An Advanced Statistical Study of Protoss Rankings:
Abstract: In the past, uncertainty has gripped the Starcraft community regarding the ranking of Protoss players in terms of performance. A popular ranking system, known as the "Six Dragons Theory" has exhibited considerable popularity since its inception. Herein I discuss an enhanced player rating system based on recent performances in SL and PL.
Introduction: With the rise of the swarm and the rapid decline of the Protoss race, it has become increasingly difficult to determine whether or not Protoss players have fallen from the high point era now known as the era of the Six Dragons. These changes, sparked by new imbalanced maps for Zerg and Terran, have amplified the fall of the Protoss Race. Not surprisingly, Protosses have been suffering mightily at the hands of the Swarm as of late, constantly missing from Starleagues as of late. The question then may be asked: Which Protoss players constitute the new "Dragons" and shall represent the Protoss race for years to come?
With the aim of casting some light on the current Protoss situation, this article offers an overview of the complexity of ranking Protoss players and considers the diversity of success from various aspects of progaming.
Historical Background: In the early days of progaming, Protoss players have always experienced hardships when it came to success. Outside of a select few gamers, namely Garimto, Reach, Kingdom, Nal_rA, and Anytime, the Protoss race had little to no hope. With just 6 Starleague titles in a span from 2000 to 2006, Protosses had experienced little success in Starleagues, only to look on and watch Terran and Zerg bonjwas Boxer, Oov, Savior, and Nada combine for a whopping 18 titles alone.
However, even with their limited success, Protosses persevered onwards, finally gaining recognition as Bisu, the Revolutionist burst onto the scene and shocked then bonjwa Savior in the Gom TV MSL. Forever changing the way Protosses played against Zergs, the Protoss race experienced it's first stint of success, with Bisu and Stork leading the way.
In 2008, Protosses would experience great success in the ClubDay Online MSL, Incruit 2008 OSL, and GOM Season 1 Starleagues. For the first time in the ClubDay MSL, all four semifinalists were Protoss players (1). As the Protoss race ascended to the top, Koreans would soon deem 6 of these select Protoss players as the "Six Dragons" (2).
Why Only 6?: The volatile matchup of Protoss vs Zerg has always been an Achilles Heel for Protoss players. Historically, Zergs have won over 53% of games vs Protoss players, and has generally been considered an easy matchup for Zergs. Mediocre zergs such as Jju have even been quoted saying, "ZvP is easy. I can beat anyone at ZvP" in the past. After statistical surveys compiled by Korean netizens, the 6 dragons (Best, Bisu, Kal, Stork, Free, Jangbi) were selected by their >50% win rates in PvZ at the time along weighted along with impressive win ratios in their other two matchups. Therefore it is not surprising that other up and coming Protosses of the time such as Tempest and Backho were left out of the mix.
Does this theory still hold?: Fast forward a year and a half later to mid 2009. The era of the Six Dragons has come and gone. None of the dragons have consistently made it to even the latter stages of Starleagues as of recent, not to mention winning a Starleague. With the popularity of the 3 hatch spire to 5 hatch hydralisk build, Zergs have been completely dominating almost every Protoss player out there. Thus, the old Korean statistical survey holds little to no credibility anymore, thus necessitating the need for a new ranking system of Protoss players.
Proposal for Dragon Requirements: Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we have concluded that in order to qualify as a dragon, one:
Must have at least one Round of 16 appearance in either the MSL or OSL OR Must have a 100% win percentage in Ace matches in Proleague OR Must currently be within 90 points of their ELO peak OR Must have a career win % of greater than 65%.
However, just like in ancient Norse mythology, there can only be 10 dragons at a time.
Statistical Analysis : Therefore from our proposal, we compile a list of Dragons, before and after. All stats from TLPD (3).
Current "Dragons": Bisu, Best, Free, Jangbi, Stork, Kal
New Dragons: Best - Ro16 MSL Free - 100% win rate in Ace Matches Jangbi - Ro16 MSL Stork - Ro16 OSL Kal - Ro16 MSL and 100% win rate in Ace Matches Movie (New!)- Ro16 OSL Stats (New!)- Ro16 MSL Guemchi (New!) - Ro16 MSL Pure (New!)- Ro16 OSL Violet (New!)- 100% win rate in Ace Matches
Slain Dragons: Bisu - Fulfills none of the requirements
Ramifications: Contrary to popular belief, Bisu is no longer among the best of the Protoss race. With lackluster Proleague results and his disappearance from the latest Starleagues, Bisu has fallen from his high and mighty throne. His fall from grace is evident by the large difference between his current ELO and his ELO peak (5). A new breed of dragons (Movie, Stats, Guemchi, Pure, and Violet) have now come to take his place. One might question the values set as the dragon requirements. Yes, the requirements could have been modified so that Bisu would be included in the Dragon list. However, with slight modifications, even mediocre Protosses such as Horang2 and Backho would have been included in the list of dragons.
Closing Comments: The analysis presented in this article may be debated by many people. The first of many arguments that may arise would be the "But Bisu is still good in PL argument!". Rest assured, while Bisu has been winning games, he has also been losing many and has yet to show spectacular Proleague results as Dragons Violet, Free, and Kal have. Each of them holds a 100% win ratio in Ace matches, proving that they are good enough to be sent out for Ace matches and are good enough to win them on a consistent basis. Bisu has yet to show these results and has even been struggling against rookies such as Haksoo and Turn. Even more damning, he recently dropped a game to Frozean (4). None of the dragons named by this study has ever dropped a televised game to Cuteangel. While a certain simplification of the dragon standards may be beneficial, it is imperative that we keep a system that does not encompass a majority of the sample size in the study.
Being a dragoon sounds too badass for Guemchi, Pure, and Stats.
Sure they may meet the requirements, but I don't think any of these 3 players were ones who jumped into peoples heads as they were going into this thread.
Oh wow I can forsee some rage from bisu fanboys comming.
Nice stats, not sure if you can consider them dragons in not so favorable protoss age at this moment. If you'd consider performance and appearance wise, Stork - Kal - Movie and Violet are probably the better players of this early season.
The requirements you set seem pretty arbitrary. What's the point of calling those 10 players dragons? They just happen to be Protoss players that made it into starleagues + Violet.
On January 09 2010 10:12 ProoM wrote: Oh my, I forsee the upcoming bisu fanboyism rage. Dont be surprised if one day you will find yourself hunged on a tree for this!
Uh... I'm more annoyed at stupid comments like yours than at what Roffles put in his OP. I'm not pissed off at his OP at all actually lol
Why would bisu fanboys get mad? If I make a post "guys, fuck what you heard, flash SUCKS" no one is going to take me seriously. Just like no one is going to take this arbitrary declaration of "10 dragons" seriously.
You seem to mean well and all, but no. Defining "dragon" like this makes light of what the six dragons did and its also completely meaningless.
The 6 dragons earned that name because Protoss has historically been the weakest race in terms of performance in individual leagues, but suddenly you had six Protoss players showing an all around high skill level and displaying strong performance in the individual leagues to the point where 6 Protoss players made the KeSPA top 10 rankings:
This is why they are the six dragons. And there can only ever be six dragons because "dragon" isn't a title; "Six Dragons" is the title. It is a title given to a generation of protoss players who changed the way we think about balance.
These new rising stars like Movie and Violet will perhaps earn such a title for themselves in time, or perhaps not, but in all likelihood they will not be called "dragons" but something different instead.
Edit: Also, I'd like to point out that the dragon title had nothing to do with Norse mythology. Ever.
Stop using the term Dragons geez. I like Bisu, Stork, JangBi, KaL and all but man calling them dragons just make it sound so cheezy. I like the 3 Protoss Kings or Neo Protoss Kings. But at the moment, the top Protoss players are Stork, KaL, Movie and Violet. The others are slacking off.
If we do an analysis of the original 6 dragons, we see that they were considered dragons because they were just that good.
They all had in common: - 60%+ win percentage for a few months - Best or second best player on their respective teams - Were in the top 10 kespa rankings - Were in the top 15 ELO rankings - Were in the power rank
The only Protoss players right now that still have those qualities are Stork, Kal and Movie (11th and 12th on Kespa, whatever).
Nvm, seems like OP is just making a point about arbitrary titles.
On January 09 2010 10:00 Roffles wrote: Ramifications: Contrary to popular belief, Bisu is no longer among the best of the Protoss race. With lackluster Proleague results and his disappearance from the latest Starleagues, Bisu has fallen from his high and mighty throne. His fall from grace is evident by the large difference between his current ELO and his ELO peak (5). A new breed of dragons (Movie, Stats, Guemchi, Pure, and Violet) have now come to take his place. One might question the arbitrary values set as the dragon requirements. Yes, the requirements could have been modified so that Bisu would be included in the Dragon list. However, even with slight modifications, even mediocre Protosses such as Horang2 and Backho would have been included in the list of dragons.
while we're at it, why don't we remove the title of 'the emperor' from boxer and 'maestro' from savior...
???silly standarts i'm a bisu hater and def he is still one of the best pvzout there no matter how u put it after a glimps of look in the data on bisu and than looking at guemchi one can only laugh at the proposal being in the round of 16 doesnt mean u'r a dragon and certainly says nothing on your pvz i do agree some new names are starting to appear but taking off bisu is pure silly and just for some facts guemchi hasnt faced any zerg in the msl (not including prelimenaries) anyway cute idea but in my opinion u'r taking it to the wrong place
For the last time, "Six Dragons" isn't just some title that gets attached to the best protosses around. It was given to Bisu/Stork/Jangbi/Kal/Free/Best because of their dominance in a SPECIFIC PERIOD OF TIME. It's a title just like the "Three Protoss Kings" or "Neo Protoss Kings", because it defines that season. It's not like we just take the top 3 Protoss players and forever after call them the Protoss Kings. That title refers to three specific players in a specific period of time. You don't just start slapping it on random Protoss players just because they happen to start doing well.
EDIT: This guy says it better:
On January 09 2010 10:15 Mortality wrote: You seem to mean well and all, but no. Defining "dragon" like this makes light of what the six dragons did and its also completely meaningless.
The 6 dragons earned that name because Protoss has historically been the weakest race in terms of performance in individual leagues, but suddenly you had six Protoss players showing an all around high skill level and displaying strong performance in the individual leagues to the point where 6 Protoss players made the KeSPA top 10 rankings:
This is why they are the six dragons. And there can only ever be six dragons because "dragon" isn't a title; "Six Dragons" is the title. It is a title given to a generation of protoss players who changed the way we think about balance.
These new rising stars like Movie and Violet will perhaps earn such a title for themselves in time, or perhaps not, but in all likelihood they will not be called "dragons" but something different instead.
Edit: Also, I'd like to point out that the dragon title had nothing to do with Norse mythology. Ever.
On January 09 2010 10:15 Mortality wrote: You seem to mean well and all, but no. Defining "dragon" like this makes light of what the six dragons did and its also completely meaningless.
The 6 dragons earned that name because Protoss has historically been the weakest race in terms of performance in individual leagues, but suddenly you had six Protoss players showing an all around high skill level and displaying strong performance in the individual leagues to the point where 6 Protoss players made the KeSPA top 10 rankings:
This is why they are the six dragons. And there can only ever be six dragons because "dragon" isn't a title; "Six Dragons" is the title. It is a title given to a generation of protoss players who changed the way we think about balance.
These new rising stars like Movie and Violet will perhaps earn such a title for themselves in time, or perhaps not, but in all likelihood they will not be called "dragons" but something different instead.
I'm ashamed to find myself agreeing with this post.
6 Dragons actually meant something, it was very terrifying though when you were thinking about them. Now you want to make it soooo simple, just have good PL stats or be in ro16 or something or something. Maybe let's add 1 win at minor league to requirement?
And lol at 100% winrate in PL, it discards great players who play a lot and gives opportunity to someone who played like 1 ace match in his whole life and won it luckily vs weak opponent
On January 09 2010 10:15 Mortality wrote: Edit: Also, I'd like to point out that the dragon title had nothing to do with Norse mythology. Ever.
Actually, within this article (http://norddulac.tripod.com/norse.doc) you'll find the reference to the six dragons that he was talking about. In Norse mythology, they weren't explicitly called "dragons" but you can see where Koreans got the idea from.
On January 09 2010 10:29 Djabanete wrote: The Six Dragon are Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, free, Best, and Kal.
Those are the Six Dragons. That's what the fans called them and that's who they are.
You quite clearly didn't read the article. Bisu should no longer be considered a dragon because of his recent poor play. All of the other original dragons are still doing rather well, but Bisu is playing very poorly. He no longer deserves the title of being a dragon.
On January 09 2010 10:29 Djabanete wrote: The Six Dragon are Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, free, Best, and Kal.
Those are the Six Dragons. That's what the fans called them and that's who they are.
You quite clearly didn't read the article. Bisu should no longer be considered a dragon because of his recent poor play. All of the other original dragons are still doing rather well, but Bisu is playing very poorly. He no longer deserves the title of being a dragon. He's been degraded to Acorn status now.
Again, the analogy has been given that if current standing can degrade a historical title, then Boxer should no longer be called the Emperor, Savior should no longer be called the Maestro, and all "Protoss King" related terminology is irrelevant except for Stork.
"Six Dragons" has historical meaning in referring to one of the few seasons of unquestionable Protoss dominance. To start throwing that title around degrades that significance, regardless of current performance.
Above all, "Six Dragons" is a nickname. Since when are there requirements for a NICKNAME? If it's what people call you, that's what it is. There is no "meeting requirements" for a nickname.
Perhaps there will be a "Neo Six Dragons" just as there were "Neo Protoss Kings". Except, for that to happen, there will have to be a period of Protoss dominance again.
In the spirit of this thread, I have made my own ranking of protoss pros. I call them the 17 Griffins. They've all beaten a Korean progamer this season and/or a TL strategy forum moderator, but they haven't lost to Cuteangel in the last few months.
On January 09 2010 10:33 Jyvblamo wrote: In the spirit of this thread, I have made my own ranking of protoss pros. I call them the 17 Griffins. They've all beaten a Korean progamer this season and/or a TL strategy forum moderator, but they haven't lost to Cuteangel in the last few months.
On January 09 2010 10:33 Jyvblamo wrote: In the spirit of this thread, I have made my own ranking of protoss pros. I call them the 17 Griffins. They've all beaten a Korean progamer this season and/or a TL strategy forum moderator, but they haven't lost to Cuteangel in the last few months.
On January 09 2010 10:29 Djabanete wrote: The Six Dragon are Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, free, Best, and Kal.
Those are the Six Dragons. That's what the fans called them and that's who they are.
You quite clearly didn't read the article. Bisu should no longer be considered a dragon because of his recent poor play. All of the other original dragons are still doing rather well, but Bisu is playing very poorly. He no longer deserves the title of being a dragon. He's been degraded to Acorn status now.
u clearly do not understand him, basing that on recent performance then u can say that nada isnt the 'genius terran' and xellos isnt the 'perfect terran' anymore, but their titles still stand. like this the 6 dragons belong only to those 6
I'm a Bisu hater and I don't think he belongs among the top Protosses at the moment. He is certainly performing better than you give him credit for though, and the new guys are really not up to scratch in comparison. I would contend that in this era where Protoss do not dominate the game there would be fewer dragons instead of more. I would say that Stork, Kal, and Violet, with the possible addition of Bisu and Jangbi who seem to have recovered from their slumps, are the only contenders. I also would like to point out that the dragons were a vestige of Protoss dominance, and the term is really being shoehorned into modern times when it is even used.
On January 09 2010 10:29 Djabanete wrote: The Six Dragon are Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, free, Best, and Kal.
Those are the Six Dragons. That's what the fans called them and that's who they are.
You quite clearly didn't read the article. Bisu should no longer be considered a dragon because of his recent poor play. All of the other original dragons are still doing rather well, but Bisu is playing very poorly. He no longer deserves the title of being a dragon. He's been degraded to Acorn status now.
I did read the article. I'm just saying that you can't change the titles that have been bestowed on progamers by fans. It doesn't matter if Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, free, Best and Kal all go into a slump forever --- they're still the Six Dragons.
Fuck, remember that thread where each of the six dragons had a badass, hi-res, colored dragon picture with his name? That shit was epic.
Ya, kinda 'weak' or low-caliber stats and attributes to include such players in the List of the Dragons, like Stats, Violet or Pure. I mean, I love Protoss to death and definately support the race, but Violet and Pure just haven't really been cuttin' it that sharp (despite a few gg's here n there), I dont think they're really on par, today, as the Dragons were in the past. The original 6 was dominating the scene! With Bisu and Jangbi making it to 2 finals at the time, ClubDay and the Gom tv season 2, both of which Bisu won.
Sure, getting into the RO16 in a Starleague is awesome and obviously says a lot about their skill and improvements but I think Semi's or getting to finals is more of a bold statement, obviously. RO 16's are like "the nitty-gritty" and the best of the best of that tournament, and theres been a lot of players to get there of varying skill that may or may not have deserved it. Players like Stork and Jangbi, to get to semi's and final stages numerous times (even if they fall short) is a new criteria of accomplishments to merit their involvement and label as a Dragon.
I'll admit, and support though, Movie is moving quickly up the ranks and in terms of performance. He's made it to the finals of the OSL going up against Flash and this will truely be his test of Protoss understanding and might. I'm not even concerned if he wins, although i truely do hope that he does! Even if he manages to put up a good fight in most games, or win a few, cutting it to a close series like 2-3 or so, then i'll be proud and accept him as a 'Dragon', or at least, the next Protoss player to look out for. He had a very good series against Shine, who seemingly came out of nowhere and had pretty shocking results getting to the semi's etc. I just hope he doesn't get nervous/star-struck and lose a dismal 0-3 in the finals.. even though he is going up against Flash.
I think Guemchi might even be doing a bit better.. but still, StatS, Violet and Pure.. aren't really up to par with someone like Movie's success of the former success of the 'classic' Dragons.
very dissapointing to hear about Bisu's latest results and progress. He definately carried the torch high and proudly as the leader in the Protoss revolution. En Taro Bisu!
It really brings a new perspective, and I agree that Bisu is no longer a dragon. He simply isn't posting the results, but Guemchi, Pure, and Stats? Terrible players.
6 dragons = Stork, Movie, Kal, Free, BeSt, Jangbi
ez
Violet still needs to figure out if he isn't just another newbie :D
On January 09 2010 10:07 domane wrote: I disagree about Stats, Guemchi, and Pure. But I agree Violet and Movie definitely deserve your hype.
what are u talking about? Stats is VeryGood player find the game he played vs Fantasy on destination look what am talking about Pure and Guemchi i can agree with u but Stats will be the next OSL or MSL winner imo.
Ok... I'm no Bisu fanboy but taking Bisu from the 6 dragons is just ridiculous. He has been losing important individual tourny games, true. But it looks like the OP didn't even check Bisu's stats with his own requirements (no research). He has like at least 2 wins for every loss. And yes, he has won every ace match he has been in this season, which is one.
I agree he shouldn't be considered the undisputed best protoss anymore, but taking him out of the list for the current top protoss players is alittle retarded and pretty premature.
Btw, free has only played 1 ace match and he didn't get any farther than Bisu in MSL or OSL and has been losing almost 50% of his PL games this season. If you think Bisu doesn't qualify, Free sure as hell does not qualify.
1) Bisu is 13-4 in Proleague and has a 64.6 career winning percentage, which is the highest of any Protoss right now. (You obviously can't count guys with 2-0 record. Just look at Bisu's sample) The man has a 67% in PvZ.
2) Your requirements are ridiculously arbitrary. It seems like you came up with requirement that Bisu can't meet. Guemchi somehow stumbles to the RO16 this season and deserves to replace Bisu? Give me a break.
3) Six Dragons was a term specifically referring to Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, Free, BeSt and Kal. It's not a substitute term for a "good Protoss player." Even though Boxer and Savior are bad now we don't remove their titles of "The Emperor" or "The Maestro."
On January 09 2010 11:14 OneOther wrote: It's okay though, Bisu just needs to win a game or two to raise his % from 64.6 to 65.0 and he can again be one of "The Ten Dragons" lol
Yes Bisu has been doing preety bad lately but i still consider him a Dragon. Lately only Stork Movie Kal and Violet are doing good. Add Bisu as the 6th Dragon (barely) and maybe Best as 5th. Jangbi and Free are doing preety poorly overall in last few months so they are out !
Considering Stats Guemchi and Pure s fuckin Dragons is blasphemy !
On January 09 2010 11:13 OneOther wrote: 3) Six Dragons was a term specifically referring to Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, Free, BeSt and Kal. It's not a substitute term for a "good Protoss player." Even though Boxer and Savior are bad now we don't remove their titles of "The Emperor" or "The Maestro."
This just in:
1) Flash, Fantasy, Sea, Leta, and Really are now "The Five Emperors".
2) Jaedong, Calm, and Kwanro are now "The Three Maestros".
I thought all of the dragons had died out right around when Outside was introduced. Oh, and I'm sorry, but besides his little run in the OSL, Best has been terrible (particularly in proleague). I can't consider him a dragon.+ Show Spoiler +
Especially since he gave me 5 points in fantasy...
i dunno where u got those requirement from, but if Bisu is out, then i'm all good. seriously though, those r really weak requirements. any protoss player can cheese their way into the ro16 of a starleague or play in one ace match, win it and technically have 100% ace match win rate or some new protoss player can win just one game, be at 100% and be at their peak ELO. there needs to be some sort of minimum game requirement or double requirement for ur system to even begin making sense.
edit: by the requirement of being within 90 points of the player's ELO peak, these players would also be "dragons": Sangho M18M Horang2 Soo Jaehoon Spear Han and probably many more
pretty sure no one considers any of those players to be dragons
On January 09 2010 11:52 Comeh wrote: I thought all of the dragons had died out right around when Outside was introduced. Oh, and I'm sorry, but besides his little run in the OSL, Best has been terrible (particularly in proleague). I can't consider him a dragon.+ Show Spoiler +
Especially since he gave me 5 points in fantasy...
Well, your fantasy argument has some merit I guess, but, uh, 60% wins and he's "been terrible"? Granted last year wasn't his greatest (32-33 overall in 2009). He's maybe not great. But his OSL run (finals vs July, semi-final loss to Stork, quarterfinal loss to Bisu) was as good as, say, fantasy's.
He's inconsistent, but then that's the hallmark of the new generation of SKT "stars" (BeSt, fantasy, Hyuk if he even qualifies as a star any more in any sense). But he's not terrible.
While his performance this past year's been shaky, overall his PL record is quite good and in-line with his total overall performance. No hating on BeSt.
On January 09 2010 11:53 IntoTheWow wrote: ITT sore bisu fanbois
majority of this thread is anti fans or people calling roffles a troll. One thing I can NOT stand is when people lol at bisu fan boys while the reality is, 99% of his fans dont say shit because the anti fan crowd is many times as large and will gank them if they do.
Being in the Ro16 for the MSL and OSL aren't exactly achievements if you look at how they got in... personally i think you need AT LEAST semifinals to be considered a dragon. even after that you need to be consistently good in PL
On January 09 2010 11:52 Comeh wrote: I thought all of the dragons had died out right around when Outside was introduced. Oh, and I'm sorry, but besides his little run in the OSL, Best has been terrible (particularly in proleague). I can't consider him a dragon.+ Show Spoiler +
Especially since he gave me 5 points in fantasy...
Well, your fantasy argument has some merit I guess, but, uh, 60% wins and he's "been terrible"? Granted last year wasn't his greatest (32-33 overall in 2009). He's maybe not great. But his OSL run (finals vs July, semi-final loss to Stork, quarterfinal loss to Bisu) was as good as, say, fantasy's.
He's inconsistent, but then that's the hallmark of the new generation of SKT "stars" (BeSt, fantasy, Hyuk if he even qualifies as a star any more in any sense). But he's not terrible.
While his performance this past year's been shaky, overall his PL record is quite good and in-line with his total overall performance. No hating on BeSt.
True enough, BeSt hasn't been terrible (a harsh word, admittedly). However, his play in proleague as of late has been quite underwhelming. I would say he's a little too mediocre lately to consider him a dragon (though, he DID make it to OSL semis...so its a hard call)
On January 09 2010 12:21 Mykill wrote: Bisu is gonna win a few games and become a "Dragon" again.
We might as well change these things to TL 100! where we rank top 100 tosses, top 100 zergs and top 100 terrans
TL 100 doesn't have a cool enough name. It has to be like TL 100 Black Star Tiger Razor Blades! Then people will be interested.
Abstract: In the past, uncertainty has gripped the Starcraft community regarding the ranking of Zerg players in terms of performance. A popular ranking system, known as the "Maestro Theory" has exhibited considerable popularity since its inception. Herein I discuss an enhanced player rating system based on random shit that makes players I like look good and players I don't like look bad hard statistics.
Introduction: With the rise of the forces of Aiur and the rapid decline of the Zerg race, it has become increasingly hard easy to determine whether or not The Maestro has fallen from the high point era now known as 'the era before Bisu raped him'. These changes, sparked by new imbalanced maps for Protoss and Terran, have amplified the fall of the Zerg Race Savior. Not surprisingly, Savior has been suffering mightily at the hands of everyone as of late, constantly missing from Starleagues as of late. The question then may be asked: Which Zerg players constitute the new "Maestros" and shall represent the Zerg race for years to come?
With the aim of casting some light on the current Zerg situation, this article offers an overview of the complexity of ranking Zerg players and considers the diversity of success from various aspects of progaming.
Historical Background: In the early days of progaming, Zerg players have always experienced hardships when it came to success. We all remember how hilarious sad it was when Yellow always ended up coming up just a little bit short. I dislike Terran players. I dislike Terran players a lot.
However, even with their limited success, Zergs persevered onwards, finally gaining recognition as Savior, the Maestro burst onto the scene and shocked the scrub imba Terrans. Forever changing the way Zergs played against everyone, the Zerg race experienced it's first stint of success, with Savior leading the way.
Why Only 1?: The volatile matchup of Zerg vs Terran has always been an Achilles Heel for Zerg players. Historically, Terrans have won over 53% of games vs Zerg players, and has generally been considered an easy matchup for Terrans. Mediocre Terrans such as CuteAngel have even been quoted saying, "HAHAHA, MANNER CC IN YOUR MAIN BISU" in the past (and that's not even TvZ). After statistical surveys compiled by Korean netizens, the Maestro (Savior) was selected for his >50% win rates in ZvT awesome hair to be the head of the Zerg race.
Does this theory still hold?: Fast forward two years and a half later to mid 2009. The era of the Maestro has come and gone. Savior hasn't consistently made it to even the latter stages of Starleagues as of recent, not to mention winning a Starleague. With the Terrans not sucking as much hookers and blow he wasted his prize money on, everyone has been completely dominating the Maestro. Thus, the old Korean statistical survey holds little to no credibility anymore, thus necessitating the need for a new ranking system of Zerg players.
Proposal for Maestro Requirements: Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we ('we' referring to me and my mum, who I asked for advice on this) have concluded that in order to qualify as a maestro, one:
Must be a somewhat kinda decent Zerg player. AND Must not have been born on November 23rd, 1987.
Statistical Analysis : Therefore from our proposal, we compile a list of Maestros, before and after.
Slain Maestros: sAviOr - Violates the second requirement.
Ramifications: Entirely according to popular belief, Savior is no longer among the best of the Zerg race. With lackluster Proleague results and his disappearance from the latest Starleagues, Savior has fallen from his high and mighty throne. His fall from grace is evident by the fact that he failed to destroy everyone in 2009.
Closing Comments: The analysis presented in this article may be debated by many people. The first of many arguments that may arise would be the "This is pretty dumb". You've got a point there.
I think that kespa ranking of the top 6 protoss is a pretty accurate way to describe the dragons. Sure Stork, Bisu, Movie, Kal, Jangbi, and Pure don't sound like the best combo (Stork, Bisu, Kal, Movie, BeSt, and Violet sound a bit more accurate) but let the ranking from next month come in and I bet it will be a more accurate analysis of it.
On January 09 2010 12:57 Hinanawi wrote: An Advanced Statistical Study of Zerg Rankings:
Abstract: In the past, uncertainty has gripped the Starcraft community regarding the ranking of Zerg players in terms of performance. A popular ranking system, known as the "Maestro Theory" has exhibited considerable popularity since its inception. Herein I discuss an enhanced player rating system based on random shit that makes players I like look good and players I don't like look bad hard statistics.
Introduction: With the rise of the forces of Aiur and the rapid decline of the Zerg race, it has become increasingly hard easy to determine whether or not The Maestro has fallen from the high point era now known as 'the era before Bisu raped him'. These changes, sparked by new imbalanced maps for Protoss and Terran, have amplified the fall of the Zerg Race Savior. Not surprisingly, Savior has been suffering mightily at the hands of everyone as of late, constantly missing from Starleagues as of late. The question then may be asked: Which Zerg players constitute the new "Maestros" and shall represent the Zerg race for years to come?
With the aim of casting some light on the current Zerg situation, this article offers an overview of the complexity of ranking Zerg players and considers the diversity of success from various aspects of progaming.
Historical Background: In the early days of progaming, Zerg players have always experienced hardships when it came to success. We all remember how hilarious sad it was when Yellow always ended up coming up just a little bit short. I dislike Terran players. I dislike Terran players a lot.
However, even with their limited success, Zergs persevered onwards, finally gaining recognition as Savior, the Maestro burst onto the scene and shocked the scrub imba Terrans. Forever changing the way Zergs played against everyone, the Zerg race experienced it's first stint of success, with Savior leading the way.
Why Only 1?: The volatile matchup of Zerg vs Terran has always been an Achilles Heel for Zerg players. Historically, Terrans have won over 53% of games vs Zerg players, and has generally been considered an easy matchup for Terrans. Mediocre Terrans such as CuteAngel have even been quoted saying, "HAHAHA, MANNER CC IN YOUR MAIN BISU" in the past (and that's not even TvZ). After statistical surveys compiled by Korean netizens, the Maestro (Savior) was selected for his >50% win rates in ZvT awesome hair to be the head of the Zerg race.
Does this theory still hold?: Fast forward two years and a half later to mid 2009. The era of the Maestro has come and gone. Savior hasn't consistently made it to even the latter stages of Starleagues as of recent, not to mention winning a Starleague. With the Terrans not sucking as much hookers and blow he wasted his prize money on, everyone has been completely dominating the Maestro. Thus, the old Korean statistical survey holds little to no credibility anymore, thus necessitating the need for a new ranking system of Zerg players.
Proposal for Maestro Requirements: Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we ('we' referring to me and my mum, who I asked for advice on this) have concluded that in order to qualify as a maestro, one:
Must be a somewhat kinda decent Zerg player. AND Must not have been born on November 23rd, 1987.
Statistical Analysis : Therefore from our proposal, we compile a list of Maestros, before and after.
Slain Maestros: sAviOr - Violates the second requirement.
Ramifications: Entirely according to popular belief, Savior is no longer among the best of the Zerg race. With lackluster Proleague results and his disappearance from the latest Starleagues, Savior has fallen from his high and mighty throne. His fall from grace is evident by the fact that he failed to destroy everyone in 2009.
Closing Comments: The analysis presented in this article may be debated by many people. The first of many arguments that may arise would be the "This is pretty dumb". You've got a point there.
On January 09 2010 12:57 Hinanawi wrote: An Advanced Statistical Study of Zerg Rankings:
Abstract: In the past, uncertainty has gripped the Starcraft community regarding the ranking of Zerg players in terms of performance. A popular ranking system, known as the "Maestro Theory" has exhibited considerable popularity since its inception. Herein I discuss an enhanced player rating system based on random shit that makes players I like look good and players I don't like look bad hard statistics.
Introduction: With the rise of the forces of Aiur and the rapid decline of the Zerg race, it has become increasingly hard easy to determine whether or not The Maestro has fallen from the high point era now known as 'the era before Bisu raped him'. These changes, sparked by new imbalanced maps for Protoss and Terran, have amplified the fall of the Zerg Race Savior. Not surprisingly, Savior has been suffering mightily at the hands of everyone as of late, constantly missing from Starleagues as of late. The question then may be asked: Which Zerg players constitute the new "Maestros" and shall represent the Zerg race for years to come?
With the aim of casting some light on the current Zerg situation, this article offers an overview of the complexity of ranking Zerg players and considers the diversity of success from various aspects of progaming.
Historical Background: In the early days of progaming, Zerg players have always experienced hardships when it came to success. We all remember how hilarious sad it was when Yellow always ended up coming up just a little bit short. I dislike Terran players. I dislike Terran players a lot.
However, even with their limited success, Zergs persevered onwards, finally gaining recognition as Savior, the Maestro burst onto the scene and shocked the scrub imba Terrans. Forever changing the way Zergs played against everyone, the Zerg race experienced it's first stint of success, with Savior leading the way.
Why Only 1?: The volatile matchup of Zerg vs Terran has always been an Achilles Heel for Zerg players. Historically, Terrans have won over 53% of games vs Zerg players, and has generally been considered an easy matchup for Terrans. Mediocre Terrans such as CuteAngel have even been quoted saying, "HAHAHA, MANNER CC IN YOUR MAIN BISU" in the past (and that's not even TvZ). After statistical surveys compiled by Korean netizens, the Maestro (Savior) was selected for his >50% win rates in ZvT awesome hair to be the head of the Zerg race.
Does this theory still hold?: Fast forward two years and a half later to mid 2009. The era of the Maestro has come and gone. Savior hasn't consistently made it to even the latter stages of Starleagues as of recent, not to mention winning a Starleague. With the Terrans not sucking as much hookers and blow he wasted his prize money on, everyone has been completely dominating the Maestro. Thus, the old Korean statistical survey holds little to no credibility anymore, thus necessitating the need for a new ranking system of Zerg players.
Proposal for Maestro Requirements: Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we ('we' referring to me and my mum, who I asked for advice on this) have concluded that in order to qualify as a maestro, one:
Must be a somewhat kinda decent Zerg player. AND Must not have been born on November 23rd, 1987.
Statistical Analysis : Therefore from our proposal, we compile a list of Maestros, before and after.
Slain Maestros: sAviOr - Violates the second requirement.
Ramifications: Entirely according to popular belief, Savior is no longer among the best of the Zerg race. With lackluster Proleague results and his disappearance from the latest Starleagues, Savior has fallen from his high and mighty throne. His fall from grace is evident by the fact that he failed to destroy everyone in 2009.
Closing Comments: The analysis presented in this article may be debated by many people. The first of many arguments that may arise would be the "This is pretty dumb". You've got a point there.
personally, i think you're setting the bar really low for a dragon. And you are completely ignoring the legacy or "aura" that surrounds a dragon. Who would a progamer rather face today, Bisu or Guemchi? Titles like "dragon" aren't meant to be statistically defined, but rather felt by simply following the game.
Hahaha, nice work. That was a pretty good read. Was the PvZ imbalance resting only on around 53% before Bisu revolutionized the entire system? Because that sound pretty balanced to me. And what's the stats after Bisu's revolution?
Anyhow, the 6 Dragons are really just 6 Protoss players that hit their peak at the same time, causing a reign of Protoss dominance, empowered by the anti-Zerg Bisu build and Stork's PvT innovations. Favorable maps certainly helped a lot too. Carriers were still imba abuse against Terran back then. There was no real requirement or anything. Much would have made into the 6 Dragon rank as well if you were looking for the requirements that you listed. It's just that Much fell from his peak when the 6 Dragons hit theirs.
Hell, even to this day, we are not sure what the requirements for a "bonjwa" is. 3 MSL and 1 OSL? What about Boxer? And why do OSL count more than MSL when technically, MSL system is actually more difficult for newcomers?
All the requirements are pretty lolz worthy. You set the requirements in such a way that all former Protoss dragons except Bisu plus some extras would get included into your top 10 Protoss list, without giving sufficient backing as to why those requirements are set. The 100% win in Proleague ACE one really cracked me up. If any Dragon should be slain, it's Free. Guemchi or Stats beating Bisu in a BO series? Oh please.
On January 09 2010 14:53 StuDToSs wrote: They should have something like that for zerg and terran like the 6 Tyrants for zerg or the 3 musketeers for terran or something like that.
The only "racial group" that I know of is the Three Kings, which consisted of Nal_ra, Kingdom and Reach, the three Protoss players.
The reason behind that is that they were the only Protoss players that are worth anything for quite a long period of time...
On January 09 2010 13:11 fearus wrote: roffles basically made up a set of criterias himself to determine the best protoss players around and to excluded bisu from the list..
yes, he deliberately excluded bisu..
because without excluding bisu....it wouldnt have been worth posting nor would any1 actually read it and care
Nah, people would care if he excluded Stork. It just would have been a much more obvious troll.
On January 09 2010 13:11 fearus wrote: roffles basically made up a set of criterias himself to determine the best protoss players around and to excluded bisu from the list..
yes, he deliberately excluded bisu..
because without excluding bisu....it wouldnt have been worth posting nor would any1 actually read it and care
Nah, people would care if he excluded Stork. It just would have been a much more obvious troll.
I think you underestimated the difference between Bisu fanboy and Stork fanboy. Just check out the sheer number of SKT fans and you would realize why Bisu is excluded.
If he excluded Stork somehow, which is pretty impossible since Stork is clearly playing S-class, that would be super obvious troll and this thread would get lols. Nobody will actually try to put up an argument as to why Stork should be Dragon, cuz it's pretty obvious. Bisu isn't doing good, a kick on the Bisu fanboys and girls while they are down inspire far greater responses.
On January 09 2010 10:00 Roffles wrote: Proposal for Dragon Requirements: Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we have concluded that in order to qualify as a dragon, one:
Must have at least one Round of 16 appearance in either the MSL or OSL OR Must have a 100% win percentage in Ace matches in Proleague OR Must currently be within 90 points of their ELO peak OR Must have a career win % of greater than 65%.
However, just like in ancient Norse mythology, there can only be 10 dragons at a time.
Did ya get these straight from anti-bisu ideals? Was it like, "Hm, whats a good career winrate limit? What's Bisu at, 64.6%? Minimum 65% then. How about ELO peak. Bisu is what, 94 points below his peak? Lets go 90 points maximum then." And seriously, 100% winrate in ace matches? A teams top ace player is gonna play quite a few matches, and the more often they are sent out the more likely it is they are gonna lose at least one game. You've got Guemchi as a dragon. Would you feel safer putting money on guemchi or bisu to win against the same opponent?
On January 09 2010 12:57 Hinanawi wrote: An Advanced Statistical Study of Zerg Rankings:
Abstract: In the past, uncertainty has gripped the Starcraft community regarding the ranking of Zerg players in terms of performance. A popular ranking system, known as the "Maestro Theory" has exhibited considerable popularity since its inception. Herein I discuss an enhanced player rating system based on random shit that makes players I like look good and players I don't like look bad hard statistics.
Introduction: With the rise of the forces of Aiur and the rapid decline of the Zerg race, it has become increasingly hard easy to determine whether or not The Maestro has fallen from the high point era now known as 'the era before Bisu raped him'. These changes, sparked by new imbalanced maps for Protoss and Terran, have amplified the fall of the Zerg Race Savior. Not surprisingly, Savior has been suffering mightily at the hands of everyone as of late, constantly missing from Starleagues as of late. The question then may be asked: Which Zerg players constitute the new "Maestros" and shall represent the Zerg race for years to come?
With the aim of casting some light on the current Zerg situation, this article offers an overview of the complexity of ranking Zerg players and considers the diversity of success from various aspects of progaming.
Historical Background: In the early days of progaming, Zerg players have always experienced hardships when it came to success. We all remember how hilarious sad it was when Yellow always ended up coming up just a little bit short. I dislike Terran players. I dislike Terran players a lot.
However, even with their limited success, Zergs persevered onwards, finally gaining recognition as Savior, the Maestro burst onto the scene and shocked the scrub imba Terrans. Forever changing the way Zergs played against everyone, the Zerg race experienced it's first stint of success, with Savior leading the way.
Why Only 1?: The volatile matchup of Zerg vs Terran has always been an Achilles Heel for Zerg players. Historically, Terrans have won over 53% of games vs Zerg players, and has generally been considered an easy matchup for Terrans. Mediocre Terrans such as CuteAngel have even been quoted saying, "HAHAHA, MANNER CC IN YOUR MAIN BISU" in the past (and that's not even TvZ). After statistical surveys compiled by Korean netizens, the Maestro (Savior) was selected for his >50% win rates in ZvT awesome hair to be the head of the Zerg race.
Does this theory still hold?: Fast forward two years and a half later to mid 2009. The era of the Maestro has come and gone. Savior hasn't consistently made it to even the latter stages of Starleagues as of recent, not to mention winning a Starleague. With the Terrans not sucking as much hookers and blow he wasted his prize money on, everyone has been completely dominating the Maestro. Thus, the old Korean statistical survey holds little to no credibility anymore, thus necessitating the need for a new ranking system of Zerg players.
Proposal for Maestro Requirements: Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we ('we' referring to me and my mum, who I asked for advice on this) have concluded that in order to qualify as a maestro, one:
Must be a somewhat kinda decent Zerg player. AND Must not have been born on November 23rd, 1987.
Statistical Analysis : Therefore from our proposal, we compile a list of Maestros, before and after.
Slain Maestros: sAviOr - Violates the second requirement.
Ramifications: Entirely according to popular belief, Savior is no longer among the best of the Zerg race. With lackluster Proleague results and his disappearance from the latest Starleagues, Savior has fallen from his high and mighty throne. His fall from grace is evident by the fact that he failed to destroy everyone in 2009.
Closing Comments: The analysis presented in this article may be debated by many people. The first of many arguments that may arise would be the "This is pretty dumb". You've got a point there.
Sources: * theonion.com
I think this pretty much sums up my thoughts
That OctZerg is atleast the sixth best Zerg player in the world?
On January 09 2010 10:00 Roffles wrote: Proposal for Dragon Requirements: Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we have concluded that in order to qualify as a dragon, one:
Must have at least one Round of 16 appearance in either the MSL or OSL OR Must have a 100% win percentage in Ace matches in Proleague OR Must currently be within 90 points of their ELO peak OR Must have a career win % of greater than 65%.
However, just like in ancient Norse mythology, there can only be 10 dragons at a time.
Did ya get these straight from anti-bisu ideals? Was it like, "Hm, whats a good career winrate limit? What's Bisu at, 64.6%? Minimum 65% then. How about ELO peak. Bisu is what, 94 points below his peak? Lets go 90 points maximum then." And seriously, 100% winrate in ace matches? A teams top ace player is gonna play quite a few matches, and the more often they are sent out the more likely it is they are gonna lose at least one game. You've got Guemchi as a dragon. Would you feel safer putting money on guemchi or bisu to win against the same opponent?
I've got money on Guemchi against Bisu. He proved it during his run to the MSL Round of 16. Guess who made it to Ro16 in the MSL and who didn't?
On January 09 2010 10:00 Roffles wrote: Proposal for Dragon Requirements: Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we have concluded that in order to qualify as a dragon, one:
Must have at least one Round of 16 appearance in either the MSL or OSL OR Must have a 100% win percentage in Ace matches in Proleague OR Must currently be within 90 points of their ELO peak OR Must have a career win % of greater than 65%.
However, just like in ancient Norse mythology, there can only be 10 dragons at a time.
Did ya get these straight from anti-bisu ideals? Was it like, "Hm, whats a good career winrate limit? What's Bisu at, 64.6%? Minimum 65% then. How about ELO peak. Bisu is what, 94 points below his peak? Lets go 90 points maximum then." And seriously, 100% winrate in ace matches? A teams top ace player is gonna play quite a few matches, and the more often they are sent out the more likely it is they are gonna lose at least one game. You've got Guemchi as a dragon. Would you feel safer putting money on guemchi or bisu to win against the same opponent?
Hey let's select certain specific criteria and form a list based on biased data based completely on arbitrary judgment.
I don't think many people honestly believe half that list of people can beat/do better than Bisu in a best of x. Even in a single match up, I'd put my money on Bisu.
I don't think Bisu is performing right now, but even in his current state, I stand by my statement.
If Guemchi is a dragon then I doubt anyone would actually want to be a dragon. Besides the dragons were only hyped because of protoss domination during the day, doesn't actually mean anything and means even less coming from you,
On January 09 2010 15:21 jalstar wrote: bisu has been incredibly inconsistent recently though
Fixed.
There's a difference. Guemchi I wouldn't ever bet on being able to win a Bo3 or Bo5 against, say, Stork or Jaedong. Bisu, however, is capable of it on a day that he plays to his best.
Bisu still plays S-class Starcraft on a good day (Bisu v Stork in proleague is an example of that). The fact that those days come less often doesn't mean Bisu's absolute skill has declined, but more that he's psychologically less capable of bringing that to the table as often as he'd like.
My elo peak is 0. It is currently 0. Ergo, I am a dragon.
Your standards are pointless. They don't take into account the number of games. If a player played 5 ace matches and won 4, I'd take them more seriously than a player who goes 1-0. The Ro16 doesn't take into account difficulty of opponents. 65% is a number you pulled out of a hat. I believe I have also shown the flaw with using percentage for rankings.
Stats not approved? Excuse me, but if anyone remembers he knocked Jangbi and Fantasy out of the MSL and would probally advance if he hadn't gotten Jaedong (Watch his KeSPA ranking move up to find up how much he improved). Maybe he haven't been wrecking in the proleague but look at his opponents. Much like Flying he hit very hard opponents like Stork (in the few appearences he had lately, he wrecked start of round 1). And if you say "why then isn't he been choosen for Proleague?" Well, he has been chosen, but other than he got alot of intime competition for a spot outside of the Ace combo (Luxury, Flash, Violet) he has competition (815/Hoejja/Firefist/Tempest/fOrGG) - each of those (save fOrGG perhaps...) would be a choise for any of the lesser ranked teams. Though I agree Guemchi haven't beaten anything other than a stupiding-decisioning-throwing-away-my-advantagineing-shuttleing-flying-withing-mying-reavering-intoing-guemchi's-dragoonsing bisu.
ROFL, OP is clearly trying to get bisu slain to generate discussion. His new standards include such loose requirements such as making ROUND OF SIXTEEN of EITHER league and winning ace matches regardless of how many were played. All of you have been trolled, epic.
doesnt make sense to judge players by the difference from their peak elo. that bisu was slaying the whole sc scene for 1-2 months and now cant keep up with this greatness can hardly be an argument against him. and why is the cutoff exactly 65% winrate? actually, none of the players listed fulfills this requirement.....
would u seriously consider guemchi, pure or stats a better player right now than bisu? additionally, losing an ace match against stork is no shame. and many of the more debatable dragons from ur list made exactly the ro16 of a SL, but nothing more. this really isnt too much of an accomplishment imho.
sry, but ur requirements not only seem arbitrary, they even seem unreasonable. the feeling i got after reading this is that u tried really hard to look as backed-up and scientific as possible when telling us how much bisu sucks in ur opinion...
On January 09 2010 17:14 Black Gun wrote: and why is the cutoff exactly 65% winrate? actually, none of the players listed fulfills this requirement.....
The point that none of the current players have the 65% winrate. Rather, its to emphasize that Bisu has NONE of the qualifications AND he doesn't have EVEN a 65% winrate to make up for it. If he were above 65%, you could at least say "well, though he failed in both leagues, and least he's still managing to beat 65% (NEARLY 2/3's of the games usually) of the players!" but you can't, and he hasn't done ANY of the other qualifications. Clearly, bisu is no longer a dragon.
This is clearly a troll topic. Bisu has the 3rd highest ELO, after only Flash and Jaedong. That makes him the highest ranked Protoss right now. And yet you have Stats, Pure, and Guemchi there? lol
I also liked how he picked career winning percentage of 65% or more, which is just .39% above Bisu right now. Which is also the highest winning percentage of any Protoss player right now (at least of the currently active Protoss players).
The OP sucks, and is designed to bash Bisu, the consistently best protoss for 3 years. The fact that you're a bad-mannered stream-host doesn't help your case either.
On January 09 2010 18:27 Demand2k wrote: The OP sucks, and is designed to bash Bisu, the consistently best protoss for 3 years. The fact that you're a bad-mannered stream-host doesn't help your case either.
Being a dragon is not for rookie imo. Stats is pretty good but he hasn't enough the experience and the reputation for being a Dragon. Pure is pretty good but unstable in PvZ and even in PvT. Guemchi is just no a dragon. If Movie win the OSL and continue to be in fire maybe we can considerate him as a dragon but for the moment I think it's a little early.
Roffles did not want to exclude Bisu from being a dragon. It's just unfortunate that Bisu didn't not meet any of the criteria that Roffles listed. Considering that 10 protoss players met that criteria, it's pretty obvious that Bisu is not an elite protoss player. If Roffles named Bisu a dragon by making a exception, it would be arbitrary and stupid. You earn the title of being a dragon by your accomplishments as a protoss player, not by the # of fans that you have.
The criteria you listed are pretty silly. Maybe next time you'll use standard ranking systems instead of inventing your own to troll the community with an anti-bisu post. Kk.
after seeing stats getting absolutely massacred by jaedong in the msl ro8, i really wonder how any sane person could think he was a better player than bisu, even when considering bisus recent underperformance....
Black Gun nobody said stats > bisu, just that stats is dragon status and bisu is not. Maybe if bisu can pick himself up and start winning again in the proleagues then he will be a dragon again. For now he has to satisfy himself with being SKT's top protoss. BiSu #1 Komodo!
I find the most hilarious statistic "within 90 elo of their all time high," which Bisu only hasn't reached because his all time is the second best and was the best for nearly a year, until Flash trounced it.
He's not qualified for dragonship, despite being #3 in Elo overall, dwarfing every protoss not named Kal and Stork? pshhhhhhhhhhh
The reason Bisu, Stork, Best, Kal, free and Jangbi were called the "Six Dragons" is because they were dominating the field back then. As of this very moment, not a single Protoss is dominating, or even comes close to doing so. This is the Flash (and maybe Zerg) era. So if you call those 10 dragons, what should we call Flash? Jesus Christ? And let's not forget a handful of zergs who are well capable of beating at least 7 out of those 10 dragons with ease.
Your list of "Ten Dragons" is actually just a list of 10 Protoss players who have been performing fairly well in the last couple of months. If you REALLY wanna call them dragons because of that very reason, by all means do so. But that's definitely not the same "dragon" we used to call the other six back then.
Now to the Bisu issue, the reason he seems so mediocre these days is because people usually compare his recent performance to what it-should-have-been. But if you consider it along the line with how other protoss are doing, he's definitely in the top 10 (according to recent performance) if not higher (sure he failed in individual leagues, but his PL's result should clearly back him up). Now if you talk about Bisu's performance OVERALL, only Stork is capable of taking his throne.
I think that the criteria you established, Roffles, are too including. I don't think that an appearance in ro16 MSL/OSL should suffice to receive the title of a Dragon. I mean, Movie is an OSL finalist, but in my opinion he still has to prove himself. If this criteria had been established in the 2009 Bacchus OSL, BackHo would have made the cut, and he, just like Stats/Guemshi/Pure are clearly not Dragon material.
I also think that the 100% ace match criteria need some rework. It should only include Protoss players who have been sent out a number of times to an Ace match. One game or to should not be enough.
Furthermore, Bisus recent slump is not enough to strip him of his title of a Dragon. Even tough I don't particularly like him the guy has like 5 individual titles. A criteria should be established that states something like "must have x individual titles with the most recent title being x months from today" so that he can be included.
I still can't believe anyone lost to Frozean. He is just awful. And then Bisu goes ahead and does it. It is like he decides before hand which days he will play like an absolute monster, and which days he will just throw the game. I hope this is just a down phase for Bisu.
Anyways, this list, its requirements, the number, etc are all pretty arbitrary. There was a time when the 6 dragons thing worked because of those players, you could always expect a tough match. Now that time is gone, and I don't see why, at all we need a new list. I mean the 6 dragon thing was cool while it lasted, but artificially forcing it now, just to try to get the feeling back - it doesn't work.
Well, us researchers have tested the model various times, obtaining the same empirical evidence as presented in the article. While yes, Bisu has been winning games, we felt as if him solely winning meaningless games in PL does not warrant classification as a dragon. He's been missing from the last two starleagues and doesn't even show the skill of other dragons in either making a deep Starleague Run and isn't even the team's Ace half the time for a reason.
The statistics are quite simple. You either make deep Starleague Runs or you show that you are consistently good lifetime (> 65% win rate) or you show that you can be your team's Ace player and bring home good results. The dragons noted in this study all meet this bare minimum whereas Bisu does not. Face it, the guy is merely a shadow of his former self.
On January 10 2010 00:04 Roffles wrote: Well, us researchers have tested the model various times, obtaining the same empirical evidence as presented in the article.
I don't know about Bisu, who knows what is going to happen to him - is he going to start playing good again or will he keep fading away - but what I do know is that Kal is just kicking butt left and right.
It's pretty easy to sniff this out as a troll via one particular ranking: 90 elo away from all time high. That number was engineered to specifically exclude Bisu, who is 94 away (so he couldn't use 95 or a more sensible 100).
It's a funny troll though that a lot of people bought. Even I kneejerked at it for a second.
On January 10 2010 00:04 Roffles wrote: Well, us researchers have tested the model various times, obtaining the same empirical evidence as presented in the article.
who is "us researchers"?
I think he meant we researchers.
And I always thought free was seen as the weakest. He's consistent and is always his team's ace, but he never gets very far.
On January 10 2010 01:46 DreaM)XeRO wrote: stats? Pure? not at all
neither of them have the aura of "badassness" that the original 6 dragons had even Kal the erstwhile "weakest" of the 6 was over 60% in his MU's
wasn't free the weakest?
like 1.bisu 2.stork 3. jangbi 4. best 5. kal 6. free
I always thought of Free as the weakest as well. Kal reached further in the starleagues than Free ever did. I suppose that Free is more consistent in the proleague than Kal.
The rank of the Dragons is really arbitrary. At one point, Best is better than Jangbi. At another point, Stork is better than Bisu. But I agree that is the correct ranking.
Another reason why some consider Kal to be the weakest is because Kal stated that he was the weakest of all 6 during Lost Saga MSL selection. Then again, he was being polite.
I bet Roffles is laughing his ass off and having a good beer in celebration of his success.
I'd replace Free with Movie. Free's proleague streak is over.
This just makes me sad to reflect on the fact that despite Protoss supposedly being the "easy" race, they have, by far, performed the worst throughout Starcraft history.
lol any decent protoss is now considered a "dragon"..?? thats kinda lame.
I really only think two protosses deserve the TOP claim.. Stork and Bisu.
Until a protoss comes out of nowhere to win an OSL or MSL, I dont think anyone really cares about a protoss unless its Stork or Bisu.. in other words, GO MOVIE!
On January 10 2010 03:45 Skyze wrote: lol any decent protoss is now considered a "dragon"..?? thats kinda lame.
I really only think two protosses deserve the TOP claim.. Stork and Bisu.
Until a protoss comes out of nowhere to win an OSL or MSL, I dont think anyone really cares about a protoss unless its Stork or Bisu.. in other words, GO MOVIE!
Bisu's not that good anymore. You can tell that his game has fallen off his peak. His PvZ is sloppy as hell these days, his PvT is questionable, and even his PvP has been tested by rookies such as Haksoo.
On January 10 2010 00:04 Roffles wrote: Well, us researchers have tested the model various times, obtaining the same empirical evidence as presented in the article. While yes, Bisu has been winning games, we felt as if him solely winning meaningless games in PL does not warrant classification as a dragon. He's been missing from the last two starleagues and doesn't even show the skill of other dragons in either making a deep Starleague Run and isn't even the team's Ace half the time for a reason.
The statistics are quite simple. You either make deep Starleague Runs or you show that you are consistently good lifetime (> 65% win rate) or you show that you can be your team's Ace player and bring home good results. The dragons noted in this study all meet this bare minimum whereas Bisu does not. Face it, the guy is merely a shadow of his former self.
wow wait a second, i thought u were just kidding with the op but apparently u are serious lol...
first of all, >65% is so high, not just for protoss players, but for every fuckin player. lets go through your list of "dragons" see how they are doing with their winning rates: - jangbi 58.16% - kal 59.27% - free 55.00% - stork 60.83% - best 60.00% - bisu 64.61% - stats 52.27% - pure 47.97% - movie 52.81% - guemchi 46.24%
hey, look at that, none of them are above 65%. the closest one is bisu, whom u claim is no longer a dragon. thats "what the fuck?" number 1 right there.
"what the fuck?" number 2 is SKT1. the team is stacked with great players and we all know this. fantasy, best, bisu, all in one team. "bisu is not his team's ace half the time" well duh its cuz they have variety. proleague is not about the individual its about the team, and having variety in the ace card is a good thing. even other good teams like KT/MBC/STX/KHAN have 2 or 3 aces (flash/violet , sea/light/hyun , calm/kal respectively , jangbi/stork) at most, the rest of the teams have just 1 (FOX with roro basically) or none (estro). besides like i pointed out before, if bisu faces stork in an ace match how could they both meet your stupid requirement of 100% ace wins. bisu is 1 - 1 as far as ace appearances go, with the one loss against stork.
what the fuck #3. ur making it seem like getting to the Ro16 of the individual leagues is an easy feat. its not. people cry when they get there (shuttle). moreover, 9 of the 10 dragons u named made it to the Ro16 but only 2 have made it to the semis (movie and kal). now regarding bisu's runs...batoo osl spring 2009 he was in the semis, this was less than a year ago. bacchus osl he gets eliminated by Zero, one of the best ZvPers and he ended up making it to the semis. this ever osl he got eliminated by Shine, another strong ZvPer who also made it to the semis (after beating stork might i add). so yeah, his runs have been unexpectedly short, but his opponents have been worthy.
hate on bisu all u want but dont try to sound smart while at it. cuz u will make a fool of yourself and theres 9 pages to prove that.
On January 10 2010 03:45 Skyze wrote: lol any decent protoss is now considered a "dragon"..?? thats kinda lame.
I really only think two protosses deserve the TOP claim.. Stork and Bisu.
Until a protoss comes out of nowhere to win an OSL or MSL, I dont think anyone really cares about a protoss unless its Stork or Bisu.. in other words, GO MOVIE!
Bisu's not that good anymore. You can tell that his game has fallen off his peak. His PvZ is sloppy as hell these days, his PvT is questionable, and even his PvP has been tested by rookies such as Haksoo.
On January 10 2010 00:04 Roffles wrote: Well, us researchers have tested the model various times, obtaining the same empirical evidence as presented in the article. While yes, Bisu has been winning games, we felt as if him solely winning meaningless games in PL does not warrant classification as a dragon. He's been missing from the last two starleagues and doesn't even show the skill of other dragons in either making a deep Starleague Run and isn't even the team's Ace half the time for a reason.
The statistics are quite simple. You either make deep Starleague Runs or you show that you are consistently good lifetime (> 65% win rate) or you show that you can be your team's Ace player and bring home good results. The dragons noted in this study all meet this bare minimum whereas Bisu does not. Face it, the guy is merely a shadow of his former self.
wow wait a second, i thought u were just kidding with the op but apparently u are serious lol...
first of all, >65% is so high, not just for protoss players, but for every fuckin player. lets go through your list of "dragons" see how they are doing with their winning rates: - jangbi 58.16% - kal 59.27% - free 55.00% - stork 60.83% - best 60.00% - bisu 64.61% - stats 52.27% - pure 47.97% - movie 52.81% - guemchi 46.24%
hey, look at that, none of them are above 65%. the closest one is bisu, whom u claim is no longer a dragon. thats "what the fuck?" number 1 right there.
"what the fuck?" number 2 is SKT1. the team is stacked with great players and we all know this. fantasy, best, bisu, all in one team. "bisu is not his team's ace half the time" well duh its cuz they have variety. proleague is not about the individual its about the team, and having variety in the ace card is a good thing. even other good teams like KT/MBC/STX/KHAN have 2 or 3 aces (flash/violet , sea/light/hyun , calm/kal respectively , jangbi/stork) at most, the rest of the teams have just 1 (FOX with roro basically) or none (estro). besides like i pointed out before, if bisu faces stork in an ace match how could they both meet your stupid requirement of 100% ace wins. bisu is 1 - 1 as far as ace appearances go, with the one loss against stork.
what the fuck #3. ur making it seem like getting to the Ro16 of the individual leagues is an easy feat. its not. people cry when they get there (shuttle). moreover, 9 of the 10 dragons u named made it to the Ro16 but only 2 have made it to the semis (movie and kal). now regarding bisu's runs...batoo osl spring 2009 he was in the semis, this was less than a year ago. bacchus osl he gets eliminated by Zero, one of the best ZvPers and he ended up making it to the semis. this ever osl he got eliminated by Shine, another strong ZvPer who also made it to the semis (after beating stork might i add). so yeah, his runs have been unexpectedly short, but his opponents have been worthy.
hate on bisu all u want but dont try to sound smart while at it. cuz u will make a fool of yourself and theres 9 pages to prove that.
lol @ arbitrary requirements to become "a dragon" lol @ so many dragons lol @ guemchi being a dragon lol @ bisu not being a dragon, yet being arguably the best protoss player around lol @ so many people taking this troll seriously
I love how everyone is so butt-hurt of how Roffles used the term dragons. They were not dragons because they changed the metagame or got divine inspirations and owned everyone, just imbalanced protoss maps to abuse. That's why they 'dominated'. Next season the maps are gone and bam, byebye protoss. The real good protoss players are the ones winning right now in an unfavorable situation, like SaviOr did.
Sure, put movie and violet in, but Guemchi, Pure and Stats aren't mechanically good and their record isn't deep enough to indicate a high enough skill level to the labeled as dragons
If Bisu doesn't meet the criteria of being a dragoon, but guemchi does, then Bisu must simply be a better unit, such as a "carrier." Note, I have no idea how the dragoon thing got started -- but perhaps you should rank the toss players by toss units (dragoon being decent).
SCIENCE will be put to the test in a matter of hours, folks. A battle to determine whether the heart or the mind is correct in this matter will be fought!
On January 10 2010 00:04 Roffles wrote: Well, us researchers have tested the model various times, obtaining the same empirical evidence as presented in the article. While yes, Bisu has been winning games, we felt as if him solely winning meaningless games in PL does not warrant classification as a dragon. He's been missing from the last two starleagues and doesn't even show the skill of other dragons in either making a deep Starleague Run and isn't even the team's Ace half the time for a reason.
The statistics are quite simple. You either make deep Starleague Runs or you show that you are consistently good lifetime (> 65% win rate) or you show that you can be your team's Ace player and bring home good results. The dragons noted in this study all meet this bare minimum whereas Bisu does not. Face it, the guy is merely a shadow of his former self.
wow wait a second, i thought u were just kidding with the op but apparently u are serious lol...
first of all, >65% is so high, not just for protoss players, but for every fuckin player. lets go through your list of "dragons" see how they are doing with their winning rates: - jangbi 58.16% - kal 59.27% - free 55.00% - stork 60.83% - best 60.00% - bisu 64.61% - stats 52.27% - pure 47.97% - movie 52.81% - guemchi 46.24%
hey, look at that, none of them are above 65%. the closest one is bisu, whom u claim is no longer a dragon. thats "what the fuck?" number 1 right there.
"what the fuck?" number 2 is SKT1. the team is stacked with great players and we all know this. fantasy, best, bisu, all in one team. "bisu is not his team's ace half the time" well duh its cuz they have variety. proleague is not about the individual its about the team, and having variety in the ace card is a good thing. even other good teams like KT/MBC/STX/KHAN have 2 or 3 aces (flash/violet , sea/light/hyun , calm/kal respectively , jangbi/stork) at most, the rest of the teams have just 1 (FOX with roro basically) or none (estro). besides like i pointed out before, if bisu faces stork in an ace match how could they both meet your stupid requirement of 100% ace wins. bisu is 1 - 1 as far as ace appearances go, with the one loss against stork.
what the fuck #3. ur making it seem like getting to the Ro16 of the individual leagues is an easy feat. its not. people cry when they get there (shuttle). moreover, 9 of the 10 dragons u named made it to the Ro16 but only 2 have made it to the semis (movie and kal). now regarding bisu's runs...batoo osl spring 2009 he was in the semis, this was less than a year ago. bacchus osl he gets eliminated by Zero, one of the best ZvPers and he ended up making it to the semis. this ever osl he got eliminated by Shine, another strong ZvPer who also made it to the semis (after beating stork might i add). so yeah, his runs have been unexpectedly short, but his opponents have been worthy.
hate on bisu all u want but dont try to sound smart while at it. cuz u will make a fool of yourself and theres 9 pages to prove that.
troll detection fail
this thread is hilarious
In what way is that a troll, and in which way does it fail?
On January 10 2010 00:04 Roffles wrote: Well, us researchers have tested the model various times, obtaining the same empirical evidence as presented in the article. While yes, Bisu has been winning games, we felt as if him solely winning meaningless games in PL does not warrant classification as a dragon. He's been missing from the last two starleagues and doesn't even show the skill of other dragons in either making a deep Starleague Run and isn't even the team's Ace half the time for a reason.
The statistics are quite simple. You either make deep Starleague Runs or you show that you are consistently good lifetime (> 65% win rate) or you show that you can be your team's Ace player and bring home good results. The dragons noted in this study all meet this bare minimum whereas Bisu does not. Face it, the guy is merely a shadow of his former self.
wow wait a second, i thought u were just kidding with the op but apparently u are serious lol...
first of all, >65% is so high, not just for protoss players, but for every fuckin player. lets go through your list of "dragons" see how they are doing with their winning rates: - jangbi 58.16% - kal 59.27% - free 55.00% - stork 60.83% - best 60.00% - bisu 64.61% - stats 52.27% - pure 47.97% - movie 52.81% - guemchi 46.24%
hey, look at that, none of them are above 65%. the closest one is bisu, whom u claim is no longer a dragon. thats "what the fuck?" number 1 right there.
"what the fuck?" number 2 is SKT1. the team is stacked with great players and we all know this. fantasy, best, bisu, all in one team. "bisu is not his team's ace half the time" well duh its cuz they have variety. proleague is not about the individual its about the team, and having variety in the ace card is a good thing. even other good teams like KT/MBC/STX/KHAN have 2 or 3 aces (flash/violet , sea/light/hyun , calm/kal respectively , jangbi/stork) at most, the rest of the teams have just 1 (FOX with roro basically) or none (estro). besides like i pointed out before, if bisu faces stork in an ace match how could they both meet your stupid requirement of 100% ace wins. bisu is 1 - 1 as far as ace appearances go, with the one loss against stork.
what the fuck #3. ur making it seem like getting to the Ro16 of the individual leagues is an easy feat. its not. people cry when they get there (shuttle). moreover, 9 of the 10 dragons u named made it to the Ro16 but only 2 have made it to the semis (movie and kal). now regarding bisu's runs...batoo osl spring 2009 he was in the semis, this was less than a year ago. bacchus osl he gets eliminated by Zero, one of the best ZvPers and he ended up making it to the semis. this ever osl he got eliminated by Shine, another strong ZvPer who also made it to the semis (after beating stork might i add). so yeah, his runs have been unexpectedly short, but his opponents have been worthy.
hate on bisu all u want but dont try to sound smart while at it. cuz u will make a fool of yourself and theres 9 pages to prove that.
troll detection fail
this thread is hilarious
In what way is that a troll, and in which way does it fail?
the thread's a troll, meant to piss off bisu fanboys by saying that at least 10 other protosses are better than him (including guemchi), while trying to make it look like the qualifications are really easy, yet tehy still exclude Bisu.
the detection fail was because these guys haven't figured it out
We foreigners have no right to change the Six Dragons. While we squabble uselessly amongst ourselves, the Koreans will never think about changing the status of the dragons.
10 dragons or 10 snake on the ground without wings? These guys aren't doing too bad, but they are not doing so great as well. During the era of 6 dragons, they were just destroying everything they touched, Starleague and Proleague. 'Six Dragons' refer to the players AND the period which they dominated. For now the current destroyers is actually 1 person and it's not even Protoss. This is the era of Flash, but he will have his own name in time.
BeSt, JangBi and free are the ones considered slain. They are either to inconsistent or considered one-matchup-wonders. Amongst the new players from Aiur I would only say that Violet is a Dragon. Movie is the one closest being a Dragon and Shuttle, GosI[Flying] , Pure, Stats are all promising but needs to show us more.
In my mind to be a dragon you have to have over 50% wins in each matchup and consistently win games in proleage and/or starleauges.
So basically, every protoss that doesn't completely suck qualifies as a dragon... Except for Bisu, who has the third highest ELO atm, but hey, he's no Guemchi!
You got to be kidding or trolling when excluding The Dragonmaster from the Dragons! Hes not been playing his best att all recently but looking back to previous year he still has 98 wins - 40 losses (71.01%)
And to break down each matchup for you vT 32 wins - 14 losses (69.57%) vZ 33 wins - 16 losses (67.35%) vP 33 wins - 10 losses (76.74%)
On January 09 2010 19:09 T.O.P. wrote: You earn the title of being a dragon by your accomplishments as a protoss player, not by the # of fans that you have.
im missing something here, dethroning savior at his peak and 3 msl titles arent considered accomplishments nowadays?
On January 09 2010 10:04 Grobyc wrote: Being a dragoon sounds too badass for Guemchi, Pure, and Stats.
Sure they may meet the requirements, but I don't think any of these 3 players were ones who jumped into peoples heads as they were going into this thread.
sorry late post, or isit just me who spotted the extra "o"
On January 11 2010 21:00 Majk wrote: You got to be kidding or trolling when excluding The Dragonmaster from the Dragons! Hes not been playing his best att all recently but looking back to previous year he still has 98 wins - 40 losses (71.01%)
And to break down each matchup for you vT 32 wins - 14 losses (69.57%) vZ 33 wins - 16 losses (67.35%) vP 33 wins - 10 losses (76.74%)
Let's break down who Bisu has beat. Let's face it - he sucks now. Last two months: 815 Win - 815 is only good at ZvZ FrOzean Loss -Bisu faces an Actually good player and loses Reach Win - win against washed up player RorO Win - RorO sucks badly (<40% against toss) Shine Win - Shine is only good in ZvZ with a few gimmick wins ZvP Stork Loss - Bisu faces an actual good player and loses TurN Win - beats a newb Hydra Win - beats a newb who sucks at ZvP Bogus Loss - faces an actual good up and comer and loses sAviOr Win - washed up GuemChi Loss - yet another loss to an actual good player hero Win - Bisu beats his only good player here GoRush Win - washed up Mind Win - washed up, mind is doing terribly against protoss lately Luxury Loss - Bisu loses to a great PvZer
Bisu's record has been great for the last two months, but only if you can't take your eyes off of the statistics. He hasn't been anyone good and basically has been newb bashing then losing to every single good player he faces. He really doesn't deserve the title of 'Dragon', it definitely takes more than just a few wins against washed up players to get this title.
Well...it's ok though. Bisu is gonna win both leagues. Oh wait, no he isn't LOL
Hehe, Frozean good player. I think the point he's been losing to bad players, not good ones xD Course Bogus cheesed and GuemChi loss was stupid, but a loss is a loss.
I don't think you can say he sucks, he just hasn't had good results. It was like when Flash had like 60% win rate last year and he was 'slumping', but no one really thought he was bad (skill wise), just slumping (result wise) :/
I don't think you can say he sucks, he just hasn't had good results. It was like when Flash had like 60% win rate last year and he was 'slumping', but no one really thought he was bad (skill wise), just slumping (result wise) :/
i dont think u can compare that.... flash last year was looking messy, like he hadnt quite found his game yet, but u could clearly see the great potential in it, despite any lacking results. bisus play during the last 2 months on the other hand was not only lacking results, it looked uninspired, burnt out and like he had completely lost himself. basically, it seems like all that keeps him winning against most scrubs is mechanics and experience.
I wouldn't call FrOzean a good player or Luxury particularly good at ZvP. I would even say Shine is a tougher opponent than many zergs atm...
As for this thread, there will never be new dragons in an age where toss is getting owned so hard. Dragon isn't a title you just assign to any good toss player.
On January 11 2010 21:00 Majk wrote: You got to be kidding or trolling when excluding The Dragonmaster from the Dragons! Hes not been playing his best att all recently but looking back to previous year he still has 98 wins - 40 losses (71.01%)
And to break down each matchup for you vT 32 wins - 14 losses (69.57%) vZ 33 wins - 16 losses (67.35%) vP 33 wins - 10 losses (76.74%)
Let's break down who Bisu has beat. Let's face it - he sucks now. Last two months: 815 Win - 815 is only good at ZvZ FrOzean Loss -Bisu faces an Actually good player and loses Reach Win - win against washed up player RorO Win - RorO sucks badly (<40% against toss) Shine Win - Shine is only good in ZvZ with a few gimmick wins ZvP Stork Loss - Bisu faces an actual good player and loses TurN Win - beats a newb Hydra Win - beats a newb who sucks at ZvP Bogus Loss - faces an actual good up and comer and loses sAviOr Win - washed up GuemChi Loss - yet another loss to an actual good player hero Win - Bisu beats his only good player here GoRush Win - washed up Mind Win - washed up, mind is doing terribly against protoss lately Luxury Loss - Bisu loses to a great PvZer
Bisu's record has been great for the last two months, but only if you can't take your eyes off of the statistics. He hasn't been anyone good and basically has been newb bashing then losing to every single good player he faces. He really doesn't deserve the title of 'Dragon', it definitely takes more than just a few wins against washed up players to get this title.
Well...it's ok though. Bisu is gonna win both leagues. Oh wait, no he isn't LOL
Hey thats pretty cool, cherry picking games like that. I wonder if its possible to do that to any other people on Roffles' troll list. Or maybe you forgot he beat Guemchi?
Nah, there is no slump, just you wait. Bisu: 7 in a row PvZ. Sure, he had his PvP streak stopped cold, but he's starting to win again. PvT, maybe not quite as impressive but still solid, including 2 wins vs Flash.
Actually, as of this writing, the six dragons are once again the 6 top Toss players on the ELO list. Weird.
Wonder which one besides those 6 is going to dominate in 2010. Movie? Violet? 3 months ago I would have picked Horang2, but boy has he slumped. Oh, and don't forget Shuttle, practically a mini-Bisu. At least in his last 10, he's got great PvZ, great PvP, and...well, 2 out of 3 MU's isn't bad. And his only PvP losses are to Bisu himself.
What I'm trying to say with my posts is that you can't look at the recent month only, the concept of a Dragon refers to a time-frame further back. Hey, what if Backho and the Rock starts to win a couple of games in a row, would that make them Dragon-worthy? I don't think so...
It's all about win% and how they actually play during a longer time-frame, that's why even if Bisu have been playing bad during 1-2 month's he's overall performance the last year is still S-class and definitely Dragon-worthy.
I don't think you can say he sucks, he just hasn't had good results. It was like when Flash had like 60% win rate last year and he was 'slumping', but no one really thought he was bad (skill wise), just slumping (result wise) :/
i dont think u can compare that.... flash last year was looking messy, like he hadnt quite found his game yet, but u could clearly see the great potential in it, despite any lacking results. bisus play during the last 2 months on the other hand was not only lacking results, it looked uninspired, burnt out and like he had completely lost himself. basically, it seems like all that keeps him winning against most scrubs is mechanics and experience.
On January 11 2010 21:00 Majk wrote: You got to be kidding or trolling when excluding The Dragonmaster from the Dragons! Hes not been playing his best att all recently but looking back to previous year he still has 98 wins - 40 losses (71.01%)
And to break down each matchup for you vT 32 wins - 14 losses (69.57%) vZ 33 wins - 16 losses (67.35%) vP 33 wins - 10 losses (76.74%)
Let's break down who Bisu has beat. Let's face it - he sucks now. Last two months: 815 Win - 815 is only good at ZvZ FrOzean Loss -Bisu faces an Actually good player and loses Reach Win - win against washed up player RorO Win - RorO sucks badly (<40% against toss) Shine Win - Shine is only good in ZvZ with a few gimmick wins ZvP Stork Loss - Bisu faces an actual good player and loses TurN Win - beats a newb Hydra Win - beats a newb who sucks at ZvP Bogus Loss - faces an actual good up and comer and loses sAviOr Win - washed up GuemChi Loss - yet another loss to an actual good player hero Win - Bisu beats his only good player here GoRush Win - washed up Mind Win - washed up, mind is doing terribly against protoss lately Luxury Loss - Bisu loses to a great PvZer
Bisu's record has been great for the last two months, but only if you can't take your eyes off of the statistics. He hasn't been anyone good and basically has been newb bashing then losing to every single good player he faces. He really doesn't deserve the title of 'Dragon', it definitely takes more than just a few wins against washed up players to get this title.
Well...it's ok though. Bisu is gonna win both leagues. Oh wait, no he isn't LOL
LOLOL Frozean is not a good player. This is the guy who went 0-12 or something like that last season in proleague. Frozean just happened to go a very strong push that Bisu had no answer to.
Turn isn't a bad player, he almost beat Bisu. His micro is astoundingly good for a new player.
Guemchi is decent, but he's not a "good" player and he's certainly not on Bisu's level.
And Luxury is not good either. He's been slumping recently and his ZvP isn't even close to being his best matchup.
On January 11 2010 21:00 Majk wrote: You got to be kidding or trolling when excluding The Dragonmaster from the Dragons! Hes not been playing his best att all recently but looking back to previous year he still has 98 wins - 40 losses (71.01%)
And to break down each matchup for you vT 32 wins - 14 losses (69.57%) vZ 33 wins - 16 losses (67.35%) vP 33 wins - 10 losses (76.74%)
Let's break down who Bisu has beat. Let's face it - he sucks now. Last two months: 815 Win - 815 is only good at ZvZ FrOzean Loss -Bisu faces an Actually good player and loses Reach Win - win against washed up player RorO Win - RorO sucks badly (<40% against toss) Shine Win - Shine is only good in ZvZ with a few gimmick wins ZvP Stork Loss - Bisu faces an actual good player and loses TurN Win - beats a newb Hydra Win - beats a newb who sucks at ZvP Bogus Loss - faces an actual good up and comer and loses sAviOr Win - washed up GuemChi Loss - yet another loss to an actual good player hero Win - Bisu beats his only good player here GoRush Win - washed up Mind Win - washed up, mind is doing terribly against protoss lately Luxury Loss - Bisu loses to a great PvZer
Bisu's record has been great for the last two months, but only if you can't take your eyes off of the statistics. He hasn't been anyone good and basically has been newb bashing then losing to every single good player he faces. He really doesn't deserve the title of 'Dragon', it definitely takes more than just a few wins against washed up players to get this title.
Well...it's ok though. Bisu is gonna win both leagues. Oh wait, no he isn't LOL
On January 11 2010 21:00 Majk wrote: You got to be kidding or trolling when excluding The Dragonmaster from the Dragons! Hes not been playing his best att all recently but looking back to previous year he still has 98 wins - 40 losses (71.01%)
And to break down each matchup for you vT 32 wins - 14 losses (69.57%) vZ 33 wins - 16 losses (67.35%) vP 33 wins - 10 losses (76.74%)
Let's break down who Bisu has beat. Let's face it - he sucks now. Last two months: 815 Win - 815 is only good at ZvZ FrOzean Loss -Bisu faces an Actually good player and loses Reach Win - win against washed up player RorO Win - RorO sucks badly (<40% against toss) Shine Win - Shine is only good in ZvZ with a few gimmick wins ZvP Stork Loss - Bisu faces an actual good player and loses TurN Win - beats a newb Hydra Win - beats a newb who sucks at ZvP Bogus Loss - faces an actual good up and comer and loses sAviOr Win - washed up GuemChi Loss - yet another loss to an actual good player hero Win - Bisu beats his only good player here GoRush Win - washed up Mind Win - washed up, mind is doing terribly against protoss lately Luxury Loss - Bisu loses to a great PvZer
Bisu's record has been great for the last two months, but only if you can't take your eyes off of the statistics. He hasn't been anyone good and basically has been newb bashing then losing to every single good player he faces. He really doesn't deserve the title of 'Dragon', it definitely takes more than just a few wins against washed up players to get this title.
Well...it's ok though. Bisu is gonna win both leagues. Oh wait, no he isn't LOL
YEAGH HE MUST BE A FUCKING NEWB COZ HE IS ONLY 62.50% between 09-11-09 and 09-12-30 AGAINST PROGAMERS.
Plues he just beat "an actual good player" Guemchi at his latest game.
Bisu was 71.01% if counting the whole 2009 year. Yeah he sucks. Are an idiot? Bisu is still one of the top protosses -_-
Seriously folks, there is no slump. 8 in a row PvZ is not luck. Bisu is outplaying them.
There has been some talk about how Bisu always plays sloppy, always has to come back from behind, repeat ad diarrheum...It's all bunk when you look at the final score. Bisu knows how to *win* even if we spectators don't think he knows how to *play*. For all we know, he slops around on purpose as a psychological tactic, to get his opponent over-confident and lead him into making mistakes. Well ok, probably not. But how can you argue with 8 in a row in one matchup, and 8 wins in his last 10 overall. That's better than any of the other dragons are doing. (though Jangbi is close)
In the ELO rankings, right between Violet/Movie and the 6 dragons is Hiya, the feared dragon slayer who just gave an encore of his Khan-Toss mashing last year. Fittingly, the lone dragon who escaped Hiya's wrath last season was Bisu, who hasn't lost to him since 2007. Ergo Bisu still deserves to be a dragon. Or at least a dragoon. Or maybe just a goon.
You know, 4 months ago, I mentioned that Bisu was playing like complete trash, not worthy of being mentioned as a dragon. Hardly anyone believed me, and dismissed me as a troll.
Shame on you guys. You guys defended Bisu with all your heart, only to watch him suffer countless losses to the hands of complete newbies he would have crushed in the past. Life must be hard as a Bisu fan.
On May 13 2010 17:56 Roffles wrote: You know, 4 months ago, I mentioned that Bisu was playing like complete trash, not worthy of being mentioned as a dragon. Hardly anyone believed me, and dismissed me as a troll.
Shame on you guys. You guys defended Bisu with all your heart, only to watch him suffer countless losses to the hands of complete newbies he would have crushed in the past. Life must be hard as a Bisu fan.
I want to tire u to this thread, pour gasoline over u and set u on fiyahhhhhhh
On May 13 2010 17:56 Roffles wrote: You know, 4 months ago, I mentioned that Bisu was playing like complete trash, not worthy of being mentioned as a dragon. Hardly anyone believed me, and dismissed me as a troll.
Shame on you guys. You guys defended Bisu with all your heart, only to watch him suffer countless losses to the hands of complete newbies he would have crushed in the past. Life must be hard as a Bisu fan.
On May 13 2010 18:17 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I love Roffles.
QFT, not only for mentioning Stats and Violet as dragons (<'3) but for "slaying" the bee-suit. He won't fall as epic as sAviOr in a final, he will just fade...
Better to fade than to be a cheater... oh wait he plays protoss.
Really I'm just jealous. At this time (in Korea) the dude'd be surrounded by hundreds of rabid fangirls, where I am relegated to watching him play computer games on youtube.
On May 13 2010 17:56 Roffles wrote: You know, 4 months ago, I mentioned that Bisu was playing like complete trash, not worthy of being mentioned as a dragon. Hardly anyone believed me, and dismissed me as a troll.
Shame on you guys. You guys defended Bisu with all your heart, only to watch him suffer countless losses to the hands of complete newbies he would have crushed in the past. Life must be hard as a Bisu fan.
On January 11 2010 21:00 Majk wrote: You got to be kidding or trolling when excluding The Dragonmaster from the Dragons! Hes not been playing his best att all recently but looking back to previous year he still has 98 wins - 40 losses (71.01%)
And to break down each matchup for you vT 32 wins - 14 losses (69.57%) vZ 33 wins - 16 losses (67.35%) vP 33 wins - 10 losses (76.74%)
Let's break down who Bisu has beat. Let's face it - he sucks now. Last two months: 815 Win - 815 is only good at ZvZ FrOzean Loss -Bisu faces an Actually good player and loses Reach Win - win against washed up player RorO Win - RorO sucks badly (<40% against toss) Shine Win - Shine is only good in ZvZ with a few gimmick wins ZvP Stork Loss - Bisu faces an actual good player and loses TurN Win - beats a newb Hydra Win - beats a newb who sucks at ZvP Bogus Loss - faces an actual good up and comer and loses sAviOr Win - washed up GuemChi Loss - yet another loss to an actual good player hero Win - Bisu beats his only good player here GoRush Win - washed up Mind Win - washed up, mind is doing terribly against protoss lately Luxury Loss - Bisu loses to a great PvZer
Bisu's record has been great for the last two months, but only if you can't take your eyes off of the statistics. He hasn't been anyone good and basically has been newb bashing then losing to every single good player he faces. He really doesn't deserve the title of 'Dragon', it definitely takes more than just a few wins against washed up players to get this title.
Well...it's ok though. Bisu is gonna win both leagues. Oh wait, no he isn't LOL
YEAGH HE MUST BE A FUCKING NEWB COZ HE IS ONLY 62.50% between 09-11-09 and 09-12-30 AGAINST PROGAMERS.
Plues he just beat "an actual good player" Guemchi at his latest game.
Bisu was 71.01% if counting the whole 2009 year. Yeah he sucks. Are an idiot? Bisu is still one of the top protosses -_-
Looks like I was right. Intelligence will always prevail over trolls in the end
On May 13 2010 20:07 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I remember the first time I came to Teamliquid forum, so many Bisu fans. 1 people say bad thing about Bisu. 100 people eat him back. Ah, the days...
If Bisu suddenly surged, and perform well for a short time. Maybe the 100 people will come back again.
I find that hard to believe, given how many anti-fans he has.
Also Roffles- the reason you're effectively in dead last in fantasy baseball is you wouldn't recognize a champion if you stared him in the face. BISU WILL BE BACK.
On May 13 2010 17:56 Roffles wrote: You know, 4 months ago, I mentioned that Bisu was playing like complete trash, not worthy of being mentioned as a dragon. Hardly anyone believed me, and dismissed me as a troll.
Shame on you guys. You guys defended Bisu with all your heart, only to watch him suffer countless losses to the hands of complete newbies he would have crushed in the past. Life must be hard as a Bisu fan.
The OP ignores the fact that the six dragons originally emerged because they were dominating in relation to the other races, zerg and terran. Today, when protoss is not as dominant, there are no dragons.
On May 14 2010 07:12 theramstoss wrote: The OP ignores the fact that the six dragons originally emerged because they were dominating in relation to the other races, zerg and terran. Today, when protoss is not as dominant, there are no dragons.
Read the thread first. This is a troll attempt by Roffle making the requirements just disqualifying bisu.
On May 13 2010 17:56 Roffles wrote: You know, 4 months ago, I mentioned that Bisu was playing like complete trash, not worthy of being mentioned as a dragon. Hardly anyone believed me, and dismissed me as a troll.
Shame on you guys. You guys defended Bisu with all your heart, only to watch him suffer countless losses to the hands of complete newbies he would have crushed in the past. Life must be hard as a Bisu fan.
It's not hard to be a Bisu fan because you operate on blind faith.
On May 13 2010 17:56 Roffles wrote: You know, 4 months ago, I mentioned that Bisu was playing like complete trash, not worthy of being mentioned as a dragon. Hardly anyone believed me, and dismissed me as a troll.
Shame on you guys. You guys defended Bisu with all your heart, only to watch him suffer countless losses to the hands of complete newbies he would have crushed in the past. Life must be hard as a Bisu fan.
It's not hard to be a Bisu fan because you operate on blind faith.
Are you saying that to be a fan of someone you have to believe them to always win? surely, just liking a player is enough to be a fan. (sure, there are some that do expect him to always win, and are fans for that reason..)
On May 13 2010 17:56 Roffles wrote: You know, 4 months ago, I mentioned that Bisu was playing like complete trash, not worthy of being mentioned as a dragon. Hardly anyone believed me, and dismissed me as a troll.
Shame on you guys. You guys defended Bisu with all your heart, only to watch him suffer countless losses to the hands of complete newbies he would have crushed in the past. Life must be hard as a Bisu fan.
It's not hard to be a Bisu fan because you operate on blind faith.
Are you saying that to be a fan of someone you have to believe them to always win? surely, just liking a player is enough to be a fan. (sure, there are some that do expect him to always win, and are fans for that reason..)
I love Bisu's control. Bisu has not been controlling things particularly well recently. I can either believe that Bisu is bad or that he will validate my faith in the next game he plays. I choose the latter without any actual substance to back me up, hence blind faith.
flash's status of a notorious dragon slayer urges us to find another mythical creature to name the protoss players, otherwise flash will just keep making them look puny.
You can't replace the dragons -.-;; and add more dragons now.
That would be like replacing the Tushin, or the Emperor, or the 3 protoss kings. They were named the dragons in their time. It would be disrespectful to the players and their previous achievement to demote them.
Just coin a new term and mark the new protoss with that. And I think you forgot the fact that every dragon besides Best has a syllable in their name that is close in pronunciation as the korean word for Dragon (Yong). That's why the 6 were named dragons.
On May 15 2010 01:20 MageKirby wrote: You can't replace the dragons -.-;; and add more dragons now.
That would be like replacing the Tushin, or the Emperor, or the 3 protoss kings. They were named the dragons in their time. It would be disrespectful to the players and their previous achievement to demote them.
Just coin a new term and mark the new protoss with that. And I think you forgot the fact that every dragon besides Best has a syllable in their name that is close in pronunciation as the korean word for Dragon (Yong). That's why the 6 were named dragons.
I can do whatever I want. Koreans coined the term 6 Dragons, Magma coined the term 6 Acorns, I coined the term 10 Dragons.
Say what you want, but I'm right and no one can deny it.
On May 15 2010 01:20 MageKirby wrote: You can't replace the dragons -.-;; and add more dragons now.
That would be like replacing the Tushin, or the Emperor, or the 3 protoss kings. They were named the dragons in their time. It would be disrespectful to the players and their previous achievement to demote them.
Just coin a new term and mark the new protoss with that. And I think you forgot the fact that every dragon besides Best has a syllable in their name that is close in pronunciation as the korean word for Dragon (Yong). That's why the 6 were named dragons.
I can do whatever I want. Koreans coined the term 6 Dragons, Magma coined the term 6 Acorns, I coined the term 10 Dragons.
Say what you want, but I'm right and no one can deny it.
No you are not, they are no dragons.... dragon age is over
On May 15 2010 01:20 MageKirby wrote: You can't replace the dragons -.-;; and add more dragons now.
That would be like replacing the Tushin, or the Emperor, or the 3 protoss kings. They were named the dragons in their time. It would be disrespectful to the players and their previous achievement to demote them.
Just coin a new term and mark the new protoss with that. And I think you forgot the fact that every dragon besides Best has a syllable in their name that is close in pronunciation as the korean word for Dragon (Yong). That's why the 6 were named dragons.
I can do whatever I want. Koreans coined the term 6 Dragons, Magma coined the term 6 Acorns, I coined the term 10 Dragons.
Say what you want, but I'm right and no one can deny it.
errrr Guemchi? slain already man. you should be at least above 50% to be a dragon.... -__- All: 59-62 (48.76%)
Oh maan you can't replace the dragons. Those six were called dragons because they performed extraordinarily well. Nowadays you have just Free an Kal doing something (maybe Pure) so you should call them Survivors or smth. No, Hero is Reach and you can't call this heroes.
On January 09 2010 10:04 Grobyc wrote: Being a dragoon sounds too badass for Guemchi, Pure, and Stats.
Sure they may meet the requirements, but I don't think any of these 3 players were ones who jumped into peoples heads as they were going into this thread.
I guess that shows how bad protoss is doing:S but maybe make the Ro16 Ro8 instead??
dont get this, isnt the the six dragons who were best after bisu's fast expansion build vs Z? arent they the guys who mastered it? shouldnt it be remembered as the six dragons. not always have 6 protosses that are doing good in leagues ATM... this just sounds stupid!
On May 18 2010 06:02 nurle wrote: dont get this, isnt the the six dragons who were best after bisu's fast expansion build vs Z? arent they the guys who mastered it? shouldnt it be remembered as the six dragons. not always have 6 protosses that are doing good in leagues ATM... this just sounds stupid!
no. there was a period inbetween where bisu was traded to SKT and absolutely SUCKED
the era of the 6 dragons coincides with his resurrection and subsequent win of the clubday MSL
As I recall, the Six Dragons were simultaneously in KeSPA's top ten and the semifinals of a Starleague - Bisu, Jangbi, Free and Kal were in an all-Protoss semifinal for the ClubDay Online MSL, and Stork and Best were in the semifinals of the Incruit OSL (alongside Fantasy and GGPlay).
This thread was trolling Bisu fans by specifying requirements that allowed all sorts of scrub Protosses to qualify as 'Dragons' but not Bisu. Don't take it too seriously.
On May 15 2010 01:20 MageKirby wrote: You can't replace the dragons -.-;; and add more dragons now.
That would be like replacing the Tushin, or the Emperor, or the 3 protoss kings. They were named the dragons in their time. It would be disrespectful to the players and their previous achievement to demote them.
Just coin a new term and mark the new protoss with that. And I think you forgot the fact that every dragon besides Best has a syllable in their name that is close in pronunciation as the korean word for Dragon (Yong). That's why the 6 were named dragons.
I can do whatever I want. Koreans coined the term 6 Dragons, Magma coined the term 6 Acorns, I coined the term 10 Dragons.
Say what you want, but I'm right and no one can deny it.
Then why dont we replace all the previous titles while we are at it. Jaedong can be the tushin. Flash can be the emperor. We can have a new set of 3 protoss kings and have your 10 dragons. Totally wont be disrespectful for Boxer, July, and other people we just replaced.
EPT
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Combat_Ex
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