On January 10 2010 08:45 AwarE-- wrote: There's a difference between a calculated cheese and flipping a coin zvz hoping to counter someone BO-wise on a four player map.
Whatever difference there is, it doesn't matter. If you think it's wrong that the person who plays better doesn't always win, then either you've got a problem with your definition of better or you're playing the wrong game.
In the end I think it will be fun to see differences in how coaches train their pupils. If the ones that teach pure cheese end up winning then I guess we all learn something. Although I doubt it will happen.
On January 10 2010 08:45 AwarE-- wrote: There's a difference between a calculated cheese and flipping a coin zvz hoping to counter someone BO-wise on a four player map.
I really don't see why you have to keep posting about this. So you lost ZvZ to a better BO, like millions of other, better Zergs have lost in ZvZ. Big deal.
I think a large part of CPL's teaching includes how to handling losing, and how to treat practice partners and opponents. Maybe you should practice this and next week you won't whine and be annoying when you lose.
Executing a build, or cheese, or allin, or whatever you want to call it, is a lower percentage strategy. Most of the time standard play will win.
Flipping a coin and winning with a cheese strategy in a beginner's league meant for learning and improvement is a joke. It's pointless. You can go login to iccup and do it to random people all day.
On January 10 2010 08:45 AwarE-- wrote: There's a difference between a calculated cheese and flipping a coin zvz hoping to counter someone BO-wise on a four player map.
I really don't see why you have to come into the thread and argue. So you lost ZvZ to a better BO, like millions of ZvZs before. Big deal.
I think a large part of CPL's teaching includes how to handling losing, and how to treat practice partners and opponents. Maybe you should practice this and next week you won't whine and be annoying when you lose.
On January 10 2010 08:51 AwarE-- wrote: I didn't say it was wrong.
My point is that this league is about improving.
Executing a build, or cheese, or allin, or whatever you want to call it, is a lower percentage strategy. Most of the time standard play will win.
Flipping a coin and winning with a cheese strategy in a beginner's league meant for learning and improvement is a joke. It's pointless. You can go login to iccup and do it to random people all day.
Is there a rule in CPL against cheesing? If there isn't, its your fault for not preparing for it. Next time maybe you can convince your opponent to do the build you want him to do
On January 10 2010 08:17 Holgerius wrote: Aware has got a point IMO; I have a hard time understanding why one would cheese in CPL. When progamers cheese in important tournaments I'm completely fine with that. Winning games is their job and there's plenty of money involved in it. This, however, is a tournament that is about improving as a SC player in a friendly, fun and still sort of competetive enviroment. I really doubt you improve very much by doing all-in builds that wins just because the opponent (me :D) is a fucking noob and fails to realize what is going on despite scouting it (I had never played against the build in my entire life).
If your opponent thought like that, then you should just 14 CC every game. Or 4 CC before rax.
CPL is meant to prepare you for the cold, hard world that is out there, and unfortunately, the real world is not NR 15 min. If you want to improve ONLY your standard play, then there are your team mates for that. You shouldn't be expecting CPL matches to be practice games, where the point of the match is to improve what you want to improve, because they're not.
But CPL isn't meant for builds that are "coinflip" win/lose situations either. It also isn't meant for build sniping or the like. It is meant for players to improve, and then test their improvement against other players like them. Personally, I don't want to test my improvement against someone doing a ridiculous cheese. Now, I don't know about the 9 pool -> 2 hat lurk, because its not really thaat cheesy. The build is very aggressive and depends upon dealing damage, but its no 4 pool. For me, seeing someone do that makes me think, was he really practicing that build all week? What does he gain from that, other than learning the timings of some ridiculous, oneshot build? Personally, I wouldn't do it, but its nothing to complain over. I mean ya, I could bulldog just about any D level terran player, but why would I do that in a league meant for learning and improvement?
So then are you saying "improvement" does not encompass executing or adapting and stopping cheese builds? You can not be a good player if you can't stop cheese no matter how good your mechanics become. You will argue that it's an easy facet of your gameplay to fix, but if that were true, no one would lose/complain about it. Stopping cheese builds should be one of the first "tests of your improvement".
The whole format is meant to be competitive as to motivate the players to improve more, and build sniping/predicting is part of the fun of this format. Viewing the CPL matches like practice games where there is no unpredictability defeats the purpose of having the proleague format.
I do believe there is learning value in playing against cheese. However, I don't believe there is much learning value in doing the cheese yourself. A smart cheese against the right build can be an autowin, and nobody gains anything from this. Build sniping and the like is a part of the format, but honestly how much can you learn by studying your opponents matches or the general playstyle on the map, tailoring a build to counter it, and then practicing nothing but that build for a week? Game knowledge, learning the timings of standard BOs, and mechanics should be every player's main goals throughout practice sessions, not trying to set up a build to get an easy win.
I don't know about you, but I do not spend the entire week practicing for one match. Maybe having the map I'm playing on in the match dominate, but definitely not practicing one set build to use for the match. Most of my play time is just general improvement. The match itself isn't the complete foundation of CPL. The main purpose is to improve lower level players through the coaching of a superior player. The matches every week are just motivation to keep working towards the original goal. If you are only practicing cheese builds for your upcoming matches, that really hurts you more than your opponent relative to the original goal of the CPL; however, there's nothing wrong with using cheese builds in games if you are playing for general improvement at the same time because that's a part of what you are learning on your way to becoming a better player.
On January 10 2010 08:45 AwarE-- wrote: There's a difference between a calculated cheese and flipping a coin zvz hoping to counter someone BO-wise on a four player map.
I really don't see why you have to come into the thread and argue. So you lost ZvZ to a better BO, like millions of ZvZs before. Big deal.
I think a large part of CPL's teaching includes how to handling losing, and how to treat practice partners and opponents. Maybe you should practice this and next week you won't whine and be annoying when you lose.
English classes. Take them.
Your english hasn't exactly been spectacular. Not good enough to bash other people's command of the language.
On January 10 2010 08:17 Holgerius wrote: Aware has got a point IMO; I have a hard time understanding why one would cheese in CPL. When progamers cheese in important tournaments I'm completely fine with that. Winning games is their job and there's plenty of money involved in it. This, however, is a tournament that is about improving as a SC player in a friendly, fun and still sort of competetive enviroment. I really doubt you improve very much by doing all-in builds that wins just because the opponent (me :D) is a fucking noob and fails to realize what is going on despite scouting it (I had never played against the build in my entire life).
If your opponent thought like that, then you should just 14 CC every game. Or 4 CC before rax.
CPL is meant to prepare you for the cold, hard world that is out there, and unfortunately, the real world is not NR 15 min. If you want to improve ONLY your standard play, then there are your team mates for that. You shouldn't be expecting CPL matches to be practice games, where the point of the match is to improve what you want to improve, because they're not.
But CPL isn't meant for builds that are "coinflip" win/lose situations either. It also isn't meant for build sniping or the like. It is meant for players to improve, and then test their improvement against other players like them. Personally, I don't want to test my improvement against someone doing a ridiculous cheese. Now, I don't know about the 9 pool -> 2 hat lurk, because its not really thaat cheesy. The build is very aggressive and depends upon dealing damage, but its no 4 pool. For me, seeing someone do that makes me think, was he really practicing that build all week? What does he gain from that, other than learning the timings of some ridiculous, oneshot build? Personally, I wouldn't do it, but its nothing to complain over. I mean ya, I could bulldog just about any D level terran player, but why would I do that in a league meant for learning and improvement?
So then are you saying "improvement" does not encompass executing or adapting and stopping cheese builds? You can not be a good player if you can't stop cheese no matter how good your mechanics become. You will argue that it's an easy facet of your gameplay to fix, but if that were true, no one would lose/complain about it. Stopping cheese builds should be one of the first "tests of your improvement".
The whole format is meant to be competitive as to motivate the players to improve more, and build sniping/predicting is part of the fun of this format. Viewing the CPL matches like practice games where there is no unpredictability defeats the purpose of having the proleague format.
I do believe there is learning value in playing against cheese. However, I don't believe there is much learning value in doing the cheese yourself. A smart cheese against the right build can be an autowin, and nobody gains anything from this. Build sniping and the like is a part of the format, but honestly how much can you learn by studying your opponents matches or the general playstyle on the map, tailoring a build to counter it, and then practicing nothing but that build for a week? Game knowledge, learning the timings of standard BOs, and mechanics should be every player's main goals throughout practice sessions, not trying to set up a build to get an easy win.
Sure all valid but finding out what kind of cheeses or early aggression works is equally valuable in getting wins. You don't have to tailor it to your opponent just as they don't have to tailor standard play to suit your own style. Also it's just one game in the long run and you're not learning as much from the actual game that matters compared to all the practice you do in between. Someone might be practicing all week but feel that their superior opponent is still going to win so they cheese in the actual game to help their team out and keep their morale and motivation high.
As long as players do some good practice with their coaches and peers then what's the problem with cheesing in one game if the win means that much to them and the opponent gains valuable experience in deflecting all-in builds.
On January 10 2010 08:45 AwarE-- wrote: There's a difference between a calculated cheese and flipping a coin zvz hoping to counter someone BO-wise on a four player map.
I really don't see why you have to come into the thread and argue. So you lost ZvZ to a better BO, like millions of ZvZs before. Big deal.
I think a large part of CPL's teaching includes how to handling losing, and how to treat practice partners and opponents. Maybe you should practice this and next week you won't whine and be annoying when you lose.
English classes. Take them.
Your english hasn't exactly been spectacular. Not good enough to bash other people's command of the language.
English***
go suck shines dick some more you silly faggot lmao
On January 10 2010 08:45 AwarE-- wrote: There's a difference between a calculated cheese and flipping a coin zvz hoping to counter someone BO-wise on a four player map.
I really don't see why you have to come into the thread and argue. So you lost ZvZ to a better BO, like millions of ZvZs before. Big deal.
I think a large part of CPL's teaching includes how to handling losing, and how to treat practice partners and opponents. Maybe you should practice this and next week you won't whine and be annoying when you lose.
English classes. Take them.
Your english hasn't exactly been spectacular. Not good enough to bash other people's command of the language.
English***
go suck shines dick some more you silly faggot lmao
lol you know someone just got banned for dumb personal attacks right?
On January 10 2010 08:17 Holgerius wrote: Aware has got a point IMO; I have a hard time understanding why one would cheese in CPL. When progamers cheese in important tournaments I'm completely fine with that. Winning games is their job and there's plenty of money involved in it. This, however, is a tournament that is about improving as a SC player in a friendly, fun and still sort of competetive enviroment. I really doubt you improve very much by doing all-in builds that wins just because the opponent (me :D) is a fucking noob and fails to realize what is going on despite scouting it (I had never played against the build in my entire life).
If your opponent thought like that, then you should just 14 CC every game. Or 4 CC before rax.
CPL is meant to prepare you for the cold, hard world that is out there, and unfortunately, the real world is not NR 15 min. If you want to improve ONLY your standard play, then there are your team mates for that. You shouldn't be expecting CPL matches to be practice games, where the point of the match is to improve what you want to improve, because they're not.
But CPL isn't meant for builds that are "coinflip" win/lose situations either. It also isn't meant for build sniping or the like. It is meant for players to improve, and then test their improvement against other players like them. Personally, I don't want to test my improvement against someone doing a ridiculous cheese. Now, I don't know about the 9 pool -> 2 hat lurk, because its not really thaat cheesy. The build is very aggressive and depends upon dealing damage, but its no 4 pool. For me, seeing someone do that makes me think, was he really practicing that build all week? What does he gain from that, other than learning the timings of some ridiculous, oneshot build? Personally, I wouldn't do it, but its nothing to complain over. I mean ya, I could bulldog just about any D level terran player, but why would I do that in a league meant for learning and improvement?
So then are you saying "improvement" does not encompass executing or adapting and stopping cheese builds? You can not be a good player if you can't stop cheese no matter how good your mechanics become. You will argue that it's an easy facet of your gameplay to fix, but if that were true, no one would lose/complain about it. Stopping cheese builds should be one of the first "tests of your improvement".
The whole format is meant to be competitive as to motivate the players to improve more, and build sniping/predicting is part of the fun of this format. Viewing the CPL matches like practice games where there is no unpredictability defeats the purpose of having the proleague format.
I do believe there is learning value in playing against cheese. However, I don't believe there is much learning value in doing the cheese yourself. A smart cheese against the right build can be an autowin, and nobody gains anything from this. Build sniping and the like is a part of the format, but honestly how much can you learn by studying your opponents matches or the general playstyle on the map, tailoring a build to counter it, and then practicing nothing but that build for a week? Game knowledge, learning the timings of standard BOs, and mechanics should be every player's main goals throughout practice sessions, not trying to set up a build to get an easy win.
I don't know about you, but I do not spend the entire week practicing for one match. Maybe having the map I'm playing on in the match dominate, but definitely not practicing one set build to use for the match. Most of my play time is just general improvement. The match itself isn't the complete foundation of CPL. The main purpose is to improve lower level players through the coaching of a superior player. The matches every week are just motivation to keep working towards the original goal. If you are only practicing cheese builds for your upcoming matches, that really hurts you more than your opponent relative to the original goal of the CPL; however, there's nothing wrong with using cheese builds in games if you are playing for general improvement at the same time because that's a part of what you are learning on your way to becoming a better player.
Ah, well that's the thing then. I just know from my team that we all either practice for our matchup or help each other practice for their matchup. It allows us to learn our build order better and learn the timings and such. Working on one build for one matchup on one map is a great way to learn all the different things that can happen. I suppose if you aren't practicing for your match then throwing a random cheese in isn't that bad, but that's not how my team operates at least. We practice solid standard play and then we show what we've learned during the match.
On January 10 2010 08:45 AwarE-- wrote: There's a difference between a calculated cheese and flipping a coin zvz hoping to counter someone BO-wise on a four player map.
I really don't see why you have to come into the thread and argue. So you lost ZvZ to a better BO, like millions of ZvZs before. Big deal.
I think a large part of CPL's teaching includes how to handling losing, and how to treat practice partners and opponents. Maybe you should practice this and next week you won't whine and be annoying when you lose.
English classes. Take them.
Your english hasn't exactly been spectacular. Not good enough to bash other people's command of the language.
English***
go suck shines dick some more you silly faggot lmao
<3 shine
edit : also, descriptive grammar gives me a license to slaughter the english language however I want. I'll be carving it up like it's a hog wearing slippers.
Wow. I'd just like to say GG and thanks for the game tonight ladie. It was fun. I lost but had fun doing it so I don't understand why that certain person is complaining so much.
So what. You got cheesed it doesn't matter man just enjoy the game and the oppurtunity you've been given to play in the CPL. It's not as if you won't go and ladder now and never get cheesed. The ladder is full of cheesers but it's part of starcraft. Just learn to have fun playing and improving.
On January 10 2010 08:45 AwarE-- wrote: There's a difference between a calculated cheese and flipping a coin zvz hoping to counter someone BO-wise on a four player map.
I really don't see why you have to come into the thread and argue. So you lost ZvZ to a better BO, like millions of ZvZs before. Big deal.
I think a large part of CPL's teaching includes how to handling losing, and how to treat practice partners and opponents. Maybe you should practice this and next week you won't whine and be annoying when you lose.
English classes. Take them.
Your english hasn't exactly been spectacular. Not good enough to bash other people's command of the language.
English***
go suck shines dick some more you silly faggot lmao
User was banned for this post.
My teammate has succumbed to the dark side. A moment of silence in his honor.
I admit I cheesed but I also tried to emulate a much deeper build that was inspired by Canata against Jaedong on Outsider.
Here's the game
and I'd also like to point out I also studied a game he played Jaedong in later and used the same build and was demolished
and here's that game
Just because it's cheese doesn't mean it requires less skill or practice or precision to pull off. It's a mental game that you use to win and if your opponent isn't fully prepared it works, if they are you lose big time. But that's why we're in this league so we can be prepared for any and all circumstances.
On January 10 2010 09:17 Shotcoder wrote: I admit I cheesed but I also tried to emulate a much deeper build that was inspired by Canata against Jaedong on Outsider.
Just because it's cheese doesn't mean it requires less skill or practice or precision to pull off. It's a mental game that you use to win and if your opponent isn't fully prepared it works, if they are you lose big time. But that's why we're in this league so we can be prepared for any and all circumstances.
xD that was my first season(or maybe my second before I even understood TvP in the slightest). funny shit though. kinda surprising I made it to a forum post with typical dt rush raging though.
On January 10 2010 08:17 Holgerius wrote: Aware has got a point IMO; I have a hard time understanding why one would cheese in CPL. When progamers cheese in important tournaments I'm completely fine with that. Winning games is their job and there's plenty of money involved in it. This, however, is a tournament that is about improving as a SC player in a friendly, fun and still sort of competetive enviroment. I really doubt you improve very much by doing all-in builds that wins just because the opponent (me :D) is a fucking noob and fails to realize what is going on despite scouting it (I had never played against the build in my entire life).
If your opponent thought like that, then you should just 14 CC every game. Or 4 CC before rax.
CPL is meant to prepare you for the cold, hard world that is out there, and unfortunately, the real world is not NR 15 min. If you want to improve ONLY your standard play, then there are your team mates for that. You shouldn't be expecting CPL matches to be practice games, where the point of the match is to improve what you want to improve, because they're not.
But CPL isn't meant for builds that are "coinflip" win/lose situations either. It also isn't meant for build sniping or the like. It is meant for players to improve, and then test their improvement against other players like them. Personally, I don't want to test my improvement against someone doing a ridiculous cheese. Now, I don't know about the 9 pool -> 2 hat lurk, because its not really thaat cheesy. The build is very aggressive and depends upon dealing damage, but its no 4 pool. For me, seeing someone do that makes me think, was he really practicing that build all week? What does he gain from that, other than learning the timings of some ridiculous, oneshot build? Personally, I wouldn't do it, but its nothing to complain over. I mean ya, I could bulldog just about any D level terran player, but why would I do that in a league meant for learning and improvement?
So then are you saying "improvement" does not encompass executing or adapting and stopping cheese builds? You can not be a good player if you can't stop cheese no matter how good your mechanics become. You will argue that it's an easy facet of your gameplay to fix, but if that were true, no one would lose/complain about it. Stopping cheese builds should be one of the first "tests of your improvement".
The whole format is meant to be competitive as to motivate the players to improve more, and build sniping/predicting is part of the fun of this format. Viewing the CPL matches like practice games where there is no unpredictability defeats the purpose of having the proleague format.
I do believe there is learning value in playing against cheese. However, I don't believe there is much learning value in doing the cheese yourself. A smart cheese against the right build can be an autowin, and nobody gains anything from this. Build sniping and the like is a part of the format, but honestly how much can you learn by studying your opponents matches or the general playstyle on the map, tailoring a build to counter it, and then practicing nothing but that build for a week? Game knowledge, learning the timings of standard BOs, and mechanics should be every player's main goals throughout practice sessions, not trying to set up a build to get an easy win.
I don't know about you, but I do not spend the entire week practicing for one match. Maybe having the map I'm playing on in the match dominate, but definitely not practicing one set build to use for the match. Most of my play time is just general improvement. The match itself isn't the complete foundation of CPL. The main purpose is to improve lower level players through the coaching of a superior player. The matches every week are just motivation to keep working towards the original goal. If you are only practicing cheese builds for your upcoming matches, that really hurts you more than your opponent relative to the original goal of the CPL; however, there's nothing wrong with using cheese builds in games if you are playing for general improvement at the same time because that's a part of what you are learning on your way to becoming a better player.
Ah, well that's the thing then. I just know from my team that we all either practice for our matchup or help each other practice for their matchup. It allows us to learn our build order better and learn the timings and such. Working on one build for one matchup on one map is a great way to learn all the different things that can happen. I suppose if you aren't practicing for your match then throwing a random cheese in isn't that bad, but that's not how my team operates at least. We practice solid standard play and then we show what we've learned during the match.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but are you really implying that you guys 'improve' more from doing the defensive, most popular/standard build orders than a team who prepares aggressive builds? Whatever build you prepare, you prepare from everything between best case scenario and worst case scenario (there are no hardcounters to cheese, especially not on D level), so even if your original strategy failed you won't be unsettled for the midgame. You know what happens when you only practice on one aspect of the game? You'll be humiliated and utterly crushed in a real ladder which is unforgiving for people who can't handle so called cheese or create aggressive builds to utilize the structure of the map. Yes, grinding a single build is extremely rewarding in a PL format, no matter what build it is, but you won't become a well rounded player by just doing 'solid standard play'...
EPT
