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It shouldn't be totally impossible to get blizzards attention about getting out a new series of patches to rebalance the game. I mean in the CS-community we whined about about it and put the people at valve against the wall after they'd been beating their chest claiming to have beeen listening to the community, and we urged them to tweak the game, and make some changes we've been wanting for a looong time.
PROTOSS)
DRAGOONS). Goons are WEAK. Not beacause of damage or range or hitpoints. Changing those won't mean much. They are weak because of their DEALYED FIRING. Why? Because in practical use in a fight they waste many shots against units that would be killed by a much smaller amount of shots being fired. With terran and zerg we have ranged units like hydras tanks or goliaths that all have direct fire, and thus there are a very low amount of shots being needlessly fired. If a unit does 25% more damage it doesn't mean much if 25% of the shots are wasted even if you try to babysit them during the fight and get as many hits as possible.
Range upgrade is very expensive considering it's an absolute must for this unit. It's almost useless without the extra range since it's so slow and have the delayd fire. Remember all those times the enemy units simply ran by all your goons without them hardly getting a shot off?
A.I. Goons are big and slow and they always get into trouble no matter how hard you try to micro or force-move them.
So what to do? Improve A.I. and make goons fire delay less (or even make an instant firecheck to reduce misfire, though that may be near impossible to implement.) By reducing the firedelay I do not mean cooldown, but simply the time to get the shot off when an enemy is spotted.
ROBOTICS) Isn't this one too expensive and builds too long? Sure lowering the cost and bildtime may further imbalance island but then again.. who cares about island games. It's needed in PvZ since psistorm doesn't kill lurkers in one blast (and it shouldn't IMO).
REAVERS)Well.. a great unit versus zerg but crap versus terran. However it is best against PROTOSS!?!? (battlecruiser anyone?)
Misfire is way to common with reavers. The A.I. for scarab is much to flawed. For the huge amount of recources you need to put in to get a reaver/shuttle/scarabs it shouldn't come down to nothing just because the A.I cannot fire correctly.
SCOUTS) Way to expensive compared to mutalisk and wraith. They lowered the price for wraiths a lot while hardly touching the scout cost. Either lower the cost or increase it's efficiency. However for the supply cost of three it sure is crap. I don't think scoutcraft would return nowadays even if cooldown versus ground was lowered.
SHUTTLE) Very expensive in terms of mineral plus it builds very slowly plus it moves extremely slow. Sure it's fast with upgrade but that takes an extra 350/400 plus a few minutes. On top of that just the robotics takes a long time to warp in. The reason for this is because once upon a time reverdrops we're too powerful. Nowadays reaverdrops are a joke and you need luck besides skills to pull one off. Lowering the cost for the speed upgrade is almost a must, however it would further unbalance the PvZ island map game. But on the other hand, I think we can just forget about island maps...  As it is now, instead of having the best dropships (fastest), protoss have the worst, since normally it wouldn't be worth all the time and resources to upgrade.
ZEALOT) Switching shield for normal hitpoints was a GOOD thing. It takes more damage from siegetanks and hydralisks, and the 1 armor also helps for those 20 difference. No need to change. Speed upgrade is a must for zealots, however lowering the cost would help protoss in PvZ. Don't know if 100/100 is too cheap though.
HIGH TEMPLAR) Cost is good. Psi-storm is good. Being able to kill lurkers with only one storm is perhaps too good. The imbalance with lurkers instead lie with the expesive and absolutely necessary goon range upgrade and expensive robotics factory, Since with protoss robotics or templar archives is very much an either-or choice in the beginning of the game. One thing though.. perhaps high templars should move somewhat faster, they are way to often left behind/arriving to late in battles. Still not as fast as regular units though since zerg need to have a chance to pick them off before they can do too much damage.
TERRAN)
SCV) Lots and lots and lots of hitpoints on this one. Sure it can't regenerate. BUT WHEN THE HELL HAS REGENRATION HELPED PROBES OR DRONES IN A FIGHT? Peon harassment sure, but that has mostly been favoring terrans anyways. Plus the fact that with the extra hitpoints marine/SCV rushes are extremely useful or when bunker-cheese-rusning a zerg. Lowering the hitpoints may be considered here. Also since because reaverdrops would be more useful. As it is now there is no protoss units capable of taking out SCVs at an expansion when the terran are withdraing his workers. Zealots dont hit, goons misfire and are too slow, reavers misfire, archons don't really appear that much in TvP and range is too low, carriers misfire too much. I don't know how many games I've seen when Almost ALL workers survive PLUS the command center when a protoss attacks an undefended expansion of a terran. Probes on the other hand die like crazy against pretty much any unit in the game . 50 hitpoints is enough methinks.
VULTURES) Dirt cheap and very powerful correctly used. Not sure they are to expensive since they die like crazy anyways. It is a unit designed for kamikaze missions anyway. Maybe it could be tweaked.
TANKS) Gee.. this is the big one that makes or breaks the game or certain maps. Whether a map is balanced or unbalanced depends on how much cheese or power you can get out of these sons of satan . Too many Cliffs or positions where terran only can attack or defend expansions unbalances the game. On open ground the unit isn't really unbalanced as it is now methinks. It's range NEED to be longer than reavers at least, and damage needs to be high as well since it will only get one shot off against a fast melee unit.
MEDIC) The neverdying marines are REALLY PESKY. Perhaps increase the amount of energy it takes to heal units, or slow the healing rate somewhat. I may be wrong about this one though, but a dropship with medarines are VERY hard to stop for a zerg. But on the other hand a zerg has an easier time expanding in most TvZ games. Open for tweaking.
DROPSHIP) So from having one of the crappier dropships in the game they suddenly got the best. It's very fast without having to upgrade plus it can carry more firepower than protoss or zerg ones. (Unless you consider shuttle/reaver but that's a combination with marginal use today on maps such as LT.) But I don't really think this unit is imbalanced.
GOLIATHS) From being a fairly crappy support unit this one has become a gamebreaker on island maps. But as I said above one shouldn't really take island maps into account when balancing the game since new units would need to be made most likely to balance the game. As it is now it's even good enough on it's own in large gruops without lots of tanks. Not really sure if it needs to be tweaked. A question though; is the Goliath ground range as long as upgraded goon or on lower?
TURRET) Perhaps it is too cheap. Either increase the cost to 100 or for the love of good reduce the rate of fire. These things spit missiles way to fast methinks. Since it's an Ground/Air ONLY it will destroy any single dropship anyways. My suggestion is to keep cost at 75, but in turn reduce the rate of fire. It is way too powerful against observers/Dropships as it is now. For those of you who say it's still needed against mutas? Nope. There are many other options for a terran to deal with them, reducing ROF wouldn't imbalance TvZ.
GENERAL) Like someone said some upgrades are simply ridiculous when compared to others. There much tweaking could be done. About damage upgrade for instance. As it is now you have to sacrifice resources (ie units or tech) early on to get a slight bonus later on. That seems fine, although how much time or money needed could perhaps be tweaked. The same goes for all other upgrades.
ZERG)
Hrm.. not really sure what to say about these. Spawn broodling is certainly too expensive compared to irradiate.
Lings are fine, Hydras are fine, mutas are fine. You can't really touch these units too much without having to reamake the game.
ULTRALISKS) Maybe they are too cheap in terms of supply.
CRACKLINGS) Ridiculously powerful when tearing down buildings. 6 lings destroy a base as fast as 12 zealots almost. But on the other hand they die like crazy against splashdamage units so...
SUNKEN) Are these too good?
I'm getting tired now.. so I'll post this as it is now. As you can see above there are some units I consider to be untouchables which the game revolves around, and others that needs to be tweaked to fit them and balance the matchups. My suggestions will powerup protoss slightly, downgrade terran slightly and pretty much keep zerg intact. Although the approach I suggest doesn't really mean making the units more powerful, but instead making them more useful in the different matchups.
It isn't impossible to get the designers attention. We simply need to make them understand that they do not understand the game as well as the professionals or the gaming community. They need to get rid of the "It's our game and we do what we want" attitude. That's simply bullshit price and it doesn't help them sell any games, since the quality of the games will be lower. Only post SERIOUS suggestions here, and debate points: pros and cons. If we manage to reach some sort of conclusion we can then perhaps go further and spread the word and get blizzard to start a new series of balance patches perhaps. What do you think?
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United States33362 Posts
totally unpossible!
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U think wax?  Oh well, however all these changes are fairly minor I consider here, so I don't see any gamebreakers right away. It would further mean that mapcreators would have greater freedom in creation since they wouldn't have to think of game-balance in terms of maps as much as in terms of races. I for one think BW is ready for another series of tweaking to breathe som new life into the game!
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if all u posted here was done protoss would kick all other races ass
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too many upgrades for toss and not enough for other races
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Tell me why? Because I certainly don't see MANY upgrades for protoss. I mean a 50 cheaper robotics or a few seconds faster or 125/125 goon range are hardly gamebreakers. You open your mouth without thinking. It isn't about how MANY changes it is about what is means in practical terms. Those changes I suggested don't MEAN A SHIT compared to all the changes that was made from 1.07 to 1.08.
Seriously people need to learn how to think things through before opening their mouths.
For instance most of the PvZ imbalance lies not with how good the units are but simply because of zerg mobility. Protoss must keep a strong center amry which is slow, while zerg can run about freely tearing buildings apart if the toss army is away.
PvT imbalance lies with the fact that the siegetanks outranges the protoss units. It's not really about how powerful it is. Most of the imbalance simply lies with the options the terran has because of this.
Geez. Plz think before answering. Serisously. Read through the changelog from 1.07 to 1.08 and compare it to the VERY FEW suggestions I made here. THEN TELL ME TOO MANY CHANGES ARE BEING MADE! Wait.. you probable still would but you would still be very wrong... Oh well.
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Norway28662 Posts
you forgot the one change I want to see the most : O
maelstorm increased duration or 75 energy cost~
I think the game is good as it is, or else I wouldn't be randoming.
terran happens to be the race I lose the most with anyway.
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very good suggestions. i can tell you've put a lot of thought into the game but i disagree with some of your ideas
first of all the whole goon thing if it is possible to correct that mis fire when you re attack that would be great.
i will touch quickly on a few units and all the matchups
pvz - scouts like you said need to be changed so retarded as they are
shuttle research of speed could be lowered that would make protoss a little more mobile. and it would be good for non-island maps
ok pvz the only reason protoss has a disadvantage is early game. otherwise it's completey balanced. therefore i would make 0 changes to units i would edit the time/cost of buildings .. this is the only way it may be corrected
a few examples would be maybe make storm a bit cheaper to research or temp archive less gas.. perhaps even increase the mineral lower the gas.
pvz island.... the real imbalance here is sair. they eat up muta and scourge too fast. the only way to fix it would be to change sair somehow or make dev cheaper to get. (too bad zerg can't build sunken before the hatch that would fix it  )... perhaps decrease the reavers splash damage. suggestoins please
terrans
scv .. yea.. reduce life to 50.. maybe.. but then again that makes all the terran scv strategys weaker.. then again they might be too strong when you have too many scv..
the rest of the units are absolutely fine. all your thinking about is how strong units are in the game and making them all weaker. your not thinking so much of balance. turrets dont bother zerg and it doesnt really make much of a difference in tvp except carriers which are NEEDED
vultures might be changed to 90 life? iuno what you guys think of that 1 more hit per unit cause they get eatin up so fast as it is in big battles
tanks. perhaps increase the speed in which they move. i wouldnt even consider changing anything else
but i think the best way to understand is to ask some protoss and terran players. im not so i'll leave that to them
changed medic energy? hell no rine/medic are fine golaiths are fine
.. i want to hear all your thoughts on this matchup from the gosu t and p players
zerg ahh my race
lets see add 100+ weapon/armor per upgrade
broodling 1 energy per brood
add 5000 life to infested terran
give mutas the ability to hit 10 units at a time : )
i dont want to think of anything you might change with zerg
but lets see. broodling 125 energy might be ok. no less
this would allow for you to be able to broodling twice perhaps 130 energy would be perfect
like i said make dev (50/50 cost) or (50/25) or (25/50) or (75/25) perhaps to combat the sair. or do something to fix scourges but i can't think of what without messing up too many other things.
sunkens are fine. if they were made weaker it would make zerg too weak
in too many situations.
rine and tank eat up hydra so fast. but then again lurker eat up rine very fast as well. and i cant think of editing these without messing up zvp too much.
dark swarm decreased to 30 seconds ? maybe? is it too strong?
not much else i can say except that this game is already balanced so well. with making 1 change to 1 unit can have an effect in so many other places.
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Finland4552 Posts
Actually it is common knowledge that the game itself is balanced, and the map is all that influence the real balance.
This game will be as balance with small changes because the key to balance is the counterability.
Big issues have been fixed few patches ago.
After the disaster of 1.10, noone even dare to ask for a new patch :D
We have a game we can live with.
Lets be happy! 
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Norway28662 Posts
what people need to remember about the queen is that it only costs 100/100. that makes it (apart from ghosts and medics) the least expensive spellcaster in the game (as gas is generally more valuable than minerals)
in addition it flies at high speed. thus you can't expect the spells to be THAT great, although ensnare definitely is.
: O
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omg you are realy stupid you think all terran units should nerf and all toss units should upf lol thats crazy
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Some of the reasoning you have here is flawed. I may not be correct about everything BUT:
If changes were made to the game so that carriers only had an attack damage of 4 and robotics cost 250/250 the TvP matchup wouldn't really be that different. The changes looks so drastic on paper but the don't mean as much in reality. Why carriers win many battles for protoss is because the terran isn't ready to counter them and their range is too great for a terran to get them with goliats if they are backup by goons and templars. And a protoss only builds ONE robotics in most TvP games.
On paper it looks that the protoss would simply lose all games, but it only makes is slightly harder for the protoss. No real change is being made to how the matchup is being played. A drastic example I know, but my point is still correct.
The game would be balanced even if goons had less hitpoints. It's about timing. Having the right units at the right place many times etc. However, what I'm suggesting here is that some races shouldn't have to play in an uphill struggle for a long period of the game. Do you understand what I mean now about balance?
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Finland4552 Posts
"ROBOTICS) Isn't this one too expensive and builds too long? Sure lowering the cost and bildtime may further imbalance island but then again.. who cares about island games."
This one deserve 
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hehehe, some funny shit -.-v
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The gamewinning concept for PvZ for protoss is usually about hitting with psistorm and make sure most of the units survive. It doesn't really matter much damage some units do since most of the damage is dealt by a few select units in most cases.
You focus too much about the numbers.. the number tweaking is simply to change the timing in the game and make certain sitiuations easier to survive or counter.
Even if a siegetank only did 50 damage a cliffdrop is still a cliffdrop and a protoss cannot defend against it from below. They need to counter-drop the cliff. The siegetank would still be able to kill the probes in peace and quiet and finally the nexus, only it would take a little longer.
All races can certainly win all matchups with a well executed strategy that strikes at the right time. What I suggest is simply to make some strategies easier to counter, and make sure more maps are playable.
About goons? What would make them too powerful? the fact that the first shot would come a split second faster? (it would ONLY affect the first shot.) And terran units still have instant fire so they still fire first. About the A.I thing about firing I don't think it's possible, and that would also mean all other races and units and not goons in particular. But disregard that, since it's probably not even feasible. So the only difference would be that now goons have the option of moving and waiting a slightly shorter time before firing. Would that imbalance the game? Would being able to counter properly the unit it WAS SUPPOSED TO COUNTER imbalance the game? hell no. As it is now vultures has too easy a time in surrounding and mining goons methinks. There are still tanks available for terran and they chew goons like nothing.
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As i say, play fastest and you will notice how powerful protoss are+_+;
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I think it can be pretty universally agreed that the robo tech tree of protoss is a bit imbalanced; shit takes too long to build and too much gas for the payoff, and shuttles bite dick.
maelstrom would be great if it lasted more than .00005 seconds, and / or cost less.
as for "fixing" goons.. the fix here is not specific to goons. it applys to gols, vults, goons, and reavers... all being completely incapable of navigating a map w/o constant babysitting, and units like reavers and goons can't be left to fight by themselves ever.
one of the things that i find somewhat imbalanced are vultures/scvs insane ability to block units with insane efficiency. most noticeable in tvp, where vults can really force toss units to eat mines and tank fire just by getting in the way then moving out, then moving back in the way, etc. scvs can do this but not with the same annoyance level as vults. i'm not sure if it's instentional but 5-6 vults facing the same direction standing end to end can block a LOT of shit.. plus they chew up all melee units in the game and have mines. i think that 100 cost for vults would not be out of line =\
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I think you're all a bunch of whining pussies (:
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ok been thinking about this from the thought you said and i and here are the following changes i might make
130 energy broodling
speed up temp slightly
change the min/gas of some researches and buildings for protoss(pvz balance) this would have to be carefully done over much consideration that's why im not going to post any ideas atm
change dev to (50/50 cost) or (50/25) or (25/50) or (75/25)
make scouts cheaper ! and maybe make them weaker as well : ) this would allow for scouts to be used like wraiths more often
range of fire of turrets might be good : )
scv reduced to 50 life
maybe increase the rate in which medic uses up energy. to have this run out slightly sooner .. but even then it might not even change a thing
is darkswarm too strong for you terrans? : )
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robotics 150/150? 200/100? or somewhat shorter build time. But okay.. skip buildtime then.
Fix misfire for reavers. I consider this a bug, not a feature in the game. A succesful drop against an undefended opponent should yield SOMETHING.
Goons. Okay keep cost and time. But definately increase the time until they get the first shot off. they stand about doing noting for about a second as it is now.
turret. Lower cooldown. They still kill shuttles like crazy, the same with any other airunit. Against mutas they are more of a nuisance and to keep the mutas from parking over the mineralline until the marines get there to chase them away. No imbalance in zerg game, but the seem to powerful in PvT IMO.
Spawn broodling someone mentioned 125 energy. I'm not experienced enough with zerg so I can't really say, but I guess that's a good figure. 100 would probably be too low.
DA I forgot about simply because they are too crappy to appear in most games as it is now. Maelstrom tweaking would change that.
Tanks and vultures stay the same. I never said anything else, rather the opposite. However increasing the power of vultures is a nono. Both are fine.
SCV less hitpoints. 50 is fine.
Scout slightly better.
Someone mention Corsairs being too good. Can they be tweaked down without nerfing them completely?
Medic healing, ok it stays then. perhaps it would take more energy only instead? The neverdying marine would be countered to some extent with this.
One thing about many lategame units. Remember that it doesn't really matter how much many of these cost, since often you have more than enough money. Then it's usually about how effectively you use the units instead or simply how good they are.
THANK YOU for all your input BTW, I have backed off a bit on some points but some I still believe are in need of a bit of tweaking.
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What do you mean fastest? Is it like a BGH game type? Since when was the game supposed to be balanced for those types?
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On February 18 2004 06:21 Luhh wrote:
What do you mean fastest? Is it like a BGH game type? Since when was the game supposed to be balanced for those types?
LOL just giving an example on how a map can change balances in the game
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read my posts luhh sair nerfing would fuck up way to much. dev nerfing wont
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I wouldnt make toss stronger.
I wouldnt make terran stronger.
I wouldnt make Zerg stronger.
I wouldnt make them weaker.
What about Random ?
=[
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Yes... I'm very aware of that thank you FreeZEtrnal. I'm sure everyone here knows that. A game where everyony spawned with commandcenter/nexus/hatchery in vicinity of each other would also play VERY differently. Wouldn't you think FreeZEternal? WHAT THE **** WAS YOUR POINT!?
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On February 18 2004 06:14 ObsoleteLogic wrote:
I think you're all a bunch of whining pussies (:
True that!
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range of fire of turret considered.. cooldown NO! dont change
add maybe maelstrom energy .. perhaps the starting energy could be 125 or 150
that way you would almost have 2 maelstrom right away.. but changing it to 75 might effect it too much but then again 200/200 is a lot to spend on a dark archon :D but then again maelstrom with storm is SO STRONG i remember having all my scourges maelstrom and i lost so much gas.. trying to kill the carrier.. probably cost me the game but then again changing dev build cost might help : )
and that whole reaver/goon misfire thing. yea. if they can fix that that would be great. i dont think anyone is gonna frown down upon the idea considering you dont expect people to time out when to press the attack button so it doesnt mis fire
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On February 18 2004 06:28 Luhh wrote:
Yes... I'm very aware of that thank you FreeZEtrnal. I'm sure everyone here knows that. A game where everyony spawned with commandcenter/nexus/hatchery in vicinity of each other would also play VERY differently. Wouldn't you think FreeZEternal? WHAT THE **** WAS YOUR POINT!?
FuN GaMe kekekke
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Zvz with a much cheaper devourer will be so funny and different. It will change the mu completely. Maybe rushing to hive will show us some defilers too and cracklings would be much better.
But still i think its very difficult to persuade blizzard to make a patch.
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The main problem I see is that:
T=P T>Z T=T
Z>P Z<T Z=Z
P<Z P=T P=P
This is a very rough approximation, but since Terran doesnt have a bad matchup, they are clearly the best race.
Most people would agree that if 2 matchups were unbalanced it would be PvZ and ZvT.
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Australia4514 Posts
personally i think double the range for goons is a viable option.
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crazedzergling talk about in game scenerios .. it's kinda dumb(no offence) to just say a toss is better than another. it's certain elements in the game that make the match up unbalanced not the races themselves
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hahahaha double the range.. lurkers wouldnt even be able to hit goons i think zerglings should have range too then : )
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On February 18 2004 06:28 Luhh wrote:
Yes... I'm very aware of that thank you FreeZEtrnal. I'm sure everyone here knows that. A game where everyony spawned with commandcenter/nexus/hatchery in vicinity of each other would also play VERY differently. Wouldn't you think FreeZEternal? WHAT THE **** WAS YOUR POINT!?
Are you mad?
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Hehe Leg, Why don't we make a siegemode for goons when we're at it? like it goes down like bambi legs out in all directions and it's range is doubled, and it's attack is hurling infested terrans :D
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About different matchups and so on, I saw a really cool matchup with Reach palying someone in what looked like an exhibition game. They had two workers of their main race and one each of the other when they spawned. BALANCE THAT! :D
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robo bay 150/150
observeratory 50/50
temp archive 150/100
this will give 200 gas slightly quicker to switch tech and hopefully still balance pvp dt vs ob build time... bah thoughts on this guys? just a first approximation of what might work
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ZvT is imbalanced because marines and medics can be microed with tanks near perfectly and no amount of lurker/ling/hydra can take them out. Its as if M&M + tank were meant to be an invincible combo or something...
PvZ is imbalanced because P has a hard time adjusting to Zerg rapidly changing techs, and has trouble scouting in the early to mid game.
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ok this is way to hard to figure out if you decrease robo bay and temp it'll mess up tvp because dt drops will be so much faster
if you change just 1 pvp dt vs obs timing might be messed up
im going crazy thinking about this
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wow just wanna make a statement think about 2on2 reavers would own...
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On February 18 2004 06:49 Luhh wrote:
About different matchups and so on, I saw a really cool matchup with Reach palying someone in what looked like an exhibition game. They had two workers of their main race and one each of the other when they spawned. BALANCE THAT! :D
Yeah I saw that too! It was cool. A new starcraft league should be started, The trirace league or something. Its like Random except 10 times as cool.
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crazed zergling zvt is fine m+m with tank is anything but an unstopable combo .. you just arnt playing zerg right :D
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Is not unstoppable, just a lot harder to stop than most anything else with comparable resources. When microed at pro level its near invincible. I dont think you understand that since you arent a zerg player.
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Norway10161 Posts
I have very few suggestions, only this
- make bunkers take longer to build
- scv hp down to 40
- Dev's somehow able to fight corsairs. Maybe do something to the sairs.
AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IM TIRED OF BABYSITTING MY DRONES!!! Fix their AI
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LOL crazedzerg i am a zerg player and i understand the matchup perfectly. what you dont understand is how to get the advantage so hydra/ling lurk rape therw anything terran come up with..
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storm decreased to 150/100
observatory changed to 100/50
this wont mess around with the whole reaver or dt thing and you'll have more gas if you decide to go storm and ob and see lurk..
bah some really gosu protoss wanna help me out here.. i dont understand the other protoss matchups good enough to balance it .. all i can put in is a pvz point of view maybe you can help leg
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
One thing I would say about sunks is that when the colony is morphing into a sunk, give it plus 2 armor. This would help vs early game zvt. Sometimes having a sunk with 400 health and without 2 armor is more beneficial for zerg. I think terran containment is more effective now because tanks take a few less shots to destroy the sunks. OR make bunkers longer to build. Or make medics less strong so that zerg doesnt HAVE to go lurks EVERY game. Taking more mana to heal is an idea.
I would say decrease the efficiency of sairs. Going reav/sair is not the only way to win PvZ islands. Maybe even decrease 1 point of damage for sairs. Then decrease the cost of robotics facility and templar archives to balance it out. I dunno about this one though. This matchup is already very delicate, however I dont see the protoss in proleagues getting owned by zerg anymore like they used to. Protoss is making quite a comeback. Increasing effectiveness of dark archons is a possibility.
I dont think we should change too much ZvT late game. This is already too delicate. I think irradiate is still too good of a spell. And I think if queens had free broodling that would be just devestating to terran. Don't even need to make lurks, just hydra/queen.
Darkswarm is a very powerful tool against terran. However it is also very hard to use. Yellow keeps himself alive because his micro is so incredible. Defilers are very hard to use, you end up spending too much time microing with defilers that you neglect macro. However we shouldnt change lategame too much, midgame is what decides the winner ZvT, and I think midgame zvt is even.
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hmmm...I just want goon build time to be what it used to be..
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Okay.. decreasing psistorm research cost seem like a good option to counter muta/ling > lurker containment without the need to change robotics cost too much.
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wtf u r saying that terran must be weaker and toss and zerg more power lol ;/ sc is pretty balanced ;/
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Hmmmm, I think it would be nice to first categorize units/costs/speed/... into categories like Perfect already/maybe too strong/maybe too weak/too strong/definitely completely broken/too strong.
The only thing that is definitely completely broken at this point is scouts. Also the zerg island game seems to qualify into that category, but there's no simple solution to that as I can see it, as everything else would give groundzerg some large advantage ...
Maelstrom too mana-intense would be too weak category whereas fast robofax is a maybe as I'd see it.
Bottom line. Scrap everything that most people think to be a maybe and only do the completely broken/clearly broken adjustments. The scout is the only completely broken unit I could think of btw, everything else depends pretty much on the map.
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Hmmm..goons to be medium size instead of large +_+;;
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No Yarertz. I'm not saying that protoss needs to get stronger really. I think they should fix a few issues with protoss like reaver misfire, goon first shot. As it is now goons are so silly to micro. The change with pvt is mostly about the reaver, the other changes concern pvz more.
So what if psistorm is cheaper? since when has psistorm been a good weapon to kill a mech terran? Oh and cheaper robotics, that's only slightly perhaps and protoss only builds ONE in the game anyways.
Turret ROF decreased, yes that one would make things easier for protoss, but they would still lose their shuttles. Not a big change.
Terran medarine need to be downgraded.. YES. I believe it does.
FreeZEternal. It seems like you throw out ideas without thinking what they would mean in practical terms first :D. About goons being medium sized.. do you mean for transport or do you want them to only take 75% damage against hydras/tanks? Either way the change may be too good.
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except on islands if you gave reavers less splash damage.. that would allow zerg to be able to handle reaver more easily ...or the dev change that might add some new and interesting concepts to the game... like you could stop carrier/sair with less gas .. or if it cost less mineral to make a dev you could have more hydra to combat reaver.. im just not certain how large amounts of dev might be exploited.. i dont think large amounts of dev matter much too much but i could be wrong
if goons were medium size tanks would have a harder time against them.. then again vult would be able to attack them better... but sunk wouldnt last as well against them... lol that would be some major change... it would have to be tested a great deal ; ) it could really really mess up the game bad
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Luhh if Turret ROF would be decreased then it would be really hard to protect islands in tvp or tvt.
medarine need to be downgraded? no way no way... if yes i will stop playing bw ;/
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why mess with a good thing?
any imbalances aren't major enough to merit risking completely fucking the game up.
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On February 18 2004 08:04 Yarertz wrote:
Luhh if Turret ROF would be decreased then it would be really hard to protect islands in tvp or tvt.
medarine need to be downgraded? no way no way... if yes i will stop playing bw ;/
I think many Zerg players have said they will stop playing if pool cost went up (it did) and larvae were made slower (they were).
What makes you think that Terrans should enjoy their obvious advantages and shouldnt be tweaked but the Zerg players befroe are right to be nerfed?
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i got feeling
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On February 18 2004 08:44 Yarertz wrote: i got feeling
I got a feeling that Medics should cost 100 min and 50 gas, but that doesnt mean that it would be a good idea.
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mmmmm I think like that the game could be balanced
improve muta size from small to medium (that one would really balance pvz) then goons would be better against them but same against m&m's
reduce slightly air damage of gols (they would not be too powerfull against muta)
maybe slightly improve tank siege/unsiege time
that's all
sorry for my english cya
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NONONO increasing to medium size would be CRAZY !! ! ! you have no idea how many things that changes and so many times when zerg need mutas .... HELL NO nonono !NO NO NO
k that would effect muta vs turret muta vs goliath muta vs goon muta vs cannon muta vs sair muta vs valk...
think again :D
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mmm cannon and sair do normal dammage and turret to i though but here i am not sure for valk I simply don't know but the fire look like explosiv
mmm i think we still can think about it
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You are talking in one way ZvP TvZ etc. but u dont think that i change means sth in all MU and u cannot say "lets XXX unit do ZZZ more dmg to YYY and change size from HHHH to JJJJ" that sux u must think on 3 dimensions ....
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siege range for tanks could be increased so that a tank can hold of those dirty lings before they reach it
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btw. wtf everbody is saying that terran owns all ... look at wgt ladder from season 6... 2+ terrans in top15? how many zergs? lol
and stop saying that "on pro-level micro.... sth" fuck this u will "never" reach pro-level micro/macro etc.
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yea exactly like on my level i think that zerg is better.. but those few pro gamer terrans who might have an advantage over zerg.... what 3 terrans? .. lol sure make terran weaker ill just own with zerg more at my level : ) and MisterKatosS it will effect the game against all those things except photon cannon.. mutas are expensive as it is. 100/100 each where as protoss goon cost half as much gas and still are stronger than mutas 1:1 not to mention all the other things it will effect.... no that would be an extremely BAD idea it would mess up the entire zerg game
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The game is fine, just shorten the research time for psi storm and everything would be balanced!
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United States12235 Posts
I skimmed through many of the changes so I'm not going to comment on those, but you should know that there is perhaps only one guy left at Blizzard who still cares about Starcraft =) Balance changes are not going to happen no matter how badly wanted.
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yeah ZvP on islands just need to be patient. Many people complain about ZvP being bad for Z but I think it isnt that bad, even though Im a Z player myself. They are used to dominating the Protoss with aggression and Containment on land maps and dont know how to play defense past the early game. They dont know how to use devourers all that well either. If zerg can just guard against corsairs and not be too anxious they can take an expo and sit on that until Dev+Muta+Scourge+Guard combo. Ive seen Hot work it very well against Giyom. Zerg just needs to think differently in a strategic sense on islands than they do on land.
It would probably be better though if devourers were 125/50, or available at Lair with a small Aspect upgrade to the normal lair, like 50/100. That would give the Zerg player a fair midgame on Islands.
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thing is sair in the right numbers rape threw everything until you get dev.. unless you tech right to dev and sunk / spore up lol i might start doing that T_t and you cant guard your expands very well either until your hatch is complete and sunken up
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build times (bw 1.10)
7: scarab
20: peons, colonies, archons, interceptor
24: marine, firebat
28: zergling, hydralisk
30: pylon, battery, bunker, turret, vulture, medic, scourge, observatory,
robotics support bay
40: farms (except pylon), zealot, geyser buildings, evo. chamber, forge,
addons (except nuclear silo), hydralisk den, lurker, infested terran,
mutalisk forms, corsair, goliath, nydus canal, observer
50: photon cannon, dragoon, siege tank, templars, queen, dropship, valkyrie,
defiler, ghost
60: gateway, e.bay, cyber. core, citadel, queen nest, t. archives, shuttle,
wraith, defiler mound, ultralisk, fleet beacon, arbiter tribunal,
science facility
70: stargate, reaver, starport
80: burrow, spawning pool, barracks, academy, stim pack, restoration,
robotics facility, factory, scout, spider mines, siege mode, armory,
spawn broodling, ensnare, disruption web, science vessel, irradiate,
nuclear silo, personnel cloaking, ultralisk cavern, hallucination
100: metabolic boost, lair, muscular augments, grooved spines, u-238 shells,
maelstrom, ion thrusters, cloaking field (wraith), adrenal glands, plague,
carrier capacity, stasis, lockdown, nuclear missile
120: halls, optical flare, lurker aspect, spires, psionic storm, mind control,
feedback, hive, emp shockwave, yamato cannon, recall
133: antennae (overlord sight), pneumatized carapace (overlord speed),
zealot upgrade, goliath upgrade, observer upgrades, ultralisk upgrades
140: carrier
160: arbiter, ventral sacs (overlord transport)
166: singularity charge (dragoon range), robotics upgrades, energy upgrades,
ocular implants (ghost sight), scout upgrades
266: level 1 upgrades
298: level 2 upgrades
330: level 3 upgrades
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yeah but the sairs can only be at one place at one time. If you split them um then they arent concentrated enough to kill off scourge and harder to control. All zerg has to do is sneak some hydras across in overlords and Protoss is in big trouble if theyve been building a bunch of corsairs.
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haha thanks fish *copy paste* : ) .. and crazedzergling tell me where you are and what server your on and show me how it's done.. i'll play protoss my worst race
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United States12235 Posts
On February 18 2004 11:44 stimey d okgm fish wrote:
build times (bw 1.10)
7: scarab
20: peons, colonies, archons, interceptor
24: marine, firebat
28: zergling, hydralisk
30: pylon, battery, bunker, turret, vulture, medic, scourge, observatory,
robotics support bay
40: farms (except pylon), zealot, geyser buildings, evo. chamber, forge,
addons (except nuclear silo), hydralisk den, lurker, infested terran,
mutalisk forms, corsair, goliath, nydus canal, observer
50: photon cannon, dragoon, siege tank, templars, queen, dropship, valkyrie,
defiler, ghost
60: gateway, e.bay, cyber. core, citadel, queen nest, t. archives, shuttle,
wraith, defiler mound, ultralisk, fleet beacon, arbiter tribunal,
science facility
70: stargate, reaver, starport
80: burrow, spawning pool, barracks, academy, stim pack, restoration,
robotics facility, factory, scout, spider mines, siege mode, armory,
spawn broodling, ensnare, disruption web, science vessel, irradiate,
nuclear silo, personnel cloaking, ultralisk cavern, hallucination
100: metabolic boost, lair, muscular augments, grooved spines, u-238 shells,
maelstrom, ion thrusters, cloaking field (wraith), adrenal glands, plague,
carrier capacity, stasis, lockdown, nuclear missile
120: halls, optical flare, lurker aspect, spires, psionic storm, mind control,
feedback, hive, emp shockwave, yamato cannon, recall
133: antennae (overlord sight), pneumatized carapace (overlord speed),
zealot upgrade, goliath upgrade, observer upgrades, ultralisk upgrades
140: carrier
160: arbiter, ventral sacs (overlord transport)
166: singularity charge (dragoon range), robotics upgrades, energy upgrades,
ocular implants (ghost sight), scout upgrades
266: level 1 upgrades
298: level 2 upgrades
330: level 3 upgrades
Nice, but you missed Battlecruiser (133). You also don't have to research Feedback. What is "Halls" under 120?
Edit: I presume you meant Halls to be Hatchery =)
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yeah i forgot a few, unfortunately, still working that out. it's a lot to memorize. i used to have dark swarm in there, too. imo you can learn something about how much blizzard did (or didn't) balance when you see the build times of spells that no longer need to be researched
halls = hatchery, nexus, command center, i.e. town hall and great hall in war2 i.e. peons meaning peasants, scvs, drones, probes, and peons.
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I can't stand how people want to fundamentally change the game because they suck at certain matchups.
The only players in the world that make TvZ "imbalanced" are BoxeR/NaDa/ILoveoov/XellOs etc. Even then there are a lot of other factors to explain Terran players winning. Such as Zerg not taking advantage of all of their capabilities (need to use Queens/Drop/Hive Tech more).
All that really needs to be looked at is stuff that has been shown time and time again to be imbalanced, which is PvZ island and ZvP land.
Since Protoss players are getting better at killing Lurkers I don't think that's that big of a problem. The biggest problem is that Ultras are too damn strong. I say that Maelstorm should be made better in some way to counter Ultras (my opinion).
I don't know what to say about PvZ island, as I really don't know much about it other than that it's damn cool to watch.
Every other matchup is balanced just fine. The only other change that really needs to be made to the game is that all land units without exception need to have AI quality equivelent to the Hydralisk's.
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On February 18 2004 10:20 IcarusFalls wrote:
yea exactly like on my level i think that zerg is better.. but those few pro gamer terrans who might have an advantage over zerg.... what 3 terrans? .. lol sure make terran weaker ill just own with zerg more at my level : )
so fucking true
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and ReaPeR's post is so true too ...
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I think the game is just fine as it is. People just complaining cuz they can't beat a certain style or something and blame it on the game and thats where these topics appear. Talking about how "impossible" some mu is or something. Just accept the fact u arn't as good as u think u are and work through things
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United States12235 Posts
On February 18 2004 12:39 stimey d okgm fish wrote:
halls = hatchery, nexus, command center, i.e. town hall and great hall in war2 i.e. peons meaning peasants, scvs, drones, probes, and peons.
Ohhhhh yeah. I call them Town Hall Structures but I never made the logical leap to "Halls". Lost my head there for a second. Thanks =)
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Valhalla18444 Posts
My thoughts:
Scouts are powerful units. They have a ton of hp, do excellent air-to-air damage, fly godly fast with upgrade and can even see far. The problem with them is they take a long time to build, and they cost alot. I honestly think that if scouts were improved on, they would be too powerful. They aren't AMAZING right now, but they would be if they were improved.. Too amazing!
Corsairs are not too powerful.. Micro > corsairs.. Spread your units out! A corsair that does 3 damage to a mutalisk isn't scary if it can't splash! Plus muta armor rapes corsair damage. with 3 armor muta will take at max 1 damage. (5+3=8.. divide by 2 = 4.. 4-3=1). Corsairs are fine..
It is ALOT easier to get 2379462394 queens than it is to get 10 vessels. Queen spells are fairly energy-costing, yes, but queens themselves are cheap and the spells are useful. Instead of having 1 queen and waiting around for 150 energy every time.. have 6 queens! You can afford them..
Drone what if Devourer aspect was an upgrade like Lurker? Would allow Zerg to get them faster.. and would cost them a bit in exchange.
I think all the races in StarCraft are balanced. Map is really the only advantage
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United States12235 Posts
On February 18 2004 12:55 FakeSteve)307 wrote:
My thoughts:
Scouts are powerful units. They have a ton of hp, do excellent air-to-air damage, fly godly fast with upgrade and can even see far. The problem with them is they take a long time to build, and they cost alot. I honestly think that if scouts were improved on, they would be too powerful. They aren't AMAZING right now, but they would be if they were improved.. Too amazing!
They fly the same speed as Wraiths/sairs/mutas/scourge when upgraded, so not GODLY fast =) They also have crappy air-to-ground damage. I was watching a game where a friend went Scouts and 3 of them died trying to take out one Spore colony. =[
Corsairs are not too powerful.. Micro > corsairs.. Spread your units out! A corsair that does 3 damage to a mutalisk isn't scary if it can't splash! Plus muta armor rapes corsair damage. with 3 armor muta will take at max 1 damage. (5+3=8.. divide by 2 = 4.. 4-3=1). Corsairs are fine..
The thing is that they're fast, with great acceleration. When Zerg players micro their mutas to spread out and cut down on splash, the sairs just retreat a bit and the mutas clump up again. That splash range is enormous too.
It is ALOT easier to get 2379462394 queens than it is to get 10 vessels. Queen spells are fairly energy-costing, yes, but queens themselves are cheap and the spells are useful. Instead of having 1 queen and waiting around for 150 energy every time.. have 6 queens! You can afford them..
Queens are pretty bad because they require a lot of babysitting. One of the main downsides is their fast speed (sounds weird doesn't it?) That allows them to get separated easily. All the other spellcasters that are commonly used in the game travel on the ground with the rest of your army so they're easy to control. Of course the exception is Science Vessels, but you need Science Vessels for detection and their crucial TvZ spells so they become more of a necessity.
I think all the races in StarCraft are balanced. Map is really the only advantage
I agree, except island maps. I don't think there is a possible way to balance island maps. As for Protoss vs Zerg on land, Protoss players have been getting better at dealing with Zerg ground from what I've seen.
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Norway28662 Posts
just keep queens hotkeyed on 0 or something;)
thats what I do anyway
and 9 as well if I have more than 12
also steve im sorry but your calculations are off, because you remove armor before you calculate unit size and not the other way around. (thus its 5+3-3 / 2)
muta armor still rapes though, because sair splash damage doesn't increase as much as the main damage, thus when you get muta armor and he gets attack, your mutas start receiving way less splash damage, however the unit targeted will receive the same.
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On February 18 2004 12:46 x[ReaPeR]x wrote:
I can't stand how people want to fundamentally change the game because they suck at certain matchups.
...
The only other change that really needs to be made to the game is that all land units without exception need to have AI quality equivelent to the Hydralisk's.
For fuck's sake dude.
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man i cant be bothered reading 5 pages of this whining, but i will say a few things. turrets ARE SUPPOSED TO STOP AIR, so why cant they be allowed to take down a shuttle ^^?
DA should be more efective though... maelstrom upgraded plz.
the biggest problem is for zerg air. they need something that reliably takes down valks/sair... maybe making devo cost less (or cost more but available in lair tech?!?) thats the most imbalanced thing imo, sairs and valk armies walk all over zerg and even when u micro muta/scourge ur still gettin OWNED for cost, cuz especially sairs are cheap and evillll.
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u should balance the game for its best players, obviously. there will always be a race that's best for various sectors of inadequacy, u shouldnt worry about these or try to balance them. impossibel. look at wgtour, everyone plays zerg. so fucking what? imbalance? no, just leave it alone. let everyone play zerg if they want, as long as the ppl who actually kick ass dont have a problem with zerg, then let the zerg keep coming and let the best players keep beating them, etc. you get the point. make the game best for those who play it best, the rest will follow and fall into place regardless. maybe not. but it sounds right sorta. believe!
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I don't know if anyone have suggested this, but what if probes had more hitpoints? vs zerg it would have been sweet to see two probes harrasing zerg drones before they get lings/sunk.. and it would make the hararassing probe in the terran base even more irritating.. just a suggestion =]
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How about the Dragoons getting stuck thing? That's pretty bullshit. Fix that it makes dragoons even worse than they already are.
Toss need alot of work imo - Scouts, shields taking full dmg, their cost, dragoons being schizophrenics, and reavers being retards.
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So do we all agree now, that the zerg air problems on islands vs toss would be fixed, if devourer aspect would be an upgrade on normal spire level ? Smart idea btw to whoever brought this up first.
And to fakesteve:
Scouts are powerful units. They have a ton of hp, do excellent air-to-air damage, fly godly fast with upgrade and can even see far. The problem with them is they take a long time to build, and they cost alot. I honestly think that if scouts were improved on, they would be too powerful. They aren't AMAZING right now, but they would be if they were improved.. Too amazing!
I remember you being the guy that actually SCOUTS with scouts ;-), after having researched the sight upgrade of course *g*. I can tell you that ANY reasonable protoss will tell you that scouts suck as they are and are only for humiliating your opp -.- In which apect they are very good, just imagine getting owned by 2 hotkeys of scouts without feeling severly pissed ;-)
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I hotkey once 1,2,3 36 scouts +_+;;;It was pretty strong
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On February 19 2004 12:17 cjh wrote:
Yeah but how much did those 36 scouts cost?
And equal amount spent on Carriers would be so so so much better...
Yeah, but i was winning anywayz..
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On February 18 2004 12:55 FakeSteve)307 wrote:
Drone what if Devourer aspect was an upgrade like Lurker? Would allow Zerg to get them faster.. and would cost them a bit in exchange.
There is a devourer aspect. It's called the greater spire.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
one that doesn't need a hive... IE you make the spire -> Upgrade and bam you have devourers.
Don't have to wait for nest to finish.. then wait for hive to finish... then wait for greater spire to morph (Which takes eons)
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Hmm I thought armor was calculated after everything else. Oops!
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EPT
