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5003 Posts
No, that sentence is ambiguous at worst. "Quite wrong" is wrong.
The "Unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder" refers to the latter half, after the "In addition to this, one step beyond". They divided the terms blizzard stated quite coherently, one BEFORE the "goes one step beyond" comment (where the royalties remark was), and a few after, regarding ownership/audit rights.
You purposely put "Royalties" after the "one step beyond" to make your point, it seems. That's quite a wrong translation, you purposely redivided what KeSPA had divided as what was the "first set of demands" and the "second set of demands" that they believed went one step beyond what was copyright laws.
So, your translation is wrong. Simple as that. I dont think there's much ambiguity.
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United States33584 Posts
On May 04 2010 08:46 Milkis wrote:The "Unreasonable requests beyond the rights of the copyright holder" refers to the latter half, after the "In addition to this, one step beyond". They divided the terms blizzard stated quite coherently, one BEFORE the "goes one step beyond" comment (where the royalties remark was), and a few after, regarding ownership/audit rights. You purposely put "Royalties" after the "one step beyond" to make your point, it seems. That's quite a wrong translation, you purposely redivided what KeSPA had divided as what was the "first set of demands" and the "second set of demands" that they believed went one step beyond what was copyright laws. So, your translation is wrong. Simple as that. I dont think there's much ambiguity.
PMs since spamming the forum with korean is silly
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this is probably the preposition to the climax that would be the issues created by SC2.
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i think blizzard is just throwing up a smoke screen and hoping that kespa will cave in or give up. if blizzard was serious about their IP, they would go to court like they always do.
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On May 04 2010 08:42 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 08:25 QibingZero wrote:On May 04 2010 08:06 redtooth wrote:On May 04 2010 07:56 Lightwip wrote:On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote:
i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner. Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running. they almost killed proleague. they did kill one of the 3 individual leagues. they almost forced the superstar player of the time (the Dong) to retire. did they really "keep E-sports" running? i think ESPORTS was fine before i heard of kespa. lol does forcing individuals to type exactly "gg" keep ESPORTS running? gespa. I don't even understand why posts like this exist. Do you even have any remote idea of what you're talking about? Esports might have been fine before you heard of KeSPA, but - and I know this is going to come as a surprise to you - reality still exists even if you aren't aware of it. There were no Esports pre-KeSPA. The same movers behind KeSPA itself were the ones who started the scene (and basically Esports itself) in the first place. The Korean SC scene is still by and large the only true 'success' Esports have had. A very select few WC3 and CS players making okay money is the only remote argument - and neither of those is anywhere near as sustainable as SC in Korea is. Everyone is so willing to see SC die, it seems. There's this notion that SC2 will replace it, but in reality I still enjoy SC as much as I did when I started consistently watching pro games 5 years ago, and 5 years before that when the game was still fresh on everyone's minds. There's nothing preventing the game from lasting as long as Go, chess, etc... because with community involvement, it is that good of a game. On May 04 2010 08:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote:
I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do. I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that." It's this kind of rhetoric that drives these discussions way out of hand. Blizzard is the white knight, caring so much about making a great game for the fans and all of that and just wanting a piece of their pie; while KeSPA is the corrupt Asian sweatshop owner which keeps people as slaves. And we hold this attitude why? Because Blizzard does things here and there to please the fans (read: get you to buy their next product as well)? I'd like to think that someone as intelligent as you could see through this, Nony.. Sorry I'm not trying to use rhetoric to convince people to take one side or the other. But all bias aside, it is perfectly reasonable to think that Blizzard cares about business ethics. Senx was asking why Blizzard isn't satisfied with just the royalties -- why do they also want control? Yeah, control is definitely, at least, for financial reasons too. But it could also be for Blizzard to take responsibility for their products. Anyway, my example is a fact and it's not distorted. I'm sure Blizzard is aware of it and I'm sure they know that if they directly profit from KeSPA's operation then they are responsible for it as well.
I'll take your word for it as far as your example goes (seeing as you do have some firsthand experience I'm sure), but I still find the idea of Blizzard being at all honest in the same regard to be a bit suspect. I too think it's reasonable that blizzard cares about business ethics, but only to the point where making money meets illegality. I should only have to mention 'Vivendi' to make things clear on that...
As far as control over the eSport goes, I think it's been too many years wherein Blizzard didn't take responsibility for their product to believe they legitimately care about it now. It's much more reasonable that they're using SC2's potential success as weight in all this. The problem is, Korean eSports as a whole aren't exactly as gung-ho about SC2 as the foreign community is.
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On May 04 2010 08:49 hystorm wrote:
i think blizzard is just throwing up a smoke screen and hoping that kespa will cave in or give up. if blizzard was serious about their IP, they would go to court like they always do.
Except that they know they would lose.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On May 04 2010 08:49 hystorm wrote:
i think blizzard is just throwing up a smoke screen and hoping that kespa will cave in or give up. if blizzard was serious about their IP, they would go to court like they always do.
EXACTLY.
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Could you use an analogy of what came first the game of american football or the NFL?
Esports or Starcraft?
I don't think were paying the guy who invented an american football any royalties for every game being played other than what the football costs.
Thats how I see it anyways - I guess it might be out of line when considering a video game.
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Seems to me that KeSPA are the good guys for once. Not only because they say so, but because Blizzard is getting crazier every day. Some guys said or implied that you basically can't go wrong trusting Blizzard. Imho the exact opposite is the case.
Considering Blizzard's development over the last few years, or more accurately, since the release of WoW, trusting Blizzard is as wrong as you can go. They have changed from a trustworthy company with the players' interests at heart to a company interested in nothing but money, power/influence/control & milking their loyal customers.
If there's one thing that's 100% for sure, it's that if Blizzard does something - anything - you can bet your ass it's all about making money. I'm with KeSPA on this one. GTFO Blizzard and milk someone else. Or even better, stop milking people at all, cause seriously guys, you're making enough money as it is.
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Funny how KeSPA tried to soften the fact that they refused to pay Blizzard a penny by saying they offered Blizzard promotional and marketing opportunities. How the fuck would that be a valid offer? KeSPA existence totally relies on Blizzard's products and even if Blizzard didn't have that "offer" from KeSPA, they would still receive the spotlight anyway as they were fucking playing Blizzard's games!
You can't just use your dependence on someone as a promotional offer to them, it's just too stupid to even say it outloud.
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On May 04 2010 08:42 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 08:25 QibingZero wrote:On May 04 2010 08:06 redtooth wrote:On May 04 2010 07:56 Lightwip wrote:On May 04 2010 07:46 redtooth wrote:
i'm actually surprised at the number of people taking kespa's side. just try to remember a time you've heard kespa's name associated with a positive act? they are just a bunch of greedy bureaucratic idiots who are trying their best to stay alive with SC2 looming around the corner. Of course they have plenty of flaws, but the one thing they did right is actually keep E-sports running. they almost killed proleague. they did kill one of the 3 individual leagues. they almost forced the superstar player of the time (the Dong) to retire. did they really "keep E-sports" running? i think ESPORTS was fine before i heard of kespa. lol does forcing individuals to type exactly "gg" keep ESPORTS running? gespa. I don't even understand why posts like this exist. Do you even have any remote idea of what you're talking about? Esports might have been fine before you heard of KeSPA, but - and I know this is going to come as a surprise to you - reality still exists even if you aren't aware of it. There were no Esports pre-KeSPA. The same movers behind KeSPA itself were the ones who started the scene (and basically Esports itself) in the first place. The Korean SC scene is still by and large the only true 'success' Esports have had. A very select few WC3 and CS players making okay money is the only remote argument - and neither of those is anywhere near as sustainable as SC in Korea is. Everyone is so willing to see SC die, it seems. There's this notion that SC2 will replace it, but in reality I still enjoy SC as much as I did when I started consistently watching pro games 5 years ago, and 5 years before that when the game was still fresh on everyone's minds. There's nothing preventing the game from lasting as long as Go, chess, etc... because with community involvement, it is that good of a game. On May 04 2010 08:01 Liquid`NonY wrote:On May 04 2010 07:47 Senx wrote:
I agree, royalties is FINE, but let them create the surrounding scene on their own, don't control their every action like Blizzard seems to be wanting to do. I don't think they want to control every action but they do want to have the final say on things. If KeSPA wants to have minors working 70+ hours a week in order for e-Sports to succeed then Blizzard wants to be able to say "No, you're not going to use my game for an industry like that." It's this kind of rhetoric that drives these discussions way out of hand. Blizzard is the white knight, caring so much about making a great game for the fans and all of that and just wanting a piece of their pie; while KeSPA is the corrupt Asian sweatshop owner which keeps people as slaves. And we hold this attitude why? Because Blizzard does things here and there to please the fans (read: get you to buy their next product as well)? I'd like to think that someone as intelligent as you could see through this, Nony.. Sorry I'm not trying to use rhetoric to convince people to take one side or the other. But all bias aside, it is perfectly reasonable to think that Blizzard cares about business ethics. Senx was asking why Blizzard isn't satisfied with just the royalties -- why do they also want control? Yeah, control is definitely, at least, for financial reasons too. But it could also be for Blizzard to take responsibility for their products. Anyway, my example is a fact and it's not distorted. I'm sure Blizzard is aware of it and I'm sure they know that if they directly profit from KeSPA's operation then they are responsible for it as well.
*disclaimer: I rarely post about things like this*
When you say that they don't want to be responsible for child labor it makes sense. Also explains why they decided to push the issue till now because back then pro gamers were older than they are now. This kind of reminds me of the argument of how violent games such as CounterStrike cause kids to be more violent. Some people have said that playing FPS gives kids thoughts about killing or whatever. But you don't see companies caring about that at all.
However Blizzard could very much care about how things are in Korea (and they probably do, I consider Blizzard to be unique compared to other gaming companies. After all didn't they release some person's info about some drug guy or killer that was playing WoW to the cops?) The question is, and really only Blizzard can answer this, is it about the money or is it more of how E-Sports is running and Korea and other stuff not pertaining to money?
*edit
Doesn't holding tournaments usually end up about getting some sort of profit? What's the difference between a tourney and like proleague stuff? (To me proleague is basically an elongated tournament)
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If it is indeed the case that according to Korean law Blizzard cannot claim secondary content then Blizzard's demands have indeed been unreasonable. If this goes to court Blizzard has no chance to win.
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Wait, can someone point out if the other game developers get money for their having their games used in broadcasts - Tekken, cs wannabe, war3?
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On May 04 2010 08:56 Mooncat wrote:
Seems to me that KeSPA are the good guys for once. Not only because they say so, but because Blizzard is getting crazier every day. Some guys said or implied that you basically can't go wrong trusting Blizzard. Imho the exact opposite is the case. It seems like people forget that Blizzard is no longer the small studio it was 20 years ago, it's now part of the uber conglomerate activision, who I suspect has a part in blizzard's difficult negotiations.
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On May 04 2010 07:34 rotinegg wrote:
i don't know who's side of the story to believe
its kespa
they even used the press release to try and spin that selling broadcast rights bullshit positively
kespa is bad for the fans and bad for the players. The only people it supports are company sponsors.
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On May 04 2010 08:29 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 08:16 Baarn wrote:
No this is called a license to use their software in the real world. It's not a takeover and they are asking for royalties and a few other items in compensation on a per year basis. KeSPA doesn't want to open their books for whatever reasons each year and be honest about how well or poorly they are doing.
It's not Blizzard's problem that KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms of the license and now all of a sudden KeSPA feels all the "hard work" they have done without a license has put them in a position of getting screwed. Maybe if they bought a clue with all the money they've made without a license a few years ago they wouldn't be in the boat they are in and I'd sympathize. Errr, its not the royalties thats the problem, even kespa would likely find it not too unreasonable for blizzard to want to collect royalties of a reasonable amount. The problem is giving blizzard decision-making power on the way things are run in Korean esports. With essentially veto-power over every single aspect of the way kespa does things in regards to starcraft, Blizzard would be taking over kespa in a way. Main thing IMO though is the way things are being done. It isn't giving kespa any sort of movement space or way to back down gracefully. And, as many people know, people in East Asia don't particularly like losing face in that way, or at all. At this rate its virtually guaranteed that no agreement will be found unless any one of the two or both sides eat some humble pie and act reasonably. Kespa can either live with it or in a final act poison it so SC2 will never succeed as an esport as a final act of revenge. People need to remember that American business practices and manners aren't completely the same in Korea. Just my thoughts.
I still don't see the "takeover" part after reading this. Blizzard just wants to know who they are getting in bed with. It's sorta important to know who the investor's are or that guy that smuggles guns but needs a shelter to turn the money into something more legit. It's a partnership at the end of the day. I don't see anything shady coming from Blizzard but KeSPA sure acts like they have stuff to hide.
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On May 04 2010 09:01 iloahz wrote:
If it is indeed the case that according to Korean law Blizzard cannot claim secondary content then Blizzard's demands have indeed been unreasonable. If this goes to court Blizzard has no chance to win.
Blizzard doesn't have to go to court. There isn't a LAN feature. So KeSPA would have to modify the game to be able to continue their operations cause nobody cares about broodbore. If they did that then Blizzard would definitely have the upper hand with TRIPS laws in international court.
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On May 04 2010 07:47 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I think it seems reasonable that Kespa pay blizzard. It kind of seems like they are just trying to benefit from blizzard's hard work for free. Which is ridiculous..
And from a legal standpoint, I don't see how kespa can really do anything.
Yo, we have the same name.
Anyway, I think that Blizzard just wants to take up the position of Kespa in general, that's the only way they'll make any money off of the 6 year development journey of SC 2. Personally, I'm fine with the idea because the developer involvement will mean a better over-all game for all it's users, and the competitive scene. They've already tried to ensure this by having 2 more expansions, but being in charge of the competitive scene is the best way.
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On May 04 2010 09:07 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 08:29 Taku wrote:On May 04 2010 08:16 Baarn wrote:
No this is called a license to use their software in the real world. It's not a takeover and they are asking for royalties and a few other items in compensation on a per year basis. KeSPA doesn't want to open their books for whatever reasons each year and be honest about how well or poorly they are doing.
It's not Blizzard's problem that KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms of the license and now all of a sudden KeSPA feels all the "hard work" they have done without a license has put them in a position of getting screwed. Maybe if they bought a clue with all the money they've made without a license a few years ago they wouldn't be in the boat they are in and I'd sympathize. Errr, its not the royalties thats the problem, even kespa would likely find it not too unreasonable for blizzard to want to collect royalties of a reasonable amount. The problem is giving blizzard decision-making power on the way things are run in Korean esports. With essentially veto-power over every single aspect of the way kespa does things in regards to starcraft, Blizzard would be taking over kespa in a way. Main thing IMO though is the way things are being done. It isn't giving kespa any sort of movement space or way to back down gracefully. And, as many people know, people in East Asia don't particularly like losing face in that way, or at all. At this rate its virtually guaranteed that no agreement will be found unless any one of the two or both sides eat some humble pie and act reasonably. Kespa can either live with it or in a final act poison it so SC2 will never succeed as an esport as a final act of revenge. People need to remember that American business practices and manners aren't completely the same in Korea. Just my thoughts. I still don't see the "takeover" part after reading this. Blizzard just wants to know who they are getting in bed with. It's sorta important to know who the investor's are or that guy that smuggles guns but needs a shelter to turn the money into something more legit. It's a partnership at the end of the day. I don't see anything shady coming from Blizzard but KeSPA sure acts like they have stuff to hide.
Agreed! I think a lot of the counter arguments here though are coming from people who don't follow the Capitalistic nature of American ventures, and as such are arguing from their own points of view. From an American PoV, everything Blizzard is doing is basically what any huge company would due prior to a massive 'engagement' of this level because it becomes responsible for the actions of it's partner.
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On May 04 2010 09:10 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 09:01 iloahz wrote:
If it is indeed the case that according to Korean law Blizzard cannot claim secondary content then Blizzard's demands have indeed been unreasonable. If this goes to court Blizzard has no chance to win. Blizzard doesn't have to go to court. There isn't a LAN feature. So KeSPA would have to modify the game to be able to continue their operations cause nobody cares about broodbore. If they did that then Blizzard would definitely have the upper hand with TRIPS laws in international court.
You want to act qualified enough to comment on an issue as in-depth and heated as this, and yet you say 'nobody cares about broodbore'? Are you trolling or just clueless?
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EPT
