EPTIf there is a market for esports someone will take the opportunity. Kespa may of taken the risk earlier on but that doesn't give them rights to someone elses intellectual property. They are actually extraordinary lucky that blizzard hasn't collected royalties from the beginning.
Blizzard to cease negotiations with KeSPA - Page 8
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Medzo
United States627 Posts
If there is a market for esports someone will take the opportunity. Kespa may of taken the risk earlier on but that doesn't give them rights to someone elses intellectual property. They are actually extraordinary lucky that blizzard hasn't collected royalties from the beginning. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On April 25 2010 14:52 Milkis wrote: "Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive" Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get. What an awful analogy you've come up with. Basketball was thought up by a P.E. teacher trying to give his students something to do, and profit never factored into its creation. Starcraft was produced by a software development company looking to capitalize on the financial success of Warcraft. Blizzard has copyrighted Starcraft, and every match overseen by KeSPA is played on a completely unadulterated copy of their software. If Dr. Naismith were revived, and he tried to claim compensation from leagues profiting off "his" game, he would be laughed at by the judicial system. Naismith's game used a closed peach basket, a soccer ball, 18 players on the court (9 versus 9), no shot clock, no backboard, no foul limit, no goaltending, and many other differences. The only real similarity is that the player tries to aim a ball at a certain location. Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
KeSPA is established in 2000 under the authority of Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism. from here.... KeSPA is made up of 11 executive committee member-enterprises including SK Telecom. SK Telecom has been served as the Chief Executive since 2008. Under the leadership of Mr Seo Jin-woo, the head of SK Telecom GMS as well as the Chief Executive of KeSPA So first things first, it's established with connections to the government, and the organization is basically composed of COMPANIES. The Chief Executive of KeSPA is the head of a division from SK Telecom, a member of the SK Group (one of the major sponsors - sponsoring the team T1, the Nate MSL, and more). So this establishes its relationship with the government as well as the fact that the organization is basically composed of companies, including the major sponsors. The organization structure of KeSPA can be seen here. This shows that an entire chunk of KeSPA is devoted to "management of governmental cooperative affairs" and "management of relationships with government & regional state bodies", which shows that KeSPA is still working with the government to this day. Finally, in part of their gallery, there is this. "Meeting with MJ Jung, the Chairperson of the Supreme Council of the grand National Party" So KeSPA is still continuing to build political links. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
I love it. Kespa had no reason to be so cocky. Now its time to sit on a dick, Kespa. I look forward to seeing Blizzard's new partner. Kespa is toast. If Kespa is going to be too stubborn to let their power fade, someone is gonna take it all. SEE YA KESPA | ||
Milkis
5003 Posts
Blizzard deserves no compensation from a company making profits off their IP that Blizzard spent millions creating. Right. Try arguing that with any copyright lawyer. And laws are different in Korea, apparently. Kespa didn't create the market for esports. They capitalized on it. Starcraft was a huge success because starcraft was fun. Kespa came after starcraft was already popular. The only thing Kespa did was keep it popular. SC2 isn't gaining much from Kespa advertising its games. SC2 is going to be big because starcraft 1 was already popular and a good game back in 1999. Every game blizzard releases makes them an even bigger success. Warcraft 2 got a alot of attention. Diablo 1 got a lot of more attention. Starcraft got a ton of attention (enough to were there was a market for Kespa to run off). Diablo 2 got so much attention that for the next 5 years companies kept trying to produce a "diablo killer." Warcraft 3 got a ton of attention as well (even though you might dislike it). And finally world of warcraft, need I even say anything? I'm pretty damn sure there are people like me who only got interested in SC after seeing televised games and people talking about it. Saying that "SC2 isn't gaining much from Kespa advertising its games" (or the rest of your post) is a pretty myopic viewpoint. Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine. The analogy was an extreme one made simply to make a point. It's silly to attack the analogy but not talk about the point. To respond to your "Blizzard spent a ton of manhours", I'll argue that it was the progamers and the organizers who spent even more manhours playing the game and making the game a success beyond any other game. It is them who deserve it, not Blizzard, who already got their dues by selling the game, which was pretty much the only thing they thought of doing when they first made the game. Sure, Blizzard made it a success, but it is the progamers and the organizers that made Starcraft a level beyond a "success". | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
On April 25 2010 16:07 city42 wrote: What an awful analogy you've come up with. Basketball was thought up by a P.E. teacher trying to give his students something to do, and profit never factored into its creation. Starcraft was produced by a software development company looking to capitalize on the financial success of Warcraft. Blizzard has copyrighted Starcraft, and every match overseen by KeSPA is played on a completely unadulterated copy of their software. If Dr. Naismith were revived, and he tried to claim compensation from leagues profiting off "his" game, he would be laughed at by the judicial system. Naismith's game used a closed peach basket, a soccer ball, 18 players on the court (9 versus 9), no shot clock, no backboard, no foul limit, no goaltending, and many other differences. The only real similarity is that the player tries to aim a ball at a certain location. Starcraft is an elaborate set of code, images, videos, and sounds. It took many man-hours to create, and these man-hours were paid for in full by Blizzard Entertainment. Basketball, as thought up by Dr. Naismith, was a hastily developed game designed to keep school kids active indoors during Massachusetts winters. Suggesting that Blizzard and Naismith are equal claimants to intellectual property is absolutely asinine. Have you seen the maps Blizzard thought we should be playing competitive Starcraft on? | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Jaester88
United States143 Posts
On April 25 2010 16:14 Milkis wrote: And laws are different in Korea, apparently. I'm pretty damn sure there are people like me who only got interested in SC after seeing televised games and people talking about it. Saying that "SC2 isn't gaining much from Kespa advertising its games" (or the rest of your post) is a pretty myopic viewpoint. The analogy was an extreme one made simply to make a point. It's silly to attack the analogy but not talk about the point. To respond to your "Blizzard spent a ton of manhours", I'll argue that it was the progamers and the organizers who spent even more manhours playing the game and making the game a success beyond any other game. It is them who deserve it, not Blizzard, who already got their dues by selling the game, which was pretty much the only thing they thought of doing when they first made the game. Sure, Blizzard made it a success, but it is the progamers and the organizers that made Starcraft a level beyond a "success". Deserves compensation? Maybe not. Has a right to ask for compensation (for SC2)? I think so. You're right, if we were talking about Blizzard trying to get in their share of compensation for BW, then they would have little to no right to ask for it. But as far as I know, that's not what Blizzard is trying to do. They're trying to set up an e-sports scene with SC2 that resembles the one that KeSPA has been running for some time now. To use your own analogy, if the guy who invented basketball invented a similar sport based on basketball, let's call it bball2, does he not have a right to try and run a business with it in a similar way that NBA has been running it? Just because basketball is the basis for bball2, does that automatically make bball2 NBA's right to run it? The guy who invented bball2 has his bargaining rights, and NBA also has its own bargaining rights. Similarly with the current situation. To say that Blizzard has no rights to ask for compensation is a little too extreme, I think. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On April 25 2010 16:14 QibingZero wrote: Have you seen the maps Blizzard thought we should be playing competitive Starcraft on? What the hell does that have to do with anything? I feel like you said something completely irrelevant on purpose to get me going. The point is, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. KeSPA has completely ignored and circumvented several sections of the EULA, which is agreed to whenever Starcraft is installed on any computer used at a KeSPA-sanctioned event. For example: 2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. 3. Responsibilities of End User. ... C. You are entitled to use the Program for your own use, but you are not entitled to: ... (ii) exploit the Program or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a cyber cafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. Blizzard may offer a separate Site License Agreement to permit you to make the Program available for commercial use; contact Blizzard for details; 9. Equitable Remedies. You hereby agree that Blizzard would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this License Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Blizzard shall be entitled, without bond, other security, or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Blizzard may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws. I think Blizzard has been very generous to turn a blind eye to these blatant and overt violations of the EULA in the past. If you want to say that South Korea and the KeSPA organization were instrumental in popularizing Starcraft, and may lead to increased Starcraft II sales, that's fine. However, that does not mean Blizzard has to waive the rights to its product. They simply want total control over Starcraft II and its "e-sport scene," and even if it is morally wrong, they are completely within their rights to do so. | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
Deserves compensation? Maybe not. Has a right to ask for compensation (for SC2)? I think so. You're right, if we were talking about Blizzard trying to get in their share of compensation for BW, then they would have little to no right to ask for it. But as far as I know, that's not what Blizzard is trying to do. They're trying to set up an e-sports scene with SC2 that resembles the one that KeSPA has been running for some time now. I believe that Blizzard may be being unreasonable in their terms when dealing with KeSPA, with my reasoning based on the fact that no firm would commit suicide that easily. I don't think they have a right to ask for compensation for SC2 unless they are heavily involved in the ESports themselves. A winwin contract would be Blizzard helping out flying SC2 on the runway (ie, sponsor many tournaments, etc etc) and then Blizzard getting a share for their investment. From what I can tell, Blizzard is attempting to use KeSPA's resources (ie, organized teams, proplayers, connections), and if that's the case, Blizzard should be paying KeSPA if they want a return on it. I'm willing to bet that this isn't the case with terms that were offered to KeSPA. | ||
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Jaester88
United States143 Posts
On April 25 2010 16:34 Milkis wrote: I believe that Blizzard may be being unreasonable in their terms when dealing with KeSPA, with my reasoning based on the fact that no firm would commit suicide that easily. I don't think they have a right to ask for compensation for SC2 unless they are heavily involved in the ESports themselves. A winwin contract would be Blizzard helping out flying SC2 on the runway (ie, sponsor many tournaments, etc etc) and then Blizzard getting a share for their investment. From what I can tell, Blizzard is attempting to use KeSPA's resources (ie, organized teams, proplayers, connections), and if that's the case, Blizzard should be paying KeSPA if they want a return on it. I'm willing to bet that this isn't the case with terms that were offered to KeSPA. Yes, I completely agree. If Blizzard is not going to be involved at all in the e-sports scene of SC2, then they deserve no compensation. I was under the impression that Blizzard was going to be involved in the SC2 e-sports scene itself. In that regard, we both agree then. | ||
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DatTheMighty
Vietnam122 Posts
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Zona
40426 Posts
Most other competitive sports developed when the core game was not owned by anyone, or at least not someone trying to extract all of the benefit for themselves. It takes many parties, each bringing their own expertise, in order to foster an environment where a game can become popular enough to support a fanbase that is large and valuable enough so that sponsors are willing to give away money in return for promotion of whatever they want to promote. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On April 25 2010 16:32 city42 wrote: What the hell does that have to do with anything? I feel like you said something completely irrelevant on purpose to get me going. The point is, Starcraft belongs to Blizzard. KeSPA has completely ignored and circumvented several sections of the EULA, which is agreed to whenever Starcraft is installed on any computer used at a KeSPA-sanctioned event. For example: I think Blizzard has been very generous to turn a blind eye to these blatant and overt violations of the EULA in the past. If you want to say that South Korea and the KeSPA organization were instrumental in popularizing Starcraft, and may lead to increased Starcraft II sales, that's fine. However, that does not mean Blizzard has to waive the rights to its product. They simply want total control over Starcraft II and its "e-sport scene," and even if it is morally wrong, they are completely within their rights to do so. Even in North America, what appears in the EULA isn't always legal. There have been many incidents where things in EULAs have been challenged in court and struck down. And of course, in other countries, especially protective ones like South Korea, things will probably be even less favorable for Blizzard. | ||
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quietrio
United States21 Posts
So, I am posting it over here. enjoy. ![[image loading]](http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1272/kespa.jpg) | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
1) First and foremost to the posters from the United States, do not assume that Korean courts will side with Blizzard. Too many US posters in this thread have a very shallow understanding of Asian business and politics. Doing business in Asia is not as transparent as the US and because of the government connections Kespa has, there is no guarantee the Korean courts will side with Blizzard concerning the copyright issues. I wouldn't be surprised if the Korean courts ruled in favor of Kespa, because of Kespa's and Kespa's member's influence on the Korean government. The Korean government will protect its own organizations and not foreign organizations. As proof of this, look at how long it took Apple to get IPhone to Korea - there was simply too much resistance from the Korean mobile phone manufacturers against Apple. 2) If you missed the hidden message from Blizzard, this is Blizzard's response to the adult rating given to SC2. For those who believed that the Korean government's rating of SC2 had nothing to do with Kespa, think again. Kespa influenced the Korean government to give SC2 an adult rating and in turn, Blizzard is retaliating by cutting off all relations with Kespa. 3) For those who believe Blizzard and us ESports fan have nothing to lose, again you are wrong. You cannot duplicate Kespa's infrastructure setup, Kespa's relations with MBC and OGN, and Kespa's relations with the media in one easy step. Don't forget that Kespa has influence over the government, the media, and Korean e-sports scene. If Blizzard tries to push SC2 as an Esport on GOMTV, it could very well fail if Kespa is fighting Blizzard every step of the way. At the end of the day, not only can the SC1 E-Sports scene implode, but SC2 as an E-Sport may never take off for the same reasons. This is very sad news. Both Blizzard and Kespa are jeapordizing the future of E-Sports. What I find the most discouraging are posters who believe that SC2 may take off as an E-Sport outside of Korea - there is no proof of that. In fact, there has been no successful E-Sports league that pays its players like SC1 in Korea for all video games world wide (Counterstrike is a joke) besides Korea - to assume that SC2 can establish a successful pro-league outside Korea is simply foolish. The best way for professional E-Sports to continue to gain traction is for a smooth transition from the Korean pro leagues from SC1 to SC2. Unfortunately, with the bickering between Blizzard and Kespa, this may not happen. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On April 25 2010 15:53 PanzerDragoon wrote: Blizzard deserves no compensation from a company making profits off their IP that Blizzard spent millions creating. Right. Try arguing that with any copyright lawyer. A copyright lawyer in the United States. Seriously, why are some US posters so dense on this issue? Don't assume that Korean courts will decide on issues in the same way as US courts. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On April 25 2010 16:42 Zona wrote: Even in North America, what appears in the EULA isn't always legal. There have been many incidents where things in EULAs have been challenged in court and struck down. And of course, in other countries, especially protective ones like South Korea, things will probably be even less favorable for Blizzard. You're absolutely right about the second part. I would say that the Starcraft EULA's legality is pretty well established in the U.S., though. Section 3 was instrumental in the Blizzard vs. bnetd case, which Blizzard won. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On April 25 2010 16:44 quietrio wrote: I saw a funny cartoon about the current sitautation between blizzard and Kespa in the Korean Starcraft2 community. So, I am posting it over here. enjoy. I think a more accurate story for the comic is if Blizzard owned the plot of land, and K built the house/tree/fence on top of it. B still owns the property in the end and it seems perfectly reasonable to charge rent for its usage. I suppose it doesn't matter though, if the general Korean population doesn't share this view. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On April 25 2010 15:02 scintilliaSD wrote: It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that. ROFL, what tournaments? Name one SC2 tournament that pays $40K for first place (nevermind the prize money for 2nd, 3rd place, etc) and has thousands of live fans watching in a huge auditorium with significant media coverage and sponsors. THERE ARE NONE. | ||
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