|
On April 27 2010 06:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 06:10 QibingZero wrote:
Exactly, and this is what happened with SC in the first place. Blizzard didn't see profit potential in it any longer, and moved onto selling D2, and it's expansion. Then WC3 and it's expansion. Then WoW and it's expansions. Blizzard only keeps involved in games long enough to say they've done it. They do nothing past provide a mostly irrelevant bug fix patch 5 years later, or a faux balance patch that does little to address real problems. WoW is mostly an exception from this, and unsurprisingly so, because their performance in dealing with that game greatly impacts their profit margins at the end of the day. =P Chat in replays, CPU throttling, and removing the CD key requirement are hardly "irrelevant bug fixes". These were all implemented in SC in the last 2 years and the response on TL.net to these changes was overwhelmingly positive. As far as game developers go, Blizzard has gone well beyond what's delivered by any other game developer. Similarly significant content changes have been delivered in patches of other Blizzard games, and the cycle between releases from Blizzard is far longer than from any other developer. Put simply, you've been spoiled. Plenty of other developers have put out 2-3 sequels between when SC2 was announced and now, while SC2 itself isn't even out of beta. To say that Blizzard is insensitive to the needs of Esports is one thing. To say that they're insensitive to their fanbase as a whole is just plain wrong.
This isn't applicable whatsoever. The argument is not about how Blizzard stacks up vs other game developers, it's about how they stack up running Esports. I didn't say they're insensitive, I only said their primary concern at the end of the day is actually profit from their game design, and is largely removed from Esports. It doesn't matter that other games companies are concerned with profit as well, perhaps even more so than Blizzard (tbh though, Blizzard just has a better business model - the goals are exactly the same).
Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 06:10 QibingZero wrote:
If you want a good example of what Blizzard + Esports is all about, take a look at WC3. Map stagnation, never ending balance issues (related to the map issues, in the end), stonewalling over a proposed balance patch for ages... Given the popularity WC3 has had in Germany, China, and other locations, it should been a much stronger Esport.
It's funny that people say that Warcraft 3 was not patched for balance enough, when it received vastly more balance-patching than Starcraft ever did. One wonders what would have happened if Blizzard took an approach more like that in Starcraft, where after a couple balance changes for serious issues, they let it be.
It has nothing to do with whether it was patched more often or not. Quality over quantity, any day. And it wasn't the fact Blizzard left SC alone after a time that balanced it, it was the fact that someone else took up the reigns and tweaked the gameplay in the right direction through map building. Besides, you're ignoring hundreds of other variables here - most notably the fact that WC3 has 4 races and tons of random elements while SC has 3 races based off of extremely static numbers.
|
On April 27 2010 06:52 xBillehx wrote:
It amazes me the amount of people who believe KeSPA is necessary for eSports to live because they provide sponsor money. You guys act like KeSPA is a saint and gives out money like donations but KeSPA doesn't lose a penny. They're always making a huge profit off of broadcasting and I don't think any of you defending them have an idea how much that amount is compared to what they throw away for sponsor prizes.
KeSPA is a thing of the past. The consumers will easily get over their death and go watch the other companies who broadcast. You think all those fans go because of KeSPA? They go to watch awesome games. The only thing that wont carry on perhaps is the SC1 Pro teams, and that's alright. It's an entirely new game but the scene is already developed, WITHOUT KeSPA and entirely because of Blizzard. They even began to develop the Starcraft 2 scene in Korea by giving them an Open Beta. You think all those people playing give two shits about KeSPA and Starcraft 1? KeSPA has no right to even deny Blizzard any royalties for the new game they had nothing to do with.
The only thing KeSPA has over Blizzard is the sense of nationality in it's own country. Korean pride is strong and I dont doubt they'd stick together but the market wont stand behind pride alone. If there's a possibility of making as much money as KeSPA makes and still be able to just give away huge prize pools, the companies will invest.
The Starcraft 2 scene has already kicked off without KeSPA and the game is still in beta. The future of Starcraft 2 definitely doesn't need KeSPA and will more likely than not develop in Korea regardless.
You see that is where you're mistaken. The reason many people spend 12 hours a day today playing Starcraft is because they know that SC will still be around in 2 years(well not so much now but that was the case a few years ago). The players know that Kespa will not just arbitrarily move on to a new game. Their hard work now will pay off some day in the future. However, if you are part of some loose group of leagues that can't guarantee that they'll stick with the same game for more than 2 years, then players won't practice 12 hours a day and slave their heart out to be the best they can be in the game. Why? Because in 2 years,all that work will be obsolete and there will be a new game that Blizzard comes out with.
Again, Blizzard isn't in this to make Esports successful. It is there to make money, and it sees Esports as a small revenue stream. Nothing else. If that revenue stream starts to flounder, it won't risk money propping it up and making it grow. Instead, it will come out with a new game and try to make that new game the new Esports of blizzard and start a whole new revenue stream.
Kespa is no different. Except that Esports is all it has. If their revenue for the game flounders, then it will need to reinvest to train a whole new bunch of players to play a new game. It will need to reinvest a ton of money and time into a new bunch of players to move on to another game. It would rather stay with a central game for a long time to maximize revenue.
|
United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2010 06:54 QibingZero wrote:
This isn't applicable whatsoever. The argument is not about how Blizzard stacks up vs other game developers, it's about how they stack up running Esports. I didn't say they're insensitive, I only said their primary concern at the end of the day is actually profit from their game design, and is largely removed from Esports. It doesn't matter that other games companies are concerned with profit as well, perhaps even more so than Blizzard (tbh though, Blizzard just has a better business model - the goals are exactly the same).
I was confused by your argument, apologies. On this we agree.
At the same time, I don't consider the interests of KeSPA to be any more aligned with the good of Esports than Blizzard's. However, Blizzard has the added incentive that a healthy SC2 competitive community is, at least for the time being, good publicity. By comparison, attention toward SC2 for KeSPA is likely to take attention away from SC1. I suspect Blizzard will attempt to find a managing body more aligned with their own interests, and I highly doubt that can be worse than KeSPA has been to date. At the very least, the fact that Blizzard doesn't have financial interest vested in the ownership of progaming teams means that we could hope to see some better movement for players' rights (wishful thinking, I know).
|
On April 27 2010 07:05 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 06:54 QibingZero wrote:
This isn't applicable whatsoever. The argument is not about how Blizzard stacks up vs other game developers, it's about how they stack up running Esports. I didn't say they're insensitive, I only said their primary concern at the end of the day is actually profit from their game design, and is largely removed from Esports. It doesn't matter that other games companies are concerned with profit as well, perhaps even more so than Blizzard (tbh though, Blizzard just has a better business model - the goals are exactly the same). I was confused by your argument, apologies. On this we agree. At the same time, I don't consider the interests of KeSPA to be any more aligned with the good of Esports than Blizzard's. However, Blizzard has the added incentive that a healthy SC2 competitive community is, at least for the time being, good publicity. By comparison, attention toward SC2 for KeSPA is likely to take attention away from SC1. I suspect Blizzard will attempt to find a managing body more aligned with their own interests, and I highly doubt that can be worse than KeSPA has been to date. At the very least, the fact that Blizzard doesn't have financial interest vested in the ownership of progaming teams means that we could hope to see some better movement for players' rights (wishful thinking, I know).
The livelihood of KeSPA depend on the health of Esport, Blizzard's overall livelihood does not depend on it. One has experience running it for 10 years and Blizzard thinks Lan is obsolete. I think it's wishful thinking that somehow blizzard will do it better than KeSPA.
Everyone bitches about KeSPA and then stays up till 4am to watch proleagues, despite their problems, they do a good job promoting the game, players and teams so that it feels more fun/endearing to watch. Things like this allowed it to be broadcast on television and you have people that don't even know the game coming into watch.
|
On April 26 2010 21:31 ket- wrote:
Well, the way I see it, I've always had the feeling Blizzard is very close to its players - they care about what people say, and try to adjust. I VERY highly doubt they'd just want to go against KeSPA, they probably did try to negociate to make things better for everyone. Least I imagine it so.
But from what I've read about KeSPA over the years, they kinda seem to really want the whole cake - in this situation I'm fairly sure they don't even care that much and just think they're big enough to take the hit or have a trick up their sleeve.
Then again, I'm fairly clueless on the subject and just throwing out assumptions here.
you better not post if you know nothing about what you talk about no ?
|
Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance
- LAN latency
- Other launcher features
- Tournaments
- Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
|
This posting seems to be relevant to the conversation.
What would happen if the teams were not united in staying with Kespa?
|
On April 27 2010 07:57 Gnabgib wrote:This posting seems to be relevant to the conversation. What would happen if the teams were not united in staying with Kespa?
Blizzard would probably try to figure out something to make all the sc1 players to buy sc2 instead. They don't care about the sc:bw scene, they just want us all to buy sc2.
|
im seriously thinking about human brain right now , some of you got something inside ?
if kespa die that simple and easy : e-sport and progaming in korea die for sc1 and probably sc2 .
if blizzard handle e-sport = online tourney , online ladder , stop right when they stop make money , mean 2 year MAX. then they move on new game .
e-sport outside korea ? : keep dreaming and plz dont tell me some players or team who got less that fast food job money and the moral of everyone outside korea think that what they are doing are bad .
i dont care what you think , this going to happen that you like it or not .
keep dreaming , until everything break , keep dreaming !!!
here we go SC2 pro gaming !!!!!!!!! everywhere in the world !!!!
blizzard = right
what they do = right
what they think = what you need to think .
if you are not thinking like blizzard you are wrong since blizzard = right
but dont worry we at blizzard REALY CARE about the players . we care so much about pro gaming , you cant know how ! we only think about the players while making game
ho yes we realy care
that the reason we removed lan btw , because we care about you !
btw....... did you buy the 3 game yet ?
|
^^ you should only attempt sarcasm if you have a reasonable grasp on the english language.
please organize your thoughts in a more cohesive manner.
|
i dont have an english diploma and i can understand him?
Either way, Blizzard talks about supporting e-sports to make us feel warm and fuzzy and buy their game. Of course, No lan, devisions in ladder is all to promote e-sport yeahhhhh.
While Korean companies, regardless if they are making profit or not or charity or whatsoever theyve been talking, have shown that they can run e-sports for 7 straight years or more
between trusting blizzard or korean companies, i definitely trust koreans on this one. Sure, they are greedy, but their earning is directly proportional to the quality of their games presentation,
while Blizzard is greedy too, but their earning is instead proportional to numbers of games sold, and also (tournaments fee's + tournament ticket's sales - tournament prizes), because there is no way they can make money by showing SC western progamers.
|
United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote:
Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance
- LAN latency
- Other launcher features
- Tournaments
- Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
How is attacking KeSPA in any way attacking players and fans? There are cases people could cite and have cited where KeSPA endangered competitive Starcraft and the Esports as a whole just as much as Blizzard is supposedly doing now (in actuality, this doesn't endanger competitive Starcraft at all--only the release of SC2 will do that).
KeSPA is just as much a self-interested as Blizzard. Don't try to turn this into a "corporations vs consumers" battle here, because that's very clearly not what this is. This is two greedy corporations fighting for the bigger piece of the pie.
|
On April 27 2010 11:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote:
Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance
- LAN latency
- Other launcher features
- Tournaments
- Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA. How is attacking KeSPA in any way attacking players and fans? There are cases people could cite and have cited where KeSPA endangered competitive Starcraft and the Esports as a whole just as much as Blizzard is supposedly doing now (in actuality, this doesn't endanger competitive Starcraft at all--only the release of SC2 will do that). KeSPA is just as much a self-interested as Blizzard. Don't try to turn this into a "corporations vs consumers" battle here, because that's very clearly not what this is. This is two greedy corporations fighting for the bigger piece of the pie.
As several other people have already mentioned, KeSPA depends solely on the preservation of esports in Korea, while Blizzard has no such dependence. Hence, in a vacuum, a KeSPA-esque esports model will last longer than a Blizzard created model. There is no real right or wrong here, only which evil will be better for esports in the long term.
|
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote:
Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance
- LAN latency
- Other launcher features
- Tournaments
- Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
..except KeSPA has been "attacking" fans for years, lol.
|
United States47024 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:00 buhhy wrote:
As several other people have already mentioned, KeSPA depends solely on the preservation of esports in Korea, while Blizzard has no such dependence. Hence, in a vacuum, a KeSPA-esque esports model will last longer than a Blizzard created model. There is no real right or wrong here, only which evil will be better for esports in the long term.
Is longevity all that matters in the industry?
Is this the same TL that was bitching about Jaedong being underpaid a few months ago?
+ Show Spoiler +
The obvious answer being no, as post-SC2 beta, TL's had an influx of new users who don't even know what I'm talking about.
|
On April 27 2010 07:51 LxRogue wrote:
Blizzard has done virtually nothing over the years to help competitive SC.
- Maps and balance
- LAN latency
- Other launcher features
- Tournaments
- Ladders
All of this has been done by the Korean and foreign communities. Blizzard should be thanking fans of SC for the sales and publicity, not punishing them by attacking KeSPA.
ya blizz only made the game
~_~
|
On April 27 2010 12:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 12:00 buhhy wrote:
As several other people have already mentioned, KeSPA depends solely on the preservation of esports in Korea, while Blizzard has no such dependence. Hence, in a vacuum, a KeSPA-esque esports model will last longer than a Blizzard created model. There is no real right or wrong here, only which evil will be better for esports in the long term. Is longevity all that matters in the industry? Is this the same TL that was bitching about Jaedong being underpaid a few months ago?
Yes longevity matters. Why? Because it gives players more time to be familiar with the game and explore every creative possibility.It also ensures that the time spent playing and practicing(12 hours a day) will not be wasted in a year or two just because Blizzard comes out with a new game.
It took years for Starcraft to evolve into the multi-tasking orgasm it is today. It will take a bit less, but still a long time for Starcraft 2 to fulfill its full potential. Only then can we see truly skilled Starcraft, which is what matters. Right now, I am not enjoying the SC2 tournaments at all. I only watch SC1 programing currently because of how skilled they are. Frankly, the skill level in SC2 isn't there yet.
|
TheYango, I said that Blizzard is hurting fans and SC in general by fighting KeSPA.
Sure KeSPA has made some stupid decisions (ok, maybe a LOT of stupid decisions) but they are the ones who are keeping professional SC going. I realize that both companies are just in it for the money, but the right choice for eSports is for Blizzard to back down. KeSPA has problems, but they have given us the pro-scene for years and given Blizzard a some decent sales on a 10+ year old game.
If Blizzard had been putting a lot of support into a ladder and community, then I would understand them getting bitchy about copyright. As it is, however, they have done virtually nothing, and everything significant in the last 8-10 years related to Brood War happened because of Korean companies and loyal fans.
|
On April 27 2010 12:49 LxRogue wrote:
but they are the ones who are keeping professional SC going.
....
Professional Starcraft is going because there is profit to be made. There is profit to be made because there is demand. If you remove the profit to be made, the demand does not go away. And capitalism dictates that someone else will readily come fill that demand for a tidy profit.
|
On April 27 2010 12:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 12:00 buhhy wrote:
As several other people have already mentioned, KeSPA depends solely on the preservation of esports in Korea, while Blizzard has no such dependence. Hence, in a vacuum, a KeSPA-esque esports model will last longer than a Blizzard created model. There is no real right or wrong here, only which evil will be better for esports in the long term. Is longevity all that matters in the industry? Is this the same TL that was bitching about Jaedong being underpaid a few months ago? + Show Spoiler +
The obvious answer being no, as post-SC2 beta, TL's had an influx of new users who don't even know what I'm talking about.
Dude, blizzard just want profits while kespa at least has a slight intention of keeping progaming alive. Kespa is clearly the lesser of two evil here. I just don't like how blizzard is asking kespa for pretty much more money when kespa isn't making too much themselves either.
Blizzard made scbw, but it was the fans that made scbw like it is now, not blizzard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
