Never had I seen so much dominance in starcraft. The sheer power and macro of dominance has put him along side with Iloveoov during his prime. Will he continue his ridiculous tear or burn out like so much around him?
"He doesn’t lose easily. He has such good foundations in general, in that he knows how to set himself up for a solid late game position, something he really excels in. It’s difficult to beat him because of that." - Jaedong on Flash answering a question from his fans, on what makes Flash such a good player
"Because I’ve already been in Flash’s group twice in a row, no matter how interesting it is, it might be better to avoid it"- Kwanro's interview for the OSL Ro16 Day 6th
"Flash will win. Just looking at Flash's current state tells us he will win." Bisu oponion for OSL Hype on Movie vs Flash
"Flash is also good at abusing mind games so if he is able to break Movie down psychologically, I don't think Movie has a slight chance to win."- Fantasy's opinion for OSL Hype on Movie vs Flash
"When I saw Kal go carriers I figured he would win. But then I fell asleep, and when I woke up 4 of Kal’s expansions were gone. Flash very keenly exploited Protoss’s weakness while transitioning into carriers." - Stork's interview on the OSL Ro16 Day 5 commenting on Flash's ability against protoss
"There was a time when I only slept for three hours a day and literally did nothing but practice for the remaining twenty-one hours."- Flash on his practice routine
Froom 2009-12-26 to 2010-04-14 Flash's Last 61 Games
From 2009-9-12 to 2010-04-14 Flash's Last 21 Games Against Protoss
From 2009-10-14 to 2010-04-14 Flash's Last 20 Games Against Zerg
From 2009-11-09 to 2010-04-14 Flash's Last 20 Games Against Terran
IloveOoV's last 73 Games (Credit Goes to Ver for this Photo)
On April 17 2010 08:06 hyst.eric.al wrote: He is, how do you say, a good player.
Flash is pretty good. For all the games that he's lost, they're definitely games to watch. hyvaa's win was very impressive, and JvF is always fun to watch.
On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote: I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol
Well TvZ used to be his strongest and now it's his weakest according to these statistics. So maybe he started practicing his TvP instead of his TvZ.
On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote: I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol
Well TvZ used to be his strongest and now it's his weakest according to these statistics. So maybe he started practicing his TvP instead of his TvZ.
Keep in mind 60% of the losses referred to there are vs Jaedong, including that final where one of the games was negatively affected by what had happened with the power outage and stuff...
I don't think the stats really show his TvZ being weaker particularly.
On April 17 2010 08:34 Trezeguet23 wrote: Just goes to show that he can beat everyone but Jaedong.
Ahaha, if only they could play right now so Flash could utterly destroy the shit outta Jaedong and shut his fan boys up.
y u mad bro
Because every single one of Jaedong's fans has a problem acknowledging Flash's success. They think that just because every time there's a "Flash is kinda good" thread they have to go in and post some random shit as seen a few posts up.
On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote: I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol
It wasn't at the time when people where saying TvP was his weakest matchup. That was when he lost his first two games against tosses of the season (not counting a qualifier game against Daezang), and had a record of 59% in 2009 (with most of his wins against really weak players, and going 3-11 against the dragons), compared to a 81% win rate against Zerg and a 78% win rate against Terran (and both having been completely unbeaten even, if counting from the start of his dominance).
Yep its certainly an impressive display of consistency and i wonder how long he can keep it up. Its a good time for terran in general and he's leading the way. Some P have got to get their form back and start swinging PvT back the other way imo.
This is why Flash/JD/Stork/Bisu(maybe not anymore? Time will tell I guess) matches are epic. It's kind of boring to watch them play against average players. But when they play each other, it's simply epic and intense.
The only recent games to get my adrenaline pumping were Flash vs. JD MSL finals and the Stork vs. JD winner's league ace match. Those were incredible games. I wish Kespa rigged it so they played more often
On April 17 2010 08:34 Trezeguet23 wrote: Just goes to show that he can beat everyone but Jaedong.
flash vs jd is a toss up, any of the two can take a game from each other. besides jd i dont see anyone beating flash; whereas there are alot of other pros that can beat jd atm
yep, as OneOther said, Flash deserve some serious credit cause the average skill level since oov's time has exponentially increased.
Flash is well known for turtling, but if you do smth weird or a mistake, he will overcome you will pure agressive sexyness.. not to mention his macro.. omg!
OMFG I FINALLY GET TO SEE OVV's pic again. I've been looking for that screenshot for ages; the first time i saw it i started crying i was laughing so hard; you see this seemingly lost/innocent guy with a bunch of pixels next to him stating he's a heartless murderer. Most funny!
It probably took someone less than a week to beat the Brood War campaign.... now, over 10 years later, Flash has finally beaten the multiplayer as well.
On April 17 2010 10:19 f10esqftw wrote: It probably took someone less than a week to beat the Brood War campaign.... now, over 10 years later, Flash has finally beaten the multiplayer as well.
On April 17 2010 10:19 f10esqftw wrote: It probably took someone less than a week to beat the Brood War campaign.... now, over 10 years later, Flash has finally beaten the multiplayer as well.
genius xD
while i am a huge jaedong fanboy, I also love flash cause their games are so epic. don't generalize on fans :S
if I remember, jaedong also had a huge arse run (like august 2009?) where he was eating people left and right. Not to detract from Flash's achievements (which I believe are even more impressive considering the skill improvement), but I found jaedong / boxer's win streaks more awesome because there were games where they looked like they could actually lose.. whereas flash is like "Oh I see you have 10 zerglings... here come 20 mnm" every game lol
what's even funnier is that flash has been losing even less in "decisive" games (games that knock him out of a league or lose the match for his team). Actually I'll be devil's advocate and call PL matches for which he does NOT win the ace match "decisive" as well.
These are all his televised losses in the past year (including some in silly leagues):
M18M (SWL) - DTs wooo! ----------- 2 seasons ago ---------- Bisu x2 (WCG Korea) - Bisu 2-1 Flash Kal (SPL): Birthday blues again Backho (SPL): Oz 3-0 KT (oh man Flash lost a lot to Oz last season...) Stork (SPL) Jangbi (SPL) - Flash loses twice in one PL match oh noes!!
I suppose people can argue that Hyvaa/Midas' wins were "important," but Flash advanced anyways, so who cares?
TvT: 19-5 since last season, 33-9 in last year TvZ: 36-9 since last season, 53-16 in last year TvP: 20-4 since last season, 34-11 in last year (including W Jaehoon in "silly league," Ultimate PL)
Also, a maybe more convincing way to say "Flash won a silver and a gold" is the fact that in the last 6 months Flash has failed to advance/win a series in an individual league only ONCE while winning TWELVE times.
Still, I *guess* we have to be conservative and wait for a few more titles until he gets the b-word, huh?
On April 17 2010 12:28 TwoToneTerran wrote: You don't have to be conservative. Bonjwa is a feeling, not a number of titles. Savior was Bonjwa when he had 2 golds and a silver, too.
Flipside, Flash isn't definitively and obviously bonjwa yet, like savior obviously was after he beat Nada etc.
I guess I wasn't around then, but what set savior apart? It can't be "win percentage" or "scary play" or "scaring every other progamer into not wanting to play him"...
Flash is raping tvp, a MU thought where supposedly toss had the advantage. i think this could be a really good run for flash. he will be the dominant player for quite a while
sure we can say flash doesn't have the necessary medals, but looking at the osl round of 16 interviews were pretty funny; Kwanro doesn't want to play Flash ever again in the OSL, Zero says he's good for anyone except flash, forgg "feels confident he can beat anyone but Flash". Seems like gamers treat flash as a death sentence these days.
Forgg practices against flash most likely everyday so I am sure he would have the most reasons to fear him. As for players on other teams I think they are just using it as an almost excuse. Flash is beatable by any player; M18M, recently hyvaa, and not just the S-class players. With the right build and good play its possible to win in a BO3 or 5 series.
flash is dominant, but what defines the b-word is longevity, not medals, as boxer had a few silvers sprinkled in there but his streak lasted a long time, while JD had many medals, but has not been around all that long, and thus is not considered a bonjwa.
On April 17 2010 12:55 No.Doubt wrote: Forgg practices against flash most likely everyday so I am sure he would have the most reasons to fear him. As for players on other teams I think they are just using it as an almost excuse. Flash is beatable by any player; M18M, recently hyvaa, and not just the S-class players. With the right build and good play its possible to win in a BO3 or 5 series.
I'm sorry but Flash won't lose a BO5 to anyone not named Jaedong. You really underestimate the gap between Flash and other players. He understands the game a lot better than his opponents. They can pick a good build and play well and still lose.
On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote: I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol
This reminds me of when iloveoov was labeled a TvT specialist who got lucky in the other matchups after he beat Nada a bunch of times in a row, then people posted a screenshot of his MBC winrates as 76% TvT, 92% TvP, and 88% TvZ. His supposed specialist matchup was more than 10% lower than each of his other ones, XD.
He really was equally strong in all matchups though, his TvT stats only looked weaker because he the luck of the draw gave him stronger opposition there (at the time more than half of his losses came from Nada in his prime). The same was true for Nada, he was one of the most dominant TvT players in the history of the game but he played against iloveoov so many times that his TvZ winrate ended up being much higher. I guess the same is true of Flash's TvZ now, it's getting dragged down from playing Jaedong so many times.
How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote: I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol
Well TvZ used to be his strongest and now it's his weakest according to these statistics. So maybe he started practicing his TvP instead of his TvZ.
Keep in mind 60% of the losses referred to there are vs Jaedong, including that final where one of the games was negatively affected by what had happened with the power outage and stuff...
I don't think the stats really show his TvZ being weaker particularly.
On April 17 2010 09:06 AstraBoy wrote: oov's game were more fun to watch than flash
what no
Both of them were/are considered boring at their times because their style did not involve a lot of cute tricks or flashy micro, but rather things that were a bit deeper in the game, harder to understand style if you aren't a hardcore player yourself.
I guess Iloveoov's macro revolution was a bit more distinquishable to the average player than Flash's though.
Isn't the pre-StarCraft meaning of bonjwa something like "final boss" that would refer to the boss you'd fight at the end of a level in a video game? In any case, I consider flash a bonjwa. Insane talent and consistency.
On April 18 2010 01:12 Liquid`NonY wrote: Isn't the pre-StarCraft meaning of bonjwa something like "final boss" that would refer to the boss you'd fight at the end of a level in a video game? In any case, I consider flash a bonjwa. Insane talent and consistency.
i think players get the same feeling when they're up against flash, the same feeling i get (a D+ newbie myself) when i play players 2 levels higher than me.
even if i do the same bo they do, for some reason it just doesn't feel right the way i'm doing it, their bos are so much more fluid, practiced, and mine is just clunky and robotic. every second counts in bos, so higher levelled players always tend to squeeze out every second and abuse it to their advantage, must be the same way flash is playing, mechanics is all it is IMO. bos are bos and they can only get you so far, then dynamic gameplay takes over.
Look. You can tell how good a person is not based on how they win but rather based on the manner of games that they lose. How often does Flash lose by flat-out fucking up? I mean... the only games I can remember where he does is when he does fail turret/marine placement against 2-hatch muta. But from his last few games, he's pretty much shored that hole up. Flash remains the clear favorite against any scrub you could throw at him.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
I really don't think this will happen. You need to remember that Flash is only 17. If Starcraft does last a few more years, Flash could still be on top and innovating. This is especially likely considering that Jaedong is still dominant at 20.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
I really don't think this will happen. You need to remember that Flash is only 17. If Starcraft does last a few more years, Flash could still be on top and innovating. This is especially likely considering that Jaedong is still dominant at 20.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
I really don't think this will happen. You need to remember that Flash is only 17. If Starcraft does last a few more years, Flash could still be on top and innovating. This is especially likely considering that Jaedong is still dominant at 20.
why not, it happened to everyone else
They were older than Flash when they reached their peaks.
Yeah, Flash is a great player, no doubt. Really impressive of him. Always fun and exciting watching him play and dismantling other players.
But I don't understand why he's considered so much better than Oov. Oov is a macro-pioneer, and also has sick winrate. What's even more impressive is Oov's wins in the starleagues' finals. He has entered five finals and not lost a single one of them. Sick mental strength there.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
I hate people who make these types of ignorant arguments; and coincidently, these come very often from people who never lived through the various eras of progaming.
When oov was raping shit left and right, his fellow progamers were "goooooood" too. The win percentage is in fact the *perfect* evaluation of a player's skill with respect to all the other gamers at that time. The fact that Flash has similar win-ratio as oov indicates that he is just as dominating as oov was, but not more.
On April 17 2010 08:05 Azrael1111 wrote: Ya, people have been saying that iloveoovs run was better, but it really wasn't.
A huge reason to why it was not better is that the competition back then was a joke compared to what it is now.
Players were not able to compete against players from the future, and therefore, judging by today's elevated standards, players from the past were playing at a worse level. Competition between the players was very similar to today.
During the time of oov's dominance, the SK Starcraft scene had already matured (there were teams, individual leagues and team leagues just like today). There were already plenty of advertisement, funding, and prizes such that entry to get into progaming was already very high. The overall competitiveness of Starcraft (due to supply and demand) is arguably worse, but in no way was it a "joke".
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes.
And honestly I DO believe that if there's someone in the future that has become the greatest player ever, skill wise, flash's streak WILL be less impressive. I have no idea how that wouldn't be the case.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes.
It is all about relative skills.
Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p
Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively.
Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***.
It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages).
I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes.
It is all about relative skills.
Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p
Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively.
Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***.
It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages).
I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied.
Couldn't you just say this :"The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages)." without making up those "variables" and calculating nothing =D?
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes.
It is all about relative skills.
Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p
Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively.
Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***.
It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages).
I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied.
Couldn't you just say this :"The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages)." without making up those "variables" and calculating nothing =D?
Yes, but I was really just trying to break things down as much as possible, because some people really have trouble understanding that simple argument.
Flash is amazing, especially for his age, imagine all of that pressure and your team counting on you?? He is easily top 5 greatest SC BW players and most likely will stay #1 untill Starcraft II comes in
About the rabid Jeadong fans saying that Jeadong > Flash:
Being the Flash fanboy that I am, I agree that Jaedong will probably beat Flash in a BO5. He showed this in the MSL finals. Even though those finals were a bit of a fluke, I think Jaedongs play was just better than Flash's at that point.
However, Flash consistently beats everyone else in every match he plays. Jaedong has a bit of a sloppy record when it comes to his other games. That's why we can safely say that Flash is a better player than Jaedong, even though Jaedong might beat him in a BO5.
I think Flash's dominance is more impressive than oovs. Simply because it's less likely. (the most impressive thing with oov was that he always won finals as far as I can remember..)
The reason for it is that we are humans, we have limitations. The closer everyone gets to "perfection" the harder it is for one to dominate.
It was more likely that one would dominate back in the days than it is now (if you agree that we as humans actually have limitations to how well we can possibly play starcraft, even though its impossible to determine that exact point there must be one).
Since our skill can only move between the weakest and strongest possible point in skill-level its more likely that one players skill is far ahead of others when we still have much to improve. Once the players get closer to the highest point it's less likely that one would be far ahead of others.
The same way it's more likely to dominate now than it would be five years from now if SC is still played. We're simply closer to perfection now than 5 years ago at playing starcraft. I would think it works this way in everything we do, not just starcraft.
On April 18 2010 06:11 StylishVODs wrote: I think Flash's dominance is more impressive than oovs. Simply because it's less likely. (the most impressive thing with oov was that he always won finals as far as I can remember..)
The reason for it is that we are humans, we have limitations. The closer everyone gets to "perfection" the harder it is for one to dominate.
It was more likely that one would dominate back in the days than it is now (if you agree that we as humans actually have limitations to how well we can possibly play starcraft, even though its impossible to determine that exact point there must be one).
Since our skill can only move between the weakest and strongest possible point in skill-level its more likely that one players skill is far ahead of others when we still have much to improve. Once the players get closer to the highest point it's less likely that one would be far ahead of others.
The same way it's more likely to dominate now than it would be five years from now if SC is still played. We're simply closer to perfection now than 5 years ago at playing starcraft. I would think it works this way in everything we do, not just starcraft.
This expresses what I was thinking reading through this debate. Yes, to say that iloveoov's competition was a "joke" is silly. But Flash's dominance is indeed more impressive. Relative skill matters, but absolute skill matters too.
Flash's streaks are amazing. As noted by someone earlier, 60% of flash's Z losses have been to THE DONG himself. I personally believe that if flash can put away Jaedong, he'll secure his place in history (not that he already hasn't, you know what i mean).
On April 18 2010 09:05 Jugan wrote: Flash's streaks are amazing. As noted by someone earlier, 60% of flash's Z losses have been to THE DONG himself. I personally believe that if flash can put away Jaedong, he'll secure his place in history (not that he already hasn't, you know what i mean).
ye 60% of his losses was from the MSL fail finals:O The best thing about flash is that he very rarely lose to scrubs which gives him the ability to maintain such high winning percentage and thus keep such high ELO score. The bad thing is that everyone is a scrub ELOwise now compared to flash, even jaedong so it'll be tought to raise it further lol
On April 18 2010 09:39 TwoToneTerran wrote: Not really. He gets 5 or more points from the other top elo people. Hell, Hwasin just gave him like 4 despite barely being top 20 Elo.
ye he gets 5 points or so from the other top elo players. thats proving my point:O heck he's 120~ elo above #2. And the rest of the top gamers are about 2200 which gives flash a 200 ELO lead. Isn't that pretty remarkable?
On April 18 2010 09:39 TwoToneTerran wrote: Not really. He gets 5 or more points from the other top elo people. Hell, Hwasin just gave him like 4 despite barely being top 20 Elo.
ye he gets 5 points or so from the other top elo players. thats proving my point:O heck he's 120~ elo above #2. And the rest of the top gamers are about 2200 which gives flash a 200 ELO lead. Isn't that pretty remarkable?
Well I mean, people keep saying how he'll have to get 20 straight wins or some garbage to pass his elo peak everytime he drops a game when it isn't true. Almost no Elo system will have someone who can't get a reasonable amount of points from beating the other top players.
I mean, short of being like 60% higher than the #2, which is just silly.
People talk about the 'aura' of a dominant player, Flash has that right now.
Just look at the last OSL winner interviews (OSL R16 Day 6). Not once did the interviewers ask a single question about Flash to anyone, but all four of the players brought up and talked about Flash on their own. They know what's up.
On April 18 2010 10:51 Hinanawi wrote: People talk about the 'aura' of a dominant player, Flash has that right now.
Just look at the last OSL winner interviews (OSL R16 Day 6). Not once did the interviewers ask a single question about Flash to anyone, but all four of the players brought up and talked about Flash on their own. They know what's up.
QFT
Flash dominance is insane right now, people who face him knows what's gonna happen.
The reason Jaedong beat Flash in the MSL was because Flash was busy practicing for the OSL. I bet if Flash concentrated on beating Jaedong he woulda won that. Im a bigger fan of Jaedong then Flash but really, you can't deny that Flash is a absolute beast right now. 90% Winrate vs Toss in the OP really proves it.
On April 17 2010 09:30 MuffinDude wrote: oov still did better than flash against vz =D
I want to give more credit to Flash because I feel that overall competition is tougher now than the times of oov's domination.
Why does Flash deserve more credit? Competition will always be tougher as time passes since the game evolves and new players benefit from the experience of the past, are mechanically better, etc., and as such, Flash's opponents are stronger than Oovs at his prime, but Flash has also benefited from all that. If you don't take this into account then there are no means to compare current players to past players as current player will always be overall better.
On April 17 2010 09:32 OneOther wrote: I mean it's unbelievable. The fact that he's doing that against many of other top progamers is...unreal.
On April 17 2010 09:30 MuffinDude wrote: oov still did better than flash against vz =D
I want to give more credit to Flash because I feel that overall competition is tougher now than the times of oov's domination.
Why does Flash deserve more credit? Competition will always be tougher as time passes since the game evolves and new players benefit from the experience of the past, are mechanically better, etc., and as such, Flash's opponents are stronger than Oovs at his prime, but Flash has also benefited from all that. If you don't take this into account then there are no means to compare current players to past players as current player will always be overall better.
QFT
you say what i wanted to say only better.
And on another note, Flash is definatly looking more bonjwa that jaedong or bisu have ever done. If he gets another title and advances further in MSL than jeadong i would definatly call him bonjwa.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes.
It is all about relative skills.
Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p
Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively.
Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***.
It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages).
I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied.
Regardless of how close their relative skill levels may be, Flash's skill is much more impressive, and so are his opponents' skill levels. I do not see how this doesn't equate to his streak being much more impressive. It's like your giving the older players sympathy merit.
Example:
Federer's skill at tennis = 100 Nadal's skill = 95
My skill at tennis = 10 Opponent's skill = 5
What you're trying to say is that a five game streak: federer over nadal is just as impressive as a five game streak: me over another noob? The same difficulty, maybe, but as impressive? No. Federer has to play absolutely amazing tennis to beat Nadal. I could be neglecting the time difference in this argument, but honestly I don't think it really matters.
edit: I guess it makes sense that their streaks could be comparable with the time difference added in. Essentially, the evolution of the game didn't allow oov to be as good as Flash back then, even if he tried twice as hard. But like I said, it just doesn't matter to me. Old baseball records that were broken aren't as impressive to me as the new ones although the mounds used to be higher and the balls were like well rounded rocks. This is why Babe Ruth is a goddamn legend.
Of course if I'm understanding you wrong, let me know.
On April 18 2010 10:51 Hinanawi wrote: People talk about the 'aura' of a dominant player, Flash has that right now.
Just look at the last OSL winner interviews (OSL R16 Day 6). Not once did the interviewers ask a single question about Flash to anyone, but all four of the players brought up and talked about Flash on their own. They know what's up.
QFT
Flash dominance is insane right now, people who face him knows what's gonna happen.
The reason Jaedong beat Flash in the MSL was because Flash was busy practicing for the OSL. I bet if Flash concentrated on beating Jaedong he woulda won that. Im a bigger fan of Jaedong then Flash but really, you can't deny that Flash is a absolute beast right now. 90% Winrate vs Toss in the OP really proves it.
Jaedong beat Flash because he played better then Flash did, not busy practicing for the OSL or anything.
Saturday 27th Jan (I think), Jaedong faced Kal in the MSL Semi, so he'd have to practice for ZvP.
The next day, Flash faced Movie in the OSL.
So in the end, they had relatively even amounts of time to practice for the match.
Jaedong won because he had better preparation then Flash, not because Flash didn't concentrate on facing Jaedong.
On April 18 2010 10:51 Hinanawi wrote: People talk about the 'aura' of a dominant player, Flash has that right now.
Just look at the last OSL winner interviews (OSL R16 Day 6). Not once did the interviewers ask a single question about Flash to anyone, but all four of the players brought up and talked about Flash on their own. They know what's up.
QFT
Flash dominance is insane right now, people who face him knows what's gonna happen.
The reason Jaedong beat Flash in the MSL was because Flash was busy practicing for the OSL. I bet if Flash concentrated on beating Jaedong he woulda won that. Im a bigger fan of Jaedong then Flash but really, you can't deny that Flash is a absolute beast right now. 90% Winrate vs Toss in the OP really proves it.
Jaedong beat Flash because he played better then Flash did, not busy practicing for the OSL or anything.
Saturday 27th Jan (I think), Jaedong faced Kal in the MSL Semi, so he'd have to practice for ZvP.
The next day, Flash faced Movie in the OSL.
So in the end, they had relatively even amounts of time to practice for the match.
Jaedong won because he had better preparation then Flash, not because Flash didn't concentrate on facing Jaedong.
With a help of infamous PO though.
But I agree that Jaedong seemed to be better prepared having crafted some interesting builds. However, I would love to see what would happen if there was no problems with MBC's virtual studio...
im a bisu fan and i always wanted him to become the best, maybe also the next bonjwa. i believed in him until he dropped out of OSL (he will win MSL though). but now i know that he lost. he clearly lost against Flash. think of every races best player. jaedong, probably stork. Flash is at least one class above them. its scary if you know your favorite player will play against him.
hoping for an epic bisu vs flash final when they call flash the next bonjwa, it would be time to kill the king again for bisu.
I think the MSL finals last season was a very symbolic series that in a way signified a shift of power. Jaedong was long considered the best player that year, and Flash was making tremendous strides to overcome him. It was obvious by the end of the season Flash had equaled Jaedong in terms of development and skill, if not already surpassed him. And pretty much everyone wanted to see if the banners on the throne of the king of starcraft would change from bugs to humans.
Whether Flash won or lost is not reflected in his play after the fact; he became the stronger player and is now the best starcraft player (I don't think anyone can deny that). It is unfortunated that the night that was supposed to be one of the best nights of starcraft ended up being the worst let-down EVER.
But clearly, Flash is reigning supreme, and we can only see how far he'll take his rule in this season, which very clearly might be the last season before sc2 comes out.
On April 17 2010 14:46 superbabosheki wrote: How can oov even be compared to Flash? Flash plays Starcraft in the day and age where every programer is goooooood. The caliber of his opponents are so much higher than what oov had to play against all those years ago. If Starcraft2 never came out and BW still went on strong, nobody else would ever match what Flash has done this past year.
Seriously when you look at the chart on the OP, count the amount of big name players compared to no name players. It's insane how consisently Flash beat people like Kal, Stork, Movie, Calm, Kwanro(Okay, maybe not this kid), and all the Terrans basically.
back in the age of oov every progamer was gooooooood also. its about skill relative to your peers not absolute skill. in years from now if starcraft is still going strong we'll look back at the way the players that play now and think that theyre terrible as well, but that won't make flash any less of an impressive player even if he completely drops off.
Sorry, but super is right. The reason he is right is because Flash plays in an age where mistakes are much more punished than they were in oov's day. It's not about relative skill, it's straight up harder to win when every player has developed the skills to punish you much more harshly for your mistakes.
It is all about relative skills.
Let's assume two time frames: 1. current, c 2. past, p
Let's assume flash's level of play is F_c, and oov's level of play was O_p Let's further assume that the average level of play is A_c, and A_p for current and past respectively.
Given the win percentages, we deduce that (F_c - A_c) is very close to (O_p - A_p) ***.
It doesn't matter if F_c > A_c >> O_p > A_p; in order to achieve dominance, you have to be that much better than the rest. The two players' dominances of the scene are equally impressive given the fact that how much they are better than all the other players (gauged by their winning percentages).
I acknowledge that this is a really dumbed down (very wrong) analysis, but I suspect the results would be similar even if advance statistical methods are applied.
I tried really hard to follow your logic but I just ended up think of Flash making a F_c twitch face and it went downhill from there.
Flash kinda feels like bonwja (not saying he is but it feels like) right now even tho I still think Jaedong would have a chance against Flash in a bo5 - since Jaedong's so good in preparing for matches like that. Anyhow it's the way how flash wins and even loses his games. When Jaedong was winning left and right at his prime it always felt like he's totally playing on the edge and the game could go either way. Flash nowadays is just totally steamrolling everyone. When you watch him play you do it in awe and there is never the feeling he might lose. I haven't had that feeling since oov (maybe savior came close). And that's what a bonwja is for me, it's not about titles.
Flash's play since the nuking of Savior in the All-Star games has been something amazing. I hope Jaedong returns to form sometime soon. Partially due to them, and the fans, being cheated out of what should have been a drama and mistake free Bo5, but more so due to the fact Jaedong is the only person to prove they can stand up to, and defeat Flash. I liked watching both stomp through the league as much as the next person, but I like watching them be tested even more.
On April 20 2010 06:02 Keniji wrote: Flash kinda feels like bonwja (not saying he is but it feels like) right now even tho I still think Jaedong would have a chance against Flash in a bo5 - since Jaedong's so good in preparing for matches like that. Anyhow it's the way how flash wins and even loses his games. When Jaedong was winning left and right at his prime it always felt like he's totally playing on the edge and the game could go either way. Flash nowadays is just totally steamrolling everyone. When you watch him play you do it in awe and there is never the feeling he might lose. I haven't had that feeling since oov (maybe savior came close). And that's what a bonwja is for me, it's not about titles.
I totally agree Flash is totally dominating most of his opponents and making it look effortless.
On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote: I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol
Well TvZ used to be his strongest and now it's his weakest according to these statistics. So maybe he started practicing his TvP instead of his TvZ.
Keep in mind 60% of the losses referred to there are vs Jaedong, including that final where one of the games was negatively affected by what had happened with the power outage and stuff...
I don't think the stats really show his TvZ being weaker particularly.
75% winrate is still amazingly sick.
i lol'd when 60% of his losses come from jaedong! in tvz of course
On April 17 2010 08:17 pevenariola wrote: I remember when people said flah's tvp was his weakest line-up, but according to the statistics it was actually his strongest. lol
Well TvZ used to be his strongest and now it's his weakest according to these statistics. So maybe he started practicing his TvP instead of his TvZ.
Keep in mind 60% of the losses referred to there are vs Jaedong, including that final where one of the games was negatively affected by what had happened with the power outage and stuff...
I don't think the stats really show his TvZ being weaker particularly.
75% winrate is still amazingly sick.
i lol'd when 60% of his losses come from jaedong! in tvz of course
And by 60% of losses he means 3 games :O That's just insane...
Flash has no less rights than iloveoov to be called 'bonjwa'.
Yeah, you can start talking that 'he is not dominant since there exists Jaedong, etc', but I would answer that iloveoov had his own 'Jaedong' named JulyZerg, who beat iloveoov at his prime and took OSL gold before iloveoov himself. You can start talking about Bisu, Stork and other protosses, but I would remind you about Reach who was also regularly beating iloveoov.
So, if someone gave to iloveoov the bonjwa title, he could give the same title on the same grounds to Flash.
On April 22 2010 08:42 iloahz wrote: tbh I think flash would completely rape JD if they play right now.
Nah. As incredible as Flash is (close to bonjwa), Jaedong is a COMPLETE different animal in BO5. It would be close. His ability to prepare for a series is simply amazing, as shown in their last series in MSL Finals.
Flash has seriously been ripping it up so well lately. Whenever he loses, i look out my window to make sure the world isn't ending. He's just that ind of player. I think hes gonna be able to take the golden mouse and steal jaedong's title as "youngest to receive golden mouse" =D
On April 20 2010 00:33 Zato-1 wrote: If Flash wins both the upcoming OSL and MSL, I'll call him bonjwa.
What the hell.
I don't think people realize just how difficult winning simultaneous OSL/MSL's are. It's so difficult in fact that only ONE PERSON has ever managed to do it. EVER.
As of now only 2 players are withing 200 point range of flash (elo wise).
Once upon a time 2300 was considered almost unreachable, 2200 S-class. If 2200 is the region where it's getting hard to breathe, and 2300 the very top of the mountain, then Flash has been gently floating in a high orbit around planet Broodwar for the last months. It looks pretty damn good for a dual title... (If JD and Sea lose some of their next games we might even see Flash with a 200 point lead on second rank.)
On April 17 2010 12:05 Highways wrote: lol bonjwa?? He still needs way more titles.
Dominance doesn't mean much if you cannot bring home the titles.
Doesn't it??
IMO if he is owning people all the time but gets unlucky in the major competitions he's still the fucking king, titles or no.
Like if every other progamer says "flash is better than me" and flash wins like 99.9% of his games but due to freak occurrences/poor coping with pressure abilities he never wins ONE title EVER then I think he is still the bonjwa. Titles mean SHIT imo.
Seriously though, Flash right now is just playing on a whole 'nother level. He understands the game, bottom to top, and the maps are making it so that T is still pretty good. Even though no such thing as a bonjwa exists anymore, he is as close as you can get without following the pattern. He just straight up looks unbeatable right now, except possibly by JD. I'm not sure who from the protoss side would even have a shot against him (Kal, except he's been inconsistent....)
On April 23 2010 03:18 StylishVODs wrote: Flash is only bonjwa if he gets 3 MSL and 3 OSL gold in a row while keeping 90% winration atleast during that time.
It's funny because this seems to be how some people literally think
On April 17 2010 08:34 Trezeguet23 wrote: Just goes to show that he can beat everyone but Jaedong.
Ahaha, if only they could play right now so Flash could utterly destroy the shit outta Jaedong and shut his fan boys up.
Flash has gotten dismantled in every bo5 they've played.
:/
When was the last time Jaedong lost a bo5? I don't know if I've ever seen it happen, now that I think of it
He lost to Calm 1-3 in the semifinals of the MSL that Calm won.
...Right before destroying Fantasy and Yarnc and winning the Golden Mouse.
Edit: He also lost in the finals of the Arena MSL to ForGG. Those two are his only Bo5 defeats in starleagues. (The loss to Rock was in some kind of qualifying league wasn't it?)
On April 23 2010 03:18 StylishVODs wrote: Flash is only bonjwa if he gets 3 MSL and 3 OSL gold in a row while keeping 90% winration atleast during that time.
95% winrate and I'll call him a bonjwa, he can't be a bonjwa with just 90%.
On April 17 2010 10:19 f10esqftw wrote: It probably took someone less than a week to beat the Brood War campaign.... now, over 10 years later, Flash has finally beaten the multiplayer as well.
On April 17 2010 12:05 Highways wrote: lol bonjwa?? He still needs way more titles.
Dominance doesn't mean much if you cannot bring home the titles.
Doesn't it??
IMO if he is owning people all the time but gets unlucky in the major competitions he's still the fucking king, titles or no.
Like if every other progamer says "flash is better than me" and flash wins like 99.9% of his games but due to freak occurrences/poor coping with pressure abilities he never wins ONE title EVER then I think he is still the bonjwa. Titles mean SHIT imo.
Why stop at disregarding titles? We may as well disregard all televised games
yooi and magma were clearly bonjwas. they just got unlucky and couldn't cope with pressure
On April 17 2010 12:05 Highways wrote: lol bonjwa?? He still needs way more titles.
Dominance doesn't mean much if you cannot bring home the titles.
Doesn't it??
IMO if he is owning people all the time but gets unlucky in the major competitions he's still the fucking king, titles or no.
Like if every other progamer says "flash is better than me" and flash wins like 99.9% of his games but due to freak occurrences/poor coping with pressure abilities he never wins ONE title EVER then I think he is still the bonjwa. Titles mean SHIT imo.
Why stop at disregarding titles? We may as well disregard all televised games
yooi and magma were clearly bonjwas. they just got unlucky and couldn't cope with pressure
Haven't seen enough games to be able to comment on that I'm afraid, but if what you are saying is true then yeah I would view those guys as bonjwas. Anyone who is tearing up the best of the best with a 80/90 + % winrate is clearly a god.
Bonjwa argument has always been shit but who cares. Anyone actually watching Starcraft right now without rose tinted glassed can see Flash pretty much rolling everyone as hard as Oov did in his prime, if not harder.
Bonjwa or not, he's clearly the best player right now by far even if he lost the NATE MSL to Jaedong.
On April 17 2010 10:19 f10esqftw wrote: It probably took someone less than a week to beat the Brood War campaign.... now, over 10 years later, Flash has finally beaten the multiplayer as well.
Flash is not even 18. If he wins a few starleagues he's going to be called bonjwa for sure. If he doesn't win any it's going to be a big disappointment and being a bonjwa won't be much of a consolation.
ok to put it simply because starcraft has reached a level of perfection that is so ridiculous ie compare iloveoovs time to flashes time it is easier mathematically to dominate in a time where everything is not figured out by jsut being smarter but flash being in a time where hell opens over 1 mistake and you literally look the devil in the face due to that mistake you need to compare this if every player has a level palying field and flash is dismantling these level palyers left and right therefore flash's run is more impressive then oovs when the playing field wasn't but overall flash is better mechanically the kids a beast but this is what separates him from the other bonjwas so called he just doesnt seem to ever go away oh he mgiht slump bam 20-6 and hes back in form it isnt whether hes bad its more to say hes the best as yet to come if starcraft continues and he continues this for 4 more years he will ironclad be settled as the greatest sc palyer ever oov never had that chance
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