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rei
United States3594 Posts
On May 04 2010 08:01 Liquid`NonY wrote: If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that." Where's the evidence on that 70+ hours a week ???? Personal experience??  | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On May 04 2010 08:02 Lightwip wrote: I highly doubt this is a moral thing. Money is not moral, or else slavery would never have been popular. It doesn't have to be moral. It can just be about Blizzard's image and that's purely a financial concern. Anyway, the royalties/fees part is obviously a financial thing. But reserving the right to control the whole operation isn't necessarily a financial thing (though yes, I guess I can never disprove that in the end, no matter how indirectly, it all comes back to money). It could be Blizzard just wants to run things according to the business culture of their company. Ethics and culture (the companies' cultures, not necessarily American/Korean cultures) could play a huge role. Morals isn't it though. Definitely ethics. Anyway, for the vast majority of tournaments, I think it'll just be Blizzard's esports team giving a good look and making sure everything is legit and then just saying OK go run your tournament. | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
kespa doesnt want to give any ground, but i cant help but see them fail | ||
KwarK
United States42533 Posts
On May 04 2010 08:05 XsebT wrote: I wish ESPORTS would be more like any other sport... for example, when you buy a Nike football, racket or whatever, it isn't up to Nike to decide what you do with their product - You actually own that specific product. For this to work of course, Blizzard shouldn't be the ones who provide the servers for their product, just like Nike doesn't provide the soccer field and thus aren't in control of what's happening on that field. You may argue, that there's an obvious difference between a football and a Starcraft. But I believe that's only because Blizzard, unfortunally, are allowed total control of the possessions you have bought from them. This is obviously because Blizzard, like any other company, much more interested in your money than ESPORTS in general. Not to say they don't care about ESPORTS at all though. Tennis racket is to the game tennis as keyboard is to the game starcraft. When you buy a keyboard they don't demand the rights to everything you do with it. Whereas a completely new game is invented, designed, coded, balanced, funded and sustained by Blizzard. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
If Blizzard takes over the management of Korean e-sports, they're going to use it to promote their games first and the development of e-sports itself second. What if, for example, Blizzard decided to stop all Korean StarCraft tournaments when SC2 came out? It might be good for their latest release, but it spontaneously pull the rug out from under the biggest e-sports league in the world. What would that mean for their future? That it's not worthwhile to really dedicate yourself to a game because the tournaments might just end? That television stations and players associations and sponsors can't create long-lasting financial roots in a game before its developer pulls the plug? These things simply can't be allowed to happen. Part of why Korean StarCraft is so big is because everyone involved saw the long-term financial potential and wanted to invest. Video game developers don't like to think of their games as long term prospects unless they're virtually printing money like World of WarCraft. On the other hand, I can see why Blizzard would want money for the use of their product. I have a feeling that, when it comes to this, KeSPA is probably trying to stiff them. It's their way. Like Wax said, international copyright lawyers will be the real deciding factor here. But the most fair solution to e-sports and all the parties involved would be for KeSPA (or some kind of other independent organization) to control e-sports, and for Blizzard to be compensated for what happens. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
The association promised Blizzard the continued marketing and promotional support of their products through the use of all our resources including players, teams and broadcasting, and constant investment including the obtainment of sponsorships, as well as expressing an interest in paying a reasonable usage fee for their products. However, Blizzard would have limited the usage period of a game to only one year (note: I have no idea what the heck this means), which would make it difficult to run a stable E-sports league. Kespa has basically agreed to a broadcasting fee, but Blizzard only wants to sell them the rights to broadcast for 1 year, after which I imagine they would have to renegotiate. Seeing as how brutal these negotiations are and how fickle both sides are apparently being, Kespa wants to lock in for a longer period I guess. I imagine this is one of the biggest sticking points since the threat of having your right to broadcast sc2 revoked after one year isn't really sustainable for a TV station, they definitely need a larger commitment than that. In addition, Blizzard requests that all aspects of league management would have be authorized by them beforehand, including the acquiring of sponsorships, marketing planning and broadcast planning. I think it's reasonable and within the rights of Blizzard to have a say in what brands and products are marketed alongside their intellectual property. I doubt for example they would want a competitor to one of their games sponsor a tournament. Furthermore, Blizzard made other unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder, such as royalties and sub-licensing fees on sponsorships and broadcasting fees, the right to audit KeSPA’s finances, as well as ownership of secondary content created through our unique resources in the teams, players, and broadcasting expertise. I think this is also within their rights to own content that is derived from their base work. It wouldn't exist without them. I don't think these are "beyond the rights of the copyright holder" like Kespa claims. Of course copyright law varies by country so it's difficult to say, and they aren't being specific about what kind of secondary content it is. My guess is it just comes down to dollars and cents at the end of the day, like almost everything in this world. We don't know what kind of royalty fees they are asking and things like that. Other than the 1 year broadcasting term, nothing to me seems absurd in their demands. | ||
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RageOverdose
United States690 Posts
When I was first reading this, I thought it sounded ridiculous for Blizzard to demand all that, but when some posters noted how it could be Blizzard just making sure the game isn't being used for things they don't want it associated with, then I kind of rescinded that thought, although it still sounds pretty powerful. I still stand that I think Blizzard should be compensated, but I can't really judge how reasonable their demands are being I have nowhere near a complete education in the field of business and economics, but it's a mixed bag. It's kind of just how you look at it. On one hand, it seems like Blizzard is just trying to get money and control the scene, but on the other hand, it could seem like they are trying to protect eSports or the integrity of the game and maybe even KeSPA. But it would be nice if more news like this popped up. Would shed some light on the negotiations. I guess it's kind of a hard issue to deal with to, as televised competition like this never seemed to have to deal with the minds behind the sport, so how it should be handled may not be clear as it's kind of an interesting and different situation in and of itself. Although that could be my ignorance talking. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
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yAak
United States10 Posts
On May 04 2010 07:55 Taku wrote: For those who just skimmed the article, this is the problem. As others mentioned, Blizzard basically wants to take over kespa if this is right. Also leaves very little face for kespa afterward since they basically would be taking it in the rear from blizzard at will if they agree, hence why blizzard's demands will never be accepted. And yeah from the whole gom-debacle, we've seen that kespa can be pretty ruthless in getting their way so we'll see. Pet Theory Warning: I am talking out of my ass here, no facts, just speculation -> This comment made me wonder if, at some point in the past several years, Blizzard realized that they no longer wish to truly negotiate with KeSPA. So they put out demands that, despite technically being within Blizzard's rights (?I don't know for sure), were unacceptable to KeSPA. So, KeSPA refuses as expected, knows they've been stuck in a corner, and do what they can to make Blizzard look bad. Blizzard, owning the IP and now supposedly free of KeSPA's involvement, moves forward however they can. Of course, we don't know what, if anything, Blizzard can arrange in Korea without KeSPA's blessing. Lastly, I really doubt either party is "blameless" here. | ||
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AncienTs
Japan227 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
On May 04 2010 08:09 DTDominion wrote: Even though KeSPA has made many poor decisions in the past, in this case their kind of right. If Blizzard takes over the management of Korean e-sports, they're going to use it to promote their games first and the development of e-sports itself second. What if, for example, Blizzard decided to stop all Korean StarCraft tournaments when SC2 came out? It might be good for their latest release, but it spontaneously pull the rug out from under the biggest e-sports league in the world. If KeSPA owned their own games, and they were good enough to get sponsors and have leagues, they would 100% support only their own games. In fact, haven't they already done this? Made copycat games? I'm sure one of our tl.net historians can tell us. | ||
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dew
United States59 Posts
Good. KeSPA deserves it. No, Blizzard's conditions, if Kespa's quote is accurate, are not reasonable. There are a lot of flat-out ridiculous demands in there, like the right to audit. However, KeSPA brought it on themselves, and now they're going to be left in the dust. The only question is if they'll just stand back and get left in the dust alone, or if they'll drag the entirety of South Korea down with them. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On May 04 2010 08:09 KwarK wrote: Tennis racket is to the game tennis as keyboard is to the game starcraft. When you buy a keyboard they don't demand the rights to everything you do with it. Whereas a completely new game is invented, designed, coded, balanced, funded and sustained by Blizzard. Yeah, that was quite a stupid part in my argumentation, but you get my point. I would much rather pay more for my product(SC) for Blizzard not to be in control of my product. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On May 04 2010 07:55 Taku wrote: For those who just skimmed the article, this is the problem. As others mentioned, Blizzard basically wants to take over kespa if this is right. Also leaves very little face for kespa afterward since they basically would be taking it in the rear from blizzard at will if they agree, hence why blizzard's demands will never be accepted. And yeah from the whole gom-debacle, we've seen that kespa can be pretty ruthless in getting their way so we'll see. No this is called a license to use their software in the real world. It's not a takeover and they are asking for royalties and a few other items in compensation on a per year basis. KeSPA doesn't want to open their books for whatever reasons each year and be honest about how well or poorly they are doing. It's not Blizzard's problem that KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms of the license and now all of a sudden KeSPA feels all the "hard work" they have done without a license has put them in a position of getting screwed. Maybe if they bought a clue with all the money they've made without a license a few years ago they wouldn't be in the boat they are in and I'd sympathize. | ||
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bearbuddy
3442 Posts
Blizzard employee vs KeSPA referee bo7, GO! | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On May 04 2010 08:18 bearbuddy wrote: There's only one way to settle this... Blizzard employee vs KeSPA referee bo7, GO! David Kim... nuf said. | ||
rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
That asshole of a judge Chang Suk Joon that DQ'd leta for typing pp used to be a progamer, if it were SC1 bo7 i have a feeling david kim would get creamed | ||
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broz0rs
United States2294 Posts
To use an analogy, the way I see it is that Blizzard is similar to the role of a sports agent. The sport agents spends about a few days brokering a deal for their athlete client, that agent will make 10-20% of all the revenue generating activities of the athlete during the lifetime of the relationship. The athlete will train, play in front of fans, shoot commercials, deal with injury, while the agent sits in the office reading about new athletes on ESPN.com and collect those 10% cuts from all his clients. Why can't Blizzard have a similar cut for the product that they created? But that's really not even the issue. Blizzard is concerned about its intellectual rights that it allowed a company to use, but that company may have not kept up their end of the bargain. There's nothing wrong with a company wanting to audit a partnering company's financials. Almost every profitable company in the world gets audited. I work for an auditing firm in the U.S and the whole purpose of my job is to make sure the company is running a proper business so that other companies would feel secure dealing with it. If Kespa is maintaining a legit operation, they shouldn't have to worry about hiding anything, right? Lastly, Kespa is making itself seem as if it is a victim. E-sports is a multi-million dollar business in Korea. Granted, Blizzard is a multi-billion dollar corporation, but to make it seem as if it was a victim that it is being bullied around is ridiculous. If they can't respect Blizzard's product, they should go ahead and broadcast more Dungeon Fighter Online matches. I don't mind seeing Starcraft 2 with teamless single player tourneys on GOMTV. | ||
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JohnColtrane
Australia4813 Posts
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praetor.at
Austria92 Posts
i mean they do have to invest, aquire sponsors (hey we have this league, ye really great, sadly its only fixed for one year now, we cannot say what will happen after this - lol?) etc etc. you need some planning that goes longer than 1 year to do that successfully. €: what i wanted to say; this point on its own is just not acceptable, blizz needs to give them better options, shouldnt be to difficult, like: 1year, can be extended to same conditions for another year, if we release expansion pack your contract is converted to that, the old one expires... | ||
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