EPTBlizzard to cease negotiations with KeSPA - Page 24
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blazinggpassion
United States27 Posts
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
On April 27 2010 14:52 blazinggpassion wrote: i just hate blizzard... greedy f---s who don't care about anything but money. Progaming will not be the same without Kespa. Sure it has its faults and some controversies, but some of you guys don't understand the fundamental role it has played in developing e-sports. Please don't be naive and think "Kespa is terrible cuz ->insert small issue that doesn't even matter much in the grand scheme of things<-". Please stop using Blizzard's products. Don't align yourself with evil terrible Blizzard that make games you have to play. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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Nukid
United States240 Posts
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Kwanroller
Afghanistan459 Posts
On April 27 2010 15:40 ZlaSHeR wrote: People seriously siding with kespa here? From what I understand what kespa did originally was gain billions off of a product that wasn't theirs, and blizzard let them off the hook all these years. Now with a new product coming out, they want to get their share of what they deserve, and considering kespa is making all their money off of something that isn't theirs, the owners should be allowed a royalty, which is what blizz is asking for. Kespa is trying to act like the bully saying they'll just go back to BW and never move over to SC2, but blizzard is in the power position since SC2 and DUH bw, is their product. How much do you actually make off progaming? This is actually a legitimate question since I still have no idea. They don't charge for you to go watch proleague or the OSL at the Yongsan stadium, if it can even be called a stadium, so they're not earning cash from ticket revenue. The chaebols have to pay to feed, house, provide dozens of computers, equipment, coaches, staff, and team building activities for the proteams so there's seems to be a pretty big operating cost. I don't think any proteam lives like Hanbit anymore so they're all living fairly comfortably, except perhaps eStro which definitely looks the most frugal from what I've seen in Artosis' videos. Of course you save a bit of cash by underpaying your players but I still don't see where all the cash is coming from. Heck, I've always just assumed that these companies own these teams as gimmicks. I mean having a beer brewery company sponsor an esports team is one of the more confusing decisions I've seen in a long time. The only money I can really think off are through the sponsors and, in CJ's and MBC's case, through people buying your cable channel. (I'm not supporting Blizzard or Kespa here. I am genuinely interested in how these proteams run and how they generate money) | ||
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olof
Sweden254 Posts
On April 27 2010 15:57 Nukid wrote: To my knowledge Blizzard only fight over SC2 rights and not SC1 right? So, KESPA can still run events like what they are doing right now with SC1? If so, I'm glad Blizzard ceased the negotiation, because I don't play SC2. I like things the way they are I'd like to know this also. StarCraft II hasn't impressed me, idc about the pro scene there, but I'd really hate Blizz if they took away the BW leagues.. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On April 27 2010 13:29 MuffinDude wrote: Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either. Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard. lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up. KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now. Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting. I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch. But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing. | ||
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
Myung Soo (Yarnc), Chan Soo (Luxury), Sang Ho (SangHo), Jung Woo (EffOrt), Yong Hwa (Movie), Jae Yoon (sAviOr), Taek Yong (Bisu), Byong Goo (Stork), Jae Wook (BeSt), il Jang (hero), Myung Hoon (fantasy), Heui Seung (UpMaGiC), Jae Dong (Jaedong), Sang Moon (Leta), Jong Seo (Justin), Chang Hee (go.go) Source: http://www.gamepron.com/news/2010/04/12/starcraft-cheating-scandal-rocks-korea/ | ||
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
Fantasy Best And you wonder why T1 was playing like shit these days :/ | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On April 27 2010 16:09 Kwanroller wrote: How much do you actually make off progaming? This is actually a legitimate question since I still have no idea. They don't charge for you to go watch proleague or the OSL at the Yongsan stadium, if it can even be called a stadium, so they're not earning cash from ticket revenue. The chaebols have to pay to feed, house, provide dozens of computers, equipment, coaches, staff, and team building activities for the proteams so there's seems to be a pretty big operating cost. I don't think any proteam lives like Hanbit anymore so they're all living fairly comfortably, except perhaps eStro which definitely looks the most frugal from what I've seen in Artosis' videos. Of course you save a bit of cash by underpaying your players but I still don't see where all the cash is coming from. Heck, I've always just assumed that these companies own these teams as gimmicks. I mean having a beer brewery company sponsor an esports team is one of the more confusing decisions I've seen in a long time. The only money I can really think off are through the sponsors and, in CJ's and MBC's case, through people buying your cable channel. (I'm not supporting Blizzard or Kespa here. I am genuinely interested in how these proteams run and how they generate money) The companies sponsor teams as advertising. Just like small bowling teams are sponsored by local comapnies, CJ, Samsung, SK Telecom, etc sponsor E-Sports teams for the publicity (and PR). The players wear the sponsor logos on their uniforms, play well, and (hopefully) influence the fans to buy their products. The same goes for MSL/OSL sponsors (and Shinhan bank which sponsors Proleague). There is clearly a profit there for the companies, even if its in good publicity and a more positive name recognition instead of direct revenues. As for how much the companies would make from the added sales vs the cost of operating the teams (which is certainly not cheap due to housing, food, salaries, coaching staff, uniforms, etc) its really unclear just how good of an investment it is. Many large companies consider investments that go towards good PR as worthwhile even if they do not directly get paid for them. | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
On April 27 2010 16:09 Kwanroller wrote: How much do you actually make off progaming? This is actually a legitimate question since I still have no idea. They don't charge for you to go watch proleague or the OSL at the Yongsan stadium, if it can even be called a stadium, so they're not earning cash from ticket revenue. The chaebols have to pay to feed, house, provide dozens of computers, equipment, coaches, staff, and team building activities for the proteams so there's seems to be a pretty big operating cost. I don't think any proteam lives like Hanbit anymore so they're all living fairly comfortably, except perhaps eStro which definitely looks the most frugal from what I've seen in Artosis' videos. Of course you save a bit of cash by underpaying your players but I still don't see where all the cash is coming from. Heck, I've always just assumed that these companies own these teams as gimmicks. I mean having a beer brewery company sponsor an esports team is one of the more confusing decisions I've seen in a long time. The only money I can really think off are through the sponsors and, in CJ's and MBC's case, through people buying your cable channel. (I'm not supporting Blizzard or Kespa here. I am genuinely interested in how these proteams run and how they generate money) How many more cellphones/plans Korea Telecom, SK Telecom, or Samsung sell due to their involvement in the proscene is something you cannot measure. How much merchandise Hwaseung/Lecaf sells because of their team cannot be measured. How many more games WeMade sells cannot be measured. How many CJ food products, shows, or movies are purchased/viewed cannot be measured. How many Shinhan Bank accounts are opened because of the Proleague is impossible to know. Yet no doubt all of these corporations are gaining substantially due to their involvement in the scene, or they wouldn't still be there. It's about marketing a brand name to an audience (mostly young men) that are about to become independent consumers. edit: looks like moopie beat me to it. On April 27 2010 16:28 Limenade wrote: oh yea btw heres the list of players being accused of rigging matches in korea to make money, just further corrupting e-sports in korea and kespa's name so who cares Myung Soo (Yarnc), Chan Soo (Luxury), Sang Ho (SangHo), Jung Woo (EffOrt), Yong Hwa (Movie), Jae Yoon (sAviOr), Taek Yong (Bisu), Byong Goo (Stork), Jae Wook (BeSt), il Jang (hero), Myung Hoon (fantasy), Heui Seung (UpMaGiC), Jae Dong (Jaedong), Sang Moon (Leta), Jong Seo (Justin), Chang Hee (go.go) Source: http://www.gamepron.com/news/2010/04/12/starcraft-cheating-scandal-rocks-korea/ That has next to nothing to do with the topic at hand, why would you bring it up? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5860 Posts
On April 27 2010 16:20 xBillehx wrote: lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up. KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now. Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting. I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch. But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing. They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that? And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money. Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
That has next to nothing to do with the topic at hand, why would you bring it up? Because it also could be a major reasoning behind why Kespa has no leverage anymore against blizzard since there is a good chance many of the pro gamers could even go to jail if these accusations against them turn out to be true. Thus making it even more of a reason behind why blizzard should not associate with Kespa and should look else where to find a new partner in E-Sports one that was not related to multi million dollar gambling related scandals that involved Blizzard's product. | ||
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
On April 27 2010 16:20 xBillehx wrote: lol. Ok, Blizzard asking for more money? Blizzard hasn't gotten anything from Starcraft 2 and that's the one thing they were asking for. Royalties. Look it up. KeSPA isn't making too much themselves? They basically never lose money. They put no investment into the development of the game and broadcast it on TV collecting a ton of money from it. It was an investment, and the investment went gold. Any other group could have taken the risk and forked up some investment money to grow progaming in Korea. In fact, any other group can now. Starcraft 2 already has the hype it needs to surpass BW. KeSPA had nothing to do with that. Since KeSPA acted like a spoiled child, Blizzard will just find a new group who wants to make money by investing in their product and broadcasting. I'll agree with your last point. It's the fans that made scbw like it is now. The demand to watch these progamers is why it was kept alive. The fans also couldnt give two shits if it was KeSPA, SM Entertainment, or Blizzard running the tournaments, as long as they got some good games to watch. But besides that, Blizzard never wanted control over Proleagues of SC2 in Korea. They were completely willing to let KeSPA do their thing and even tried for three years to negotiate their rightfully entitled royalties, but KeSPA didn't wanna pay to broadcast someone else's new product. They basically wanted to make more money off of a new product, for free. I have no doubt other groups will pop up to help. Hell, even in the interview itself, Blizzard is going to find a new partner to run it, not themselves. KeSPA lost out on this one and I look forward to the future of Starcraft 2 because, sad as it is, broodwar is dieing. I seriously dont know if it is true, but let's say Blizzard really tried to talk to KESPA and KESPA ignored their offer - that's something that really p*** me off. I actually know how "unions" or "representators" are and they are all sometimes as dumb as can be, seriously. Those people got THEIR point and once you want to actually discuss, rather even TALK to them, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that makes them even care about the points you have to offer. So seeing this like "live" everyday myself on my current work - I clearly can imagine how bad blizzard feels about KESPA. As already stated, KESPA makes profit out of the blue, with a product that Blizzard owns. Here in Germany for isntance you have to pay at least a very basic fee for the "artist" if you want to broadcast widely his product. Kespa is basicly using the artworks, the game itself etc. for free if I'm not mistaken. Arguing about the thing - in SC2 tournaments will be held on the battle.net servers - an insane infrastructre that consumes tons of power, heat control, hardware and coffee (for the techies  .Of course, a LAN mode would solve a lot, but I think the concept of Battle.net 2.0 is to connect people instead of limiting the whole amount of tools the internet has to offer. It's also a complete new platform we shouldn't blame to much on just because it's new and not perfectly working. By the way, if you look at the old battle.net now, you really want to step back instead of forward? I don't. I by the way personally think a "offline" mode will be added sooner or later anyway for sure once the game established. They already mentioned it in former interviews to implement the offline mode where you can play in LAN by just verify your copy and account once on the battle.net. Internet is available everywhere even at a TV broadcasting station and so it's just a matter of latency and /dnd mode. Every LAN party offers a internet connection which is basicly enough for a temporary logon session. Tough, there is no real "need" for the release I suppose they rather focused on establishing the new Battle.net and the game itself instead of "minor" technical issues like that. As you can see, this is a completely other topic itself. So if KESPA really acts like that, completely ignoring ANYTHING to come to a solution - which Blizzard seems clearly to offer for over three years and spit on them with things like that rating for SC2 - I'd clearly looking for someone new to run public events. I think what made SC:BW so great was basicly the fan base, especially outside of korea where something like KESPA isn't existing that ALSO made it valueable for KESPA to broadcast. Same goes for ICCup or former PGTour. Blizzard wants to be part of it, that is obvious but obviously they dont want to be the "host", just the partner, which is totally right. Actually they seem to want to make it even "easier" to access the fanbase if you watch the broadcasting feature and all that stuff upcoming in Battle.net 2.0. If something like a world wide SC2 association would merge, using the battle.net 2.0 features and features available for the "average" sports viewer like TV and radio - it's gonna be insane. Of course, this will be a tough fight but the community is strong and once some companies get the idea how to access the "market" of young adults (which is clearly underrated in europe) - we definately got a COMPLETLY NEW chance to form something great. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Quite simply, if Blizzard ran Starcraft E-sports, it would run terribly. Battle.net never worked and was never fixed, or else there would be no need for a server like iccup's. Not that they even seem to care about what would be best for E-sports, considering the removal of LAN and the regionalized system. They don't seem to have a grasp of what E-sports is either, which will of course hinder competitive play heavily. Although personally I'm glad that Blizzard stopped negotiations, as I believe SC2 is mediocre at best. Considering the support of KeSPA in Asia, it's likely that BW will continue to remain dominant so that we can watch Korean pro games, even if most of the world chooses to move towards a lesser game. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On April 27 2010 16:48 maybenexttime wrote: They wanted to be allowed to ask ANY amount of money from KeSPA (or any tournament organizer for that matter) at any time afaik. That's the most ridiculous condition I've ever heard of. Who would ever go for that? And if you look at what Blizzard are currently doing, you can notice they don't care about esports at all. It's just empty words, that's all. I mean no LAN, region lock, tournament licenses, wanting to able able to ask for any sum of money. Not to mention their perception of esport is pretty skewed to start with. Morhaime said to them it's a way to increase the enjoyment of players. That's very close minded and short sighted. A vast portion of esports fans (BW) are not BW players themselves. Not to mention claiming they'll release all their "pro league" replays, which is utterly ignorant. Why would any respectable progamer actually play there? There were several incidents related to replay leaking in both BW and WC3 scenes. Why would a progamer want most of his practice games be readily available to his competitors? T____T I'm siding with KeSPA here. They are the lesser evil. Blizzard wants to run the SC2 esports scene as some authoritarian state and they've shown they're incompetent when it comes to such relatively small events like BlizzCon. You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly. They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people. I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones. | ||
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hacpee
United States752 Posts
On April 27 2010 17:30 igotmyown wrote: You guys have it backwards. Blizzard isn't removing LAN, locking regions, and such to control the SC scene. What happens is Kespa's making however much millions or billions or whatever on their product. Blizzard says, you know, since we made it, you're making ridiculous profit, don't you think you owe us something or have some say? Kespa gives them the finger and stonewalls them for the last few years. They claim that broadcasting isn't violating blizzard's intellectual property and therefore they don't owe anything. Blizzard: hmmm, we could either keep these bs loopholes in our new game and allow them exploit them or close them overly thoroughly. They were perfectly fine with anti-hack and chaoslauncher even though they probably violate the EULA; they're willing to overlook just about everything as long as it's clear that they have the right to do so. They've never fined people. I doubt Blizzard would put in any of these restrictions if Kespa agreed to cooperate. They don't care at all how Kespa runs their leagues, they probably just want Kespa to get permission from them, probably for some nominal sum or small percentage. If there's a way to enable LAN and maintain intellectual property, I'm sure they'd be willing to do it. They would probably overlook it if someone finds a way to create a 3rd party LAN system, and only want the illegal part as IP leverage against kespa clones. You seriously think Kespa is making billions? What world are you living in? MSL has had a hard time sponsoring its tournaments since forever. Have you seen what sponsors it has had? The point is that Blizzard does not have a vested interest in Starcraft Esports succeeding for more than a couple of years. Every 3 or so years they come up with a new game. Then the old one becomes basically ignored. So they support SC2 for 3 years, then they'll move on to something better. Guess what? All the hard work players put into perfecting their game during the 3 years will be wasted. If I remember correctly, Blizzard tried to control the WoW tourneys basically limiting play to their own servers. Players at official lan tournaments basically had to connect to Blizzard through the internet to play. No lan latency in a Lan tournament! You were restricted by the internet connection. Absurd. | ||
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