mmmmm I think like that the game could be balanced
improve muta size from small to medium (that one would really balance pvz) then goons would be better against them but same against m&m's
reduce slightly air damage of gols (they would not be too powerfull against muta)
maybe slightly improve tank siege/unsiege time
that's all
sorry for my english cya

IcarusFalls

Canada94 Posts

February 18 2004 00:24 GMT

#62

NONONO increasing to medium size would be CRAZY !! ! ! you have no idea how many things that changes and so many times when zerg need mutas .... HELL NO nonono !NO NO NO

k that would effect muta vs turret muta vs goliath muta vs goon muta vs cannon muta vs sair muta vs valk...

think again :D

MisterKatosS

France352 Posts

February 18 2004 00:31 GMT

#63

mmm cannon and sair do normal dammage and turret to i though but here i am not sure for valk I simply don't know but the fire look like explosiv
mmm i think we still can think about it

Yarertz

Djibouti1891 Posts

February 18 2004 00:59 GMT

#64

You are talking in one way ZvP TvZ etc. but u dont think that i change means sth in all MU and u cannot say "lets XXX unit do ZZZ more dmg to YYY and change size from HHHH to JJJJ" that sux u must think on 3 dimensions ....

Konni

Germany3044 Posts

February 18 2004 00:59 GMT

#65

siege range for tanks could be increased so that a tank can hold of those dirty lings before they reach it

Yarertz

Djibouti1891 Posts

February 18 2004 01:00 GMT

#66

btw. wtf everbody is saying that terran owns all ... look at wgt ladder from season 6... 2+ terrans in top15? how many zergs? lol
and stop saying that "on pro-level micro.... sth" fuck this u will "never" reach pro-level micro/macro etc.

IcarusFalls

Canada94 Posts

February 18 2004 01:20 GMT

#67

yea exactly like on my level i think that zerg is better.. but those few pro gamer terrans who might have an advantage over zerg.... what 3 terrans? .. lol sure make terran weaker ill just own with zerg more at my level : ) and MisterKatosS it will effect the game against all those things except photon cannon.. mutas are expensive as it is. 100/100 each where as protoss goon cost half as much gas and still are stronger than mutas 1:1 not to mention all the other things it will effect.... no that would be an extremely BAD idea it would mess up the entire zerg game

DV8

United States1623 Posts

February 18 2004 01:21 GMT

#68

The game is fine, just shorten the research time for psi storm and everything would be balanced!

Excalibur_Z

United States12240 Posts

February 18 2004 01:23 GMT

#69

I skimmed through many of the changes so I'm not going to comment on those, but you should know that there is perhaps only one guy left at Blizzard who still cares about Starcraft =) Balance changes are not going to happen no matter how badly wanted.

Liquid`Drone

Norway28784 Posts

February 18 2004 01:30 GMT

#70

haha muta into medium would blow pretty hard. I mean how about pvz isle? sairs already beat mutas when they deal 50%, they'd rape them even more with 75%

tho, it would make reaver+goon really good in pvz. but probably too good.

also, the only way you could change devourers to balance pvz isle would be letting zerg get devourers faster. (because after you have devourers, zerg air starts to beat toss air costwise. ) like you could make it possible to morph a greater spire without a hive but with a queens nest, but that would make guardian rushes too strong. -.-
and if you say you'd need a hive for guardian but not devourer then well guardians would still appear at about the same time cause you could just start greater spire and hive morph at the same time.

:E

CrazedZergling .

United States13 Posts

February 18 2004 02:08 GMT

#71

yeah ZvP on islands just need to be patient. Many people complain about ZvP being bad for Z but I think it isnt that bad, even though Im a Z player myself. They are used to dominating the Protoss with aggression and Containment on land maps and dont know how to play defense past the early game. They dont know how to use devourers all that well either. If zerg can just guard against corsairs and not be too anxious they can take an expo and sit on that until Dev+Muta+Scourge+Guard combo. Ive seen Hot work it very well against Giyom. Zerg just needs to think differently in a strategic sense on islands than they do on land.

It would probably be better though if devourers were 125/50, or available at Lair with a small Aspect upgrade to the normal lair, like 50/100. That would give the Zerg player a fair midgame on Islands.

IcarusFalls

Canada94 Posts

February 18 2004 02:25 GMT

#72

thing is sair in the right numbers rape threw everything until you get dev.. unless you tech right to dev and sunk / spore up lol i might start doing that T_t and you cant guard your expands very well either until your hatch is complete and sunken up

STIMEY d okgm fish

Canada6140 Posts

February 18 2004 02:44 GMT

#73

build times (bw 1.10)

7: scarab

20: peons, colonies, archons, interceptor

24: marine, firebat

28: zergling, hydralisk

30: pylon, battery, bunker, turret, vulture, medic, scourge, observatory,
robotics support bay

40: farms (except pylon), zealot, geyser buildings, evo. chamber, forge,
addons (except nuclear silo), hydralisk den, lurker, infested terran,
mutalisk forms, corsair, goliath, nydus canal, observer

50: photon cannon, dragoon, siege tank, templars, queen, dropship, valkyrie,
defiler, ghost

60: gateway, e.bay, cyber. core, citadel, queen nest, t. archives, shuttle,
wraith, defiler mound, ultralisk, fleet beacon, arbiter tribunal,
science facility

70: stargate, reaver, starport

80: burrow, spawning pool, barracks, academy, stim pack, restoration,
robotics facility, factory, scout, spider mines, siege mode, armory,
spawn broodling, ensnare, disruption web, science vessel, irradiate,
nuclear silo, personnel cloaking, ultralisk cavern, hallucination

100: metabolic boost, lair, muscular augments, grooved spines, u-238 shells,
maelstrom, ion thrusters, cloaking field (wraith), adrenal glands, plague,
carrier capacity, stasis, lockdown, nuclear missile

120: halls, optical flare, lurker aspect, spires, psionic storm, mind control,
feedback, hive, emp shockwave, yamato cannon, recall

133: antennae (overlord sight), pneumatized carapace (overlord speed),
zealot upgrade, goliath upgrade, observer upgrades, ultralisk upgrades

140: carrier

160: arbiter, ventral sacs (overlord transport)

166: singularity charge (dragoon range), robotics upgrades, energy upgrades,
ocular implants (ghost sight), scout upgrades

266: level 1 upgrades

298: level 2 upgrades

330: level 3 upgrades

CrazedZergling .

United States13 Posts

February 18 2004 02:48 GMT

#74

yeah but the sairs can only be at one place at one time. If you split them um then they arent concentrated enough to kill off scourge and harder to control. All zerg has to do is sneak some hydras across in overlords and Protoss is in big trouble if theyve been building a bunch of corsairs.

IcarusFalls

Canada94 Posts

February 18 2004 03:04 GMT

#75

IcarusFalls

Canada94 Posts

February 18 2004 03:04 GMT

#76

haha thanks fish *copy paste* : ) .. and crazedzergling tell me where you are and what server your on and show me how it's done.. i'll play protoss my worst race

Excalibur_Z

United States12240 Posts

February 18 2004 03:33 GMT

#77

On February 18 2004 11:44 stimey d okgm fish wrote:
build times (bw 1.10)

7: scarab

20: peons, colonies, archons, interceptor

24: marine, firebat

28: zergling, hydralisk

30: pylon, battery, bunker, turret, vulture, medic, scourge, observatory,
robotics support bay

40: farms (except pylon), zealot, geyser buildings, evo. chamber, forge,
addons (except nuclear silo), hydralisk den, lurker, infested terran,
mutalisk forms, corsair, goliath, nydus canal, observer

50: photon cannon, dragoon, siege tank, templars, queen, dropship, valkyrie,
defiler, ghost

60: gateway, e.bay, cyber. core, citadel, queen nest, t. archives, shuttle,
wraith, defiler mound, ultralisk, fleet beacon, arbiter tribunal,
science facility

70: stargate, reaver, starport

80: burrow, spawning pool, barracks, academy, stim pack, restoration,
robotics facility, factory, scout, spider mines, siege mode, armory,
spawn broodling, ensnare, disruption web, science vessel, irradiate,
nuclear silo, personnel cloaking, ultralisk cavern, hallucination

100: metabolic boost, lair, muscular augments, grooved spines, u-238 shells,
maelstrom, ion thrusters, cloaking field (wraith), adrenal glands, plague,
carrier capacity, stasis, lockdown, nuclear missile

120: halls, optical flare, lurker aspect, spires, psionic storm, mind control,
feedback, hive, emp shockwave, yamato cannon, recall

133: antennae (overlord sight), pneumatized carapace (overlord speed),
zealot upgrade, goliath upgrade, observer upgrades, ultralisk upgrades

140: carrier

160: arbiter, ventral sacs (overlord transport)

166: singularity charge (dragoon range), robotics upgrades, energy upgrades,
ocular implants (ghost sight), scout upgrades

266: level 1 upgrades

298: level 2 upgrades

330: level 3 upgrades

Nice, but you missed Battlecruiser (133). You also don't have to research Feedback. What is "Halls" under 120?

Edit: I presume you meant Halls to be Hatchery =)

STIMEY d okgm fish

Canada6140 Posts

February 18 2004 03:39 GMT

#78

yeah i forgot a few, unfortunately, still working that out. it's a lot to memorize. i used to have dark swarm in there, too. imo you can learn something about how much blizzard did (or didn't) balance when you see the build times of spells that no longer need to be researched

halls = hatchery, nexus, command center, i.e. town hall and great hall in war2 i.e. peons meaning peasants, scvs, drones, probes, and peons.

x[ReaPeR]x

United States3447 Posts

February 18 2004 03:46 GMT

#79

I can't stand how people want to fundamentally change the game because they suck at certain matchups.

The only players in the world that make TvZ "imbalanced" are BoxeR/NaDa/ILoveoov/XellOs etc. Even then there are a lot of other factors to explain Terran players winning. Such as Zerg not taking advantage of all of their capabilities (need to use Queens/Drop/Hive Tech more).

All that really needs to be looked at is stuff that has been shown time and time again to be imbalanced, which is PvZ island and ZvP land.

Since Protoss players are getting better at killing Lurkers I don't think that's that big of a problem. The biggest problem is that Ultras are too damn strong. I say that Maelstorm should be made better in some way to counter Ultras (my opinion).

I don't know what to say about PvZ island, as I really don't know much about it other than that it's damn cool to watch.

Every other matchup is balanced just fine. The only other change that really needs to be made to the game is that all land units without exception need to have AI quality equivelent to the Hydralisk's.

Yarertz

Djibouti1891 Posts

February 18 2004 03:46 GMT

#80

On February 18 2004 10:20 IcarusFalls wrote:
yea exactly like on my level i think that zerg is better.. but those few pro gamer terrans who might have an advantage over zerg.... what 3 terrans? .. lol sure make terran weaker ill just own with zerg more at my level : )

so fucking true