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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On January 10 2010 12:48 banana wrote: Results for cloud9 vs The chief badasses ? edit: seems reshedualed one of matches, guess tomorrow  actually two matches, mine and treehugs, i think, unless gk came online after i i went off | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4722/aware.png) you want to watch your bm my friend (sorry i was afk, and no I don't want to re you. Yes I am dodging. Mostly cuz my zvz blows but also because I don't like you) And I said you scouted at LEAST 11 speedlings in my previous post. Just throwing that out there. If it makes you feel any better, your arrogance tells me I would probably lose against you if we both did the exact same build and made the same units at the same time with the same tech. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
 Btw, was it really necessary to ban Aware for a month? That's way over the top IMO. | ||
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Gao Xi
Hong Kong5178 Posts
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EGLzGaMeR
United States1867 Posts
On January 10 2010 16:00 Xenocide_Knight wrote: you want to watch your bm my friend (sorry i was afk, and no I don't want to re you. Yes I am dodging. Mostly cuz my zvz blows but also because I don't like you) And I said you scouted at LEAST 11 speedlings in my previous post. Just throwing that out there. If it makes you feel any better, your arrogance tells me I would probably lose against you if we both did the exact same build and made the same units at the same time with the same tech. New idra in the making?!?!  its ok though~ i really can't be upset with ppl losing to 9 hatch 9 pool 9 gas build's its pretty low eco and all-inish and i will only point people in the right direction of how to play standard and learn to OUTPLAY people. which is obviously the point of this league too help bad players learn a little about how to become better. Rather it wins CPL games or not. (which i thought was the perpose of this league) if you enter this league only wanting Wins then these kinda plays i see ppl do every week (not trying to pick on any players.. more towards the coach's *shame* ^_^ ) is exactly how you should play.. but the road to learning this game has nothing to do with proxy gate cannon rushing 9 9 9 zerg builds 4/5 pool's ect. becasue its bad. if somone was only after a rank there was a i guy from italy last season on iccup who proxy 2 center raxed every game all matchup's and he got A-.. he didnt have a game over 6 min out of all his games.. either he won or lost.. now the question remains is he good becasue he cheesed? maybe ppl have a diffrent oppenion.. maybe becasue i play this game seriously I see things diffrently .. maybe its me ^_^ | ||
AltaiR_
Korea (South)922 Posts
On January 10 2010 16:00 Xenocide_Knight wrote: you want to watch your bm my friend (sorry i was afk, and no I don't want to re you. Yes I am dodging. Mostly cuz my zvz blows but also because I don't like you) And I said you scouted at LEAST 11 speedlings in my previous post. Just throwing that out there. If it makes you feel any better, your arrogance tells me I would probably lose against you if we both did the exact same build and made the same units at the same time with the same tech. way to try to reach out to him, cant read it when he's banned lol ;o | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On January 10 2010 14:32 TheAntZ wrote: actually two matches, mine and treehugs, i think, unless gk came online after i i went off Ender did come on at the schedualed time they set, but treehugs was either afk or in a game or something.. Ender only had an hour or so and treehugs didnt come back in time so he had to go. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
I made a big post about it but since people are such idiots, they blew it off.. but basically to sum it up.. 4/5pool, BBS, or double proxy rax are the ONLY cheese builds.. NOTHING else. Cheese is not possible past 5 minutes, and cheese is anything within your first 10 supply that is basically an all-in for your economy. Everything else is fair game, so stop bitching. 9pool 9gas 9hatch or whatever he did is perfectly legit, easy to beat with proper scouting. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On January 10 2010 16:37 Lz wrote: New idra in the making?!?! its ok though~ i really can't be upset with ppl losing to 9 hatch 9 pool 9 gas build's its pretty low eco and all-inish and i will only point people in the right direction of how to play standard and learn to OUTPLAY people. which is obviously the point of this league too help bad players learn a little about how to become better. Rather it wins CPL games or not. (which i thought was the perpose of this league) if you enter this league only wanting Wins then these kinda plays i see ppl do every week (not trying to pick on any players.. more towards the coach's *shame* ^_^ ) is exactly how you should play.. but the road to learning this game has nothing to do with proxy gate cannon rushing 9 9 9 zerg builds 4/5 pool's ect. becasue its bad. if somone was only after a rank there was a i guy from italy last season on iccup who proxy 2 center raxed every game all matchup's and he got A-.. he didnt have a game over 6 min out of all his games.. either he won or lost.. now the question remains is he good becasue he cheesed? maybe ppl have a diffrent oppenion.. maybe becasue i play this game seriously I see things diffrently .. maybe its me ^_^ But I have to say Xenocide has put a lot of thought and practiced a lot. I do not consider that build as cheese and I personally hold the believe that there are 2 or 3 builds out there that are really all-in. What he is practicing is a very risky build and seeing that most of his opponents have reacted in a bad way, he has gotten little bit far with it. I applaud Xenocide for choosing a build that is not over used and is not lamely pointing towards turtling and economic power, and I also like the way he is practicing. I suggest that all the whiners stop it and just simply practice more. I think they will get little bit more far with that. I also applaud his coach. It seems to be that he is really dedicated on to teaching his team, and i hope the other coaches are motivated as well! I would point out that if Xenocide is just using this build in all his games then HE is on the bad spot because even if he wins all his games with it he is not really getting the best out of this league. Im starting to not like Aware--. This league is not for bm your opponents or being a drama queen/attention whore. The better we treat each other the better this league is so guys please keep it down ok? | ||
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alexpnd
Canada1857 Posts
As long as players do some good practice with their coaches and peers then what's the problem with cheesing in one game if the win means that much to them and the opponent gains valuable experience in deflecting all-in builds. Well we will find out next week how he does. I think his build is utter crap and is undesirable in this league. Why snipe? Is he going to snipe the rest of the D/D+ he will face in ladder? please. also. + Show Spoiler + What he is practicing is a very risky build and seeing that most of his opponents have reacted in a bad way, he has gotten little bit far with it. very risky build 2 games in the same match? interesting. | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
Pulling off speedlings into lurkdrop into mass muta/double expand require enormous multitask due to the micro reliance of the build. I analyzed the map, I decided where to drop, what to drop, where to rally my mutas, different terran building placements in main (Since I had to try to delay vessel as much as possible) and when i should prepare for a counter attack and when i should pump some drones. I practiced against bunker rushes, double proxy gates, 5pool/sunken rushes, BBS, and learned how to best react to every cheese i could think of. (I even played against a reverse sim-city bunker rush into mass valks thanks to my crazy teammates lol) More specifically, I tried my 9hatch speedling build against 2port wraith, mech, 2 rax tech, 1rax FE, 2 rax FE, 3 rax sunken break, and different bunker rushes. All of this, i tried against players better than me (coach and some kid at a LAN party i met). I also did the build against 4 random D/D+ terrans on iccup. Plus, I practice muta micro daily for 3rd part of my BO. If all that didn't make me a better zerg player, then I give up. My BO may have been cheesy, but you better believe i knew exactly what to do when any part (or parts) of my 3 stage attacks failed. Whether or not I could actually do it well enough was another matter but don't think I didn't prepare for the late game. | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
On January 10 2010 17:48 alexpnd wrote: Well we will find out next week how he does. I think his build is utter crap and is undesirable in this league. Why snipe? Is he going to snipe the rest of the D/D+ he will face in ladder? please. also. + Show Spoiler + What he is practicing is a very risky build and seeing that most of his opponents have reacted in a bad way, he has gotten little bit far with it. very risky build 2 games in the same match? interesting. Oh and dude, give me more credit than that. I also did the exact same build and won in the evaluation match against metamage1. So that makes THREE times i've used it. In a row.  | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
I bunker rushed this week, but I also played my Zerg teammates Ketomai and Kurai. They learned and helped me develop how I would deal damage if the zerg 9pooled or if they 12 hatched and even if I would put the factory down first or the bunker down first. There's a difference between cheesing every week and using it every once and awhile. like Raptor said, if he uses the build weekly to get wins then he really isn't getting everything out of the CPL experience so it isn't as strong of an overall player as someone who took a full advantage of his coaches and teammates. You can't force someone not to 4/5/6 pool every game unless the coaches don't play them but that's up to the coaches and players themselves not other teams collectively bashing them for playing the game the way they would like. So Cheese will happen in this league so practice for it, do it yourself, learn how to execute it and learn how to defend it. | ||
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alexpnd
Canada1857 Posts
On January 10 2010 17:55 Xenocide_Knight wrote: I just don't understand the whole "this league is about getting better norush15 kk" mentality. Pulling off speedlings into lurkdrop into mass muta/double expand require enormous multitask due to the micro reliance of the build. I analyzed the map, I decided where to drop, what to drop, where to rally my mutas, different terran building placements in main (Since I had to try to delay vessel as much as possible) and when i should prepare for a counter attack and when i should pump some drones. I practiced against bunker rushes, double proxy gates, 5pool/sunken rushes, BBS, and learned how to best react to every cheese i could think of. (I even played against a reverse sim-city bunker rush into mass valks thanks to my crazy teammates lol) More specifically, I tried my 9hatch speedling build against 2port wraith, mech, 2 rax tech, 1rax FE, 2 rax FE, 3 rax sunken break, and different bunker rushes. All of this, i tried against players better than me (coach and some kid at a LAN party i met). I also did the build against 4 random D/D+ terrans on iccup. Plus, I practice muta micro daily for 3rd part of my BO. If all that didn't make me a better zerg player, then I give up. My BO may have been cheesy, but you better believe i knew exactly what to do when any part (or parts) of my 3 stage attacks failed. Whether or not I could actually do it well enough was another matter but don't think I didn't prepare for the late game. I can't argue with it. I can only being to prepare all my 8rax variations. be warned. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On January 10 2010 17:16 Skyze wrote: And to the whole aware-- thing... I hate how EVERYTHING is considered cheese these days. I made a big post about it but since people are such idiots, they blew it off.. but basically to sum it up.. 4/5pool, BBS, or double proxy rax are the ONLY cheese builds.. NOTHING else. Cheese is not possible past 5 minutes, and cheese is anything within your first 10 supply that is basically an all-in for your economy. Everything else is fair game, so stop bitching. 9pool 9gas 9hatch or whatever he did is perfectly legit, easy to beat with proper scouting. Dude, the Pool isn't first: the Hatch goes down first on 9 and you make all three buildings before your first overlord. It is indeed all-in and very cheesy. Please do note that I don't have anything against Xenocide for cheesing me (I learned from the experience ), and I do not advocate some retarded NR 15 Min rule. I just personally think it sort of beats the purpose of CPL to spend a lot of your time preparing an all-in build that would almost always fail against any competent, non-retarded player. If I had just killed that overlord... I believe 100% that the best way to improve and get out of D ranks is to play straight up and learn proper builds, strategies and macro. Idra didn't become the best non-korean SC player in the world by spending his time practising BBS. To each his own I guess. | ||
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Card5harko6
United States90 Posts
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littlechava
United States7216 Posts
On January 10 2010 20:00 Card5harko6 wrote: Wtf lol! I did not expect I would be included in a screenshot... I guess I will have to watch what I say a bit closer. =D Why? You were right. | ||
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Card5harko6
United States90 Posts
Eh.... just a little awkward thats all. Also anyone from my team... team 11 that happens to read this plz go read my post in our blog. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On January 10 2010 18:57 Holgerius wrote: Dude, the Pool isn't first: the Hatch goes down first on 9 and you make all three buildings before your first overlord. It is indeed all-in and very cheesy. Please do note that I don't have anything against Xenocide for cheesing me (I learned from the experience ), and I do not advocate some retarded NR 15 Min rule. I just personally think it sort of beats the purpose of CPL to spend a lot of your time preparing an all-in build that would almost always fail against any competent, non-retarded player. If I had just killed that overlord... I believe 100% that the best way to improve and get out of D ranks is to play straight up and learn proper builds, strategies and macro. Idra didn't become the best non-korean SC player in the world by spending his time practising BBS. To each his own I guess. I didnt actually read/remember what build he was doing I just remember it was something with building 3 buildings on 9, nor do I really care. Point is, its easy as hell to defend if you just SCOUT.. As I said, anything is easy to defend except a 4/5 pool from zerg, even that isnt too hard. You should be able to stop it everytime if you scout. Idra isnt the best non-korean sc player, but to further my point of why its so friggin stupid why newbs complain about everything being cheese, look at Idra. He plays standard EVERY game, and if his opponent does ANYTHING different, Idra complains that its cheese and nerdrages. He has NO adaptability in his builds, and he is unfortunately bringing in a new wave of players in that mentality that if the opponent does anything but standard korean play, they are cheesing.. Hence you and aware--'s complaining that this guys build is cheese when it is just a normal risk/reward build that is EASY to stop.. Learn to adapt to the game, if you lose to anything different, watch the replay and learn from it. Everyone who faces this Xenocide guy from now on should know what build hes gonna do, and it should be easy to stop. And I know, its asking alot for D players to learn how to adapt in games, but the coaches need to inform them to be aware of those kind of things. The FIRST thing I taught/made sure all my players on my team knew was scouting is #1 importance, Your build should be based on what they do. Know what your enemy is doing and dont panic if you see a 9pool because its easy to defend if you just adapt your play. You dont have to go 1 rax 2 marine 12 CC everygame just because thats what Flash or whoever has been doing lately. I will state again; Anything past 4/5 pool is NOT cheese. Period. | ||
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FaCE_1
Canada6158 Posts
What the point of a league/ match if you cant cheese/rush/do funny build sometime? im my practice game, I do practice the normal build (1forge expand, sair, blabla...) but I also practice some cheese (2gate proxy, cannon rush, etc.) jsut to have this in my hand to throw that some time. I really don't understand all the drama with a "all-in" build. Someone did an all-in against me during the ACE of the evaluation match. I was piss a bit but I accept it. It the way you play. you can go standard or you may want to throw down your opponent with a proxy or all-in strategie. | ||
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