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BeJe77
United States377 Posts
SC is a property of Blizzard, every nation has laws pertaining to intellectual property otherwise we' would not have companies selling products in different nations if they knew their products would not be safe. It just comes down to the fact that KesPa is making money off another companies product without compensating that company. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7878 Posts
Without esport and Kespa, Starcraft would have been forgotten and 1- They would have sold much much less copies of Starcraft 2- Starcraft 2 wouldn't be so hyped and so awaited. Kespa is doing a huuuuuuge publicity to Blizzard, and I find perfectly normal that the money Blizzard get is by selling their games and not by Tv right or whatever. Blizzard is the fattest and most lucrative video game company ever and now they want to shut down theses tournaments and association because they don't get extra money on top of selling 6 times more copies of the game than if the whole thing didn't exist? That's gross. I started to dislike Blizzard, independantly of the awesome quality of their games, the day I saw the price of a WoW month. I call that racket. The only good thing is that SC1 tournaments will probably carry on and that the pro scene will not turn immediately to SC2. I still don't see Starcraft 2 being nearly as good as BW and I don't want to learn a new game. | ||
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BeJe77
United States377 Posts
Again you are missing the point, it is their intellectual property, a company that did not develop it is making money off it without paying royalty fees to the developer company. Something almost every company/event makers do when they wish to use somebody else's property. The only unreasonable people being here are those of you who are calling Blizzard greedy and high horsing KesPA | ||
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Phaze6
Belgium6 Posts
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Scorch
Austria3371 Posts
Does anyone know how big public interest in SC2 is in Korea? SC2's influence can definitely be observed in the foreign scene, is it the same in Korea? | ||
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Ruff
Kazakhstan179 Posts
StarCraft: Brood War is KeSPA & Old Blizzard! | ||
Milkis
5003 Posts
Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all. http://www.thegames.co.kr/main/newsview.php?category=201&subcategory=1&id=142824 Key points >>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다. The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles >>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다. Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them. >>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다 The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product. >>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다. Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!) >>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다. Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2 >>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다. Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard >>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다. On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft. >>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다. Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues". >>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다. A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team" (As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to) >>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다. (Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.) >>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. (Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm)) (AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) --- So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP! Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard! | ||
Waxangel
United States33309 Posts
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
Just as someone previously said, this only strengthens their position of negotiation, basically saying "fine, we don't need you. Who else wants to make an offer?" Considering the numeral .. scandals regarding kespa lately, I'm fine with seeing the structure change. That is, so long as the BW scene doesn't crash with it, which of course would be terrible. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
haha oh wow. first and foremost, kespa has done nothing noble for blizzard. kespa set out to make money and did so by broadcasting matches of a well designed and entertaining game. secondly, i want you to consider the amount of money that kespa is making by broadcasting starcraft games. they literally have TV channels that broadcast them every single day. do you think blizzard is so incompetent that they could not use a fraction of that profit on an effective marketing campaign and achieve the same level of hype? the average gamer outside of korea probably has no idea about the sc progaming scene while a majority of gamers in the world know who blizzard are. blizzard is a force to be reckoned with and that didn't occur just because kespa decided to broadcast SC. for people who are saying kespa can't be replaced, the entire notion of that is simply absurd. if a company or conglomerate or whatever the hell kespa is can hand out $40k checks on a regular basis, organize huge tournaments matches, and virtually run TV stations dedicated to a video game, they aren't doing so out of the kindness of their heart. i'd imagine the starting capital needed to start something like progaming in korea would be near negligible since the market already exists. you need what? two computers, casters, audio / video stuff, and a station who will broadcast it. sure, it's oversimplified but the point is unless OGN / MBC are part of kespa (and even if they are i don't think they are willing to risk their livelihood and go down with the ship), they don't actually do anything some other committee couldn't do competently. the impression i'm getting from this thread is that kespa is simply a union of companies who have a stake in the progaming scene. they wouldn't have a stake if it weren't profitable and if it's profitable someone will replace them. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On April 25 2010 17:01 StarcraftMan wrote: A copyright lawyer in the United States. Seriously, why are some US posters so dense on this issue? Don't assume that Korean courts will decide on issues in the same way as US courts. It's insulting to korean judges to say they will automatically side with whatever the business/government wants. They're respected professionals, not stupid puppets. I think it's much more likely to say they will make a decision based on the (korean) law. If there's a sound reason why korean law would does not back intellectual property, then maybe the courts will side with Kespa. If there isn't, they're not going to magically make one up. Legal decisions aren't arbitrary opinions, down the road some foreign company use the decision to defend a similar action against a korean product. Does Blizzard deserve compensation? I have no idea. Does it have some claim to intellectual property? Seems reasonable, I can't really see around it. | ||
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opFa
Germany44 Posts
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
As mentioned above, imagine playing SC without iCCup. -_-;; Oh, although I don't know the complete set of rules and ToS and whatnot, but if it's similar to the small portions revealed above, I imagine Blizzard can claim that TL.net is theirs? Will we need Blizzard's permission to post reps and vods of SC (and SC2)? | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
On April 25 2010 14:52 Milkis wrote: Blizzard has their fair compensation -- the Korean Starcraft scene made starcraft extremely popular and more people are buying the games (or would have bought the games, if it wasn't for iccup). In addition, Starcraft created huge interests for Starcraft 2, which Blizzard is already planning on milking it out as much as possible. Blizzard deserves no compensation, for Starcraft OR Starcraft 2 -- it has already gotten them through all the free advertisement KeSPA did for their games. Even better -- KeSPA's success with E-Sports did a pretty damn good job boosting Blizzard's reputation in game making, something that isn't going to die anytime soon. They are getting everything already through KeSPA through advertisements. They simply need to deal with logistics better -- imagine if instead of battle.net they actually did something like iccup with antihack launchers. It would be even more successful. But nope. Now that they have gotten the free advertisement and the reputation as the "good guys who make good games", now they're going to bite the hand that feeds them. "Hey guys, I'm the creator of Basketball. Now that my game is popular I want you to pay me for broadcasting Basketball on TV. Oh, I'm also going to make the NCAA and NBA pay me for taking my game and making it a success and organizing nationwide tournaments and making it competitive" Anyone who says Blizzard "deserves" anything from KeSPA is horribly mistaken. KeSPA deserves every cent they get. I completely agree with this post. Even though kespa is taking blizzard's game to run professional tournaments, it's not like they're hurting blizzard's sales. In fact, they've probably made it ten times better. If you look at blizzard's maps/strategy guides/bnet1 etc you'd get a good idea of how SC would be without kespa. And I can't believe how 99% of the people just go "omg kespa is greedy as fuck and it's all their fault" when there wasn't even any evidence at all. Seriously, we all know kespa has been pretty stupid at times but this kind of prejudice is pretty stupid. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
Well... Blizzard made Kespa... so.. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable. Here's a pretty good article that summarizes the terms that KeSPA and Blizzard was dealing with. It's quite old, but I imagine the situation hasn't changed at all. http://www.thegames.co.kr/main/newsview.php?category=201&subcategory=1&id=142824 Key points >>블리자드의 배틀넷 통합계정 약관 가운데 e스포츠와 관련해 쟁점이 되고 있는 조항은 제 7조와 14조의 내용들이다. The articles in the Blizzard's BattleNet Terms of Agreement that has become a controversial point is the 7th and the 14th articles >>블리자드는 7조에서 게임 내의 대화 내용, 유저의 캐릭터 프로필까지 블리자드의 소유로 규정하고 이와 관련해 블리자드의 동의 없이는 어떤 2차 저작물도 제작할 수 없다고 규정하고 있다. Blizzard, in the 7th article, states that conversations within the game, to even user's characters profiles are the properties of Blizzard and without the consent of Blizzard, no one is allowed to create any secondary creation using them. >>7조 1항에 따르면 유저들은 블리자드가 만든 경기 대회 규칙 또는 팬 정책으로 정한 경우를 제외하고는 게임 또는 서비스를 기반으로 한 어떠한 저작물도 만들지 못한다 The 7th article 1st term states that, excluding Blizzard's contest/tournament rules, or other fan policies, users are not allowed to use the game or the service to create any sort of product. >>블리자드는 또 14조 4항을 통해 한국 e스포츠계와 협상해 온 중계권 문제도 정리해 놓았다. 이 조항에서 블리자드는 ‘방송, 전자 통신을 통한 일반 대중과의 통신, 전시, 수행, 컴퓨터 메모리로의 접속, 사용 및 이용할 권리’ 등을 자사가 소유한다고 밝히고 있다. Blizzard also used the 14th article 4th term to state their opinion on publishing rights that they were discussing with KeSPA. This term states that Blizzard owns the right to publish and use anything related to SC2. (lazy translation near the end but it's 3:19 AM!) >>이밖에 유저가 콘텐츠에 대해 가질 수 있는 모든 저작인격권을 포기할 것을 요구하고 있다. 이들 조항을 적용하면 ‘스타2’를 이용해 대회를 열거나 방송중계를 하는 것 모두 블리자드의 허락을 받지 않으면 불가능하게 된다. Other than these terms, Blizzard also demands that users need to abandon any authorship of anything regarding the contents. If these terms are applied, then blizzard's permission will be needed to hold a contest/tournament or air the matches on TV regarding Starcraft 2 >>블리자드는 그동안 ‘스타2’를 이용해 게임대회를 개최하거나 방송을 중계할 경우 자사의 허락을 받아야 할 뿐만 아니라 저작권료를 지불해야 한다고 주장해 왔다. Blizzard has been using Starcraft 2 to state that whenever a gaming tournament is held, or whenever matches are aired on TV, not only do users need to gain permission from blizzard, but also need to pay royalties to Blizzard >>반면 한국 e스포츠계는 대회나 방송중계 등은 저작권의 범위에 속하지 않는다며 기존 ‘스타크래프트’와 같은 방식으로 대회나 중계를 할 수 있도록 해 줄 것을 요청해 왔다. On the other hand, KeSPA stated that Tournaments and TV Airings do not fall under Blizzard's ownership and requested that Starcraft 2 could be held at a similar format as the original Starcraft. >>최원제 한국e스포츠협회 사무총장은 “블리자드가 계속 지재권을 주장한다면 방송사나 e스포츠 구단들이 ‘스타2’에 등을 돌리게 될 것”이라며 “국내 e스포츠는 블리자드가 만든 것이 아니라 방송사와 구단들이 만들어 온 것이기 때문”이라고 지적했다. Choi WonJae, the Secretary General (wtf) of KeSPA stated that "If Blizzard continues to push forth for ownership, then Broadcasting stations and ESports Leagues will turn their backs to SC2" and "Korea's Esports was not made by Blizzard but created by the Broadcasting Stations and the Leagues". >>e스포츠업계 한 관계자는 “지금의 e스포츠 구단들은 이익을 남기기 위해서가 아니라 사회에 공헌하기 위해 구단을 운영하는 경우가 대부분”이라며 “만약 블리자드가 e스포츠를 이용해 ‘스타2’ 판매를 극대화 하려 한다면 구단들이 팀 운영을 포기하는 사태도 벌어질 수 있다”고 경계했다. A personnel related to Esports stated that "Many of the Esports leagues do not operate to make a profit but to contribute to society" and that "If Blizzard uses ESports only to increase Starcraft 2 sales, there could be a tragedy where many supporting companies will give up on operating a team" (As a note there has been many hints that KeSPA does not have that much money in a few of the articles I've read, so this seems to be accurate, especially since iirc SC games are free to go to) >>-약관상에 언급된 저작권 부분과 ‘스타크래프트2’의 랜을 통한 멀티플레이 미지원을 조합하면 사실상 블리자드의 허락없이는 ‘스타크래프트2’를 통한 e스포츠대회를 개최할 수 없는 것인가. ▲블리자드코리아(이하 블리자드): 블리자드의 입장은 개발사로서 자사의 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. e스포츠에 대한 부분도 마찬가지다. ‘스타크래프트2’를 통해 토너먼트 대회를 진행하거나 방송 중계를 하기 위해서는 블리자드의 사전 동의나 협의가 필요하다. 동의나 협의 없이는 토너먼트 대회나 방송 중계를 할 수 없다. (Basically a Korean Blizzard Representative states that Blizzard removed LAN to limit eSports so that they need to get Blizzard's permission.) >>▲블리자드 : 블리자드는 모든 작품을 통합 계정을 통해 이용하도록 할 생각인 것은 맞다. ‘스타크래프트’ 역시 통합 계정을 이용해 배틀넷을 이용하게 될 것이다. 하지만 현재로서는 ‘스타크래프트’의 향후 계획에 대해 말할 수 있는 것이 없다. 기본 입장은 우리 작품에 대한 저작권을 보호하겠다는 것이다. (Even Starcraft will be held over Blizzard's Battlenet (but, the employee then states that he cannot talk about the issue atm)) (AKA: KeSPA needs to agree to Blizzard's term regarding Starcraft in addition to Starcraft 2) --- So, any wonders why KeSPA is disagreeing with Blizzard? Blizzard attempting to centralize eSports is probably going to kill it faster than anything else ever -- just imagine playing Starcraft without ICCUP! Simply put, I don't see any reasonable company agreeing to these terms, nor any Broadcasting Station. Good luck, Blizzard! How are those terms unreasonable? Blizzard wants permission when for-profit tournaments of their game are being held... so KeSPA can just ask for it... why would Blizzard refuse them? Blizzard also wants royalties if someone airs their game on TV, which seems entirely reasonable, depending on how much they're asking for. If some TV show played a music clip, they have to give royalties to the music label, etc. Obviously if Blizzard want a big chunk of the pie, it'd be dumb, but since the talks seem to be going "nowhere", it sounds like KeSPA has rejected the idea of royalties outright. | ||
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Mallard
United States129 Posts
I think it is important to remember that Starcraft came out in 1998. The internet was not as big and integrated into our lives as it is today, online gaming was not a big deal, and there was no community. It is not practical to think Blizzard could have foreseen how everything would be today. Now Blizzard can see the situation and they want to both be in control of and be paid for the use of its products. Blizzard created and owns SC2 and deserves that. It is silly to vilify them for that. Don't movie/tv companies get to control who gets to air their content and get paid royalties for it? How is this any different? That is my perspective on it. I think there is far too little confirmed information out there to decide who is the bad guy here. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On April 25 2010 17:47 igotmyown wrote: It's insulting to korean judges to say they will automatically side with whatever the business/government wants. They're respected professionals, not stupid puppets. . Because you're assuming Korean courts will judge equally for both a foreign company and a local company, which is not necessarily the case. Korean courts and the Korean government are inclined to protect their own businesses, not foreign businesses. Just recently, Taiwan was forced to enforce intellectual property more strictly due to international pressure: http://www.pcworld.com/article/129642/taiwan_gets_serious_about_intellectual_property.html What about the "respected professional judges" in Taiwan? LOL, you are so lost on this issue, it's laughable. You have a poor understanding of how Asian businesses, governments, and their courts work. They will protect themselves first, until they succumb to international pressure. | ||
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VorcePA
United States1102 Posts
On April 25 2010 17:34 Milkis wrote: Sounds like I was quite correct regarding Blizzard being unreasonable. -snip- All of Blizzard's terms seem reasonable. I don't see why anyone would not want to profit off of the success of their IP being shown in various media outlets (televised tourneys, marketing for products, etc.). KeSPA needs to sit down, shut the fuck up, and mind their manners. KeSPA needs to know that they are dealing with Blizzard; the eternal will of the Starcraft IP, and that KeSPA has been created to serve them. Behold that Blizzard has tried to set them amongst the greatest of their creations, that they might benefit from the wisdom and experience of their maker. Yet KeSPA's purpose is unique. While others carry forth to the innumerable other IPs, they have but one charge entrusted to their care: E-Sports. + Show Spoiler + Kudos if you got my reference And yet, they are failing at that one objective :\ | ||
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