EPTBWcoach Release! - Page 4
| Forum Index > BW General |
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
My favourite options in it are the alarm for high minerals, low apm, and supply defeciency! I find my own sounds... it's really cooll... I haven't really made use of the build order following function, but I'm sure it's useful for beginners. Suggestion: The supply message is annoying because it remains there until I get sufficient supply. I think it should blink once every user defined time when the player doesn't have enough. | ||
|
SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On March 20 2004 20:12 MadduX wrote: Well then, we should all start using maphack as a training tool!  | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
BWCoach does NOT give you ANY information about your opponent. Maphack does. This is obviously the main point that seperates the two, one gives you information that you could not OTHERWISE POSSIBLY know (maphack), while the other gives information that you probably DO know (build order). I tried the program, and I could not find a use replay to training file, which is probably what it would be used for. I think this program is quite frankly overhyped, and even I got caught up in it. We have to stepback and look at what it is really doing: It is telling you how to do Build Orders. It is telling you to build supply depots. While I do agree that "build depot now" gives you an advantage, and hence, similar to APM Live, many people do not support it, I think that this problem can be rectified by simply a message that states: This player is running BW Coach. Obviously, it is JCA's call whether to implement this, and since BW Coach beta is alerady out those that have already owned this could not be forced to upgrade, etc, problem. Before we all cry Armageddon, however, lets look at the top right display of the starcraft in-game screen. Many people don't look at this, and you can tell when they have 1.8k + mineral/gas (weak joke, yeah). There is a a/b number there, and then a little logo that signifies your raace. Did you know that when a+8>b you should build a supply depot? This information is clearly accessible to the player, as well as build orders (replay function). BWCoach is merely making this information clearer to see. Again, Maphack does not do this, and gives you information that you should NOT know. Also, maphack does not improve your skill, which is what a training tool does. It improves your game, but people that maphack rarely use it as a "training" tool (which basically has no application as such), and therefore become dependent (which does share a potential common bond with coach) on it, and it decreases skill. I already know you know this and I know your point is not to advocate maphack, but to say that the same dependency problem can occur with BWCoach. Ok, in summary a) maphack =/ bwcoach in purpose and what it provides b) bwcoach provides an advantage to users of bwcoach (through the supply and apm reminders), but not one that is unable to be gotten without it. c) this can be prevented by a message stating the user is using bwcoach at the start of the game This may be slightly contradictory to the previous post, but like i said, veteran players know build orders, they don't miss depots, they spend money. These are all skills that can be acquired WITHOUT bwcoach, and are TRAINED with it. Thanks for reading, especially Physician, I really appreciate the feedback. | ||
|
Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
Take that logic and project it to where we are now. Everyone here is strongly anti map hack, yet the exact same logic can be applied to map hacking. You can go and download a map hack too. And map hack is only useful at your level. It wouldn't do Boxer any good to have a map hack, the only important games he plays are live anyways. Boxer probably doesn't give a shit if some random fag on bnet hacks against him, he can rape him anyways, and if anyone good hacks against him, more's the better, he get's a better practice opponent, and a loss on bnet means NOTHING to him. So I guess all of us who bitch about hackers should shut the fuck up about it, since it wouldn't affect pro gaming. Hacking makes people like Trek and Testie play better too, so it's clearly accomplishing it's goal. Map hacks must be awesome and we should shower their creators with praise. Get it through your skulls guys, bwcoach is hacking, just in another form aimed at a slightly different target audience. You can't bitch about a map hack in one breath and then praise this in the next. | ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
One could also argue, using the same principles that you use, that maphack doesnt provide an advantage that a player cannot otherwise get: any good player would have enough scouting and knowledge to be able to know what he is doing. No one misses zero depots. If some cheats are ok, but otheres arn't, where do we draw the line? | ||
|
MannerLess_
Brazil535 Posts
On March 20 2004 22:03 Hautamaki wrote: Maddux and Sliggy are right. This is a third party program whose sole purpose is to make someone better at Starcraft. Everyone who says 'this program will only help newbies' is missing the point. The POINT is that this is a third party program which will make you play better. That is it's intention. Lets suppose you ARE a newbie and you're playing against newbies in newbie only games. Suppose some other newbies have bwcoach and they beat you. Is it any consolation to you that you can download and use it too? Is it any consolation to you that it only helps people at your level, newbie. Take that logic and project it to where we are now. Everyone here is strongly anti map hack, yet the exact same logic can be applied to map hacking. You can go and download a map hack too. And map hack is only useful at your level. It wouldn't do Boxer any good to have a map hack, the only important games he plays are live anyways. Boxer probably doesn't give a shit if some random fag on bnet hacks against him, he can rape him anyways, and if anyone good hacks against him, more's the better, he get's a better practice opponent, and a loss on bnet means NOTHING to him. So I guess all of us who bitch about hackers should shut the fuck up about it, since it wouldn't affect pro gaming. Hacking makes people like Trek and Testie play better too, so it's clearly accomplishing it's goal. Map hacks must be awesome and we should shower their creators with praise. Get it through your skulls guys, bwcoach is hacking, just in another form aimed at a slightly different target audience. You can't bitch about a map hack in one breath and then praise this in the next. I'll second that...  | ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
~As much as I despise map hacks you have a point ~ but using a map hack to learn will give you so many bad habbits that will be very hard to get rid of ~ you will however learn faster than others with less effort. This speed of the learning curve, of die hard map hackers, is higher than then non hacker. You are quite correct. This was specially true in the pre-replay era. I have often started suspecting someone because of the the speed he is learning ~ albeit some are more gifted that others but within reasonable limits. But then how many countless of ex map hackers have you heard say ~ "I play much better without a map hack, that shit is for newbies" OR "Map hacking made the game so boring for me I quit or I almost quit" Yes using BWcoach, BWchart, listening to RWA's, asking for better players advice, having a friend coach you and watching good replays will all help you to learn faster. But all these way are FUN! The difference? In one you cheat and in the others you do not. In one you steal a game in the others you learn the game. Plus bottom line you do not need a map hack ~ ask a friend who plays much better than you and ask him hey tvt give me vision so I can copy ur build order? or ~ Can u show me some of your terran build orders by me imitating them with u giving me vision? Hey dam! Is it not what BWcoach does? You do not have to cheat to learn. You get my point don't you? Its a question of not lying, not cheating and just being honest man. Final question: CAn you use BWcoach!! to help you cheat in a game? If you have tried it ~ no ~LOL. If you win with this thing on ~ $hit man, my hat off to that some one ~ they have an amazing atention span ~ their opponent did everything they were supposed to do, to lose and they live in fairy broodwar land. (Final SOlution for those that live in fairy broodwar land ~ let BWcoach warn your opponent that ur using BWcoach) I will talk to JCa about this. Anyways ~ thanks Maddox (and making it perfectly clear: I never implied that you hacked or that you used a map hack ~ just in case you read fast and start flame war!) edited ~upps sorry it was bwcoach | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
Tell me that in PvZ. Hautamaki raised an excellent point, but I would like to note that, replays and RWAs do the same thing. They help you learn tactics and know what build orders are acceptable and that 4 pylon 4 forget 4 cannon is not. Further, the genre newbies (and i hestitate to use it as it has a very bad connotation [especially when talking about people who do nothing to deserve this title {flame, etc}]) is unlikely to use BWCoach, and if they did, they probably had access to progaming replays which they watched as well. Again, I would like to say that I agree with you (hence my call for the "using coach message", just want to say that its not as bad as you're maknig it out. "Final question: CAn you use BWchart to help you cheat in a game? If you have tried it ~ no ~LOL. If you win with this thing on ~ $hit man, my hat off to that some one ~ they have an amazing atention span ~ their opponent did everything they were supposed to do, to lose and they live in fairy broodwar land." (BWChart? Even when substituting BWCoah for that, I really don't understand what you are meaning). | ||
|
Na[12]Sil
United States192 Posts
| ||
|
Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
On March 20 2004 19:52 exalted wrote: Uh, I'm going to try to answer this, becuase I don't feel this reduces skill in any way. (I know this is a very split debate, JUST like apm, so you can feel free to flame shamelessly). 1. People are relatively stupid, but not THAT stupid. Once they take the big leap of moving from BGH to Lost Temple, this will help them get an idea of what they NEED to be doing. Now, YES, some people may get addicted, but those kinds of people wouldn't get good without the program ANYWAYS. Further, the "newbies" that really have the drive to get good will have the intelligence (and hopefully advice) that points them into the direction of countering builds and more about timing. This is VERY similar to BWchart and the replay function - > there are many players that try to "copy" Nada macro, EVERYONE is walling in, why? Not becuase they "figured" it out, so saying that this program takes away creativity is unfair and should not take all of the blame. Again, I reiterate, those players that constantly do so will not only develop a weakness to playing only on Lost Temple, they will not be able to deal wtih change fast enough intuitively to do well in high level games. 2. Ok, this is very unlogical. Yes, it will improve your macro probably. I play on fastest possible /bgh occasionally to improve my macro. I'm not going to claim I'm good, but who's going to leave becuase somoene knows how to do a proper 2 fac vult now? This doesn't micro for you, and the advantage is only early-game, in which an experienced player has ALREADY learned this knowledge. The only possible valid argument that can be twisted from this is that we (the people without BWCoach) were unable to have this aid so they can learn faster than us (the early basics). 3. "raped?" I think that 99% of the apm haters say that speed is irrelevant, tactics are 200% more important. (Just to tangent alittle, i completely agree, but I feel that apm (and hotkeying, a lot of the apm haters do NOT hotkey) is completely necessary, and I can always use the undefeatable argument: nada apms 300 just to look good?) Moving on, if anything, like you said, the newbies won't be able to play properly and do the same build every game. This is contardictory to the other statement that you said. "High" level players do not need this. Therefore, this dosen't take away from the game. 4. We all use BWCoach and RWA case closed. A couple thoughts of my own about the program (I will be testing it more as a more fluid program is released): I think that it will dumb down creativity a little, but right now tvp is just 2fac vult/fact port / fact (bay) expo. There is no wraith, bbs, or infantry rush any more. Its not like players are trying to be craetive and this program is shutting them down. I think it will improve skill level among mid-level players (which is basically the entire TL forum.) I suggest that we all try the program (if you are comfortable with it) before we continue to flame hardworking JCA, who has provided us with so many useful tools. My Response: 1) I dont even understand your argument so i cant respond, your saying people will counter because BWCoach tells them to so its ok? 2) not just 1 person, but eventually people will get pissed off that everyone seems to play flawlessly with this program. Imagine playing 10 1v1 and you lost every one of them because some guy spent his money, which usually he would not have been able to do. Its only helping people to improve? So do steroids, but they are banned. 3) again, i dont know what the fuck your on about. I pretty much stopped trying to figure it out when you said speed is irrelevant. 4) rofl, you really are quite the fuckign retard. Do you use BWChart while your in a game to enhance how you play? Do you use RWA while your in a game to enhance how you play? Do you understand what a 3rd party program that enhances your gameplay is? Fuck me, you have NO right to call people stupid like you did in your 1) response. | ||
|
Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
On March 20 2004 22:03 Hautamaki wrote: Maddux and Sliggy are right. This is a third party program whose sole purpose is to make someone better at Starcraft. Everyone who says 'this program will only help newbies' is missing the point. The POINT is that this is a third party program which will make you play better. That is it's intention. Lets suppose you ARE a newbie and you're playing against newbies in newbie only games. Suppose some other newbies have bwcoach and they beat you. Is it any consolation to you that you can download and use it too? Is it any consolation to you that it only helps people at your level, newbie. Take that logic and project it to where we are now. Everyone here is strongly anti map hack, yet the exact same logic can be applied to map hacking. You can go and download a map hack too. And map hack is only useful at your level. It wouldn't do Boxer any good to have a map hack, the only important games he plays are live anyways. Boxer probably doesn't give a shit if some random fag on bnet hacks against him, he can rape him anyways, and if anyone good hacks against him, more's the better, he get's a better practice opponent, and a loss on bnet means NOTHING to him. So I guess all of us who bitch about hackers should shut the fuck up about it, since it wouldn't affect pro gaming. Hacking makes people like Trek and Testie play better too, so it's clearly accomplishing it's goal. Map hacks must be awesome and we should shower their creators with praise. Get it through your skulls guys, bwcoach is hacking, just in another form aimed at a slightly different target audience. You can't bitch about a map hack in one breath and then praise this in the next.  this is what ive been trying to say. | ||
|
Dave[9]
United States2365 Posts
| ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
And exalted: count lings. Bottom Line: BWCoach gives one player an advantage over another who is not using it. It is a third party program. It is a cheat, and should not be allowed, or even distributed (too late for that, GJ JCA!) | ||
|
SunShine
Netherlands787 Posts
On March 21 2004 00:04 MadduX wrote: No most of us dont care about the build order thing, we have problems with the program giving you alerts when you are messing up. And exalted: count lings. Bottom Line: BWCoach gives one player an advantage over another who is not using it. It is a third party program. It is a cheat, and should not be allowed, or even distributed (too late for that, GJ JCA!) i agree with that + i think this program should have a warning msge at start of game like hanstar maphack detection has so ppl in wgtour cant use it. i think if top players used it just to watch their mineral count even they would get better. its a 3rd party program so its not allowed on bnet. i hope blizzard will ban the accounts using this program at the next bann period. BUT ATLEAST GIVE IT A WARNING SIGNAL so ppl can avoid playing another computer oponent wich they quit doing years ago | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
1) I dont even understand your argument so i cant respond, your saying people will counter because BWCoach tells them to so its ok? I said, that people will not be ABLE to counter if they just follow the BO that BWcoach gives them in a real 1v1, so the only benefit coach does is show them when to build thinsg with more ease than studying BWchart replay and finding at what time they built what. The opponent can just micro his probe around, and counter accordingly. 2) not just 1 person, but eventually people will get pissed off that everyone seems to play flawlessly with this program. Imagine playing 10 1v1 and you lost every one of them because some guy spent his money, which usually he would not have been able to do. Its only helping people to improve? So do steroids, but they are banned. Have you even tried the program? People cannot play FLAWLESSLY with this program. Your macro doesn't suddenly nada up. You still miss depots. Imagine playing 10 1v1 vs people who can spend their money? Oh, the horror of playing good people? Are you seriously that worried that the level of competition will increase? In that case, that is a good worry. About the steroid remark, I don't usually like to compare broodwar to other things, becuase its usually like apples and oranges, but I really don't know how to respond to this becuase they are different genres. 3) again, i dont know what the fuck your on about. I pretty much stopped trying to figure it out when you said speed is irrelevant. Actually, if you read carefully, i said that apm matters, hence why nada apms 300+ instead of 90 like the apm haters. I believe firmly in apm, but tactics are much more important. 4) rofl, you really are quite the fuckign retard. Do you use BWChart while your in a game to enhance how you play? Do you use RWA while your in a game to enhance how you play? Do you understand what a 3rd party program that enhances your gameplay is? Fuck me, you have NO right to call people stupid like you did in your 1) response. Uh...and you do? I really don't get the logic in that. And RWA and BWchart enhances your play, not while you play, but it increases your skill level. I seriously suggest you to try the program, even if it be against your morals, before you start a flame of this magnitude. Its quite appalling that once I provide a valid argument, they resort to personal flames. I"m specifically talking about Maddux suggesting me to count lings. Seriously, there is more than one side to every topic. Referring to Sunshine's post, "i think if top players used it just to watch their mineral count even they would get better." As opposed to looking at the top right of their screen to see how much minerals are in their bank? The only valid point is that the 3rd party programs are illegal. But, everyone uses 3rd party programs like apm live and bwchart, I don't see how they can use this argument without being hypocritical. Like I've said several times, there need to be changes, but its not right to flame someone's work without at least trying it. It's highly disrespectful and many times unfounded. I didn't see you guys bitching about Lasgo's Observer Pack. | ||
|
Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
Basically, a person using it will have an advantage over a person NOT using it. Thats my beef with it. Also, it directly breaks blizzards no hack rule. Im done with this thread, debate all you like. my opinion is set. | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
And yes, it will give you an advantage --v. However, its intended purpose and what it is benefiting you in turned out to be unexpectedly different (the main problem taht people have with it is how it helps you remember depots and to use your money). I tried, it, it pops up a little beep and has a small text message on the top left saying, spend more / build depot, its only slightly more blatant than checking the supply and mineral numbers. It still is unfair, and yeah message, blah blah. Other than that, it gives you NO advantage. It def. does not live to the hype right now (most of the hype bad, however), and I was surpsied to see how people proclaimed the fall of starcraft becuase of the possibility of nwebies knowing how to build. That's it, I think that this post has been drawn out as well, some closing arguments, another thanks to JCA for continuing to help with his tools. | ||
|
STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
| ||
|
SunShine
Netherlands787 Posts
so to make it eze -build orders from bwcoach are no hack -mineral+supply advice = equal to hack | ||
| ||
