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On January 10 2010 09:55 Shauni wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2010 08:59 numLoCK wrote:On January 10 2010 08:55 ketomai wrote:On January 10 2010 08:47 numLoCK wrote:On January 10 2010 08:40 ketomai wrote:On January 10 2010 08:30 numLoCK wrote:On January 10 2010 08:25 ketomai wrote:On January 10 2010 08:17 Holgerius wrote:Aware has got a point IMO; I have a hard time understanding why one would cheese in CPL. When progamers cheese in important tournaments I'm completely fine with that. Winning games is their job and there's plenty of money involved in it. This, however, is a tournament that is about improving as a SC player in a friendly, fun and still sort of competetive enviroment. I really doubt you improve very much by doing all-in builds that wins just because the opponent (me :D) is a fucking noob and fails to realize what is going on despite scouting it (I had never played against the build in my entire life).  If your opponent thought like that, then you should just 14 CC every game. Or 4 CC before rax. CPL is meant to prepare you for the cold, hard world that is out there, and unfortunately, the real world is not NR 15 min. If you want to improve ONLY your standard play, then there are your team mates for that. You shouldn't be expecting CPL matches to be practice games, where the point of the match is to improve what you want to improve, because they're not. But CPL isn't meant for builds that are "coinflip" win/lose situations either. It also isn't meant for build sniping or the like. It is meant for players to improve, and then test their improvement against other players like them. Personally, I don't want to test my improvement against someone doing a ridiculous cheese. Now, I don't know about the 9 pool -> 2 hat lurk, because its not really thaat cheesy. The build is very aggressive and depends upon dealing damage, but its no 4 pool. For me, seeing someone do that makes me think, was he really practicing that build all week? What does he gain from that, other than learning the timings of some ridiculous, oneshot build? Personally, I wouldn't do it, but its nothing to complain over. I mean ya, I could bulldog just about any D level terran player, but why would I do that in a league meant for learning and improvement? So then are you saying "improvement" does not encompass executing or adapting and stopping cheese builds? You can not be a good player if you can't stop cheese no matter how good your mechanics become. You will argue that it's an easy facet of your gameplay to fix, but if that were true, no one would lose/complain about it. Stopping cheese builds should be one of the first "tests of your improvement". The whole format is meant to be competitive as to motivate the players to improve more, and build sniping/predicting is part of the fun of this format. Viewing the CPL matches like practice games where there is no unpredictability defeats the purpose of having the proleague format. I do believe there is learning value in playing against cheese. However, I don't believe there is much learning value in doing the cheese yourself. A smart cheese against the right build can be an autowin, and nobody gains anything from this. Build sniping and the like is a part of the format, but honestly how much can you learn by studying your opponents matches or the general playstyle on the map, tailoring a build to counter it, and then practicing nothing but that build for a week? Game knowledge, learning the timings of standard BOs, and mechanics should be every player's main goals throughout practice sessions, not trying to set up a build to get an easy win. I don't know about you, but I do not spend the entire week practicing for one match. Maybe having the map I'm playing on in the match dominate, but definitely not practicing one set build to use for the match. Most of my play time is just general improvement. The match itself isn't the complete foundation of CPL. The main purpose is to improve lower level players through the coaching of a superior player. The matches every week are just motivation to keep working towards the original goal. If you are only practicing cheese builds for your upcoming matches, that really hurts you more than your opponent relative to the original goal of the CPL; however, there's nothing wrong with using cheese builds in games if you are playing for general improvement at the same time because that's a part of what you are learning on your way to becoming a better player. Ah, well that's the thing then. I just know from my team that we all either practice for our matchup or help each other practice for their matchup. It allows us to learn our build order better and learn the timings and such. Working on one build for one matchup on one map is a great way to learn all the different things that can happen. I suppose if you aren't practicing for your match then throwing a random cheese in isn't that bad, but that's not how my team operates at least. We practice solid standard play and then we show what we've learned during the match. I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but are you really implying that you guys 'improve' more from doing the defensive, most popular/standard build orders than a team who prepares aggressive builds? Whatever build you prepare, you prepare from everything between best case scenario and worst case scenario, so even if your original strategy failed you won't be unsettled for the midgame. You know what happens when you only practice on one aspect of the game? You'll be humiliated and utterly crushed in a real ladder which is unforgiving for people who can't handle so called cheese or create aggressive builds to utilize the structure of the map. Yes, grinding a single build is extremely rewarding in a PL format, no matter what build it is, but you won't become a well rounded player by just doing 'solid standard play'...
I'm not trolling ;P
Aggressive play can still be standard, imo. I try to put a distinction between "aggressive, yet standard" and "allin" and "cheese". And practicing one build doesn't mean practicing only against one build. I don't see how you could think practicing nothing but "solid, standard play" won't make you a well rounded player, unless being well rounded calls for being able to allin or cheese every so often. When I grind my build on ladders, I get cheesed or allin'd or whatever and I do learn to deal with it.
I just don't feel that its advantageous or intelligent for a player to use an allin or cheesy build in this type of league. Its not a proper clanleague, or a really prestigious tournament, its a learning league for lesser players. In a league like this, where mechanics obviously are rather weak, practicing longer, multitask/macro intensive games will help remedy that problem more than winning off 2 hat lurks or ling allins.
I never say that aggressive builds are useless, and I never demean anyone for practicing and learning aggressive builds or having an aggressive playstyle, but I find it useless to play allin strategies or to build order snipe in a league like this. However, I even say that such builds definitely can have a place in clanleagues or in Bo3's in tournies, etc.
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Shotcoder, do host the replay for added entertainment value.
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dont worry numlock if you've ever seen shauni play, all he does are bulldogs and double proxy robo pvt. He is bound to be biased and pro cheese when in fact he would get raped by anyone who can actually manage and excel at standard play.
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On January 10 2010 07:08 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2010 06:30 Pokebunny wrote:
PokeCraft vs Team Midnight
Tump > Rainmaker5
Kinky < PyroDog
dhe95 > Genericname92
Vestige > Mekhami
PokeCraft 3-1 Midnight SUP PSY SUP MAN
We decided as a team the night before to let everybody think they have a chance at being good before we crush them. So, we're in the Bahamas soaking up the sun to look badass before we head back to the States to kick ass.
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so, on a non cheese related topic... team walk it out, brace yourselves for the terror called pokecraft 
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GG guys! 
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On January 10 2010 10:35 Vestige wrote:so, on a non cheese related topic... team walk it out, brace yourselves for the terror called pokecraft
The terror of bad play? or the terror of horrible banter?
VEE VILL BURY YOU
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
TT
stop cheesing
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its not cheese its calculated agression =P
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yo aware- watch yo self son i'm comin for u `
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On January 10 2010 10:56 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2010 10:35 Vestige wrote:so, on a non cheese related topic... team walk it out, brace yourselves for the terror called pokecraft The terror of bad play? or the terror of horrible banter? VEE VILL BURY YOU
H A N A D U L S E T
P O K E C R A F T H W A I T I N G
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2-0 zvz guys watch out xD
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On January 10 2010 10:30 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2010 07:08 TheAntZ wrote:On January 10 2010 06:30 Pokebunny wrote:
PokeCraft vs Team Midnight
Tump > Rainmaker5
Kinky < PyroDog
dhe95 > Genericname92
Vestige > Mekhami
PokeCraft 3-1 Midnight SUP PSY SUP MAN We decided as a team the night before to let everybody think they have a chance at being good before we crush them. So, we're in the Bahamas soaking up the sun to look badass before we head back to the States to kick ass.
yo dawg ....
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Results for cloud9 vs The chief badasses ?
edit: seems reshedualed one of matches, guess tomorrow 
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sup noobs, we'll play legit next week
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This weeks stats sofar. Missing one matchup and one game, only official counting games noted.
7 ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Ticon_small.png) vs ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png) : 2 - 5 (29%)
7 vs ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png) : 2 - 5 (29%)
8 vs : 5 - 3 (63%)
2 vs
0 vs
2 vs
Race played :
: 18
: 15
: 21
Overal lineup win % vs other race:
50%
33%
67%
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 10 2010 13:39 banana wrote:This weeks stats sofar. Missing one matchup and one game, only official counting games noted. 7 vs : 2 - 5 (29%) 7 vs : 2 - 5 (29%) 8 vs : 5 - 3 (63%) 2 vs 0 vs 2 vs Race played : : 18 : 15 : 21 Overal lineup win % vs other race: 50% 33% 67%
I like how even at D levels, the general Z > P > T holds true.
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Whew, I'm impressed Aware-- managed to stir up that much commotion.
On January 10 2010 07:00 AwarE-- wrote:
I'm just going to point out this is a league to get better, not win against other d players at any means necessary.
Going 9hatch9pool9gas zvt into 2hatch lurker and then proceeding to do the same opening zvz on a four player map is not getting better, or attempting to learn.
It's trying to win at any means necessary which is completely worthless.
GG
First,
Please, get your facts straight. My build against Holgerius (Terran) was
9hatch, 9pool, 9 speed, mass lings, save 600 gas, --> slow lurkerdrop during double expand -->mass mutas/hive.
Now it's a tricky build to fight against but your teammate, after my lings were in his main, proceeded to throw marines at my lings without scvs, in open ground, and in PAIRS. Slowly. Now I don't know much about terran playing but that gave me 4 marine kills without losing a single zergling. He then scouted my lurker SLOW drop. But decided instead of attempting to stop it, he decided that it was better to go attack my 3rd base.
I'm not saying hatin on your Holgerius (gg btw) but I'm merely pointing out that it wasnt some ridiculous 5pool BBS proxygate that you can't stop. Also, yes I DID train that build extensively throughout the week. It's tricky to pull off slow lurker drops AFTER muta/turret timing and a mass muta attack AFTER science vessel timing. A 1 rax FE with a bunker at natural can block the initial ling attack if you just pull scvs. (As was demonstrated by my coach). Holgerius however did not pull scvs and so my lings surrounded the bunker and took it out. Such is life.
On January 10 2010 07:17 AwarE-- wrote:
In a zvz on a 4player map, it's best to play standard because of the possibility of opposite corners, I could have been cheesing just as easily as him. Therefore, it's commonly accepted that people will play the safest on those maps.
He flipped a coin and won, it's not about stopping it.
It's commonly accepted that people will play safe on that map. Obviously your base was not very safe then. Now I threw a ling to scout your position. Despite the fact i HID my lings, your scouting ling somehow managed to see me moving out of my nat. If you watch the replay, you see at LEAST 11 speed lings running towards ur base. Your response was
1. Put down spire!
2. Start making 4 lings! (the only lings you ever made other than ur scouting lings)
3. Jank around with the one sunken colony you built at the very begining of the game
Now to be fair, right when you scouted my lings leaving, you were supply blocked. But really.
You made a grand total of 4 lings for defense. You went gas before pool. You went super fast lair.
You didn't block your ramp (obviously). idk about you but i really don't consider that "safe".
You were hoping your fast mutas would kill me. You cut corners to make them as fast as possible. I chose to do the exact same thing. Cut corners, make lings, hope it kills you. You then accused me of going 12 hatch. You then accused me of going 12 pool. And then accused me of going 9 hatch. Now there aren't that many BO's in zvz but you and I seem to both agree that any build that makes enough lings to beat a sunken+4ling defense would have owned you.
You flipped a coin too. But you were too busy watching ur shiny coin to notice you were about to lose.
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Oh also,
we're team Made in KOREA.
I'm Korean.
Koreans <3 the cheese
don't hate!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/tilesets/badlands.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/tilesets/spaceplatform.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/tilesets/ashworld.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/tilesets/jungleworld.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://rlv.zcache.com/greetings_from_the_bahamas_postcard-p239496489889948118qibm_400.jpg)
take it to PM's please.
