverage would suck just because "Koreans already know the real story". First off, it's obviously not true that all Koreans are informed enough on progaming that it would be pointless for Fomos to do any real reporting (and isn't part of the point of good journalism to teach already-informed readers something new?). But on top of that, writing for an informed audience is not an excuse to suck. You don't see the WSJ or Financial Times or whatever printing misleading articles just because their readers "might understand finance better (being in the business and such)". WSJ and Financial Times print misleadings articles all the time. Anyway, there's no real demand for "real journalism" on Fomos. What would they gain from it, other than making the fragile industry even more fragile? There's no "good" that comes out of it, so I'm guessing KeSPA etc are silencing these outlets so things don't go out of control You missed the point on my WSJ/FT analogy.
And how can you say there is no demand for real journalism? Neither of us have data on preferences of Korean news readers, but I think the burden is on you to prove your position because it is extremely counterintuitive to say "Koreans do not want good journalism". I suppose Koreans are also content to consume substandard food, shitty cars, bad computers? No.
The "good" that comes out of quality reporting is enormous. We'd have more transparency into KeSPA and there would be more pressure on its officials to rationalize their decisions. We'd be more outraged about the situation of progamers and players would have more leverage to assert more bargaining rights, higher pay, whatever. And purely from the standpoint of a curious intellectual, we'd benefit from having more, better information about what is actually happening in our beloved eSports leagues.
On May 20 2010 14:22 Vlanitak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:11 Milkis wrote: Gotta curb the supply problem if you really want to improve conditions. Unions will just damage the fragile market. You might be right on the supply issue, but isn't like this in most sports? I mean there are probably an enormous amount of people wlling to play proffesional football. Most players in other sports tend to threathen to strike, but in 90% of the cases they reach an agreement with the ones paying them. There is really only one big difference from the players in other sports and e-sports players in Korea. They don't have a proper union to back them up when they need it. And the unions have worked for other sports so why not Korean esport? +1.
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You might be right on the supply issue, but isn't like this in most sports? I mean there are probably an enormous amount of people wlling to play proffesional football.
Most players in other sports tend to threathen to strike, but in 90% of the cases they reach an agreement with the ones paying them. There is really only one big difference from the players in other sports and e-sports players in Korea. They don't have a proper union to back them up when they need it. And the unions have worked for other sports so why not Korean esport?
4) What do Minor League players earn?
Minor League Baseball player contracts are handled by the Major League Baseball office. Here are the salary ranges:
First contract season: $1,100/month maximum. After that, open to negotiation
Alien Salary Rates: Different for aliens on visas as mandated by INS (Immigration).
Meal Money: $25 per day at all levels, while on the road
Just consider that, and you'll see how similar that is to the B team conditions in Korea. Unions? Only for A teamers, who have already "made it". You're not helping the B teamers at all, really.
You missed the point on my WSJ/FT analogy.
And how can you say there is no demand for real journalism? Neither of us have data on preferences of Korean news readers, but I think the burden is on you to prove your position because it is extremely counterintuitive to say "Koreans do not want good journalism". I suppose Koreans are also content to consume substandard food, shitty cars, bad computers? No.
Ah, sorry about the WSJ/FT analogy.
Anyway, I can say that there is no demand for real journalism for eSports. No matter how popular it may seem, it's not a part of mainstream "accepted" culture by any means. My point is simple -- there's a high probability that "real" journalism in eSports will hurt eSports quite considerably, and pretty much damage it.
I definitely agree that transparency is good, but I'm just cynical about how it can happen with KeSPA running everything, and the entire scene just being so fragile. One big shot and the entire market goes down. That's why I would say there isn't any demand -- remember how careful KeSPA has been on revealing this entire scandal, toning down the entire match rigging to just 12 games and going from there, when the problem was likely much deeper.
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On May 20 2010 14:19 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +You might be right on the supply issue, but isn't like this in most sports? I mean there are probably an enormous amount of people wlling to play proffesional football.
Most players in other sports tend to threathen to strike, but in 90% of the cases they reach an agreement with the ones paying them. There is really only one big difference from the players in other sports and e-sports players in Korea. They don't have a proper union to back them up when they need it. And the unions have worked for other sports so why not Korean esport? 4) What do Minor League players earn? Minor League Baseball player contracts are handled by the Major League Baseball office. Here are the salary ranges: First contract season: $1,100/month maximum. After that, open to negotiation Alien Salary Rates: Different for aliens on visas as mandated by INS (Immigration). Meal Money: $25 per day at all levels, while on the road Just consider that, and you'll see how similar that is to the B team conditions in Korea. This is a smart point to raise, but I think you've only highlighted why we consider conditions for players in Korea so poor. Most B-teamers are not getting paid anything. They certainly do not have as many negotiation rights as minor league players (who can, for example, get an agent. Or sign a contract without the approval of their parents, for fuck's sake). And, probably most importantly, minor league baseballers are not required to practice or study the game for 13 hours a day, 7 days a week. (In fact, sidenote: that would probably violate labor laws.)
Put simply: no, B-teamers are not playing under conditions similar to those of minor league baseballers. I understand that there is much less money in progaming than in baseball, so we'd expect conditions for up-and-coming progamers to be much worse than conditions for up-and-coming baseballers. The 13-hour workdays and the lack of pay are understandable—if players want to go through that, it's their decision. What I really object to are the rules that are systematically preventing players from improving their positions. These rules are unfair, archaic, and perhaps keeping players from achieving "efficient" levels of compensation for their work.
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On May 20 2010 14:28 Milkis wrote: I definitely agree that transparency is good, but I'm just cynical about how it can happen with KeSPA running everything, and the entire scene just being so fragile. One big shot and the entire market goes down. That's why I would say there isn't any demand -- remember how careful KeSPA has been on revealing this entire scandal, toning down the entire match rigging to just 12 games and going from there, when the problem was likely much deeper. I see your point and I agree that the present eSports scene is somewhat fragile. But what does it really mean that the "market might go down"? I'm going to quote my above post, in response to l10f, because I addressed this there: if the "market going down" means that KeSPA dies and we have true competition for BW leagues, different tourney organizers trying to woo players, that would be a good thing for the game. It's important to differentiate between the risk of losing current progaming institutions, which might actually be great, and the risk of interest in SC disappearing, which would obviously be horrible but is an extremely unlikely consequence of a player strike or great eSports coverage.
On May 20 2010 14:11 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:04 l10f wrote: Also, it may bring down the already damaged e-sports scene completely. This sounds like an argument that KeSPA might make to discourage a player strike, but I don't think it holds any water. First, even as a fan I'd gladly tolerate a holdout if it meant better terms for the players. Things like a lighter schedule, more mobility between teams could really up game quality and drama in the pro scene. There are benefits to a strike that are worth risking the "collapse" of eSports in Korea. But what does that really mean?? If "bringing down the eSports scene" means killing KeSPA and wiping the slate clean for new league organizers and a new atmosphere in progaming, I am all for it. "The system would suffer" is not a legitimate argument in defense of the system, if the system sucks ass. I say strike. Either KeSPA takes its head out of its ass and the situation of progamers improves, or the entire scene implodes and a better one eventually replaces it. It's not like all of Korea's BW talent or the market for SC will suddenly disappear if a strike completely upends the existing regime!
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This is a smart point to raise, but I think you've only highlighted why we consider conditions for players in Korea so poor. Most B-teamers are not getting paid anything. They certainly do not have as many negotiation rights as minor league players (who can, for example, get an agent. Or sign a contract without the approval of their parents, for fuck's sake). And, probably most importantly, minor league baseballers are not required to practice or study the game for 13 hours a day, 7 days a week. In fact, that would probably violate labor laws.
1,100 MAXIMUM. In AMERICA. Consider America's Per Capital Income and Korea's, it's twice as big.
I mean, I definitely agree with you that practice requirements are ridiculous. America's lucky to have proper labor laws and a more transparent system overall, but remember, if they're getting away with 1,100 maximum per month in America, that's still lower than minimum wage.
What I really object to are the rules that are systematically preventing players from improving their positions. These rules are unfair, archaic, and perhaps keeping players from achieving "efficient" levels of compensation for their work.
I mean, I agree, but I don't think they prevent players from improving their situations. Remember that corporations likely don't get TOO much money out of sponsoring players so they're just trying to cut costs overall. The practice rules are probably there to see if the player can even make it, since I'm considering many of the A team players practice similar amounts if anything. I also wouldn't make assumptions about Minor League Baseball, either.
But in the end, my point is that such conditions are natural in sports. B team players there aren't going to want to stay in B Team forever, they are there to take their chance at the big leagues, much like Minor League players aren't there to play Minor League Ball forever, they're there for their "dreams". They're willingly making the sacrifice in paycut, harsher conditions, just for that chance. I would simply say that people are just willing to take that risk, and what we need to do is cut down on those people if we really want conditions better, or make B team leagues more popular and profitable.
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This sounds like an argument that KeSPA might make to discourage a player strike, but I don't think it holds any water. First, even as a fan I'd gladly tolerate a holdout if it meant better terms for the players. Things like a lighter schedule, more mobility between teams could really up game quality and drama in the pro scene. There are benefits to a strike that are worth risking the "collapse" of eSports in Korea.
But what does that really mean?? If "bringing down the eSports scene" means killing KeSPA and wiping the slate clean for new league organizers and a new atmosphere in progaming, I am all for it. "The system would suffer" is not a legitimate argument in defense of the system, if the system sucks ass.
I say strike. Either KeSPA takes its head out of its ass and the situation of progamers improves, or the entire scene implodes and a better one eventually replaces it. It's not like all of Korea's BW talent or the market for SC will suddenly disappear if a strike completely upends the existing regime!
All that would happen in a strike is the government steps in and enforces contracts, starleagues gets delayed, and in fact, it'll make getting sponsors even HARDER than before.
Wiping the slate clean? Dont' think that way, Korean corporations will 100% remember, and will just not sponsor. Killing KeSPA is like saying to the corporations that's been sponsoring starcraft forever to fuck off and it's sort of unreasonable to expect such a scene to flourish again after that. In fact, if KeSPA dies for reasons like a strike or bad journalism, eSports in Korea is dead, as no company will want to get involved in that. That's why there's a lot of netizen talk about CJ/Hite disbanding after this season
Don't be idealistic. Starcraft is in Korea, not America.
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On May 20 2010 14:36 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote + What I really object to are the rules that are systematically preventing players from improving their positions. These rules are unfair, archaic, and perhaps keeping players from achieving "efficient" levels of compensation for their work. I mean, I agree, but I don't think they prevent players from improving their situations. Remember that corporations likely don't get TOO much money out of sponsoring players so they're just trying to cut costs overall. The practice rules are probably there to see if the player can even make it, since I'm considering many of the A team players practice similar amounts if anything. I also wouldn't make assumptions about Minor League Baseball, either. But in the end, my point is that such conditions are natural in sports. B team players there aren't going to want to stay in B Team forever, they are there to take their chance at the big leagues, much like Minor League players aren't there to play Minor League Ball forever, they're there for their "dreams". They're willingly making the sacrifice in paycut, harsher conditions, just for that chance. I would simply say that people are just willing to take that risk, and what we need to do is cut down on those people if we really want conditions better, or make B team leagues more popular and profitable. First off, good discussion here. Your second paragraph above I totally agree with.
However I really object to your statement that the current regime (KeSPA's regulations) are not preventing players from improving their situations. Being denied agents and allowed only a fake, puppet players union obviously kills bargaining power for progamers. Without agents, players (keep in mind these are kids) are being denied the opportunity to get smart, adult counsel on their contract terms and therefore they are opened up to exploitation by their teams. For a prime example of this you need look no further than Jaedong's free agency imbroglio of last fall. I wrote about that here, and I think it's an excellent example of how an awful system of regulations (KeSPA's "Free Agency") hurt a player's ability to get "market" or "fair" wages for his play.
Also it may be true that Korea is a less competitive, or less meritocratic, environment than the US, but I can almost assure you that companies would be willing to step up and sponsor BW leagues in the absence of KeSPA. Progaming is taking off all over the world right now. With SC2 right around the corner it would be just stupid to ignore all of Korea's SC fandom and talent by refusing to sponsor a league in the absence of KeSPA/the current regime. Hell, this is exactly what GOM tried to do for BW—and it failed probably only because KeSPA used its leverage against pro teams to deny GOM the best players. No KeSPA means leagues like GOM succeed—that's true now more than ever, with interest in SC2 peaking.
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yea, to be honest I expected something like this to be the main reason of the scandal, players should rise against KeSPA, with Boxer and lead to a new ear of e-sports
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5003 Posts
However I really object to your statement that the current regime (KeSPA's regulations) are not preventing players from improving their situations. Being denied agents and allowed only a fake, puppet players union obviously kills bargaining power for progamers. Without agents, players (keep in mind these are kids) are being denied the opportunity to get smart, adult counsel on their contract terms and therefore they are opened up to exploitation by their teams. For a prime example of this you need look no further than Jaedong's free agency imbroglio of last fall. I wrote about that [yrl=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100700]here, and I think it's an excellent example of how an awful system of regulations (KeSPA's "Free Agency") hurt a player's ability to get "market" or "fair" wages for his play. [/url]
Now that you have clarified what you have meant (I have completely misinterpreted it since I was under the impression we were talking about B team players), I agree that those kinds of restrictions are unnecessary, and hinders players from improving their conditions. I don't think agents, however, is feasible -- remember that these players don't have the monetary power to get such advice, and you and I both know exactly what will happen if the teams decide to provide agents for the players as a whole.
My biggest issue with KeSPA and the teams is that they don't operate like a profit making business. Where's the merchandise, and why do I have to wait for specific times to get my starcraft merchandise? Why not sell tickets, why not sell tickets to meet the players, etc? The biggest thing is that the teams get all of their money from sponsors right now, and that's pretty much why any "rights" or "agencies" will be nothing but a farce at this point. When teams have their own income and balances and get more and more independent, that's when Free Agency comes in, and that's when you can actually get what you want to get. (IE, we need billionaires buying teams and buying all the top players, Yankees style), before we do have conditions like the ones for Baseball or any major sports.
Progamers can't bargain, because they're not bargaining with teams, they're bargaining with sponsors. That's a tough sell.
Also it may be true that Korea is a less competitive, or less meritocratic, environment than the US, but I can almost assure you that companies would be willing to step up and sponsor BW leagues in the absence of KeSPA. Progaming is taking off all over the world right now. With SC2 right around the corner it would be just stupid to ignore all of Korea's SC fandom and talent by refusing to sponsor a league in the absence of KeSPA/the current regime. Hell, this is exactly what GOM tried to do for BW—and it failed probably only because KeSPA used its leverage against pro teams to deny GOM the best players. No KeSPA means leagues like GOM succeed—that's true now more than ever, with interest in SC2 peaking.
I don't share your idealism, which is why my response is a lot more cynical "just accept it, that's the way it is" kinda deal. From what I know of Korean culture and Korean corporations, it's highly unlikely that anyone would be willing to pour money into system when the "first system obviously failed" and you have rather disturbing scandals (whether or not that was caused by poor KeSPA practices).
I agree with you, but remember that it's only stupid in our eyes, not theirs. What matters is how korean businesses will see it.
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JWD the answer to all your questions is a combination of cultural differences which extend all the way down to journalism ethics, and probably business politics. Asian cultures simply don't have the same regard for social transparency as westerners do. Whether a reporter's personal ethics should overrule his responsibilities as a journalist is a difficult question to answer. The bottom line is not everything is as absurd as they seem to be. I do however agree the players need a union, I've been making one liners about this for years.
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On May 20 2010 14:55 Milkis wrote: My biggest issue with KeSPA and the teams is that they don't operate like a profit making business. Where's the merchandise, and why do I have to wait for specific times to get my starcraft merchandise? Why not sell tickets, why not sell tickets to meet the players, etc?
Just because 50 people on teamliquid would pay $200 for an mbcgame hoodie doesn't mean there's money to be made.
None of us have any idea about the demand and costs for anything progaming related. I can give you my common sense assurance the people who are paid to run a business try their best to maximize profit. I mean they're already doing a pretty good job on the labor front lol.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:55 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +However I really object to your statement that the current regime (KeSPA's regulations) are not preventing players from improving their situations. Being denied agents and allowed only a fake, puppet players union obviously kills bargaining power for progamers. Without agents, players (keep in mind these are kids) are being denied the opportunity to get smart, adult counsel on their contract terms and therefore they are opened up to exploitation by their teams. For a prime example of this you need look no further than Jaedong's free agency imbroglio of last fall. I wrote about that here, and I think it's an excellent example of how an awful system of regulations (KeSPA's "Free Agency") hurt a player's ability to get "market" or "fair" wages for his play. Now that you have clarified what you have meant (I have completely misinterpreted it since I was under the impression we were talking about B team players), I agree that those kinds of restrictions are unnecessary, and hinders players from improving their conditions. I don't think agents, however, is feasible -- remember that these players don't have the monetary power to get such advice, and you and I both know exactly what will happen if the teams decide to provide agents for the players as a whole. My biggest issue with KeSPA and the teams is that they don't operate like a profit making business. Where's the merchandise, and why do I have to wait for specific times to get my starcraft merchandise? Why not sell tickets, why not sell tickets to meet the players, etc? The biggest thing is that the teams get all of their money from sponsors right now, and that's pretty much why any "rights" or "agencies" will be nothing but a farce at this point. When teams have their own income and balances and get more and more independent, that's when Free Agency comes in, and that's when you can actually get what you want to get. (IE, we need billionaires buying teams and buying all the top players, Yankees style), before we do have conditions like the ones for Baseball or any major sports. Progamers can't bargain, because they're not bargaining with teams, they're bargaining with sponsors. That's a tough sell. Last post before I hit the sack, I have 2 things to say in response:
1) Of course it's feasible for players without money to get agents, agents will work for a cut of any contract they negotiate. All you need is talent to get an agent. And I'm not saying that we need every crappy BW player to have his own agent, but that in the case of major players and major contracts (e.g. Jaedong) an agent is almost necessary to be sure that a player can get what he wants.
Sidenote: Progamers' immaturity is a handicap just like a lot of professional footballers' stupidity. I mean can you imagine what NFL contracts would look like if some of of these oafs were not allowed to negotiate them with an agent, but had to rely only on their own skills and that of their parents?? Both BW players and NFL players are probably smart enough to realize that they could use an agent to help them negotiate with their team, but not smart enough to do the negotiations properly themselves.
2) You raise a fantastic point about it being a problem that teams are reliant on sponsors for their incomes. Your suggestions for how these teams could make money (selling tickets to meet players etc.) are smart but I think the biggest issue here is that teams are not seeing enough of the money from the gaming networks. In SC the money is all in broadcasting really, if I had to guess I would say that it is OGN and MBC who are making out like bandits on eSports. Teams need more opportunity to tap into that revenue flow—as the system is now, we have them relying on sponsors for funding while KeSPA, OGN, and MBC seem to be siphoning off all of the profits from broadcast matches. Yet another bogus, inefficient aspect of the current progaming regime that is likely to change in the absence of KeSPA.
Another sidenote: I'm curious what role the government has in all this. KeSPA is technically a government organization no? That just makes this whole business all the shadier.
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the reality in the end, is only koreans can solve this. our western ideas, doesnt work the same there.
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take into consideration that cost of living is way less in korea compared to other countries and keep in mind that progamers are given free housing and food :o
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 20 2010 15:04 JWD wrote: 2) You raise a fantastic point about it being a problem that teams are reliant on sponsors for their incomes. Your suggestions for how these teams could make money (selling tickets to meet players etc.) are smart but I think the biggest issue here is that teams are not seeing enough of the money from the gaming networks. In SC the money is all in broadcasting really, if I had to guess I would say that it is OGN and MBC who are making out like bandits on eSports. Teams need more opportunity to tap into that revenue flow—as the system is now, we have them relying on sponsors for funding while KeSPA, OGN, and MBC seem to be siphoning off all of the profits from broadcast matches. Yet another bogus, inefficient aspect of the current progaming regime that is likely to change in the absence of KeSPA. OGN and MBCGame already pay Kespa for broadcasting rights. I would guess that Kespa uses the money to pay it's staff and then it's shareholders (Individual Teams). I remember reading an article that says that tv ratings have been falling the last few years. If you watch live streams, you'll also notice that there are less commercials and than before (more commentator talk unfortunately). But that might be a temporary effect of the economic depression. I really doubt OGN and MBCgame is raking in cash. The parent company MBC is actually losing a lot of money right now because businesses reduced their advertising budget due to the economic depression.
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On May 19 2010 16:23 Creationism wrote: Although the story is very compelling, taking a step back and looking at the situation from a different point of view helps. Progaming, besides the highest level, really has absolutely no service to society. It is basically a form of entertainment through competition in a genre that honestly has a large amount of negative externalities. This is different from sports in that sports require something called physical talent and narrows the pool down, while gaming's requirements are a lot lax.
So instead of the select few talented and truely amazing people taking up the industry of entertainment and competition, you have massive crowding. Realistically, the reason why the progamers come out of their short and taxing careers to nothing, because they developed no skills to produce or even function in society. This is somewhat akin to the African American population in America, where the teenagers basically give up education to endeavor in sports. Sure, many have made it; but the ratio of success is quite low.
I honestly don't think this kind of behavior should be supported at all. I think I remember a friend and I talking about progaming, and he said: "If you support your children in becoming progamers, you are a terrible parent." And there's a lot of truth to that. If the teenagers are too wound up in their dreams of grandeur, then the more mature parent have to keep them from throwing their lives away.
Firstly, a huge thanks for the translation to l10f ! Amazing job. None of the information there is surprising to me though unfortunately... It's a large reason I'm so very much looking forward to the death of KeSPA (despite the almost guaranteed death of pro SC:BW that will follow).
On to the above; I have to disagree heartily with these notions that a) physical sports require some form of talent that is more unique than talent required to successfully perform in high level BW and that b) there is the 'massive crowding' in gaming when compared to other areas of entertainment and sport.
There are countless, countless people who play sports, create art/music and so on in an attempt to get to the top of their field and/or make a living. Like in Brood War, it is not surprising that huge numbers fail to do so. It is natural; they are all fields in which there is serious competition, either directly in sport (player v player, or team v team), or in competition for sales from general consumers as is the case with art/music. To illustrate, think about the tennis circuit. There are hundreds of players in professional ranks who you doubtless haven't even heard of. Below that are satellite tour players trying to improve their play and break into the professional scene in a big way. Below them again are national level tournaments. Then state level. And so on and so forth until the players can be delineated to the bottom of the barrel the mid-week ladies competition that is far removed from the upper echelons of the sport. Thousands upon thousands of tennis players will play seriously, attempting to go professional. The vast majority will and do fail. As you said yourself, the success ratio is low.
BW is no different. There are professionals with their licenses, and there are B teamers trying to improve their play and break into the pro scene. The glaring differences are the standards of living and unreasonable requirements placed on B teamers that you simply cannot place, for the most part, on a satellite tour tennis player or an artist or a musician (talking about people from progressed countries of course).
Totally agree with your final paragraph though. At present, the idea of supporting a child to become a progamer is absolutely fraught with danger and real risk to the remainder of that child's life. Until the industry (read KeSPA) develops nobody should be actively encouraged or enticed to enter it; least of all children.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Rainbow who was thrown out of SKT1 for attending the Beyonce concert?
Great article and translation! It really hits all they key problems of kespa and korean esports.
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At least they have a chance of making $ for their 13 hours sitting in front of the PC. Here we have kids who play WoW, CS, Sc2 or whatever for almost the same amount of hours for nothing or little money in return. Probably to escape the real world, i don't know. Well they hope to go pro, but salaries are even worse outside of korea.
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You know, reading this article really makes you appreciate being in America, or even some european countries. I know that the EG guys aren't allowed to talk specifics about their contract, but at least one of them has mentioned that he is a "full-time nerd" and that gaming is his only profession. He is able to make a living and sustain himself just through the contract and sponsorships and then the prize money that comes along with being a starcraft player for team EG. The fact that all these 'foreigner' countries are filled with progamers that are considered to have zero legitimate chance of being a high level A team player in korea can make salaries that many A teamers can't make just makes you really appreciate and be thankful for what we have in the US and some EU countries. In america, e-sports is hardly on the mainstream map. Unless you are a gamer yourself you will not follow professional starcraft or counterstrike or quake or any of those games, yet we can see many guys make it as a living.
True respect for how a team like EG, coL, SK, fnatic, MYM, etc. can do for e-sports in creating a team of different gaming teams. The ability to pool together a top counterstrike, starcraft, quake, etc. team and garner sponsorships so that all these players may enjoy success is truly incredible
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On May 20 2010 16:11 ZlaSHeR wrote: Unless you are a gamer yourself you will not follow professional starcraft or counterstrike or quake or any of those games, yet we can see many guys make it as a living.
More like they make pocket-money and can be happy if they survive the next 5 years with it.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 20 2010 16:11 ZlaSHeR wrote: You know, reading this article really makes you appreciate being in America, or even some european countries. I know that the EG guys aren't allowed to talk specifics about their contract, but at least one of them has mentioned that he is a "full-time nerd" and that gaming is his only profession. He is able to make a living and sustain himself just through the contract and sponsorships and then the prize money that comes along with being a starcraft player for team EG. The fact that all these 'foreigner' countries are filled with progamers that are considered to have zero legitimate chance of being a high level A team player in korea can make salaries that many A teamers can't make just makes you really appreciate and be thankful for what we have in the US and some EU countries. In america, e-sports is hardly on the mainstream map. Unless you are a gamer yourself you will not follow professional starcraft or counterstrike or quake or any of those games, yet we can see many guys make it as a living.
True respect for how a team like EG, coL, SK, fnatic, MYM, etc. can do for e-sports in creating a team of different gaming teams. The ability to pool together a top counterstrike, starcraft, quake, etc. team and garner sponsorships so that all these players may enjoy success is truly incredible Are you sure they get paid? I doubt they get paid anything close to a significant amount of money.
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On May 20 2010 17:04 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 16:11 ZlaSHeR wrote: You know, reading this article really makes you appreciate being in America, or even some european countries. I know that the EG guys aren't allowed to talk specifics about their contract, but at least one of them has mentioned that he is a "full-time nerd" and that gaming is his only profession. He is able to make a living and sustain himself just through the contract and sponsorships and then the prize money that comes along with being a starcraft player for team EG. The fact that all these 'foreigner' countries are filled with progamers that are considered to have zero legitimate chance of being a high level A team player in korea can make salaries that many A teamers can't make just makes you really appreciate and be thankful for what we have in the US and some EU countries. In america, e-sports is hardly on the mainstream map. Unless you are a gamer yourself you will not follow professional starcraft or counterstrike or quake or any of those games, yet we can see many guys make it as a living.
True respect for how a team like EG, coL, SK, fnatic, MYM, etc. can do for e-sports in creating a team of different gaming teams. The ability to pool together a top counterstrike, starcraft, quake, etc. team and garner sponsorships so that all these players may enjoy success is truly incredible Are you sure they get paid? I doubt they get paid anything close to a significant amount of money.
Players like Kim Sung Sik (ReMinD), Park June (Lyn) and other war3 players who played for SK, didnt receive their salaries since more than 1 ~ 2 years now. It's a shame!
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I thought the reason they couldn't charge an audience for tickets was because it would technically classify SC as a "spectator sport" or something, and there would be licensing issues with using another corporations product (Starcraft, Blizzard-Activision) to make a profit?
I'm pretty sure a Korean audience would have no problem paying to watch because A) It will reduce the number of games being played (because no one is going to spend $15, 6 days a week) decreasing progamer stress levels and practice hours, and B) It will support their favourite gamers.
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lol, so idra gets paid because he is white. B teams don't get any money and A teams non-stars get miserable wages.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 20 2010 18:27 HobbitGotGame wrote: I thought the reason they couldn't charge an audience for tickets was because it would technically classify SC as a "spectator sport" or something, and there would be licensing issues with using another corporations product (Starcraft, Blizzard-Activision) to make a profit?
I'm pretty sure a Korean audience would have no problem paying to watch because A) It will reduce the number of games being played (because no one is going to spend $15, 6 days a week) decreasing progamer stress levels and practice hours, and B) It will support their favourite gamers. They don't charge for tickets because they found out that esports became a lot more popular once they didn't charge for tickets. There was an event in the early days of Starcraft. The organizers decided to not charge for admission and 100k people showed up to the esports event, while only 17K people went to the local baseball game. Free admission was the trick that made esports popular. Since then they have not charged for tickets to esports events.
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If they don't charge tickets i wonder where they get revenue from. Maybe thats the reason players get paid miserable. I mean 200 for a very top professional in his field is miserable, a manager in large firm could get more.
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On May 20 2010 19:22 Baddieko wrote: If they don't charge tickets i wonder where they get revenue from. Maybe thats the reason players get paid miserable. I mean 200 for a very top professional in his field is miserable, a manager in large firm could get more.
see how the players look like race car drivers with all those brand names stitched and printed on their uniforms? that's where/
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Really good article. It says out loud alot of things we already knew through the grapevine but don't (want to) think about when we watch the games.
I really hope the top players can band together and can negotiate some better conditions with the teams but honestly I don't see it happening if the government doesn't step in. The government has to force the teams to comply with the labour rules or ALL progamers have to go on a strike. Only two ways I see a change happening.
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Would be cool if Artosis could interview IdrA on that subject. See what he thinks about the salaries, and life conditions of his teammates.
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Very good article VERY good, thank you so much for the translation means a lot
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Hi everyone! I've got some messages fron Yoon-hyung Han, who's the author of the article. He asked me to translate his words since he can't really speak English. LOL. He wanted me to let you guys know some basic stuff about South-Korean media, E-sports scene, and ultimately himself.
First of all, Pressian is a web-based daily newspaper which is pretty big compared to other leftist internet journals in South Korea. (probably the biggest among them i reckon?) . Fomos is much credited in the Starcraft fandom, but in fact Pressian is a much bigger journal in the web as a general media source. BUT, because these so-called 'progressive' or 'leftist' journals in South Korea weren't really dealing with/ aware of the problems in E-sports scene, Han, who is a member of the New Progressive Party (I know it's a ridiculous name but such party does actually exist), decided to write an article about it and published it on Pressian. After the release of the article, Pressian receievd a number of phone calls from unanimous readers and they protested saying that the E-sports scene doesn't work like that anymore, but we are assuming that these people are actually those who work in the field. (And of course, they are afraid that controversies regarding players' working environment become publicised)
Becuase most South Koreans are business-inclined, their reaction to this kind of problems is usually this: "But if corporations withdraw, isn't that a greater difficulty?". So corporations do not really have any reluctance in exploiting workers, and they treat the players in pretty much the same manner.
Han and his friends see that the fandom as a whole should take some sort of actions after the release of SCII. (read the article thoroughly again please if u r puzzled why choose not to take actions immediately)
And if such action does really take place, Han says that he would really appreciate it if Team Liquid guyz can do something like a petition then (regardless of the form), coz many Koreans do really care about what foreigners say. lol
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 20 2010 22:50 LanguageofObscenity wrote: Hi everyone! I've got some messages fron Yoon-hyung Han, who's the author of the article. He asked me to translate his words since he can't really speak English. LOL. He wanted me to let you guys know some basic stuff about South-Korean media, E-sports scene, and ultimately himself.
First of all, Pressian is a web-based daily newspaper which is pretty big compared to other leftist internet journals in South Korea. (probably the biggest among them i reckon?) . Fomos is much credited in the Starcraft fandom, but in fact Pressian is a much bigger journal in the web as a general media source. BUT, because these so-called 'progressive' or 'leftist' journals in South Korea weren't really dealing with/ aware of the problems in E-sports scene, Han, who is a member of the New Progressive Party (I know it's a ridiculous name but such party does actually exist), decided to write an article about it and published it on Pressian. After the release of the article, Pressian receievd a number of phone calls from unanimous readers and they protested saying that the E-sports scene doesn't work like that anymore, but we are assuming that these people are actually those who work in the field. (And of course, they are afraid that controversies regarding players' working environment become publicised)
Becuase most South Koreans are business-inclined, their reaction to this kind of problems is usually this: "But if corporations withdraw, isn't that a greater difficulty?". So corporations do not really have any reluctance in exploiting workers, and they treat the players in pretty much the same manner.
Han and his friends see that the fandom as a whole should take some sort of actions after the release of SCII. (read the article thoroughly again please if u r puzzled why choose not to take actions immediately)
And if such action does really take place, Han says that he would really appreciate it if Team Liquid guyz can do something like a petition then (regardless of the form), coz many Koreans do really care about what foreigners say. lol
Wow, awesome stuff. Thanks for the translation too @OP.
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Great informative article. Although most of us (who has been following the scene for a while) knew about this already, we rarely take the time and really think about what's really going on under the progaming logo's. Reading these salaries put out makes me really feel guilty. This is like children working in factories for no money at all.
Today I am ashamed of watching esports hosted by KeSPA.
Edit just read the 2nd post above me, thanks alot for that as well! (put it in OP?)
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On May 20 2010 20:07 Golden Ghost wrote: Really good article. It says out loud alot of things we already knew through the grapevine but don't (want to) think about when we watch the games.
I really hope the top players can band together and can negotiate some better conditions with the teams but honestly I don't see it happening if the government doesn't step in. The government has to force the teams to comply with the labour rules or ALL progamers have to go on a strike. Only two ways I see a change happening.
I think Starcraft would disappear if government got its greedy hands on it. Fact is that SC doesn't draw the fanbase to pay good salaries. There are no jersey sales, or high ticket prices, or an abundant amount of sponsors.
Heck, MSL regularly has trouble finding sponsors! With the leagues begging for sponsors, the sponsors can pay whatever they want and if they don't get the good rates, they can just choose not to sponsor BW at all.
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On May 21 2010 02:07 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: Great informative article. Although most of us (who has been following the scene for a while) knew about this already, we rarely take the time and really think about what's really going on under the progaming logo's. Reading these salaries put out makes me really feel guilty. This is like children working in factories for no money at all.
Today I am ashamed of watching esports hosted by KeSPA.
Edit just read the 2nd post above me, thanks alot for that as well! (put it in OP?)
If you're ashamed, then don't watch it. Or follow it. Speak with your actions, not with your words.
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wow awesome article thx l0lf
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On May 21 2010 02:29 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 02:07 Boundz(DarKo) wrote: Great informative article. Although most of us (who has been following the scene for a while) knew about this already, we rarely take the time and really think about what's really going on under the progaming logo's. Reading these salaries put out makes me really feel guilty. This is like children working in factories for no money at all.
Today I am ashamed of watching esports hosted by KeSPA.
Edit just read the 2nd post above me, thanks alot for that as well! (put it in OP?) If you're ashamed, then don't watch it. Or follow it. Speak with your actions, not with your words. I won't watch OSL finals.
....or maybe just those vod's :<>
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I hadn't given the subject too much thought, but none of it really comes as a surprise.
edit: typo
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When there is money, there is abuse... nothing new unfortunately...
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Wow I make more money then low end Proleague players working 20 hours a week at a bookstore...that's pretty bad.
I just don't know how it could be legal to get so much work out of someone and give them nothing. It would be interesting to here who is making money off of this and how much, specifically OGN and MBC.
Thanks for translating l10f! Would have never guessed it was this bad.
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On May 21 2010 05:28 Mullet_Power wrote: Wow I make more money then low end Proleague players working 20 hours a week at a bookstore...that's pretty bad.
I just don't know how it could be legal to get so much work out of someone and give them nothing. It would be interesting to here who is making money off of this and how much, specifically OGN and MBC.
Thanks for translating l10f! Would have never guessed it was this bad.
Yeah its definitely not the life to lead...at least over there. I haven't heard of conditions like this in other games or in other countries so maybe its just KeSPA? I follow Cassandra and Grubby's WC3 adventures and they are like usually about Grubby practicing long hours of the day in internet cafes and other such places and then they go out to eat and watch movies or something lol. Like it really seems like he is following his dreams in that respect. Who knows though, I still think even after reading this the dreams of thousands is to be that professional gamer they watch online 
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Good article, lots of good thought provoking stuff in there. Thanks.
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Damn. I knew not everyone made 6 digits, but the amount they make for the work they put in is really harsh.
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On May 21 2010 08:42 Draconicfire wrote: Damn. I knew not everyone made 6 digits, but the amount they make for the work they put in is really harsh. Depends on what currency you are talking about...
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great translation. good article.
i hope SC2 turns out better for the Koreans
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There needs to be a pro gamer union or something. I feel like I am supporting a sweat shop by supporting pro-gaming. Only S. Korea is a highly developed and rich country so you can't even use the "sweat shops are better then unemployment" argument.
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Attempting to form a stable career in any entertainment industry is never easy. Too often, the general populace only sees those few who make it to the top, ignoring the innumerable failures those few passed along the way.
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I'm not too good at wording my ideas but I'll give it a shot...
It almost seems that the amount of money that people earn on average just simply isn't being publisized enough, or the South Korean community just is blissfully ignorant. The interview and the comments I have been reading on this post suggest that every man and his dog would happily sign up to be a programmer if they had the oppertunity. Almost in the same fashion that in Western Cultures people would become professional sports men/women if they had the talent. (Except that the majority of these fantasys come with the promise of money and respect.) This sort of popularity causes the employer to do what ever they like in terms of salary, because they know that there will instantly be another face to replace for the same or less price.
But the main difference between this phenomina and professional sporting is that there just isn't enough money/players needed, for that sort of system to work. You don't need big stadiums to play starcraft, you don't need a full team of 12 players either. It seems that Starcraft has been set up as a much bigger event than it actually is. There just isn't enough money surrounding it AT THE MOMENT for this sort of system to work.
I believe that the better way to go about this sort of event would be to set it up in a way similar to that of... tennis or golf? Single players, practising and working alone with personal sponsors to hone their skills and metagame to win for themselves.
It just seems that instead of trying to build up a solid ground work in which Esports can carefully, fairly and successfully launch, we've tried to just start huge and expect all the little things to fall into place. I just think we've rushed into things with not enough money to support it.
Ahh I'm terrible at wording things and I might try rearticulating this post again but shorter and more precise later, but I just think that they've tried to make gaming into something which it isn't (yet) and the people who are falling into it are suffering because of the idea of stardom.
Obviously for the select few there is a lot money in it, but is it worth the gruelling of what seems like so many young naive lives.
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Hearing about the lower ranking players wages, I kinda feel bad for them. Forgive and forget Koreans and start paying up Kespa. Don't be cheap.
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This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure.
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Won't be watching any more Kepsa organised SC. Pretty shameful way to treat young teenagers. Yes there are worse things going on in the world, but casual exploitation of minors still shouldn't be accepted. Casts a shadow on everyone involved with it and it's promotion, team managers, casters, fansites.
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There's not enough money in sc to go around but it doesn't excuse players for fixing games.
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On May 22 2010 00:57 InFdude wrote: But without Kespa we'd have what we have in other countries --> nothing .
Er Progaming in Korea was around before Kespa was...
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Perhaps Blizzard is correct in denying KeSPA's claims and thereby forcing a change into the future of pro-gaming; the scene will explode internationally (no longer limited to Korea) and create better environments for the players.
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Right now the major problem with video games is that they simply don't last. The popular video game of the day changes from year to year and the fanbase doesn't always carry over to each game. Pro-gamers are more often than not, not actually "pro-gamers", but "pro-Starcraft players" or "pro-Counterstrike players". Because they are highly specialized and there's no guarantee that their skills will fully carry over into the next games (even if they're of the same genre), you really don't have too many lasting stars in this sport. Since everything about pro-gaming in general from the actual games played to the stars and teams are so temporary, it's nearly impossible to build the type of fanbase and infrastructure that would be required to turn it into a decent life pursuit for people.
For most of these corporations, pro-gaming is not a long-term investment because of its volatile nature and there's relatively little money to be made in it after costs. Do you think massive amounts of people would pay tickets to go watch pro-gaming matches? Do you think there's a huge market for pro-gaming memorabilia? There really isn't. If you look at the Korean pro-gaming scene, which is probably the most established scene in the world at the moment, where do you see the actual profits coming from? The sources of profit are pretty limited. Korean pro-gaming survives right now BECAUSE costs are kept to a minimum as they are.
Also, no matter how you look at it, the gaming community is not a professional culture. It's a culture of youth and it's seen primarily as a source of personal entertainment rather than a meaningful pursuit. This perception needs to change before pro-gaming can really rise to some level of real professionalism and status. Unfortunately, I highly doubt it will happen.
Considering the fact that even an established sport like baseball has minor leaguers really getting crap for their work, how much more can you possibly expect from a sport where even the top level isn't really established?
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Thank you for this article! I'm very interested in some outside perspective on progaming. I hope this incident shines light on gaming in Korea. What my heart tells me is that there will be a small tremor of debate -- mostly negative, about the gamers -- and it will just go on as it always has. For me the saddest and most memorable line of the article was that adults profit from the broken dreams and slavery of the next generation. How sad.
Thanks again.
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Thanks for the translation. After reading the comments it seems most people realize this is a completely unfair situation for the gamers, but some of the other attitudes seem to be based in pure naivety. People saying things like KeSPA doesn't make any money off the games, and that the gamers don't provide a service to society are purely ignorant of how this thing actually works.
It's an advertising agency. Those who work for advertising agencies earn some of the highest salaries of anyone traditionally, because the service they provide is recognition and it is invaluable to all businesses. There's a reason companies pay a designer millions to make a simple logo. There's a reason they pay millions to have that logo on a big board on the side of a highway. And there is definitely a reason they've created progaming and continue to fund it. It isn't because they enjoy destroying lives and watching people suffer, it isn't because their CEOs are big fans of StarCraft (at least not purely, I won't say they aren't!), it's because it's worth it to their business to have their name out there. That's why it's called sponsorship. Sponsor. AKA advertiser.
They are making huge bank off of the whole thing, or they wouldn't be doing it at all. They want to keep costs down because they're a business, and the more profit the better, but make NO mistake, they ARE making money, and LOTS of it, and progaming is a model that would most certainly still work if gamers were treated and paid better, although it might not support as many as it does now, especially the "B team" players. But, as usual in history, the businesses will not do the right thing by themselves and their will have to be some sort of outside force if anything is to change.
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Thanks for the translation.
This might actually be one of the reasons why Blizzard wants so many rights in their negotiations with kespa, because they have the power to change something about this. It would be pretty bad publicity if it gets revealed that Blizzard knowingly supports kespa at "supressing" their progamers
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On May 21 2010 19:29 paulinepain wrote: This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure. How do you figure that? Savior was getting paid the most of any progamer, this system is unfair (if you wish to call it that) to people on the bottom, since their compensation is very limited.
Again, supply and demand, the people on the bottom aren't good enough for televised appearances yet, and are also easily replaced. They work hard to hopefully make it to the A-teams (where they will get more money). Savior has no way to not feel guilty here, he was one of the most well known, best paid players in the game. He was just greedy.
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Haven't we had this conversation before? They do it for the love of the game. They're living their fantasy of making a little money while they play a game they enjoy. This is more of a cultural phenomena more than anything else. The teams and sponsors really don't make anything other than publicity. It is a cultural investment they wish to keep.
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On May 22 2010 05:40 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 19:29 paulinepain wrote: This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure. How do you figure that? Savior was getting paid the most of any progamer, this system is unfair (if you wish to call it that) to people on the bottom, since their compensation is very limited. Again, supply and demand, the people on the bottom aren't good enough for televised appearances yet, and are also easily replaced. They work hard to hopefully make it to the A-teams (where they will get more money). Savior has no way to not feel guilty here, he was one of the most well known, best paid players in the game. He was just greedy.
It has nothing to do with being most famous and best pay. I said sAviOr i could have said this noob of Luxury as well and if it was a guy that earn nothing it would be the same. The environment shape the behavior, not the opposite. You cannot really blame somebody to be greedy in a greedy environment, it's stupid. The entire system is guilty, not just the one that have been busted, one time. Think about all the things we don't know and that is going on right now, I'm sure you can find corruption at all level if you really look for it, because of money and competition. Nobody is clean.
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Can't wait to help any boycott.
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On May 22 2010 13:23 paulinepain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 05:40 moopie wrote:On May 21 2010 19:29 paulinepain wrote: This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure. How do you figure that? Savior was getting paid the most of any progamer, this system is unfair (if you wish to call it that) to people on the bottom, since their compensation is very limited. Again, supply and demand, the people on the bottom aren't good enough for televised appearances yet, and are also easily replaced. They work hard to hopefully make it to the A-teams (where they will get more money). Savior has no way to not feel guilty here, he was one of the most well known, best paid players in the game. He was just greedy. It has nothing to do with being most famous and best pay. I said sAviOr i could have said this noob of Luxury as well and if it was a guy that earn nothing it would be the same. The environment shape the behavior, not the opposite. You cannot really blame somebody to be greedy in a greedy environment, it's stupid. The entire system is guilty, not just the one that have been busted, one time. Think about all the things we don't know and that is going on right now, I'm sure you can find corruption at all level if you really look for it, because of money and competition. Nobody is clean.
to be honest, it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that savior did nothing wrong.
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On May 22 2010 14:57 Subwoofermate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 13:23 paulinepain wrote:On May 22 2010 05:40 moopie wrote:On May 21 2010 19:29 paulinepain wrote: This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure. How do you figure that? Savior was getting paid the most of any progamer, this system is unfair (if you wish to call it that) to people on the bottom, since their compensation is very limited. Again, supply and demand, the people on the bottom aren't good enough for televised appearances yet, and are also easily replaced. They work hard to hopefully make it to the A-teams (where they will get more money). Savior has no way to not feel guilty here, he was one of the most well known, best paid players in the game. He was just greedy. It has nothing to do with being most famous and best pay. I said sAviOr i could have said this noob of Luxury as well and if it was a guy that earn nothing it would be the same. The environment shape the behavior, not the opposite. You cannot really blame somebody to be greedy in a greedy environment, it's stupid. The entire system is guilty, not just the one that have been busted, one time. Think about all the things we don't know and that is going on right now, I'm sure you can find corruption at all level if you really look for it, because of money and competition. Nobody is clean. to be honest, it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that savior did nothing wrong.
Truly not, I never believed in personal responsibility and guilt. Outdated social values that just lead to nowhere.
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Big translation Big thank you
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Good read l10f for president :D
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On May 21 2010 13:06 Draconizard wrote: Attempting to form a stable career in any entertainment industry is never easy. Too often, the general populace only sees those few who make it to the top, ignoring the innumerable failures those few passed along the way.
soooooo well said 100% agree
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Enveloping read. It's great to get insight on both sides of the story. I really wish progamers had a better living condition or at least were treated with some sort of living expenses.
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Thanks for the translation l10f, really appreciate your time and effort put in to this. An interesting article and worth the read.
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i am always so jealous of people that are able to accurately translate articles. Great job l10f
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Really good article, a must read for everyone involved with progaming
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On May 19 2010 23:00 Bill307 wrote: Thanks for the translation.
This situation sounds similar to -- but far more extreme than -- the situation with game developers in North America.
In both cases, you have a large number of youths or young adults who want to be a progamer or make games, respectively. As a result, the companies hiring these people can treat them like dirt and still have an unending supply of naive people willing to take it up the rear just for the chance to have their "dream" job.
Part of the problem is this never-ending supply of people who are willing to work under these conditions. If not for them, the average game developer and SC progamer would actually be treated as important assets. But you can't change this behaviour. There are always going to be jobs that lots of people want but only a few people can have.
Now I don't know what the best solutions for these problems are. But hopefully the progaming situation changes soon, because it's ridiculous right now.
Maybe Blizzard having more involvement in korean e-sports will be a good thing. They wouldn't want to support labour conditions like these. For one thing, it'd probably hurt their image more than the "sponsors" (notice not a single sponsor is mentioned by name in the article). But more importantly, Blizzard is an actual game company composed largely of people who actually care to see their game and e-sports in general grow into something awesome, not a mess like this. In contrast, do you think Joe Worker or Joe Manager working for one of the KeSPA sponsors cares about a bunch of nerds playing video games, or about his company's involvement in this debacle? Not so much.
Blizzard has long become part of the "corporate beast," and Battle.net 2.0 is simply a taste of this. I don't think Blizzard can "save" pro-gaming, nor do I think Blizzard will ever be able to take the reins of e-Sports, not with the way they're treating competition, in any case ("everyone wins.")
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Best interview ive seen in soooo many time. Really insightful.
Congrats for the translation.
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thanks for the translation! life is tough for a B-teamer.......
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This also makes me question why in most matches you are disqualified for talking in text somewhat
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Great article, lots of good info.
Wonder if I'll get flamed if I say progamming is over-glorified in this thread too ^^
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When we see injustice like this, the horrible living conditions of these players, our natural instinct is to fix it. And for most people, that means the first impulse is the use of coercive force - rules, regulations - to bring about the desired result. Somebody needs to force these big corporations to pay attention to the rights and entitlements of the players.
However, such impulses to "fix" what we see as injustice ignore the bigger picture. You can't consider the living conditions of the players in isolation. If you ask a random programer if it would be good if the living conditions improved, he would surely agree. If you tell him that the direct consequence of that would be that he couldn't be a progamer anymore, I think few progamers would still be in favor.
If you want to do something about this, you need to look at the bigger picture. Why are the living conditions of progamers so bad? And the answer is the law of supply and demand. Wanna-be progamers are in high demand and supply of available spots is limited. So the price of - the reward for - a progamer is very low.
Why do so many people want to become a progamer? What is so awful about ordinary life? Perhaps the ridiculous school hours in Korea play a role here. Maybe we need to put minimum wage into effect for those hours too.
Solving problems like these isn't as simple as just creating a law to get the result you want.
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I don't know Korean labor right, but probably players could sue Kespa and their team and win quite easily. They would definitly if such thing was happening in France or in England.
Saying that it's not labour is bullshit, no tribunal would buy that. Theses guys should have right, proper salaries, and unions to defend them.
People who are so hyped about becoming progamer and so happy when some good player makes it to Korea make me laugh. This is a shit job, with shit conditions, with no future whatsoever, and which bring absolutely nothing except a little bit of e-fame, unless your name is Flash, Jaedong or Boxer.
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Makes me have even more respect for the progamers - feels like they are like chinafarmers in MMOs.
I can't believe the people who are forcing them to do this. Sometimes I'm happy I'm not as talented as them...
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Wow, ball bouncers i nthe US make millions, progamers who work as hard and are as big celebrities in their country as the ball players are in the US make 1/10th to 1/100th as much. Some don't make anything. Even the bench warmers/practice partners make more than the top progamers. Sad.
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Very nice article thanks for posting, one thing ive been wondering and hope someone can enlighten me is how big is the E-Sports industry in korea, specifically starcraft? i don't think you can really say how much the players should be making without first knowing how much money they collectively bring in.
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Wow! great article. i guess being a progamer in korea is worse than being a chinese goldfarmer in world of warcraft! unless you are flash or jaedong
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Key line: ...and a member of the progressive political party Take this into account when reading this article, IMO.
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Thanks for the excellent article.
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Thanks for the translation! I've been aware of this ever since I got into eSports when I was a competitive CS 1.6 and semi-WC3/SC player. Sadly, there are so many people in the world who still believe the whole "Korean progamers are treated like rock stars while making 6 digit salaries!" What they do not know is that those are only the top ranked players who manage to win MSL/OSL titles.
I'll admit that one point in my life (around 8th grade - freshmen year) I wanted to be a progamer in either CS or WC3 (I Played SC since I was in 6th grade, but it was mainly money maps and I didn't appreciate the game until later on), but then I realized that it was nothing but a dream since I've heard stories of CS 1.6 pros dropping out of high school (I.E. ShaGuar) to play a game and getting paid very little. They eventually retired from the game and no one has heard from them since, but only few remain to be apart of the scene whether they are a team manager or commentator.
I think that all inspiring players should read this article and rethink if all the time they have put into the game is worth it or not. I'm not trying to tell people to stop playing because I respect other peoples' choices. It's best to rethink the plan because you absolutely regret it.
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What I'm curious about are the salaries of commentators in particular. The comments in this thread hinted at OGN and MBC raking in the vast majority of the profits (lol "profits"). Are those earnings redistributed in some way for the commentators?
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Guess the people calling KespA "the voice of the players" or "the good guys" can stfu up
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On May 24 2010 16:02 Phrujbaz wrote: Why do so many people want to become a progamer? What is so awful about ordinary life? Perhaps the ridiculous school hours in Korea play a role here. Maybe we need to put minimum wage into effect for those hours too. Why do so many people want to lead an ordinary life... What's so awful in being a PROGAMER?
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i remember seeing pictures of someones visit to a team house. had like 4-6+ bunk beds in a room. its really a different image now that i read this article. and its quite sad that only a few reap the rewards and some many others get shafted.
a players union wouldve been great, but now its probably too little too late
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Wow. Thanks for the translation. Certainly some food for thought about the SK scene.
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Wow, I didn't know Blizzard wasn't cooperating with kespa. I'm starting to think Blizzard isn't the company it once was.
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On May 26 2010 03:00 hejakev wrote: Wow, I didn't know Blizzard wasn't cooperating with kespa. I'm starting to think Blizzard isn't the company it once was. sounds more like kespa isnt cooperating with blizzard
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hejakev, Simple nailed it on the head. Blizzard has been in talks with Kespa forever without the slighest change from Kespa, they've had enough. Even though there are NFL teams and that's what the fans are watching, the NFL is still making a large sum of money since it's there league. Blizzard created the game and should ultimately have some say.
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"The adults are making profits out of the children's passion."
You can basically sum everything up with that line. Videogame industry has always been like that. And sadly, I don't think it will ever change. But I have hopes that somewhere in the future someone like Boxer or any of the other known pros lead some kind of "revolution" and refuse to live under those conditions, so law is changed in some way that allows them to lead normal lives.
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Despite this excellent article, there will still be people defending KeSPA and belittling this article. LOL. Even Boxer hinting at the problem is not enough to convince some people.
Corporations are in it to keep eSports alive? Hahahahahahah.. CORPORATIONS ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY! Money can come in many forms. It doesn't need direct sales such as tickets. If Starcraft progaming TV cease to exist next week, it wouldn't matter at all. Why? Because there is a demand for Starcraft. If OSL, MSL suddenly died, it wouldn't matter. There will be other leagues that will take its place. KeSPA cease to exist tomorrow? Again, no problem.
Anyone ever notice how most of all E-Stro players look like crap, as though they have not slept for months? Progamers do not have to be treated as slaves inorder for eSports to be successful. It's only the corporations telling people that. If progaming was to reboot with better conditions for their players, eSports will not die. Why should it when there is a healthy demand for it. And for the corporation saying "players are better off being young for talent," it is basically saying "we don't want our players worrying about a life, military service, and university degree." Corporations don't want their players doing anything that isn't related to programing. They do not want players old enough to think for themselves.
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What a sad article. I figured this must be something like how it works, but hopefully Blizzard can do something with GomTV and turn things around, if Blizzard doesn't want it to reflect on them. After all, if they want to suddenly have control, that means they have some responsibility.
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