|
It shouldn't be totally impossible to get blizzards attention about getting out a new series of patches to rebalance the game. I mean in the CS-community we whined about about it and put the people at valve against the wall after they'd been beating their chest claiming to have beeen listening to the community, and we urged them to tweak the game, and make some changes we've been wanting for a looong time.
PROTOSS)
DRAGOONS). Goons are WEAK. Not beacause of damage or range or hitpoints. Changing those won't mean much. They are weak because of their DEALYED FIRING. Why? Because in practical use in a fight they waste many shots against units that would be killed by a much smaller amount of shots being fired. With terran and zerg we have ranged units like hydras tanks or goliaths that all have direct fire, and thus there are a very low amount of shots being needlessly fired. If a unit does 25% more damage it doesn't mean much if 25% of the shots are wasted even if you try to babysit them during the fight and get as many hits as possible.
Range upgrade is very expensive considering it's an absolute must for this unit. It's almost useless without the extra range since it's so slow and have the delayd fire. Remember all those times the enemy units simply ran by all your goons without them hardly getting a shot off?
A.I. Goons are big and slow and they always get into trouble no matter how hard you try to micro or force-move them.
So what to do? Improve A.I. and make goons fire delay less (or even make an instant firecheck to reduce misfire, though that may be near impossible to implement.) By reducing the firedelay I do not mean cooldown, but simply the time to get the shot off when an enemy is spotted.
ROBOTICS) Isn't this one too expensive and builds too long? Sure lowering the cost and bildtime may further imbalance island but then again.. who cares about island games. It's needed in PvZ since psistorm doesn't kill lurkers in one blast (and it shouldn't IMO).
REAVERS)Well.. a great unit versus zerg but crap versus terran. However it is best against PROTOSS!?!? (battlecruiser anyone?)
Misfire is way to common with reavers. The A.I. for scarab is much to flawed. For the huge amount of recources you need to put in to get a reaver/shuttle/scarabs it shouldn't come down to nothing just because the A.I cannot fire correctly.
SCOUTS) Way to expensive compared to mutalisk and wraith. They lowered the price for wraiths a lot while hardly touching the scout cost. Either lower the cost or increase it's efficiency. However for the supply cost of three it sure is crap. I don't think scoutcraft would return nowadays even if cooldown versus ground was lowered.
SHUTTLE) Very expensive in terms of mineral plus it builds very slowly plus it moves extremely slow. Sure it's fast with upgrade but that takes an extra 350/400 plus a few minutes. On top of that just the robotics takes a long time to warp in. The reason for this is because once upon a time reverdrops we're too powerful. Nowadays reaverdrops are a joke and you need luck besides skills to pull one off. Lowering the cost for the speed upgrade is almost a must, however it would further unbalance the PvZ island map game. But on the other hand, I think we can just forget about island maps...  As it is now, instead of having the best dropships (fastest), protoss have the worst, since normally it wouldn't be worth all the time and resources to upgrade.
ZEALOT) Switching shield for normal hitpoints was a GOOD thing. It takes more damage from siegetanks and hydralisks, and the 1 armor also helps for those 20 difference. No need to change. Speed upgrade is a must for zealots, however lowering the cost would help protoss in PvZ. Don't know if 100/100 is too cheap though.
HIGH TEMPLAR) Cost is good. Psi-storm is good. Being able to kill lurkers with only one storm is perhaps too good. The imbalance with lurkers instead lie with the expesive and absolutely necessary goon range upgrade and expensive robotics factory, Since with protoss robotics or templar archives is very much an either-or choice in the beginning of the game. One thing though.. perhaps high templars should move somewhat faster, they are way to often left behind/arriving to late in battles. Still not as fast as regular units though since zerg need to have a chance to pick them off before they can do too much damage.
TERRAN)
SCV) Lots and lots and lots of hitpoints on this one. Sure it can't regenerate. BUT WHEN THE HELL HAS REGENRATION HELPED PROBES OR DRONES IN A FIGHT? Peon harassment sure, but that has mostly been favoring terrans anyways. Plus the fact that with the extra hitpoints marine/SCV rushes are extremely useful or when bunker-cheese-rusning a zerg. Lowering the hitpoints may be considered here. Also since because reaverdrops would be more useful. As it is now there is no protoss units capable of taking out SCVs at an expansion when the terran are withdraing his workers. Zealots dont hit, goons misfire and are too slow, reavers misfire, archons don't really appear that much in TvP and range is too low, carriers misfire too much. I don't know how many games I've seen when Almost ALL workers survive PLUS the command center when a protoss attacks an undefended expansion of a terran. Probes on the other hand die like crazy against pretty much any unit in the game . 50 hitpoints is enough methinks.
VULTURES) Dirt cheap and very powerful correctly used. Not sure they are to expensive since they die like crazy anyways. It is a unit designed for kamikaze missions anyway. Maybe it could be tweaked.
TANKS) Gee.. this is the big one that makes or breaks the game or certain maps. Whether a map is balanced or unbalanced depends on how much cheese or power you can get out of these sons of satan . Too many Cliffs or positions where terran only can attack or defend expansions unbalances the game. On open ground the unit isn't really unbalanced as it is now methinks. It's range NEED to be longer than reavers at least, and damage needs to be high as well since it will only get one shot off against a fast melee unit.
MEDIC) The neverdying marines are REALLY PESKY. Perhaps increase the amount of energy it takes to heal units, or slow the healing rate somewhat. I may be wrong about this one though, but a dropship with medarines are VERY hard to stop for a zerg. But on the other hand a zerg has an easier time expanding in most TvZ games. Open for tweaking.
DROPSHIP) So from having one of the crappier dropships in the game they suddenly got the best. It's very fast without having to upgrade plus it can carry more firepower than protoss or zerg ones. (Unless you consider shuttle/reaver but that's a combination with marginal use today on maps such as LT.) But I don't really think this unit is imbalanced.
GOLIATHS) From being a fairly crappy support unit this one has become a gamebreaker on island maps. But as I said above one shouldn't really take island maps into account when balancing the game since new units would need to be made most likely to balance the game. As it is now it's even good enough on it's own in large gruops without lots of tanks. Not really sure if it needs to be tweaked. A question though; is the Goliath ground range as long as upgraded goon or on lower?
TURRET) Perhaps it is too cheap. Either increase the cost to 100 or for the love of good reduce the rate of fire. These things spit missiles way to fast methinks. Since it's an Ground/Air ONLY it will destroy any single dropship anyways. My suggestion is to keep cost at 75, but in turn reduce the rate of fire. It is way too powerful against observers/Dropships as it is now. For those of you who say it's still needed against mutas? Nope. There are many other options for a terran to deal with them, reducing ROF wouldn't imbalance TvZ.
GENERAL) Like someone said some upgrades are simply ridiculous when compared to others. There much tweaking could be done. About damage upgrade for instance. As it is now you have to sacrifice resources (ie units or tech) early on to get a slight bonus later on. That seems fine, although how much time or money needed could perhaps be tweaked. The same goes for all other upgrades.
ZERG)
Hrm.. not really sure what to say about these. Spawn broodling is certainly too expensive compared to irradiate.
Lings are fine, Hydras are fine, mutas are fine. You can't really touch these units too much without having to reamake the game.
ULTRALISKS) Maybe they are too cheap in terms of supply.
CRACKLINGS) Ridiculously powerful when tearing down buildings. 6 lings destroy a base as fast as 12 zealots almost. But on the other hand they die like crazy against splashdamage units so...
SUNKEN) Are these too good?
I'm getting tired now.. so I'll post this as it is now. As you can see above there are some units I consider to be untouchables which the game revolves around, and others that needs to be tweaked to fit them and balance the matchups. My suggestions will powerup protoss slightly, downgrade terran slightly and pretty much keep zerg intact. Although the approach I suggest doesn't really mean making the units more powerful, but instead making them more useful in the different matchups.
It isn't impossible to get the designers attention. We simply need to make them understand that they do not understand the game as well as the professionals or the gaming community. They need to get rid of the "It's our game and we do what we want" attitude. That's simply bullshit price and it doesn't help them sell any games, since the quality of the games will be lower. Only post SERIOUS suggestions here, and debate points: pros and cons. If we manage to reach some sort of conclusion we can then perhaps go further and spread the word and get blizzard to start a new series of balance patches perhaps. What do you think?
|
United States33340 Posts
totally unpossible!
|
This old post is unavailable due to an encoding issue. Please contact an admin if you would like this post restored for historical reasons.
|
U think wax?  Oh well, however all these changes are fairly minor I consider here, so I don't see any gamebreakers right away. It would further mean that mapcreators would have greater freedom in creation since they wouldn't have to think of game-balance in terms of maps as much as in terms of races. I for one think BW is ready for another series of tweaking to breathe som new life into the game!
|
if all u posted here was done protoss would kick all other races ass
|
too many upgrades for toss and not enough for other races
|
Tell me why? Because I certainly don't see MANY upgrades for protoss. I mean a 50 cheaper robotics or a few seconds faster or 125/125 goon range are hardly gamebreakers. You open your mouth without thinking. It isn't about how MANY changes it is about what is means in practical terms. Those changes I suggested don't MEAN A SHIT compared to all the changes that was made from 1.07 to 1.08.
Seriously people need to learn how to think things through before opening their mouths.
For instance most of the PvZ imbalance lies not with how good the units are but simply because of zerg mobility. Protoss must keep a strong center amry which is slow, while zerg can run about freely tearing buildings apart if the toss army is away.
PvT imbalance lies with the fact that the siegetanks outranges the protoss units. It's not really about how powerful it is. Most of the imbalance simply lies with the options the terran has because of this.
Geez. Plz think before answering. Serisously. Read through the changelog from 1.07 to 1.08 and compare it to the VERY FEW suggestions I made here. THEN TELL ME TOO MANY CHANGES ARE BEING MADE! Wait.. you probable still would but you would still be very wrong... Oh well.
|
Norway28642 Posts
you forgot the one change I want to see the most : O
maelstorm increased duration or 75 energy cost~
I think the game is good as it is, or else I wouldn't be randoming.
terran happens to be the race I lose the most with anyway.
|
very good suggestions. i can tell you've put a lot of thought into the game but i disagree with some of your ideas
first of all the whole goon thing if it is possible to correct that mis fire when you re attack that would be great.
i will touch quickly on a few units and all the matchups
pvz - scouts like you said need to be changed so retarded as they are
shuttle research of speed could be lowered that would make protoss a little more mobile. and it would be good for non-island maps
ok pvz the only reason protoss has a disadvantage is early game. otherwise it's completey balanced. therefore i would make 0 changes to units i would edit the time/cost of buildings .. this is the only way it may be corrected
a few examples would be maybe make storm a bit cheaper to research or temp archive less gas.. perhaps even increase the mineral lower the gas.
pvz island.... the real imbalance here is sair. they eat up muta and scourge too fast. the only way to fix it would be to change sair somehow or make dev cheaper to get. (too bad zerg can't build sunken before the hatch that would fix it  )... perhaps decrease the reavers splash damage. suggestoins please
terrans
scv .. yea.. reduce life to 50.. maybe.. but then again that makes all the terran scv strategys weaker.. then again they might be too strong when you have too many scv..
the rest of the units are absolutely fine. all your thinking about is how strong units are in the game and making them all weaker. your not thinking so much of balance. turrets dont bother zerg and it doesnt really make much of a difference in tvp except carriers which are NEEDED
vultures might be changed to 90 life? iuno what you guys think of that 1 more hit per unit cause they get eatin up so fast as it is in big battles
tanks. perhaps increase the speed in which they move. i wouldnt even consider changing anything else
but i think the best way to understand is to ask some protoss and terran players. im not so i'll leave that to them
changed medic energy? hell no rine/medic are fine golaiths are fine
.. i want to hear all your thoughts on this matchup from the gosu t and p players
zerg ahh my race
lets see add 100+ weapon/armor per upgrade
broodling 1 energy per brood
add 5000 life to infested terran
give mutas the ability to hit 10 units at a time : )
i dont want to think of anything you might change with zerg
but lets see. broodling 125 energy might be ok. no less
this would allow for you to be able to broodling twice perhaps 130 energy would be perfect
like i said make dev (50/50 cost) or (50/25) or (25/50) or (75/25) perhaps to combat the sair. or do something to fix scourges but i can't think of what without messing up too many other things.
sunkens are fine. if they were made weaker it would make zerg too weak
in too many situations.
rine and tank eat up hydra so fast. but then again lurker eat up rine very fast as well. and i cant think of editing these without messing up zvp too much.
dark swarm decreased to 30 seconds ? maybe? is it too strong?
not much else i can say except that this game is already balanced so well. with making 1 change to 1 unit can have an effect in so many other places.
|
Actually it is common knowledge that the game itself is balanced, and the map is all that influence the real balance.
This game will be as balance with small changes because the key to balance is the counterability.
Big issues have been fixed few patches ago.
After the disaster of 1.10, noone even dare to ask for a new patch :D
We have a game we can live with.
Lets be happy! 
|
Norway28642 Posts
what people need to remember about the queen is that it only costs 100/100. that makes it (apart from ghosts and medics) the least expensive spellcaster in the game (as gas is generally more valuable than minerals)
in addition it flies at high speed. thus you can't expect the spells to be THAT great, although ensnare definitely is.
: O
|
omg you are realy stupid you think all terran units should nerf and all toss units should upf lol thats crazy
|
Some of the reasoning you have here is flawed. I may not be correct about everything BUT:
If changes were made to the game so that carriers only had an attack damage of 4 and robotics cost 250/250 the TvP matchup wouldn't really be that different. The changes looks so drastic on paper but the don't mean as much in reality. Why carriers win many battles for protoss is because the terran isn't ready to counter them and their range is too great for a terran to get them with goliats if they are backup by goons and templars. And a protoss only builds ONE robotics in most TvP games.
On paper it looks that the protoss would simply lose all games, but it only makes is slightly harder for the protoss. No real change is being made to how the matchup is being played. A drastic example I know, but my point is still correct.
The game would be balanced even if goons had less hitpoints. It's about timing. Having the right units at the right place many times etc. However, what I'm suggesting here is that some races shouldn't have to play in an uphill struggle for a long period of the game. Do you understand what I mean now about balance?
|
"ROBOTICS) Isn't this one too expensive and builds too long? Sure lowering the cost and bildtime may further imbalance island but then again.. who cares about island games."
This one deserve 
|
hehehe, some funny shit -.-v
|
The gamewinning concept for PvZ for protoss is usually about hitting with psistorm and make sure most of the units survive. It doesn't really matter much damage some units do since most of the damage is dealt by a few select units in most cases.
You focus too much about the numbers.. the number tweaking is simply to change the timing in the game and make certain sitiuations easier to survive or counter.
Even if a siegetank only did 50 damage a cliffdrop is still a cliffdrop and a protoss cannot defend against it from below. They need to counter-drop the cliff. The siegetank would still be able to kill the probes in peace and quiet and finally the nexus, only it would take a little longer.
All races can certainly win all matchups with a well executed strategy that strikes at the right time. What I suggest is simply to make some strategies easier to counter, and make sure more maps are playable.
About goons? What would make them too powerful? the fact that the first shot would come a split second faster? (it would ONLY affect the first shot.) And terran units still have instant fire so they still fire first. About the A.I thing about firing I don't think it's possible, and that would also mean all other races and units and not goons in particular. But disregard that, since it's probably not even feasible. So the only difference would be that now goons have the option of moving and waiting a slightly shorter time before firing. Would that imbalance the game? Would being able to counter properly the unit it WAS SUPPOSED TO COUNTER imbalance the game? hell no. As it is now vultures has too easy a time in surrounding and mining goons methinks. There are still tanks available for terran and they chew goons like nothing.
|
As i say, play fastest and you will notice how powerful protoss are+_+;
|
I think it can be pretty universally agreed that the robo tech tree of protoss is a bit imbalanced; shit takes too long to build and too much gas for the payoff, and shuttles bite dick.
maelstrom would be great if it lasted more than .00005 seconds, and / or cost less.
as for "fixing" goons.. the fix here is not specific to goons. it applys to gols, vults, goons, and reavers... all being completely incapable of navigating a map w/o constant babysitting, and units like reavers and goons can't be left to fight by themselves ever.
one of the things that i find somewhat imbalanced are vultures/scvs insane ability to block units with insane efficiency. most noticeable in tvp, where vults can really force toss units to eat mines and tank fire just by getting in the way then moving out, then moving back in the way, etc. scvs can do this but not with the same annoyance level as vults. i'm not sure if it's instentional but 5-6 vults facing the same direction standing end to end can block a LOT of shit.. plus they chew up all melee units in the game and have mines. i think that 100 cost for vults would not be out of line =\
|
I think you're all a bunch of whining pussies (:
|
ok been thinking about this from the thought you said and i and here are the following changes i might make
130 energy broodling
speed up temp slightly
change the min/gas of some researches and buildings for protoss(pvz balance) this would have to be carefully done over much consideration that's why im not going to post any ideas atm
change dev to (50/50 cost) or (50/25) or (25/50) or (75/25)
make scouts cheaper ! and maybe make them weaker as well : ) this would allow for scouts to be used like wraiths more often
range of fire of turrets might be good : )
scv reduced to 50 life
maybe increase the rate in which medic uses up energy. to have this run out slightly sooner .. but even then it might not even change a thing
is darkswarm too strong for you terrans? : )
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
