On April 10 2010 15:17 konadora wrote: Official Patch Translation (by me :D) Match Point: - 6/12 oclock can now longer be sieged behind a protected doodad (doodad is removed) - Made 3 oclock central ramp closer to center/further from side of map - Changed 7oclock starting position's minerals
Judgment Day: - Center is a bit more open - Some mineral placement changes - Shifted 1/5/7's starting position a bit
Roadrunner: - 11/5 oclock mineral placement changed to vertical instead of horizontal - Moved bridge a bit further from choke at 11/5 starting position's nat - Changed the 3rd gas's layout a bit to allow better unit flow and widen choke
Tileset: Space Size: 128 x 96 Positions: 4, 10 - Instead of the modern trend, which is making maps that are a combination of high and low ground and has multiple paths to allow engagements to happen everywhere, this is an all-low ground map. - Design based off chess boards - A billion possible paths for endless engagements - Most expos are easily accessible without going through ramps and high ground disadvantages due to map being main all low-ground, so unit count will be important - Island expos give more reasons to use dropships and air units. - All resources are default at 1500 and 5000 Rush time: 36 seconds
Tileset: Jungle Size: 128 x 96 Positions: 3, 9 - Heavy engagement-encouraging map - Two entrances to main - Bottom path for early small-sized army engagements - Top path for heavy guerrilla warfare and huge army faceoffs - Far third gas - Main can be tankable from beyond the 'walls' that surround it - Expansions at 5 and 7 have mineral patches at 1000 and geyser at 2000. Rush time: 28 seconds (bottom), 52 seconds (top)
Tileset: Twilight Size: 128 x 96 Positions: 5, 11 - Three different routes to mains gives players more options to use various strategies that suits their playing style (aggressive, defensive, standard, all-in, etc) - All three routes are different. Fastest route has narrow bridge, 3/9 oclock requires you to get over ramps and 12/6 oclock requires you to get over two ramps. - 1/7 oclock expos are safe and easily takeable by the players starting at 11/5 respectively - But, for 3/9 expos, both players can take it. Hence, holding the center of the map (and the high ground surround it) becomes important for late game play. - All resources are default at 1500 and 5000 Rush time: 33 seconds
Tileset: Desert Size: 128 x 128 Positions: 3, 8, 11 - Reused the 'backdoor' concept from Medusa, but this time with 100% less worker bug issues. - Island expos that can be made into non-island expos gives players more variety in choosing their strategies. For example, players can use similar strategies they used on Ultimatum, but tweak it slightly to suit the map (for players can opt to rush and break down the neutral buildings, making it non-island and vulnerable to harass). - 3 gas expos that can be accessed on foot, and 3 by air (until you break down the neutral buildings). This forces players to make smart decisions on where to expand, which can lead to new strategies that can only be used on this map. - All resources are default at 1500 and 5000 - One mineral patch in the main has only 500 minerals. - There are 10 stacked temples at each place, totaling 15000 HP (1500 x 10). Rush time: 30 seconds
Tileset: Desert Size: 128 x 128 Positions: 2, 5, 8, 11 - Spawn positions matter heavily, as different spawn positions = need to go through different terrains - Requires you to choose your strategy after you scout (or basically, scouting is pretty damn important here) - Center expansions have mineral patches at 500 and geyser at 2000 Rush time: 30 seconds (horizontal and vertical), 38 seconds (diagonal)
Tileset: Space Size: 128 x 96 Positions: 2, 5, 8, 11
On March 14 2010 01:35 konadora wrote: If you see the 4 corners, you notice some black thing at the entrances. Those are neutral 'gates'. There is no way for units to get through. BUT, you can use workers to use 'gather' and go through the gates, similar to Plasma. Except that it's a permanent, invincible egg wall.
- Due to the availability of 4 island expansions that are relatively safe, even if you don't hold the center, you are not in a disadvantage. - Each place has different amount of resources. Main minerals patches are at 1500, natural at 1750, 3rd at 1250, and island at 1000. - Only workers can cross the paths at the corner expansions using the mineral patches. Other units cannot walk there due to the gates. - There are 24 stacked mineral patches at the entrance of corner expansions. Rush time: 31 seconds (horizontal and vertical), 37 seconds (diagonal)
Original pictures and descriptions from: www.fomos.kr (Fomos)
Theres no way that last one isn't a joke... where is the DETAIL??? Lets not forget the main bases have like 4 mineral patches. Ghost path looks a bit worrisome for pvz when trying to fast expo... in fact all of these maps except for Polaris Rhapsody look like they are amateur maps.
On March 14 2010 01:32 Whiplash wrote: Theres no way that last one isn't a joke... where is the DETAIL??? Ghost path looks a bit worrisome for pvz when trying to fast expo... in fact all of these maps except for Polaris Rhapsody look like they are amateur maps.
Okay, the last map needs some explanation.
If you see the 4 corners, you notice some black thing at the entrances. Those are neutral 'gates'. There is no way for units to get through. BUT, you can use workers to use 'gather' and go through the gates, similar to Plasma. Except that it's a permanent, invincible egg wall.
havent got a chance to look at all the maps carefully but polaris looks really cool, i like how there's three paths of entry into the natural and also the possibility of "claiming" either a vertical position (left vs right) or a horizontal one (top vs bottom). Most 1v1 maps have one clear direction of claiming position but this one really looks like both are viable
On March 14 2010 01:50 konadora wrote: Lyriene, if you don't mind, I'll translate the concepts and extra info about the maps. My passion for new maps is burning!
well yeah, the tilesets are similar and they both have a bunch of squares, but checkmate has only two "squares" with highground, only two ramps, tankable natural, 2player map vs 4 player, restricted routes of travel within the main --> natural --> 2nd expansion/battlefield.
geometry looks nuts though... a square version of HBR in terms of hill control
This batch of maps actually looks decent imo. Inferno is really standard but not bad by any means.
Except Checkmate (Geometry. Doesn't use high ground nearly as much as its previous incarnatino though). Looks pretty damm boring.
And who the **** let Fortress in? It's like DMZ where they just spotted a cool concept and made a half-assed map to put in proleague. Seriously, PUT SOME FREAKIN WORK INTO IT!
On March 14 2010 02:08 wishbones wrote: yayayayayayaya finally they release 5 instead of just 2 again and again. How long has it been since they release so many at once?
expect 2-3 to not make the cut in the next round, they're probably going to filter out again
so those little lines that look black or like a cliff on the Fortress map are actually gates OH not gateways ahaha but gates from campaigns. Know how they work, locked or unlocked? Would be interesting if they only unlocked after getting to the other side. :O Then remained unlocked for the remainder of the game.
- Instead of the modern trend, which is making maps that are a combination of high and low ground and has multiple paths to allow engagements to happen everywhere, this is an all-low ground map. - Design based off chess boards - A billion possible paths for endless engagements - Most expos are easily accessible without going through ramps and high ground disadvantages due to map being main all low-ground, so unit count will be important - Island expos give more reasons to use dropships and air units.
Ghost Path
- Heavy engagement-encouraging map - Two entrances to main - Bottom path for early small-sized army engagements - Top path for heavy guerrilla warfare and huge army faceoffs - Far third gas - Main can be tankable from beyond the 'walls' that surround it
Polaris Rhapsody
- Three different routes to mains gives players more options to use various strategies that suits their playing style (aggressive, defensive, standard, all-in, etc) - All three routes are different. Fastest route has narrow bridge, 3/9 oclock requires you to get over ramps and 12/6 oclock requires you to get over two ramps. - 1/7 oclock expos are safe and easily takeable by the players starting at 11/5 respectively - But, for 3/9 expos, both players can take it. Hence, holding the center of the map (and the high ground surround it) becomes important for late game play.
Inferno
- Reused the 'backdoor' concept from Medusa, but this time with 100% less worker bug issues. - Island expos that can be made into non-island expos gives players more variety in choosing their strategies. For example, players can use similar strategies they used on Ultimatum, but tweak it slightly to suit the map (for players can opt to rush and break down the neutral buildings, making it non-island and vulnerable to harass). - 3 gas expos that can be accessed on foot, and 3 by air (until you break down the neutral buildings). This forces players to make smart decisions on where to expand, which can lead to new strategies that can only be used on this map.
Grand Line
- Spawn positions matter heavily, as different spawn positions = need to go through different terrains - Requires you to choose your strategy after you scout (or basically, scouting is pretty damn important here)
Fortress
-
On March 14 2010 01:35 konadora wrote: If you see the 4 corners, you notice some black thing at the entrances. Those are neutral 'gates'. There is no way for units to get through. BUT, you can use workers to use 'gather' and go through the gates, similar to Plasma. Except that it's a permanent, invincible egg wall.
- Due to the availability of 4 island expansions that are relatively safe, even if you don't hold the center, you are not in a disadvantage.
well yeah, the tilesets are similar and they both have a bunch of squares, but checkmate has only two "squares" with highground, only two ramps, tankable natural, 2player map vs 4 player, restricted routes of travel within the main --> natural --> 2nd expansion/battlefield.
geometry looks nuts though... a square version of HBR in terms of hill control
Remember that Geometry was a horrible failure of a map too. They probably tried to fix that.
On March 14 2010 01:47 flamewheel91 wrote: Uhhh Checkmate, really? Tanks are going to own.
Chill's principle of map analysis in action here
Yea, I've figured out tanks own everywhere. I thought Katrina was going to be such a T-weighted map, you can just tank everywhere and you can't flank. That place was a Terran mass burial site.
These maps...... are cool if Checkmate becomes official, the commentators will be like "Right now, Bisu needs to take control of the Q Panel to get back into the game!"
ok these are my thoughts...im not super pro sc player or anyhting but oh well.
ok acutally i have no ide abotu checkmate apart frmo that it looks hilarious
eaarly-miod game zvt looks like the natural will be mutalisk harass heaven for zerg :D:D cuz air distance is so close... while late game if terran can get a billion tanks and hold the top areas it will be really hard for .. P or Z to break -_- little bridges, and ton of high and low groudn ups and downs.
polaris looks friggin sweet haha, like matchpoint vs sin chupung ryeong.. players will have to be moving around all the time!
inferno just looks like some standard 3 player macro thing...seems like arrangement of the expansions will favour terran in tvp? can push along one route towards the enemy.
grandline.. holdin the centre will be important ~~
FORTRESS i have a feeling it will be bad cuz it reminds me of Sin Pioneer Period.. super 'small' map with super small push distances... z and p in for a hard time/
All in all some really cool maps, Ghost Path and Inferno my favorite just looking at them. Checkmate and Fortress, on the other hand, look like crap. How is zerg supposed to get a 3rd on Fortress? take an island?
On March 14 2010 02:46 Xxio wrote: How is zerg supposed to get a 3rd on Fortress? take an island?
yep either that or main
besides, if u get a fast third at the islands, there's nothing the opponent can do about it except to drop, which by then there will already be mutalisks.
Haha Checkmate looks rofltastic. So does Fortress, but at least it has a cool semi-island mechanic. If you make a map called Inferno, why do you draw Solomon's seal instead of a pentagram?
I think carriers could be very strong on Ghost Path, anyone agree?
Checkmate and Fortress seem horrid and imbalanced, hope they never make it into pro game (I'm tempted to put Ghost Path there as well cause main+nat are so open and vulnerable to muta/reaver sort of harassments and cause of 2 nat entrances on completely opposite sides)
Polaris looks very interesting, I don't like that 3rd is so hard to defend (think tvp) but it would be a blast in late game
Wow checkmate is by far weirdest and most unique map I have seen. Im really laughing at the alphabets there. Its like alphabet soup lol. Anyways I hope we will be able to see some games on there to see what kind of strats the pros will come up with.
It really looks like it's from One Piece. The middle is the Grand Line and the outside areas are the Calm Belt. I'm pretty excited about these new maps.
I remember that one map with the lurker eggs everywhere blocking paths. . . . That looked crap. But compared to checkmate it's map design genius at work. Holy cow what the hell is up with that map?
Inferno looks soooooo sweet. And the rest do as well. Fortress is T_T. WTF? Put some damn effort into it.
OMG all those maps rock!! Few exceptions: Checkmate- Although it looks interesting, and its definitely original its to squareish for my taste, and it also looks like a map form a good amount of years back.
Ghost path- As a mapper, its sexy, creative and original as hell, but I just get the feeling that it will be horrible to play this, and I dont like the type of symmetry the mapper used, and looks to tight, i dont see how T vs P can happen here... (every thing is tankable)
Finally: Fortress- This better be not finished, because it looks like a little kid opened scmdraft2 and started joking around, its such a noob map, or it could even be related to an old bilz map. It just sucks so bad I HATE IT!! Everything is so bad; deco, execution, concept, positional imba... I could make a hole essay about how bad this map is.
The other three ( The good 1s IMO)
Grand Line- Great map, concept, deco, execution, balance are outstanding my only critique is that I would have preferred another title set.
Inferno- Beautiful, just beautiful, that middle is as sexy as it gets, I love the bridges and the neutral buildings. On the other side: The path issue will be horrible and I think this will piss of many players. Also the distance from nat2nat of red 2 blue looks much shorter than the one 2 teal, and my last complaint is the positional imbalance on reds high ground neutral blocked expo, but that is really really hard 2 avoid in (3) player maps. OMG that middle is just 2 SEXY!!!
Polaris Rhapsody- Starting off, what a cool name this is! And it gos perfectly with this super map. I have no complaints of map (at first sight) The concept, the custom terrain and the custom ramps are fantastic !!! What a great map!!
IMO this is a much better map pool than last season, except for that map fortress, what a shitty ass map that is, let it burn in hell!
Ghost path makes no sense at all... tank/mines = gg? swarm x5 = gg?
I love Checkmate though.. it's like an isometric chessboard (and now when you're obsing, you'll always know what spot on the map you're looking at). You can even refer to expansions by letter rather than _oclock xD
Holy shit Grand Line and Polaris Rhapsody look crazy interesting. Not too fond Checkmate though. Looking forward to seeing these maps being played on =D!
i like ghostpath, polaris rhapsody and inferno looks ok. checkmate and fortress must be bad jokes and look absolutely horrible, i mean the graphics....
grand line ... i dont know what to think of this map yet. but somehow i got the impression that both ghost path and grand line will be heavily imba in tvp....
Just watch, the next "brilliant" map concept someone is going to come up with is creating a map where the terrain changes automatically over time with the use of timers and invincible neutral buildings or something stupid like that... -_- They need to stop with these nonsense maps already... I'm all for progress, but they should do it gradually rather than try to radically change we play the game with each new map.
now that i took a closer look at it, i think grand line might produce some really great matches. ghost path looks totally imba, how are P or Z supposed to win vs tanks and mines there? polaris rhapsody seems the most standard map too, and inferno is also rather standard. i absolutely despise the visuals of checkmate and fortress though, yikes!
is it possible to forge fe on ghost path? 2 distinct entrances to the natural, both huge, and on opposite sides of the base. if someone doesnt figure out some ridiculous simcity, im going to go ahead and predict 80+% zvp win rate on that map.
On March 14 2010 09:07 Chen wrote: is it possible to forge fe on ghost path? 2 distinct entrances to the natural, both huge, and on opposite sides of the base. if someone doesnt figure out some ridiculous simcity, im going to go ahead and predict 80+% zvp win rate on that map.
and i predict 90+% tvp winrate aswell... imagine the toss is on the left and the T sieges up there:
how are u supposed to attack this position at all? obviously the bottom path is completely useless in tvp once midgame has started...
On March 14 2010 09:07 Chen wrote: is it possible to forge fe on ghost path? 2 distinct entrances to the natural, both huge, and on opposite sides of the base. if someone doesnt figure out some ridiculous simcity, im going to go ahead and predict 80+% zvp win rate on that map.
and i predict 90+% tvp winrate aswell... imagine the toss is on the left and the T sieges up there:
how are u supposed to attack this position at all? obviously the bottom path is completely useless in tvp once midgame has started...
Yeah.. this map will probably force P's to go for fast arbs. There's like no good location to engage a Terran army
On Inferno couldnt a terran lift a cc onto the expo with the temple protecting it and drop a few tanks or rines and mass turrets? seams like a extreamly easy and safe third for terran
I love how there is only five mineral on the main of Fortress hahaha. Literally screaming at players to go out and take expansions. All of these maps are pretty funny/cool-looking, so I don't mind any of them. I just wish some noticeable balance issues will be found and taken care off while preserving the spirit of the maps. I wouldn't mind seeing little more decoration at middle part of Fortress either.
fortress seems interesting. checkmate is just weird and ghost path is too crowded IMO. I also don't like how tanks can attack the main from behind walls
Guess KeSPA wants to make more maps that will ensure that Flash wins everything :/
Anyway, Grand Line and Polaris are pretty awesome.
I like Ghost Path because I feel like the double-ramped natural (that's what I'm seeing, right?) will force more tosses to go 1-base tech vs zerg, could make for some delicious games.
But in all honesty, hopefully they only use that map for PvZ and TvT, because sweet Jesus, that map was tailor-made for tanks.
On March 14 2010 09:07 Chen wrote: is it possible to forge fe on ghost path? 2 distinct entrances to the natural, both huge, and on opposite sides of the base. if someone doesnt figure out some ridiculous simcity, im going to go ahead and predict 80+% zvp win rate on that map.
forge/gateway at btm, pylon position so that both top and bottom can be covered. probably forge/gateway closer to the main's ramp.
On March 14 2010 09:07 Chen wrote: is it possible to forge fe on ghost path? 2 distinct entrances to the natural, both huge, and on opposite sides of the base. if someone doesnt figure out some ridiculous simcity, im going to go ahead and predict 80+% zvp win rate on that map.
i wouldnt say those ramps are huge, plus you have high ground advantage at your natural which is rare
still, 2hatch muta will yield a deadly arrival time on ghost path.... im by far no good player or expert in anything sc-related, but to me this map looks like it will be z>>>>> t, z >>>> p and t >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> p....
On March 14 2010 09:07 Chen wrote: is it possible to forge fe on ghost path? 2 distinct entrances to the natural, both huge, and on opposite sides of the base. if someone doesnt figure out some ridiculous simcity, im going to go ahead and predict 80+% zvp win rate on that map.
and i predict 90+% tvp winrate aswell... imagine the toss is on the left and the T sieges up there:
how are u supposed to attack this position at all? obviously the bottom path is completely useless in tvp once midgame has started...
Yeah.. this map will probably force P's to go for fast arbs. There's like no good location to engage a Terran army
i see this being either TvT or ZvZ only map, i highly doubt protoss will ever get to play it except at the very early stages of it
On March 14 2010 09:07 Chen wrote: is it possible to forge fe on ghost path? 2 distinct entrances to the natural, both huge, and on opposite sides of the base. if someone doesnt figure out some ridiculous simcity, im going to go ahead and predict 80+% zvp win rate on that map.
and i predict 90+% tvp winrate aswell... imagine the toss is on the left and the T sieges up there:
how are u supposed to attack this position at all? obviously the bottom path is completely useless in tvp once midgame has started...
Yeah.. this map will probably force P's to go for fast arbs. There's like no good location to engage a Terran army
Or carriers. Look at the pathing! How the hell are goliaths possibly going to chase them down?
Of course if you look at the maps with the current playstyles it's going to be very imbalanced. Hopefully people will come up with creative strategies that work. Seems to me like they're stepping away from macro style with more difficult large army ground paths. Maybe we'll see more aggression and small army engagements.
These look nice, they seem "fresh" to me. Hopefully will show some new kind of styles. Just gotta hope theyll end up reasonably balanced, seems quite hard to say yet since many of them will play so differently than what were used to.
It's common to complain about TvP imba on new and unusual maps, because that matchup depends so heavily on the terrain, and because new and unusual maps tend to contain:
1) Cramped spaces (particularly a cramped path Terran can push along) 2) Very easy thirds, often very easy fourth or even fifth expansions 3) Easy sneak-around paths for vultures (bonus points if they're too narrow for a dragoon-heavy Protoss army to maneuver through, and even more if they can't be blocked with pylons) 4) 'Tankable' positions that drastically cut the push distance for Terran but not for Protoss
A large, open map with expansions pushed up against the sides of the map and a couple handy chokes so that vultures can't easily raid your bases, and either a difficult third or a difficult fourth, will allow Protoss to set up a favorable macro game against Terran and wear them down. Even a 200/200 3/3 Terran ball is susceptible to 20+gateways of reinforcement, provided the terrain allows Protoss to spread out and flank. If the terrain does not, Protoss has to take a more aggressive hand and prevent the Terran from ever getting that many units. Terran defense being as strong as it is, this is hard unless the map is friendly to carriers.
Wow, this map pool is crazy. I was worried about map makers after last boring map poll. But this surpass all expectations.
Checkmate is like ok map. Rather standart to be honest
Inferno seems like Medusa + Moon Glaive + Blistering Sands :D I like the idea of second entrance to main base though it can be little unbalanced. This map dont seem very novice but it's ok
I actually dont like Fortress. It reminds me of boring Judgement Day... And it doesnt seem balanced with so short distances between main bases
But other maps...
Ghost Path is so novice, with two different paths to enemy base. This idea already was on Monty Hall and Hitchhiker and those maps were awesome. Anyway this map looks rather novice.
Polaris Rhapsody I love this kind of maps. It's great when u can attack straight or from sides. It gives to players many strategical moves.
Grand Line Same as Polaris Rhapsody, i love this kind of maps. I'm looking forward to watch many awesome games on these maps.
everyone keeps talking about how ghosts path is like montys hall.. but i think polaris is most similar to monty hall. not just because there are three directions of attack but also there are three possible directions to take your third, each with their positives, drawbacks and strategic implications
checkmate ~ geometry looks awful because it's really hard to make sense of the map; just very visually confusing
ghost path reminds me a lot of valley of the wind looks sexy as hell but I question its balance because it also reminds me of monty hall and baekmagoji
polaris rhapsody is another map in the vein of blue storm / match point, looks pretty interesting, dig the expo placement
inferno is medusa except they moved your backdoor min only to an island and gave it a gas. blech
grand line is very reminiscent of iron curtain except obv it's a 1v1 map. looks decent but I worry about balance and it's not as exciting as its compatriots
no idea what to think about fortress, best comparison might be plasma. very likely it's not very balanced
Checkmate: Looks absolutely ridiculous. God, when the players look at the minimap, they'll be seeing those letters all over... Ugh. As for the map itself... "Meh" is all I have to say.
Ghost Path: Really interesting map, buuut it looks like there will never be a PvZ on this map because Forge FE looks impossible.
Polaris Rhapsody: Looks standard... But why is the third gas so freaking far? You have to take such a long trek to get to it.
Inferno: It's like Medusa.
Grand Line: Interesting... Not really. It feels really generic.
Fortress: The ability to camp tanks on top of that cliff near the natural is scary. Aside from that, it's like gas heaven. I sense the resurgence of Outsider-like strategies on that map.
When there be games played to test them out like they did with last batch of map pool? If it's so, does anyone have idea about when it will be taking place?
iunno..im looking forward to playing on checkmate. looks like a giant maze you have to learn to maneuver through, thus making up for the lack of terrain differences. makes scouting that much more important
I'm really surprised that Grand Line's rush-distances are actually all the same (except diagonal ofc), that right there is an impressive bit of map-making
Does anyone know when the maps will be released to the public?? (want to play them want to play them)
does anyone else think that inferno will be tardedly for terran? i mena right outside the natural you can siege up a pretty short distance and have access to 2 more gas..
edit: Actually Polaris Rhapsody looks pretty good and Ghost path might make for some interesting games. But really, Checkmate?? It looks like a sieged tank behind the natural could potentially reach natural and 3d gas expo mineral line, as well as main gas & buildings all at once. And Fortress must be some kind of bad joke. What were they thinking?
On March 15 2010 04:06 arb wrote: does anyone else think that inferno will be tardedly for terran? i mena right outside the natural you can siege up a pretty short distance and have access to 2 more gas..
I don't see that at all. It looks perfectly fine for the Protoss in PvT to me, though it might depend on which parts of the map are buildable. Terran has to expand counterclockwise, while Protoss expands in whichever direction the Terran isn't. The center of the map is very open, so it's tricky for Terran to defend many expansions or slow push anything.
On March 15 2010 04:06 arb wrote: does anyone else think that inferno will be tardedly for terran? i mena right outside the natural you can siege up a pretty short distance and have access to 2 more gas..
i think the distance is bigger than it looks, anyway you'd have to control 1/3 of the center to control 1/3 of the expansions, seems pretty fair
I'll give the mapmakers credit for the effort in making these maps look unique, but just from looking at them it would seem they may have gone a bit too far in that regard. Who knows though, maybe they know something i dont.
On March 15 2010 00:52 haster27 wrote: When there be games played to test them out like they did with last batch of map pool? If it's so, does anyone have idea about when it will be taking place?
Probably not. These maps are 'nominees' for the next round's map pool, that means there's a high possibility of not all the maps making it. And there's no time for tests, since after the WL finals, R4 should start soon. Not enough time for map testing + decision making + map balancing and stuff imo.
On March 15 2010 18:44 darktreb wrote: I don't get what all the hate is about - each of these maps looks very creative and we'll either get great maps or some hilarious games.
Yea!
I dont remember any interesting games on boring Moon Glaive/Tornado/Roadrunner... Though Heartbreak/Outsider/Medusa/Destination are legend maps of last 2 years It seams that some of these maps can become new legends for this year
On March 15 2010 18:44 darktreb wrote: I don't get what all the hate is about - each of these maps looks very creative and we'll either get great maps or some hilarious games.
Yea!
I dont remember any interesting games on boring Moon Glaive/Tornado/Roadrunner... Though Heartbreak/Outsider/Medusa/Destination are legend maps of last 2 years It seams that some of these maps can become new legends for this year
Those two maps had some pretty good games. (Mostly TvZs though).
On March 15 2010 18:44 darktreb wrote: I don't get what all the hate is about - each of these maps looks very creative and we'll either get great maps or some hilarious games.
Yea!
I dont remember any interesting games on boring Moon Glaive/Tornado/Roadrunner... Though Heartbreak/Outsider/Medusa/Destination are legend maps of last 2 years It seams that some of these maps can become new legends for this year
On March 15 2010 18:44 darktreb wrote: I don't get what all the hate is about - each of these maps looks very creative and we'll either get great maps or some hilarious games.
Yea!
I dont remember any interesting games on boring Moon Glaive/Tornado/Roadrunner... Though Heartbreak/Outsider/Medusa/Destination are legend maps of last 2 years It seams that some of these maps can become new legends for this year
Those two maps had some pretty good games. (Mostly TvZs though).
This one reminds of Asgard a bit. Asgard itself had a good concept but the execution was a bit botched. It looks like the mapmakers understood that, took the map and polished it a bit, but it the result doesn't seem very balanced. At first glance it seems like tanks would be imba, however, the multitude of different paths and expansion spots available, mean that terran will have a hard time turtling up, besides in the 3 initial bases, but one of those doesn't have gas. Couple that with a relatively resource rich map and terran potentially can have problems with refugee toss, or have it play out a bit like Sin Chupung-Ryeong where the protoss just runs circles around you. PvZ will be plagued with similar problems, this time however for the protoss.
Bio play in TvZ however, should provide with some great games, as it is a very mobile match-up, and this map seems to accomodate mobile army playstyles a lot. Moreover, the large mains and variety of angles to sneak drops in will be a pain in the ass, for both races, as we know that cracklings are very good at vacating space in the blink of an eye.
While the map looks promising, it needs just a tad more work to make it... more balanced I guess.
The gate mechanic looks very promising and will make this map a hell to make sense of. The only semi-sure thing is that terran can't turtle very effectively due to the huge perimeter of his main/nat. That fact and the "islands" almost insure some sort of early aggression against protoss. Either that or incorporating mad dropship play to keep him busy. Likewise, mech won't be very good agaisnt zerg, but anything else should be workable, which will probably mean a slew of sair/reaver openings vs zerg, lots of dropships, battlecruisers in TvT, etc.
Oh, by the way, looks like i you place tanks on the little high ground pods at 3/6/9 o'clock you can reach one of the gasses, while it seems that this isn't the case for 12.
I'd very much like to see these maps touched up a bit and into proleague circulation.
It is worthwhile to note Korea is one of the rare communities which Jewish population failed to penetrate. We are onto somthing here guys- and it's Robert Langdon scale.
Ghost path looks really interesting. I'm not sure how it will play out over time, but I think there's a lot of things that can be tried early on before a complete metagame is developed. I also think it might have been cool to add a very well protected center expansion. That's something I'd like to see in general at some point in the map making...
Why is there a "Jewish Badge" on Inferno? This is either severely racist or a fail Pentagram.
Korean ppl don't really give shit about that star being Jewish or pentagram...for most Koreans it's just star that looks cool in the center of the map...Only maybe the western and middle eastern culture would be sensitive toward such signs...
This said, I am absolutely sure that they just messed up and failed to draw a pentagram.
Oh, and I think the map can produce some interesting games.
I don't know that they meant to draw a pentagram (they could have just copied from HolyWorld). That said, I don't think thtey meant anything more than a cool design in the center.
Why is there a "Jewish Badge" on Inferno? This is either severely racist or a fail Pentagram.
Korean ppl don't really give shit about that star being Jewish or pentagram...for most Koreans it's just star that looks cool in the center of the map...Only maybe the western and middle eastern culture would be sensitive toward such signs...
It is not really being sensitive but rather knowing what each symbols means or represents. It seems kind of ignorant to out David's star on the map called inferno but whatever. In general I like that map as it looks cool but I fail to see why the map looks less appealing if there was a proper pentagram on it.
Why is there a "Jewish Badge" on Inferno? This is either severely racist or a fail Pentagram.
Korean ppl don't really give shit about that star being Jewish or pentagram...for most Koreans it's just star that looks cool in the center of the map...Only maybe the western and middle eastern culture would be sensitive toward such signs...
It is not really being sensitive but rather knowing what each symbols means or represents. It seems kind of ignorant to out David's star on the map called inferno but whatever. In general I like that map as it looks cool but I fail to see why the map looks less appealing if there was a proper pentagram on it.
Notice that there might be a greater symmetry problem if it's pentagram. I don't think it will be big enough to affect the game, but it is food for thought- why make map unnecessarily unsymmetrical?
Why is there a "Jewish Badge" on Inferno? This is either severely racist or a fail Pentagram.
Korean ppl don't really give shit about that star being Jewish or pentagram...for most Koreans it's just star that looks cool in the center of the map...Only maybe the western and middle eastern culture would be sensitive toward such signs...
It is not really being sensitive but rather knowing what each symbols means or represents. It seems kind of ignorant to out David's star on the map called inferno but whatever. In general I like that map as it looks cool but I fail to see why the map looks less appealing if there was a proper pentagram on it.
God dammit why can't they just release these maps to the public whether they include them in a league or not? They all look awesome if only because they're strange and change the way the game might be played. Fuck balance. They should all be played professionally if only for one season.
On April 07 2010 15:02 zobz wrote: God dammit why can't they just release these maps to the public whether they include them in a league or not? They all look awesome if only because they're strange and change the way the game might be played. Fuck balance. They should all be played professionally if only for one season.
Unfortunately with the volume of games that would be played on them balance and having a plethora of different viable playstyles is a must. We've seen what has happened when people have followed your line of thinking and in the long run it has not been enjoyable for viewers. Battle Royal, Raid Assault, and Geometry all come to mind as concept maps that seemed interesting but became very uninteresting very quick when they were dominated by one matchup in Proleague play.
That said it would be cool if all the maps that were play-tested were made available to the larger public.
Really looking forward to some games on grand line. I think the choices made were quite solid this time. I would have liked to see one of them replace roadrunner instead of new tornado. I absolutely hate that map.
Inferno expo / main layout reminds me of roadrunner.
Anyway I think they chose the 2 best maps. Checkmate and fortress were stupid and felt like they were made by an amateur. Looking at both polaris and grandline tho, theres no easy 3rd gas on both of them. Doesn't look like fun TvP.
As for ghost path...tehres absolutely no way protoss will do anything other than carriers. Its impossible to get a good position against a terran army. Then again the map looks like it might stack up with katrina for carrier imba
By the way, consider that they may not be using the OP's versions since they aren't considered final versions yet. They may add a gas for both maps wherever, so it's hard to predict atm
checkmates a joke. Ghost Path looks like it will be fun to obs games on assuming people use the maps crazy center and not just camp FE into air... Polar was probably made by the same guy who made bluestorm. lol at inferno grandline looks.....fun? fortress hurts my eyes.
Out of all the maps, I'm glad Polaris and Grand Line made it, Grand Line for the need for scouting and mixed strategies, and Polaris for looking cool. The other maps seemed more gimmicky to me.
LoL at inferno...if they meant to make a Satan star (coz u know inferno = hell..satan) they made a biiig mistake. They actually made a jewish star instead of the satan's one which has 5 angles (dunno how to say it)
I get the sense Grand Line might end up being a fun 2v2 map on iccup in addition to producing good 1v1 games. It's definitely reminiscent of Iron Curtain
he he, some of these maps are definitly new and creative, but:
Checkmate will be a pain for my poor toss, TvP will be to siege up and I can't imagne how easy it will be to lurker control the twists and turns in ZvP. Though I suspect Mirror matches might very interesting on this map.
Ghost Path, ha ha seriously? looks like my worst nightmare in map making: seemed to have spawned doodads and random terrain everywhere. Still, the map is symmetrical and could show some interesting ZvP Dark storm vs Psi storm for control of the trenches. as for terran on the map... will just have to wait and see.
Polaris Rhapsody, looks cool enough. nothing more to say on this.
Inferno, I agree with those who said this map might be the new Python (new tornado maybe) Still the name is a bit misleading, unless Fomos is really antisemitic and considers the jews to be spawns of hell... Which I seriously doubt. They should either change the star or rename the map to Solomon or something. Reminds me a bit of moonglave aswell, with a new tileset, which I personally love.
Grand line... do not like one piece, do like this map though. The island expos at 9|3 is really cool (not tankable if I am right), Hopefully this map will proove a new dawn for toss players (I see carriers raping everything on this map) demanding the secure the middel highground ofc
Fortress, this is a joke right? that looks like something I could have built in world editor or SCdraft.. ffs prepear to see T own everything tanking from the corner expos to the mains or ther other way (yes you can\t run them through the gate, but you can build them or drop them...) I am completely sorry, but if this map doesn't go then something is reeeeaaaallllyyyy wrong with the people choosing these maps
Checkmate is fine, but what's with the ugly letters? Fortress looks like jungle to me, not space. But it is using the installation/badlands/space doors.
P.S: o... looks like Polaris Rhapsody has some issues, they're fixing it right now... lol gj KeSPA SPL starts FREAKING TOMORROW and you're still fixing bugs? =_=;;;
Looks like the only changes made were removing center expo and making the corner expos into 2 gas expansions in Polaris Rhapsody. Also made those corner expos untankable heh. Middle's unbuildable now.
For Grand Line, the only changes I see are the removal of center expansions and tighter chokes at nat and mineral-only. Islands are now smaller too.
Thank goodness the two non-joke maps were included. I'd like to see Ghost Path tweaked and brought back for a second try though, that map was the only other that looked promising.
On April 10 2010 09:08 lone_hydra wrote: God, I really wanted to see at least 1 pro game played on checkmate for the total lols. Oh well, 2 more standard maps.
You can always fly to Korea and watch Dream League :p
Match Point ㆍ수정사항 - 6시, 12시 가스멀티 구석 쪽 시즈탱크 포격 지점 장식물 제거 - 중앙 3시 방향 쪽 언덕지형이 가운데로 약간 이동 (3시→12시 경로 방해 수정)
Judgement Day ㆍ수정사항 - 중앙 성곽의 일부가 축소되어 유닛의 흐름이 더 좋아지도록 수정
Roadrunner ㆍ수정사항 - 6시, 12시 본진미네랄 배치 형태를 가로에서 세로로 수정 - 6시, 12시 본진 입구가 앞마당 건너편 다리에서 시즈탱크에 의해 포격되는 부분 수정 - 중앙에서 3번째 가스멀티로 들어올 수 있는 길을 바깥쪽으로 이동 (앞마당 벽 건너에서 탱크로 방어가 용이한 부분 수정)
On April 10 2010 14:58 pachi wrote: Match Point ㆍ수정사항 - 6시, 12시 가스멀티 구석 쪽 시즈탱크 포격 지점 장식물 제거 - 중앙 3시 방향 쪽 언덕지형이 가운데로 약간 이동 (3시→12시 경로 방해 수정)
Judgement Day ㆍ수정사항 - 중앙 성곽의 일부가 축소되어 유닛의 흐름이 더 좋아지도록 수정
Roadrunner ㆍ수정사항 - 6시, 12시 본진미네랄 배치 형태를 가로에서 세로로 수정 - 6시, 12시 본진 입구가 앞마당 건너편 다리에서 시즈탱크에 의해 포격되는 부분 수정 - 중앙에서 3번째 가스멀티로 들어올 수 있는 길을 바깥쪽으로 이동 (앞마당 벽 건너에서 탱크로 방어가 용이한 부분 수정)
Google translate says Match Point And fixes - 6:00, 12:00 Siege Tanks bombard the gas multi-point-side corner of the decoration removed - Central 3 o'clock side of the hill a little bit of terrain moving (3:00 → 12 시 path interference correction)
Judgement Day And fixes - A central part of the castle has been reduced making it better modify the flow of units
Roadrunner And fixes - 6:00, 12:00 Posted headquarters minerals form in horizontally and vertically modification - 6:00, 12:00 a yard across from the entrance to the headquarters in the legs are bombarded by modifying the Siege Tank - Multi-gas into the center comes from the third to move to the outer road (across the wall in the front yard portion of the tank is easy to defend as a unit sujeongeo modify the flow of making it better
Official Patch Translation (by me :D) Match Point: - 6/12 oclock can now longer be sieged behind a protected doodad (doodad is removed) - Made 3 oclock central ramp closer to center/further from side of map - Changed 7oclock starting position's minerals
Judgment Day: - Center is a bit more open - Some mineral placement changes - Shifted 1/5/7's starting position a bit
Roadrunner: - 11/5 oclock mineral placement changed to vertical instead of horizontal - Moved bridge a bit further from choke at 11/5 starting position's nat - Changed the 3rd gas's layout a bit to allow better unit flow and widen choke
Hmm... there seems to be a big disparity between 5 o'clock and 11 o'clock in terms of gas-mining efficiency. Someone on WF has tested it out, and found out that 5 o'clock has an per-minute rate of 272, while 11 o'clock is 312. That seems to be a big difference lol, and might be one of the reason why Calm lost today... How did KeSPA not discover this before the map was used?
On April 10 2010 19:20 wfoperational wrote: Hmm... there seems to be a big disparity between 5 o'clock and 11 o'clock in terms of gas-mining efficiency. Someone on WF has tested it out, and found out that 5 o'clock has an per-minute rate of 272, while 11 o'clock is 312. That seems to be a big difference lol, and might be one of the reason why Calm lost today... How did KeSPA not discover this before the map was used?
Will someone please confirm this?
I think you're right.
At 11 o'clock:
The drones continuously move in the red path, no disruption.
At 5 o'clock:
The drones sometimes move a bit away from the path that is taken at 11 o'clock, instead going on the orange path. Over time it should accumulate to a pretty big sum. I think it's not a map issue though. Drones have the worst mining AI, and tend to go pretty haywire while other two races' workers - not so much. Shifting the mining position by a few grids may help though. One example is Fighting Spirit's mineral lines. On Fighting Spirit it works well, but on other maps that I've tried to use that same mineral formations, the drones (and sometimes other workers too) go on a different path than on Fighting Spirit.
Yep, this is confirmed then, there is a positional imbalance on Polaris Rhapsody... Hopefully KeSPA have already caught on and is fixing the problem as we speak...
※ 1.3버전 수정사항 - 6시, 12시 본진미네랄 배치 형태를 가로에서 세로로 수정 - 6시, 12시 본진 입구가 앞마당 건너편 다리에서 시즈탱크에 의해 포격되는 부분 수정 - 중앙에서 3번째 가스멀티로 들어올 수 있는 길을 바깥쪽으로 이동 (앞마당 벽 건너에서 탱크로 방어가 용이한 부분 수정)
On April 10 2010 15:17 konadora wrote: Official Patch Translation (by me :D) Match Point: - 6/12 oclock can now longer be sieged behind a protected doodad (doodad is removed) - Made 3 oclock central ramp closer to center/further from side of map - Changed 7oclock starting position's minerals
Judgment Day: - Center is a bit more open - Some mineral placement changes - Shifted 1/5/7's starting position a bit
Roadrunner: - 11/5 oclock mineral placement changed to vertical instead of horizontal - Moved bridge a bit further from choke at 11/5 starting position's nat - Changed the 3rd gas's layout a bit to allow better unit flow and widen choke
konadora, are you korean? i've been reading your "translations" and they are not accurate translations. it's possible that the changes you listed were made, but many of them weren't mentioned.
On April 10 2010 15:17 konadora wrote: Official Patch Translation (by me :D) Match Point: - 6/12 oclock can now longer be sieged behind a protected doodad (doodad is removed) - Made 3 oclock central ramp closer to center/further from side of map - Changed 7oclock starting position's minerals
Judgment Day: - Center is a bit more open - Some mineral placement changes - Shifted 1/5/7's starting position a bit
Roadrunner: - 11/5 oclock mineral placement changed to vertical instead of horizontal - Moved bridge a bit further from choke at 11/5 starting position's nat - Changed the 3rd gas's layout a bit to allow better unit flow and widen choke
konadora, are you korean? i've been reading your "translations" and they are not accurate translations. it's possible that the changes you listed were made, but many of them weren't mentioned.
it's because some of them weren't mentioned in the original article, i had to keep looking back at the old version and spot the changes.
By Konadora: The drones sometimes move a bit away from the path that is taken at 11 o'clock, instead going on the orange path. Over time it should accumulate to a pretty big sum. I think it's not a map issue though. Drones have the worst mining AI, and tend to go pretty haywire while other two races' workers - not so much. Shifting the mining position by a few grids may help though. One example is Fighting Spirit's mineral lines. On Fighting Spirit it works well, but on other maps that I've tried to use that same mineral formations, the drones (and sometimes other workers too) go on a different path than on Fighting Spirit.
WOW THANKS THIS IS HUUUUUUUUUGE EDIT: Im sorry for the double post =( Really am, i forgot
EPT
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