EPTBWcoach: The BGH solution?
http://www.starcraftgamers.com/index.php
BWcoach Release!
| Forum Index > BW General |
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
BWcoach: The BGH solution? http://www.starcraftgamers.com/index.php | ||
|
Refrain[FriZ]
Canada4337 Posts
| ||
|
radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
| ||
|
T_T
Vatican City State593 Posts
go grab your copy here: http://www.bwchart.net/us/bwcoach.php | ||
|
nullmind
1303 Posts
| ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
~Jca u the man! http://www.starcraftgamers.com/index.php | ||
|
radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
at many points wanted to "take over", but decided to stick to it  It should say when it's over, cause I was just sitting there for like half a minute waiting for directions :O | ||
|
ZorAptoR
Switzerland926 Posts
| ||
|
hAtE.eTeRniTy
Germany33 Posts
 .But ok for first realase  | ||
|
AutumnLight
Ukraine2488 Posts
| ||
|
GooDGaMe
United States989 Posts
| ||
|
GooDGaMe
United States989 Posts
| ||
|
Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
| ||
|
x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
On March 20 2004 11:31 Peatza wrote: If todays brood war players use this right and get bw communitys BGH and Fastest players to use bwcouch to enlight their skill. Brood war will get a great upswing in skill. Indeed. | ||
|
MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
Helps. | ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
Na[12]Sil
United States192 Posts
| ||
|
Stygg
Sweden1100 Posts
| ||
|
hAtE.eTeRniTy
Germany33 Posts
| ||
|
Cygnus
United States844 Posts
...and I bet if you starting using this a lot it would really hurt your game, forceing you to play like a machine and making you perdictable, I think I will just stick to leaving build orders in my brain... where they belong. | ||
|
sata
Sweden127 Posts
| ||
|
MannerKiss
United States2398 Posts
Might be good for a newbie who has NO IDEA what he is doing, but the builds are basic In fact, the first game I tried it vs computer, and the computer like 6 pooled me or something, and the prog just contines on with its build and annoying the crap out of you -_- | ||
|
jca
France273 Posts
On March 20 2004 12:30 Tai-Shu wrote: The prog was horrible....the timeing is off on the strats it uses. the little meters and shit just get in the way and destract you, and the build orders arent even that good -_- Might be good for a newbie who has NO IDEA what he is doing, but the builds are basic In fact, the first game I tried it vs computer, and the computer like 6 pooled me or something, and the prog just contines on with its build and annoying the crap out of you -_- As many people said before on this forum, BWCoach does not replace your brain. I think you just gave us a brilliant demonstration it is totally true. | ||
|
x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
On March 20 2004 12:46 jca wrote: As many people said before on this forum, BWCoach does not replace your brain. I think you just gave us a brilliant demonstration it is totally true. Holy shit, owned. | ||
|
x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
Also, this program is great for learning new build orders or just trying to practice timing. But using it all the time is really ruining the game, and I'm not willing to do that. | ||
|
GroT
Belgium3003 Posts
but it took so much of my attention that i had no clue what was going on i really admire jca for programming this, it must have been difficult i also hope jca that you can make some kind of warning that the player using bwcoach ALWAYS says "I am using BWCoach!" at the start of the game and that he can't do anything about it edit: huh, bwcoach said i had 280 apm, why does it give a different reading than bwchart? | ||
|
7op
Canada654 Posts
| ||
|
7op
Canada654 Posts
| ||
|
ApollyoN
United States1297 Posts
On March 20 2004 12:56 GroT wrote: i used it in a game vs the computer to test, well my apm skyrocketed up to 227 whereas i normally have 170, and my macro was much better but it took so much of my attention that i had no clue what was going on i really admire jca for programming this, it must have been difficult i also hope jca that you can make some kind of warning that the player using bwcoach ALWAYS says "I am using BWCoach!" at the start of the game and that he can't do anything about it edit: huh, bwcoach said i had 280 apm, why does it give a different reading than bwchart? yeah, it was the exact same way for me pretty nice program for beginners i think, nice work JCA  | ||
|
StaSiS
United States147 Posts
Why is my average apm in APM Live! not the same than the one given by BWChart ? That is because BWChart measures actions that were actually recorded into the replay file. Whereas APM Live! measures clicks & keys. Even though minimap clicks are discarded, misclicks in the map are not. For example, if you click 20 times in a row on a CC, it counts as 1 select action in BWChart, whereas in APM Live!, it counts as 20 actions. For keys, most of the useless ones are discarded. That includes the F2,F3,F4 keys, the tab key, the arrows, the space bar and every key that you type in messages (since 1.00J). Basically only hotkeys and unit/building letters are recorded. So it's quite close to BWChart. (From bwchart.com) | ||
|
JOBY Protoss
Romania36 Posts
[i know it's not my computer but the guys who made the training files...but nevertheless...]For beginers i could see the point...but who starts playing BROODWAR now ? Such a great game should've been played since the first day it got out ! | ||
|
JOBY Protoss
Romania36 Posts
| ||
|
STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
| ||
|
GTR-2-Go_au
Australia315 Posts
I also made a .trn file for BWCoach, for the bamboo/gundam rush. it aint that good but if any one is interested... http://home.pacific.net.au/~gtr_2_go/gundam rush.tm.trn | ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
DV8
United States1623 Posts
| ||
|
DarkGhost]Coon[
United States1471 Posts
| ||
|
STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
update! tried the second build order and it had me do 11 rax, 4 rines, a vulture, a wraith, a machine shop, an ebay, 4 turrets, an armory, a cc, and then it disappeared. i was like wth do i do now? and i dunno how i feel about expanding tvz with 1 wraith, 1 vult, and 4 rines, especially that slowly. sounds dicey! | ||
|
Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
On March 20 2004 11:15 GooDGaMe[cF] wrote: The program is stupid and dumbs down starcraft, i see it as a step backwards :O i agree. Ultimately, BWCoach may be the death of bw. 1) newbies will rely on this program, not knowing why they are doing anything. This means they will be stuck with very basic builds, and wont be able to alter them according to the game. Ultimately, no more good players. 2) people will quit because they will be sick of other people using this shit, so no more good players and the people who are already good will be gone. 3) on another note, this is a program that everyone is going to need. Its like a patch, if you dont have it you cant compete. So eventually EVERYONE who plays 1v1 is going to need to download this shit, or get raped by people who are using it. 4) the blizzard anti-hack policy thing says 'NO 3RD PARTY PROGRAMS THAT ENHANCE THE PLAYERS PLAYING ABILITY IN ANY WAY ARE ALLOWED' hmm.... sound familiar? This is my opinion. personally i hate the fucking thing, but whatever. | ||
|
Na[12]Sil
United States192 Posts
| ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
| ||
|
JuDaS
Spain143 Posts
| ||
|
nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
On March 20 2004 16:29 Sliggy wrote: Exactly what i was thinking.i agree. Ultimately, BWCoach may be the death of bw. 1) newbies will rely on this program, not knowing why they are doing anything. This means they will be stuck with very basic builds, and wont be able to alter them according to the game. Ultimately, no more good players. 2) people will quit because they will be sick of other people using this shit, so no more good players and the people who are already good will be gone. 3) on another note, this is a program that everyone is going to need. Its like a patch, if you dont have it you cant compete. So eventually EVERYONE who plays 1v1 is going to need to download this shit, or get raped by people who are using it. 4) the blizzard anti-hack policy thing says 'NO 3RD PARTY PROGRAMS THAT ENHANCE THE PLAYERS PLAYING ABILITY IN ANY WAY ARE ALLOWED' hmm.... sound familiar? This is my opinion. personally i hate the fucking thing, but whatever. | ||
|
DarkGhost]Coon[
United States1471 Posts
On March 20 2004 15:59 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: i just tried to use it and i have to say that first build order is useless, its not even clear when they want you to build it, if they want you to cut probes or not. once my 8th probe starts building its like "build pylon" so like uh well i dont have 100 minerals yet did u want me to build it on 7 or what? but anyways i figure that just gives me time to build it. okay. next its like build gateway when i'm on 9 and not enough minerals to build it yet. so uh. did they really want me to 9 gate? or should i 10? and then its ilke build gas. now im like well shit. would that be a 9 gas too? 10? 11? useless. update! tried the second build order and it had me do 11 rax, 4 rines, a vulture, a wraith, a machine shop, an ebay, 4 turrets, an armory, a cc, and then it disappeared. i was like wth do i do now? and i dunno how i feel about expanding tvz with 1 wraith, 1 vult, and 4 rines, especially that slowly. sounds dicey! It's just guidelines. You can't expect it tell you to do everything. You should have some knowledge of what to do after that, yes? | ||
|
tAi
78 Posts
New nick name for bwcoach = bwprison (jca i dont mean to flame you) | ||
|
nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
| ||
|
radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
| ||
|
Verbloten
Australia750 Posts
| ||
|
STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
On March 20 2004 17:57 DarkGhost wrote: It's just guidelines. You can't expect it tell you to do everything. You should have some knowledge of what to do after that, yes? guidelines? i cant tell if it means to cut worker or not! useless, wow pylon before gateway? omg let me memorize that one. if it doesnt tell the newbies that their gate is too early/too late it is basically telling them nothing at all | ||
|
SweeTLemonS[TPR]
11739 Posts
| ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
and i am going to laugh when everyone who used it gets banned from battle.net | ||
|
IcedEarth
United States3661 Posts
On March 20 2004 16:29 Sliggy wrote: i agree. Ultimately, BWCoach may be the death of bw. 1) newbies will rely on this program, not knowing why they are doing anything. This means they will be stuck with very basic builds, and wont be able to alter them according to the game. Ultimately, no more good players. 2) people will quit because they will be sick of other people using this shit, so no more good players and the people who are already good will be gone. 3) on another note, this is a program that everyone is going to need. Its like a patch, if you dont have it you cant compete. So eventually EVERYONE who plays 1v1 is going to need to download this shit, or get raped by people who are using it. 4) the blizzard anti-hack policy thing says 'NO 3RD PARTY PROGRAMS THAT ENHANCE THE PLAYERS PLAYING ABILITY IN ANY WAY ARE ALLOWED' hmm.... sound familiar? This is my opinion. personally i hate the fucking thing, but whatever. JCA is just looking for Robot Brood War.  | ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
On a final word if you can get a better player than you, to teach you, it will always be better than BWcoach. If you do not like automated tutor, find yourself a human one ~ it will always be better. You do not need or want help at getting better? Fine Do it the old fashion way ~ battle made. Why deny others when they ask for help? What exactly are you afraid of? IcedEarth ~ nice name btw, hey man keep practising ~ you will get better ~ do not be afraid of 'newbies' raping you. | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
On March 20 2004 17:51 NoRTyDoG wrote: Exactly what i was thinking. Uh, I'm going to try to answer this, becuase I don't feel this reduces skill in any way. (I know this is a very split debate, JUST like apm, so you can feel free to flame shamelessly). 1. People are relatively stupid, but not THAT stupid. Once they take the big leap of moving from BGH to Lost Temple, this will help them get an idea of what they NEED to be doing. Now, YES, some people may get addicted, but those kinds of people wouldn't get good without the program ANYWAYS. Further, the "newbies" that really have the drive to get good will have the intelligence (and hopefully advice) that points them into the direction of countering builds and more about timing. This is VERY similar to BWchart and the replay function - > there are many players that try to "copy" Nada macro, EVERYONE is walling in, why? Not becuase they "figured" it out, so saying that this program takes away creativity is unfair and should not take all of the blame. Again, I reiterate, those players that constantly do so will not only develop a weakness to playing only on Lost Temple, they will not be able to deal wtih change fast enough intuitively to do well in high level games. 2. Ok, this is very unlogical. Yes, it will improve your macro probably. I play on fastest possible /bgh occasionally to improve my macro. I'm not going to claim I'm good, but who's going to leave becuase somoene knows how to do a proper 2 fac vult now? This doesn't micro for you, and the advantage is only early-game, in which an experienced player has ALREADY learned this knowledge. The only possible valid argument that can be twisted from this is that we (the people without BWCoach) were unable to have this aid so they can learn faster than us (the early basics). 3. "raped?" I think that 99% of the apm haters say that speed is irrelevant, tactics are 200% more important. (Just to tangent alittle, i completely agree, but I feel that apm (and hotkeying, a lot of the apm haters do NOT hotkey) is completely necessary, and I can always use the undefeatable argument: nada apms 300 just to look good?) Moving on, if anything, like you said, the newbies won't be able to play properly and do the same build every game. This is contardictory to the other statement that you said. "High" level players do not need this. Therefore, this dosen't take away from the game. 4. We all use BWCoach and RWA case closed. A couple thoughts of my own about the program (I will be testing it more as a more fluid program is released): I think that it will dumb down creativity a little, but right now tvp is just 2fac vult/fact port / fact (bay) expo. There is no wraith, bbs, or infantry rush any more. Its not like players are trying to be craetive and this program is shutting them down. I think it will improve skill level among mid-level players (which is basically the entire TL forum.) I suggest that we all try the program (if you are comfortable with it) before we continue to flame hardworking JCA, who has provided us with so many useful tools. | ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
thanks for posts like yours exalted ~ it is ur types of posts that make me stay reading at times.. ~ Entropy | ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
Any program that gives someone an advantage over someone not using the program should not be allowed. Simple as that. | ||
|
radiaL
Andorra2690 Posts
Once one little thing loses sync, all is gone, cept min/gas/supply/apm warnings | ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
| ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
My favourite options in it are the alarm for high minerals, low apm, and supply defeciency! I find my own sounds... it's really cooll... I haven't really made use of the build order following function, but I'm sure it's useful for beginners. Suggestion: The supply message is annoying because it remains there until I get sufficient supply. I think it should blink once every user defined time when the player doesn't have enough. | ||
|
SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On March 20 2004 20:12 MadduX wrote: Well then, we should all start using maphack as a training tool!  | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
BWCoach does NOT give you ANY information about your opponent. Maphack does. This is obviously the main point that seperates the two, one gives you information that you could not OTHERWISE POSSIBLY know (maphack), while the other gives information that you probably DO know (build order). I tried the program, and I could not find a use replay to training file, which is probably what it would be used for. I think this program is quite frankly overhyped, and even I got caught up in it. We have to stepback and look at what it is really doing: It is telling you how to do Build Orders. It is telling you to build supply depots. While I do agree that "build depot now" gives you an advantage, and hence, similar to APM Live, many people do not support it, I think that this problem can be rectified by simply a message that states: This player is running BW Coach. Obviously, it is JCA's call whether to implement this, and since BW Coach beta is alerady out those that have already owned this could not be forced to upgrade, etc, problem. Before we all cry Armageddon, however, lets look at the top right display of the starcraft in-game screen. Many people don't look at this, and you can tell when they have 1.8k + mineral/gas (weak joke, yeah). There is a a/b number there, and then a little logo that signifies your raace. Did you know that when a+8>b you should build a supply depot? This information is clearly accessible to the player, as well as build orders (replay function). BWCoach is merely making this information clearer to see. Again, Maphack does not do this, and gives you information that you should NOT know. Also, maphack does not improve your skill, which is what a training tool does. It improves your game, but people that maphack rarely use it as a "training" tool (which basically has no application as such), and therefore become dependent (which does share a potential common bond with coach) on it, and it decreases skill. I already know you know this and I know your point is not to advocate maphack, but to say that the same dependency problem can occur with BWCoach. Ok, in summary a) maphack =/ bwcoach in purpose and what it provides b) bwcoach provides an advantage to users of bwcoach (through the supply and apm reminders), but not one that is unable to be gotten without it. c) this can be prevented by a message stating the user is using bwcoach at the start of the game This may be slightly contradictory to the previous post, but like i said, veteran players know build orders, they don't miss depots, they spend money. These are all skills that can be acquired WITHOUT bwcoach, and are TRAINED with it. Thanks for reading, especially Physician, I really appreciate the feedback. | ||
|
Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
Take that logic and project it to where we are now. Everyone here is strongly anti map hack, yet the exact same logic can be applied to map hacking. You can go and download a map hack too. And map hack is only useful at your level. It wouldn't do Boxer any good to have a map hack, the only important games he plays are live anyways. Boxer probably doesn't give a shit if some random fag on bnet hacks against him, he can rape him anyways, and if anyone good hacks against him, more's the better, he get's a better practice opponent, and a loss on bnet means NOTHING to him. So I guess all of us who bitch about hackers should shut the fuck up about it, since it wouldn't affect pro gaming. Hacking makes people like Trek and Testie play better too, so it's clearly accomplishing it's goal. Map hacks must be awesome and we should shower their creators with praise. Get it through your skulls guys, bwcoach is hacking, just in another form aimed at a slightly different target audience. You can't bitch about a map hack in one breath and then praise this in the next. | ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
One could also argue, using the same principles that you use, that maphack doesnt provide an advantage that a player cannot otherwise get: any good player would have enough scouting and knowledge to be able to know what he is doing. No one misses zero depots. If some cheats are ok, but otheres arn't, where do we draw the line? | ||
|
MannerLess_
Brazil535 Posts
On March 20 2004 22:03 Hautamaki wrote: Maddux and Sliggy are right. This is a third party program whose sole purpose is to make someone better at Starcraft. Everyone who says 'this program will only help newbies' is missing the point. The POINT is that this is a third party program which will make you play better. That is it's intention. Lets suppose you ARE a newbie and you're playing against newbies in newbie only games. Suppose some other newbies have bwcoach and they beat you. Is it any consolation to you that you can download and use it too? Is it any consolation to you that it only helps people at your level, newbie. Take that logic and project it to where we are now. Everyone here is strongly anti map hack, yet the exact same logic can be applied to map hacking. You can go and download a map hack too. And map hack is only useful at your level. It wouldn't do Boxer any good to have a map hack, the only important games he plays are live anyways. Boxer probably doesn't give a shit if some random fag on bnet hacks against him, he can rape him anyways, and if anyone good hacks against him, more's the better, he get's a better practice opponent, and a loss on bnet means NOTHING to him. So I guess all of us who bitch about hackers should shut the fuck up about it, since it wouldn't affect pro gaming. Hacking makes people like Trek and Testie play better too, so it's clearly accomplishing it's goal. Map hacks must be awesome and we should shower their creators with praise. Get it through your skulls guys, bwcoach is hacking, just in another form aimed at a slightly different target audience. You can't bitch about a map hack in one breath and then praise this in the next. I'll second that... | ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
~As much as I despise map hacks you have a point ~ but using a map hack to learn will give you so many bad habbits that will be very hard to get rid of ~ you will however learn faster than others with less effort. This speed of the learning curve, of die hard map hackers, is higher than then non hacker. You are quite correct. This was specially true in the pre-replay era. I have often started suspecting someone because of the the speed he is learning ~ albeit some are more gifted that others but within reasonable limits. But then how many countless of ex map hackers have you heard say ~ "I play much better without a map hack, that shit is for newbies" OR "Map hacking made the game so boring for me I quit or I almost quit" Yes using BWcoach, BWchart, listening to RWA's, asking for better players advice, having a friend coach you and watching good replays will all help you to learn faster. But all these way are FUN! The difference? In one you cheat and in the others you do not. In one you steal a game in the others you learn the game. Plus bottom line you do not need a map hack ~ ask a friend who plays much better than you and ask him hey tvt give me vision so I can copy ur build order? or ~ Can u show me some of your terran build orders by me imitating them with u giving me vision? Hey dam! Is it not what BWcoach does? You do not have to cheat to learn. You get my point don't you? Its a question of not lying, not cheating and just being honest man. Final question: CAn you use BWcoach!! to help you cheat in a game? If you have tried it ~ no ~LOL. If you win with this thing on ~ $hit man, my hat off to that some one ~ they have an amazing atention span ~ their opponent did everything they were supposed to do, to lose and they live in fairy broodwar land. (Final SOlution for those that live in fairy broodwar land ~ let BWcoach warn your opponent that ur using BWcoach) I will talk to JCa about this. Anyways ~ thanks Maddox (and making it perfectly clear: I never implied that you hacked or that you used a map hack ~ just in case you read fast and start flame war!) edited ~upps sorry it was bwcoach | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
Tell me that in PvZ. Hautamaki raised an excellent point, but I would like to note that, replays and RWAs do the same thing. They help you learn tactics and know what build orders are acceptable and that 4 pylon 4 forget 4 cannon is not. Further, the genre newbies (and i hestitate to use it as it has a very bad connotation [especially when talking about people who do nothing to deserve this title {flame, etc}]) is unlikely to use BWCoach, and if they did, they probably had access to progaming replays which they watched as well. Again, I would like to say that I agree with you (hence my call for the "using coach message", just want to say that its not as bad as you're maknig it out. "Final question: CAn you use BWchart to help you cheat in a game? If you have tried it ~ no ~LOL. If you win with this thing on ~ $hit man, my hat off to that some one ~ they have an amazing atention span ~ their opponent did everything they were supposed to do, to lose and they live in fairy broodwar land." (BWChart? Even when substituting BWCoah for that, I really don't understand what you are meaning). | ||
|
Na[12]Sil
United States192 Posts
| ||
|
Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
On March 20 2004 19:52 exalted wrote: Uh, I'm going to try to answer this, becuase I don't feel this reduces skill in any way. (I know this is a very split debate, JUST like apm, so you can feel free to flame shamelessly). 1. People are relatively stupid, but not THAT stupid. Once they take the big leap of moving from BGH to Lost Temple, this will help them get an idea of what they NEED to be doing. Now, YES, some people may get addicted, but those kinds of people wouldn't get good without the program ANYWAYS. Further, the "newbies" that really have the drive to get good will have the intelligence (and hopefully advice) that points them into the direction of countering builds and more about timing. This is VERY similar to BWchart and the replay function - > there are many players that try to "copy" Nada macro, EVERYONE is walling in, why? Not becuase they "figured" it out, so saying that this program takes away creativity is unfair and should not take all of the blame. Again, I reiterate, those players that constantly do so will not only develop a weakness to playing only on Lost Temple, they will not be able to deal wtih change fast enough intuitively to do well in high level games. 2. Ok, this is very unlogical. Yes, it will improve your macro probably. I play on fastest possible /bgh occasionally to improve my macro. I'm not going to claim I'm good, but who's going to leave becuase somoene knows how to do a proper 2 fac vult now? This doesn't micro for you, and the advantage is only early-game, in which an experienced player has ALREADY learned this knowledge. The only possible valid argument that can be twisted from this is that we (the people without BWCoach) were unable to have this aid so they can learn faster than us (the early basics). 3. "raped?" I think that 99% of the apm haters say that speed is irrelevant, tactics are 200% more important. (Just to tangent alittle, i completely agree, but I feel that apm (and hotkeying, a lot of the apm haters do NOT hotkey) is completely necessary, and I can always use the undefeatable argument: nada apms 300 just to look good?) Moving on, if anything, like you said, the newbies won't be able to play properly and do the same build every game. This is contardictory to the other statement that you said. "High" level players do not need this. Therefore, this dosen't take away from the game. 4. We all use BWCoach and RWA case closed. A couple thoughts of my own about the program (I will be testing it more as a more fluid program is released): I think that it will dumb down creativity a little, but right now tvp is just 2fac vult/fact port / fact (bay) expo. There is no wraith, bbs, or infantry rush any more. Its not like players are trying to be craetive and this program is shutting them down. I think it will improve skill level among mid-level players (which is basically the entire TL forum.) I suggest that we all try the program (if you are comfortable with it) before we continue to flame hardworking JCA, who has provided us with so many useful tools. My Response: 1) I dont even understand your argument so i cant respond, your saying people will counter because BWCoach tells them to so its ok? 2) not just 1 person, but eventually people will get pissed off that everyone seems to play flawlessly with this program. Imagine playing 10 1v1 and you lost every one of them because some guy spent his money, which usually he would not have been able to do. Its only helping people to improve? So do steroids, but they are banned. 3) again, i dont know what the fuck your on about. I pretty much stopped trying to figure it out when you said speed is irrelevant. 4) rofl, you really are quite the fuckign retard. Do you use BWChart while your in a game to enhance how you play? Do you use RWA while your in a game to enhance how you play? Do you understand what a 3rd party program that enhances your gameplay is? Fuck me, you have NO right to call people stupid like you did in your 1) response. | ||
|
Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
On March 20 2004 22:03 Hautamaki wrote: Maddux and Sliggy are right. This is a third party program whose sole purpose is to make someone better at Starcraft. Everyone who says 'this program will only help newbies' is missing the point. The POINT is that this is a third party program which will make you play better. That is it's intention. Lets suppose you ARE a newbie and you're playing against newbies in newbie only games. Suppose some other newbies have bwcoach and they beat you. Is it any consolation to you that you can download and use it too? Is it any consolation to you that it only helps people at your level, newbie. Take that logic and project it to where we are now. Everyone here is strongly anti map hack, yet the exact same logic can be applied to map hacking. You can go and download a map hack too. And map hack is only useful at your level. It wouldn't do Boxer any good to have a map hack, the only important games he plays are live anyways. Boxer probably doesn't give a shit if some random fag on bnet hacks against him, he can rape him anyways, and if anyone good hacks against him, more's the better, he get's a better practice opponent, and a loss on bnet means NOTHING to him. So I guess all of us who bitch about hackers should shut the fuck up about it, since it wouldn't affect pro gaming. Hacking makes people like Trek and Testie play better too, so it's clearly accomplishing it's goal. Map hacks must be awesome and we should shower their creators with praise. Get it through your skulls guys, bwcoach is hacking, just in another form aimed at a slightly different target audience. You can't bitch about a map hack in one breath and then praise this in the next. this is what ive been trying to say. | ||
|
Dave[9]
United States2365 Posts
| ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
And exalted: count lings. Bottom Line: BWCoach gives one player an advantage over another who is not using it. It is a third party program. It is a cheat, and should not be allowed, or even distributed (too late for that, GJ JCA!) | ||
|
SunShine
Netherlands787 Posts
On March 21 2004 00:04 MadduX wrote: No most of us dont care about the build order thing, we have problems with the program giving you alerts when you are messing up. And exalted: count lings. Bottom Line: BWCoach gives one player an advantage over another who is not using it. It is a third party program. It is a cheat, and should not be allowed, or even distributed (too late for that, GJ JCA!) i agree with that + i think this program should have a warning msge at start of game like hanstar maphack detection has so ppl in wgtour cant use it. i think if top players used it just to watch their mineral count even they would get better. its a 3rd party program so its not allowed on bnet. i hope blizzard will ban the accounts using this program at the next bann period. BUT ATLEAST GIVE IT A WARNING SIGNAL so ppl can avoid playing another computer oponent wich they quit doing years ago | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
1) I dont even understand your argument so i cant respond, your saying people will counter because BWCoach tells them to so its ok? I said, that people will not be ABLE to counter if they just follow the BO that BWcoach gives them in a real 1v1, so the only benefit coach does is show them when to build thinsg with more ease than studying BWchart replay and finding at what time they built what. The opponent can just micro his probe around, and counter accordingly. 2) not just 1 person, but eventually people will get pissed off that everyone seems to play flawlessly with this program. Imagine playing 10 1v1 and you lost every one of them because some guy spent his money, which usually he would not have been able to do. Its only helping people to improve? So do steroids, but they are banned. Have you even tried the program? People cannot play FLAWLESSLY with this program. Your macro doesn't suddenly nada up. You still miss depots. Imagine playing 10 1v1 vs people who can spend their money? Oh, the horror of playing good people? Are you seriously that worried that the level of competition will increase? In that case, that is a good worry. About the steroid remark, I don't usually like to compare broodwar to other things, becuase its usually like apples and oranges, but I really don't know how to respond to this becuase they are different genres. 3) again, i dont know what the fuck your on about. I pretty much stopped trying to figure it out when you said speed is irrelevant. Actually, if you read carefully, i said that apm matters, hence why nada apms 300+ instead of 90 like the apm haters. I believe firmly in apm, but tactics are much more important. 4) rofl, you really are quite the fuckign retard. Do you use BWChart while your in a game to enhance how you play? Do you use RWA while your in a game to enhance how you play? Do you understand what a 3rd party program that enhances your gameplay is? Fuck me, you have NO right to call people stupid like you did in your 1) response. Uh...and you do? I really don't get the logic in that. And RWA and BWchart enhances your play, not while you play, but it increases your skill level. I seriously suggest you to try the program, even if it be against your morals, before you start a flame of this magnitude. Its quite appalling that once I provide a valid argument, they resort to personal flames. I"m specifically talking about Maddux suggesting me to count lings. Seriously, there is more than one side to every topic. Referring to Sunshine's post, "i think if top players used it just to watch their mineral count even they would get better." As opposed to looking at the top right of their screen to see how much minerals are in their bank? The only valid point is that the 3rd party programs are illegal. But, everyone uses 3rd party programs like apm live and bwchart, I don't see how they can use this argument without being hypocritical. Like I've said several times, there need to be changes, but its not right to flame someone's work without at least trying it. It's highly disrespectful and many times unfounded. I didn't see you guys bitching about Lasgo's Observer Pack. | ||
|
Sliggy
Australia797 Posts
Basically, a person using it will have an advantage over a person NOT using it. Thats my beef with it. Also, it directly breaks blizzards no hack rule. Im done with this thread, debate all you like. my opinion is set. | ||
|
exalted
United States3612 Posts
And yes, it will give you an advantage --v. However, its intended purpose and what it is benefiting you in turned out to be unexpectedly different (the main problem taht people have with it is how it helps you remember depots and to use your money). I tried, it, it pops up a little beep and has a small text message on the top left saying, spend more / build depot, its only slightly more blatant than checking the supply and mineral numbers. It still is unfair, and yeah message, blah blah. Other than that, it gives you NO advantage. It def. does not live to the hype right now (most of the hype bad, however), and I was surpsied to see how people proclaimed the fall of starcraft becuase of the possibility of nwebies knowing how to build. That's it, I think that this post has been drawn out as well, some closing arguments, another thanks to JCA for continuing to help with his tools. | ||
|
STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
| ||
|
SunShine
Netherlands787 Posts
so to make it eze -build orders from bwcoach are no hack -mineral+supply advice = equal to hack | ||
|
SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
when does it go back down? when you're done doing whatever you were doing with people of lower skill levels, it's different. Their money goes up when they have 5 zealots queued on their 2 gateways, so its telling them to spend it. They also don't build supply buildings/lords until the game tells them they have hit the limit. You should have gotten into the habit of building depots in time with your production by now anyway. | ||
|
SuGoSu
Turkey109 Posts
| ||
|
Yarertz
Djibouti1891 Posts
on 30 tries only once i could... ;/ | ||
|
LumberJack
United States3355 Posts
| ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
sunshine, siggy ~ u have another god dam point!! grrrhhh jeje. Its a matter of skill level ~ I guess an ultra newbie could beat another newbie if he used the zeal rush gate training file. I guess those reminders can be considered as cheating help. STILL ~ the distinction is a fine one. BWcoach is clearly intended as a teaching tool ~ a fun one too. If somebody decides to use it as a cheat it is a very clumsy, ineffective tool for those ends and it will benefit a very small group. APM live also makes warnings that you could consider they were helping you ~ and yet very few consider it as cheating. BWcoach has the potential to help each individual get BETTER and NOT AT THE EXPENCE OF YOUR OPPONENTS WEAKNESS like a map hack. BWcoach was not designed to help you 'cheat' ~ nor was APM live ~ they both do help the player using them but in a different way than a map hack. Its an ethical issue ~ legally yes ~ its a third party program and thus something that blizzard could decide to ban or turn the blind eye as it has done to so many other third party programs not made by Jca (~ bots, ~ filter.) BWcoach does far more GOOD than it will ever cause harm ~ try it and you will understand how crappy it is as a hacking tool and how trully fantastic it is as a teaching tool ~ | ||
|
SunShine
Netherlands787 Posts
i dont care about the build order help etc. im worried about the warning it gives u when ur cash is high during an attack wich every player sometimes forgets no matter what skill level and im worried about the supply thingie for the same reason. even pro's forget these things sometimes and with this program u would not forget wich is part of the game so its taking away a part of the game | ||
|
error
Germany36 Posts
so its hack and dont tell me its not an advantage if u get told that u re low on supply even realy gosu player can forget an pylon in midgame i personally hope that evryone using this programm will be banned by blizzard cause of using 3.party prog ( unfortunatly i dont think that ll happen) btw: i had less probs with it if it wpuld send a msg at start of like player: hello i am using bwcoach version 1.1c now we juist need lasgos KI prog and we ve got wc3 with shitty graphics excellent sry 4 bad eng hf | ||
|
MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
I have had this idea to put "post-it" (C) notes on the side of my monitor that would attract my attention once in a while. Something like this BUILD SUPPLY, FUCKING IDIOT! WTF NO SCOUTING? YO FASTER PLZ, OK? LOOK AT MINIMAP MORE OFTEN, LOSER!? Ok, would you consider this hacking? Because that is essentially exactly what BWChart does, only a tiny little bit easier. | ||
|
T_T
Vatican City State593 Posts
| ||
|
error
Germany36 Posts
On March 21 2004 09:23 MPXMX wrote: Ok, dudes, let me try to settle your dispute I have had this idea to put "post-it" (C) notes on the side of my monitor that would attract my attention once in a while. Something like this BUILD SUPPLY, FUCKING IDIOT! WTF NO SCOUTING? YO FASTER PLZ, OK? LOOK AT MINIMAP MORE OFTEN, LOSER!? Ok, would you consider this hacking? Because that is essentially exactly what BWChart does, only a tiny little bit easier. indeed good point just try to think next time post-it notes re rly good software..yea | ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
 ~lol | ||
|
Pacifist
Israel1683 Posts
On March 21 2004 09:23 MPXMX wrote: Ok, dudes, let me try to settle your dispute I have had this idea to put "post-it" (C) notes on the side of my monitor that would attract my attention once in a while. Something like this BUILD SUPPLY, FUCKING IDIOT! WTF NO SCOUTING? YO FASTER PLZ, OK? LOOK AT MINIMAP MORE OFTEN, LOSER!? Ok, would you consider this hacking? Because that is essentially exactly what BWChart does, only a tiny little bit easier. post it notes aren't third party program also, its not like BWCoach where when your minerals are high it says "high minerals," when your APM is low it says "play faster," when u need supply it says "build supply." Post it notes lack the perfect timing of BWCoach, the one quality which makes BWCoach such an unfair hack | ||
|
MannerLess_
Brazil535 Posts
| ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
Do you agree that BWCoach gives the person using it an advantage over someone who is not using it? Then how can you say it is fair to use in leagues and ladders, where things like maphacks are banned, because they do the same thing: give one player an advantage over another. | ||
|
MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
Learn to beat a gundam rush and stfu. The persons overall skill determines how helpful this will be. If they are already good they wont have any of those stupid alerts flashing in the corner and they wont need to use any stupid carbon copy build order. If they suck then they wont be able to use the alerts to their fullest and it will only hurt them by distracting them. Sliggy and Maddux, you guys are afraid of a person who can macro. Go play pubbies. And sliggy, On March 20 2004 23:19 Sliggy wrote: 2) not just 1 person, but eventually people will get pissed off that everyone seems to play flawlessly with this program. Imagine playing 10 1v1 and you lost every one of them because some guy spent his money, which usually he would not have been able to do. Its only helping people to improve? So do steroids, but they are banned. ROFL. | ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
It's not my fault your stupid. | ||
|
MannerKiss
United States2398 Posts
But I had a pretty hard scare, because at one point, I build 2 overlords, because I had a tad extra money, but I didnt notice that he killed one. This put me behind in supply that I didnt pay attention to, and thus, at one point he broke out of my light contain, and I go back to find my new units, just to find it giving me the you need more overlords message. Right here, bw coach could have told me a while before that I needed overlords, as it does right when you lose one. Had I seen this, I would have had plenty of units, to just break him right then and there. Secondly thanks to this whole thing, I wasnt spending well and got up to 1600 before I noticed....this means to me, that I can freely expand again, tech to hive, and still build plenty of units from everyhatchury...had I noticed this before, I would have had an even easier time. Anyway, even though I was already going to win the game, this all means that even though I'm a 200-220 APM zerg, and I dont consider myself "newbie" (by no means great mind you) it could have helped me pull of a pure rape game. And in Responce to the post about posted notes...BWCoach gives sounds, and flashes on your game screen. I could easily get focused on my game, and not see the posted notes sitting outside my monitor. Bwcoach puts them right where im looking, hard to miss that way. And as much as I think BWCoach is a hack, im not to terribly worried about it. I played a game with it, and the build orders sucked, plus all the little screens and numbers and shit just get destracting. I say thanks to JCA for BWchart, RWA, but not for BWcoach, im very disapointed that he couldnt see this. | ||
|
LumberJack
United States3355 Posts
| ||
|
MannerKiss
United States2398 Posts
Now seeing that you probably meant bwCoach, and no, It wont make you much better, however, if a good player is much more aware,it can completely change things. And no god damnit, im not trying to say that I am a good player! Im just useing it as an example | ||
|
lowfi(
Germany280 Posts
But in my case - I like to decide for myself which bo I use, when I scout (man I hate that feature where it says "scout now" ). Why do you need a programm which notifys you if your mins or gas go above/ below a certain amount? I think that's is just annoying. Sry JCA but that prog is pretty much useless. Your other programs rule nevertheless | ||
|
x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
BWCoach doesn't mess with StarCraft itself. If ANYONE gets an unfair advantage over you with BWCoach then you need to improve. It's not like maphack where no matter how good you get he still sees what you are doing. With BWCoach if he beats you because of it then that means you need to improve your own timing and then you will be on a level playing field with him. | ||
|
StaSiS
United States147 Posts
| ||
|
Tricky
China752 Posts
fuckin nerd u r an idoit YES IDIOT! u r ignoring the point of playing game which is for fun uhhh WAT A JOKEee | ||
|
MadduX
United States515 Posts
| ||
|
Yang
Lithuania231 Posts
Ppl, who play with bwcoach in wgt or other 'not training' games, are cheaters. next jca release - undetectibale map hack. 'kiddin' | ||
|
Ceril
Sweden1343 Posts
| ||
|
MannerLess_
Brazil535 Posts
On March 22 2004 04:59 Ceril wrote: I kinda like my own "third-party program" that tells me that I got almost full in the top left corner and "should you not do something with thoose minerals and gas?". It is called: my dear friend that watches my games. Very neat program that. And so Hack. Isn't that a bit different from an automated SOFTWARE? | ||
|
koehli
Germany350 Posts
On March 22 2004 05:05 MannerLess_ wrote: Isn't that a bit different from an automated SOFTWARE? Actually there is a difference between hardware and software. It is a useful term, but in another area, not to decide if something is hack. - Mouse drivers are 3rd party addons which directly effect your plaing capability. Ban non Blizzard / non Microsoft mouse drivers ? - So above point was ridiculous, eh ? Then what about a programmable mouse ? Mind you, there are some with 5 Buttons ;-) - What about WinAmp in the background playing techno music which will make me react faster? Forbidden because its software? How about the good old ghettoblaster ? Allowed because it's hardware ? - That ghettoblaster can play a tape with a build I recorded watching a nada replay. Hardware/Software ? Forbidden / allowed ? All that crap about "its software" is so "my father style". And thats an insult if it comes to technical terms ;-) . In my oppinion there's a really easy way to decide if something is cheat. Consider Starcraft to be a black box. Will a program give you any information, that you cannot have using the blackbox interface? If so it's hack. If not, it's a legal help. BWCoach only reminds you of information you already have. So no hack, gg, thanks to JCA. | ||
|
koehli
Germany350 Posts
There are the "advanced players" like Physician. They don't need BWCoach because they don't forget to build depots. I don't do either and I regularly agree to restart a game if my opponent claims he fucked up his build ;-) Now these people would "suffer" the most because players not able to pulloff a straight build will be coached to compete. We greet this and are happy to get more of a challenge out of our opponents. On the other hand there are the "Maddoxxes". These players are not newbies but they are certainly not good. They still forget pylons and don't know which build counters what when playing against a competent opponent. Likely, despite thousands of games played, the "Maddoxxes" will never improve. It's not because they are stupid (Well maybe they are). It's because they don't take their joy out of challenging their mind but winning agains weaker opponents (Their carreer started with xvc compbashes btw). Loosing closely against someone they will more likely claim the other guy hacks then ask for a regame. If their opponent has someone giving hints to him they will be angry "because he cheats" not happy to have better competition. Now this is the party that wants BWCoach to be considered hack allthough they themselves would be the EXACT target group which could use bwcoach the most. It's up to you, but I'd rather play a newbie that tries to improve using bwcoach than play a whining "Maddoxx" who will call me hacker in the likely case he will loose. So good work JCA, help the newbies and don't listen to the "Maddoxxes" Peace, koehli | ||
|
JudasT
Spain2226 Posts
| ||
|
error
Germany36 Posts
On March 21 2004 13:50 x[ReaPeR]x wrote: A hack is something that messes with StarCraft itself to give you an unfair advantage over your opponent. BWCoach doesn't mess with StarCraft itself. If ANYONE gets an unfair advantage over you with BWCoach then you need to improve. It's not like maphack where no matter how good you get he still sees what you are doing. With BWCoach if he beats you because of it then that means you need to improve your own timing and then you will be on a level playing field with him. so its just a hack if u re not good enough o.O very nice following szenario noob plays vs noob the one noob make a nearly perfekt 9/10 gate zealot rush so who wins? ah i forgot noobs dont count and just need to get better so thats not a hack anymore t.t | ||
|
Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
| ||
|
HurtnTime
United States296 Posts
haha j/k.I need to make some training files. FYI - the posted training file does not include the most important part which is the spider mines after machine shop. Place spider mines to defend the early expansion. Update: JCA added the spider mines. | ||
|
MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
On March 21 2004 10:01 Pacifist wrote: post it notes aren't third party program also, its not like BWCoach where when your minerals are high it says "high minerals," when your APM is low it says "play faster," when u need supply it says "build supply." Post it notes lack the perfect timing of BWCoach, the one quality which makes BWCoach such an unfair hack What the hell does it matter if it's a program? You seem to think it's a hack just because it's SOFTWARE (oooooooo!!) that makes reminders. You know some people have better mouse drivers than others. They have an unfair advantage. Are they hacking? Some people have better hardware than others. They have an advantage. Are they hacking? Should good mice be banned? Seriuosly, bwcoach is intended to help people to get better. If you still forget supplies regularly, can't spend money, and need reminders to play fast, you are hardly playing broodwar on an enjoyable level. Once you get past those barriers, you don't need bw coach and people who use bw coach will not have an advantage over you. Just my $0.02 CAD | ||
|
Physician
United States4146 Posts
and Thanks JCA!! | ||
|
LumberJack
United States3355 Posts
Quake has programs, that you run, that tell you the spawning times of all the items, like an apmlive or something, a timer that runs at the corner of the screen. Granted u cant use them at offline events, but its not really a cheat is it? Its already something you 'know', it just helps make it more effeceint | ||
|
Pob
880 Posts
but the feature export build order from replay looks very good i have to say , ill download it when that feature works properly | ||
|
Hautamaki
Canada1311 Posts
Is it a hack now? Where do you draw the line? It's a slippery slope guys. | ||
|
IcarusFalls
Canada94 Posts
bwcoach = tutor. getting an advantage for yourself within the rules of the game. it's just like someone whispering over your shoulder in a game (build a depot now) therefore bwcoach is not a cheat even if it does give an advantage meaning it's deamed ok and it does not effect my level of play in game so i really dont care :D it will make lesser players better so hf ! edit: how this will effect the game is only by allowing people to rip build orders off with ease. good and bad players alike. therefore the skill will go up but i mean it's not like it matters. hardly anyone i know is good and there are still very few really good players out there. so many people have played this game for 5 years and if they arnt already gosu this isnt going to help that much. | ||
|
Ilintar
Poland794 Posts
| ||
|
amat
United States1788 Posts
Anyhow, here's the zerg pack (about 900KB): http://amat.sux2bme.com/ZergAllEnglish.rar I haven't tested these with bwcoach yet, so blah. Thank you sux2bme for webspace, and JCA for writing these programs for the community | ||
|
JudasT
Spain2226 Posts
| ||
|
gricha
Lesotho67 Posts
I have fun memories of having a very good player behind my shoulder: This one time, at broodwar camp, I was terran pitted against a zerg, going exp -> muta... And this guy makes me build like 5,7 sunks when M&Ms are coming to contain me. I was like: "wtf ! only newbies BGHer overcanon their base ! And what good is it gonna do against the tanks that are sure to come ? Then he tells me not to go and harass his base with my first mutas, but to patrol them between his base and mine... I do, and score his tank on the way ! Now he was stuck in front of my massive sunks, and my growing muta was starting to be potentially a pain in his ass in various places in his base, so he had to come back to defend while I went in mad expand mode... First time I came across this smart(for a newbie) strategic move. I was in awe of the sheer brilliance of it... Having a coach is great. You should try it. The point is thou its gotta be someone better than you. If there was a program capable of giving me such good advice, that would be a quick and fun way to learn... Because unfortunately, I reign supreme, in terms of BW skills, over my friends (that is to say I played more than them and achieved, among other things, a tremendous 70 apm, making me quick like a fox in their eyes) | ||
| ||
