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On April 25 2010 15:02 scintilliaSD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 14:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:58 scintilliaSD wrote:On April 25 2010 14:50 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:48 scintilliaSD wrote:On April 25 2010 14:47 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:46 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote:
Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor. You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role? Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment? The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives. Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies. The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans. Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age. The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999. you're confused xO it's not gonna start up again from 1999. it'll get busted back to 99 and stay there. KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
But these are just random online tournaments, what about live events at venues? I doubt that will ever happen in america, if it does, it will so small scale that there won't be money to be made.
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On April 25 2010 14:39 Jaester88 wrote:
Also, another thing: do we have any kind of knowledge to the content of the negotiations at all? Is there any kind of evidence at all that KeSPA is the one being difficult in the negotiations? Maybe it's Blizzard that's being preposterously unreasonable?
If there have been previous threads/articles that have shown that KeSPA was the one being unreasonable in negotiations, it would be much appreciated if someone could link the thread/article for me. Thanks.
To be honest, it's more that the air around here has always had an anti-KeSPA sentiment. There are good reasons for this (such as how progamer free agency is handled), but in this case I think it's a little bit much. I would suspect that Blizzard are the ones being unreasonable, attempting to come back and claim royalties on a game they more or less gave up on so many years ago.
These are harsh words, but they need to be said. KeSPA has done far more for the advancement of BW as both a competitive game and an esport than Blizzard has. The community seems to have somehow lost a sense of how much maps played a part in game balance, how bad 99% of the official maps were, and how many years it took to get to the level we're at currently. KeSPA does deserve a large amount of the credit for both directly balancing things, and for creating enough interest in the sport so that the fuel can keep burning. It's more of an insult to the sport than anything when Blizzard steps up and complains they're not getting what they want out of it, years after someone else has made it into what it is today.
And to be honest, this isn't even touching the legal aspect of how IP rights are handled in different countries, which is a whole clusterfuck I'm sure most people don't want to even think about.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 25 2010 14:52 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse. Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible. Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful. But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them. "Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive" Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
1. Intellectual property is intellectual property. The license terms have to be respected. If Kespa wants to use Blizzard's IP as the basis for their league, then it is up to them to reach an agreement with Blizzard.
2. Blizzard's games speak for themselves. Very few people (especially outside of Korea) cared about SC. It has been about WoW for the last 4 years, and Kespa has nothing to do with its success. It is debatable how much of an effect the current Korean pro SC scene will have on Blizzard's SC2 sales and profits. How many casual gamers (i.e. the majority of the buyers of any game) care about or are even aware of the Korean pro SC scene?
I'd be interested in new leagues where the teams and players enjoy more independence from the organizing committee.
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United States2822 Posts
On April 25 2010 15:07 Megalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 15:02 scintilliaSD wrote:On April 25 2010 14:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:58 scintilliaSD wrote:On April 25 2010 14:50 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:48 scintilliaSD wrote:On April 25 2010 14:47 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:46 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote:
Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor. You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role? Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment? The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives. Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies. The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans. Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age. The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999. you're confused xO it's not gonna start up again from 1999. it'll get busted back to 99 and stay there. KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that. But these are just random online tournaments, what about live events at venues? I doubt that will ever happen in america, if it does, it will so small scale that there won't be money to be made.
Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does.
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On April 25 2010 15:02 scintilliaSD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 14:59 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:58 scintilliaSD wrote:On April 25 2010 14:50 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:48 scintilliaSD wrote:On April 25 2010 14:47 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 14:46 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote:
Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor. You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role? Who's gonna pony up the money to sponsor all the proteams? Their lodging? Food? Equipment? The teams pay for the players. The companies sponsor the proteams. KeSPA has nothing to do with the teams or the players' personal lives. Kespa is these companies, pal. It's a board of reps from all these companies. The only reason I see these big corps sponsoring esports is cus it's born and bred by koreans. Sure there'll be a very minor contigent that'll go against the trend and work with Blizzard, in which case esports will roll back to the 1999 stone age. The same 1999 Stone Age that has gotten us thousands of dollars worth of tournaments for a game that hasn't even been released yet? I wanna know where you lived in 1999. you're confused xO it's not gonna start up again from 1999. it'll get busted back to 99 and stay there. KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
Yeah, success of the SC 1 has no influence on the success of SC II.... Most of the posters here are spectators of Proleague/Starleague rather than serious players. You're joking if you think BW would have gotten big without KESPA.
Still makes you wonder how blizzard plans to introduce progaming in NA/EU, I just can't imagine it ever being streamed on live TV.
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On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote:
Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does.
people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space.
and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan.
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I think ultimately the success or failure of the SC2 pro scene will depend on the pro players.
If Kespa refuses to negotiate fairly with Blizzard, then Blizzard may block them from using SC1 or SC2 for tournaments.
Once that happens either Blizzard, or a Blizzard-friendly organization could invite current pro-players to tournaments that ARE supported by Blizzard and have huge prize pools. So if Flash, Stork, Jaedong etc ... decide to play in those tournaments for huge payouts it won't really matter that Kespa is kept out of it.
Koreans and the rest of the world want to see the PLAYERS. They don't care about Kespa or politics or IP. They want to see amazing players doing amazing things while commentators yell PLAYGUUUUUUUE!
Edit: Also consider that Kespa essentially banned its players from competing in Blizzard sponsored tournaments (GOMtv). They only did that so that they could control the entirety of the Starcraft scene and make huge amounts of money doing it.
Kespa made bank for years and Blizzard allowed them to do it freely. Now they are trying to BLOCK Blizzard from sponsoring tournaments!!! WTF Kespa!
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United States2822 Posts
On April 25 2010 15:13 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote:
Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does. people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space. and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan.
Do you honestly think that everyone in charge of Samsung is in cahoots with KeSPA? Why would they do any game besides Starcraft, Special Force, Sudden Attack, Chaos Clan Battle at all in WCG then? You're making zero sense.
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On April 25 2010 15:14 Zuchinni_one wrote:
I think ultimately the success or failure of the SC2 pro scene will depend on the pro players.
If Kespa refuses to negotiate fairly with Blizzard, then Blizzard may block them from using SC1 or SC2 for tournaments.
Once that happens either Blizzard, or a Blizzard-friendly organization could invite current pro-players to tournaments that ARE supported by Blizzard and have huge prize pools. So if Flash, Stork, Jaedong etc ... decide to play in those tournaments for huge payouts it won't really matter that Kespa is kept out of it.
Koreans and the rest of the world want to see the PLAYERS. They don't care about Kespa or politics or IP. They want to see amazing players doing amazing things while commentators yell PLAYGUUUUUUUE!
lol
shining example of someone who still doesn't get it
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On April 25 2010 15:08 QibingZero wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 14:39 Jaester88 wrote:
Also, another thing: do we have any kind of knowledge to the content of the negotiations at all? Is there any kind of evidence at all that KeSPA is the one being difficult in the negotiations? Maybe it's Blizzard that's being preposterously unreasonable?
If there have been previous threads/articles that have shown that KeSPA was the one being unreasonable in negotiations, it would be much appreciated if someone could link the thread/article for me. Thanks. To be honest, it's more that the air around here has always had an anti-KeSPA sentiment. There are good reasons for this (such as how progamer free agency is handled), but in this case I think it's a little bit much. I would suspect that Blizzard are the ones being unreasonable, attempting to come back and claim royalties on a game they more or less gave up on so many years ago.
I'm fully aware of the anti-KeSPA sentiment, and I'd gladly join the hate-on-KeSPA bandwagon if there's any basis for it because they've made some seriously retarded decisions in the recent past. I was just wondering maybe there was evidence that I've been missing because that would really help form my thoughts on this matter.
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On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.
... without KeSPA Korean BW would be a game enjoyed by millions of players with no guarantee of structural support for a professional league, without Blizzard Korean BW would literally be nothing. You really want to take that side of the argument?
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konadora
Singapore66071 Posts
On April 25 2010 14:52 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +Blizzard isn't stopping them. They just want fair compensation since Kespa makes huge profit off their work. Kespa is stingy so they refuse. Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible. Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful. But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them. "Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive" Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get.
Excellent post here.
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On April 25 2010 15:15 scintilliaSD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 15:13 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote:
Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does. people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space. and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan. Do you honestly think that everyone in charge of Samsung is in cahoots with KeSPA? Why would they do any game besides Starcraft, Special Force, Sudden Attack, Chaos Clan Battle at all in WCG then? You're making zero sense.
why would samsung, a korean company, having invested so much already, allow itself to be ousted, and then continue to sponsor the events for *from their perspective* foreign entity who unseated them in korea to help them make korean money?
are you seriously thinking it through?
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Actually GomTV has become blizzard favor company few years ago, and they made huge success without help of KeSPA.
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5003 Posts
KeSPA has nothing to do with the current eSports success of SC2. Them continuing to have nothing to do with it will affect absolutely no one but the Koreans. The Korean Starcraft scene has done what it needed to do - show the eSports viability of the Starcraft franchise. It's Blizzard's job to continue the viability into Starcraft 2 and judging by the tournaments that have come up, it doesn't need Korea or KeSPA to do that.
1. Intellectual property is intellectual property. The license terms have to be respected. If Kespa wants to use Blizzard's IP as the basis for their league, then it is up to them to reach an agreement with Blizzard.
And that'll just mean Kespa doesnt pick up SC2, and will continue simply with SC1. This means simply just means that SC2 wont get as big as SC1, which is no big deal, in the long run. But remember what blizzard is trying to do -- they want SC2 to replace SC1.
This pretty much means Blizzard has failed to accomplish what they wanted to do. No matter how good SC2 is, this is a negative signal on the company, and simply states that SC1's success wasn't replicated. To us who keep up with this stuff, we know better, but to the masses, this means a lot. "Why is there a SC1 proscene but not a SC2 proscene?" That question will speak for itself.
Blizzard NEEDS KeSPA (to make SC2 successful) and KeSPA NEEDS Blizzard. In fact, KeSPA needs blizzard more than blizzard needs KeSPA, and simply KeSPA rejecting Blizzard's terms tells you miles about how likely the terms offered to KeSPA was unreasonable.
Enforcing IP on this matter will lead to an inefficient outcome -- Blizzard loses advertising and reputation, KeSPA will just milk SC1 until it dies.
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United States2822 Posts
On April 25 2010 15:17 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 15:15 scintilliaSD wrote:On April 25 2010 15:13 .risingdragoon wrote:On April 25 2010 15:09 scintilliaSD wrote:
Blizzard doesn't make any money off of venues that exist in Korea now either.
I just think it's more silly to think that the eSports industry is magically going to collapse on itself and fail miserably because of one country's refusal to participate than it is to think that the eSports industry will blossom because of a good game and an international community that cares about its success.
There are established eSports organizations outside of Korea that are lending their support to SC2 in its early stages and they care about its success as much as anyone else does. people already covered this: blizzard doesn't make money directly. but they made money by selling millions of SC and pro bono promotion for sc2, guaranteed firehouse sales through the roof and into space. and what established esports org outside of korea? WCG? They're sponsored by samsung, as in samsung khan. Do you honestly think that everyone in charge of Samsung is in cahoots with KeSPA? Why would they do any game besides Starcraft, Special Force, Sudden Attack, Chaos Clan Battle at all in WCG then? You're making zero sense. why would samsung, a korean company, having invested so much already, allow itself to be ousted, and then continue to sponsor the events by *from their perspective* foreign entity in korea to make korean money? are you seriously thinking it through?
Businesses don't do what they do for some convoluted sense of national pride. They do what they do for money. If Samsung sees money in the foreign eSports scene over the Korean eSports scene, why would they not put money into it? Why did Coca-Cola and Pringles, two American companies, invest money into a (then almost non-existent) Starcraft tournament in Korea? They saw potential for advertising their product so they did it.
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On April 25 2010 15:16 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 15:14 Zuchinni_one wrote:
I think ultimately the success or failure of the SC2 pro scene will depend on the pro players.
If Kespa refuses to negotiate fairly with Blizzard, then Blizzard may block them from using SC1 or SC2 for tournaments.
Once that happens either Blizzard, or a Blizzard-friendly organization could invite current pro-players to tournaments that ARE supported by Blizzard and have huge prize pools. So if Flash, Stork, Jaedong etc ... decide to play in those tournaments for huge payouts it won't really matter that Kespa is kept out of it.
Koreans and the rest of the world want to see the PLAYERS. They don't care about Kespa or politics or IP. They want to see amazing players doing amazing things while commentators yell PLAYGUUUUUUUE! lol shining example of someone who still doesn't get it
I'd love if you would elaborate on that ...
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So if everyone is in agreement that KeSPA would be nothing without starcraft and starcraft would be nothing without KeSPA then why are we still arguing?
How do we even know the blizzard is trying to take a share of the MONEY? What are the odds that they just want THE e-sports organization to come aboard for starcraft II?
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BRING BACK SDM AND TASTELESS FOR GSL!!!!
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United States13896 Posts
On April 25 2010 14:46 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 14:10 p4NDemik wrote:
Blizzard may have the intellectual rights to the game but KeSPA has the money and the government in Korea backing them. Ultimately those are the two most important things, and without them SC2 will be severely stunted without some kind of KeSPA/Blizzard agreement.
I understand the reasoning behind Blizzard's decision but ultimately they do need KeSPA if they're going to build a successful scene in Korea. This is a big blow to the scene developing in Korea, but nowhere near fatal. Even though the release of the WoL is growing nearer this game will still be in development for years, leaving plenty of time for renewed negotiations. Eventually Blizzard will have to play ball here, no matter how unfair that game will be in KeSPA's favor. You don't think a Blizzard-friendly organization would emerge to fill KeSPA's role?
Sure there will be. Most here foster hope that a competitive SC2 scene will equal if not surpass BW's success in Korea and I'm saying the most likely avenue to get to that point is through KeSPA. Could a non-KeSPA backed SC2 scene reach that point? I'm not going to absolutely 100% rule it out, but I don't believe it's what we as fans should be crossing our fingers for.
I don't like KeSPA any more than most other people here, just seems like they could most likely be a necessary evil for the growth of a thriving SC2 scene.
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EPT
