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Asymmetric Maps?

Forum Index > BW General
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Un Gato
Profile Joined July 2009
United States123 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-28 06:53:31
November 28 2009 06:49 GMT
#1
First, I apologize if this is in the incorrect forum, I haven't used them much on this site and am thus unfamiliar with the exact layout.

Regardless, having watched professional Starcraft for over a year now (and played quite badly for much longer than that) I am wondering whether there have been any attempts to make maps that are not completely or nearly symmetrical. If they could be properly balanced I would see the following advantages:
1) Adding variety to mirror matchups by forcing some differences to expansion. Given the distressing frequency of mirror matchups this season I'm ready to support anything that would make them more interesting.
2) Allowing terrain and resource position to take a competing role in map balance, perhaps having an uphill map but giving the low ground base a better resource supply.
3) Forcing strategy adaptation based not just on scouting the opponent, but on the relative strengths of the spawn point as well. This would force a greater number of strategies to be practiced per map to prepare for several different positions.

The problem, of course, is balancing the maps. Mirror matchups would no longer be automatically balanced, and there would be even more difficulties in non mirror matches. If this has been actually attempted before and found to be unfeasible then it makes sense to have dropped the idea, but if it was considering impossible on spec I think it would be reasonable to take another look at it. I doubt that given all we've learned about Starcraft it would be out of the realm of possibility to make a single asymmetric map that balances properly.

Also, this is entirely unrelated, but I think it would be cool to have a main with minerals double-deep, with the main mineral line blocking (by mineral proximity) a second mineral line several map squares into a box canyon or something similar. It would leave expansions just as necessary to maintain a proper resource stream, but would delay mining out the main significantly. Diagram below: m = minerals, --- and | = wall, v v = gas, M = Hatchery/CC/Nexus, ... = filler, the post compresses extra whitespace
-----m-----...........v v
|m...........m
|m...........m......M
|m...........m
-----m---------m....m
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
FirstBorn
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Romania3955 Posts
November 28 2009 06:53 GMT
#2
Yes, Fantasy and Fantasy II we're tried a few seasons ago. Map sucked imo, most MU's being a complete tossup.
SonuvBob: Yes, the majority of TL is college-aged, and thus clearly stupid.
blabber
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4448 Posts
November 28 2009 06:53 GMT
#3
Fantasy II comes to mind
also Baekmagoji has the double mineral line you're talking about
blabberrrrr
Un Gato
Profile Joined July 2009
United States123 Posts
November 28 2009 07:38 GMT
#4
Good god, Fantasy II is one ugly map. It nearly looks randomly generated.

And Baekmagoji doesn't quite have what I was talking about. My plan was to put the second mineral line further in so that it would be more vulnerable to harassment, and far enough that a zerg would build a second hatchery to be closer and a Terran would move the command center.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
blabber
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4448 Posts
November 28 2009 08:03 GMT
#5
haha so the story behind Fantasy II is that it's a mix of 4 different maps:
Xeno Sky, Ride of Valkyries, Sin Gaema Gowon, and Nostalgia

I was actually under the assumption that Fantasy II worked well as a map
blabberrrrr
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66358 Posts
November 28 2009 08:08 GMT
#6
dunno why everyone bashes on Fantasy, it's such a great map
POGGERS
Un Gato
Profile Joined July 2009
United States123 Posts
November 28 2009 08:10 GMT
#7
Hmmm...looking back through the map database it seems the baseline for map balance is lower than I thought. Only ten of the thirty seven maps played by progamers with any frequency since the start of the year (Holy World, Holy World SE, Byzantium 2, Python, Nostalgia, Tau Cross, Outsider, Andromeda, Colosseum II, and Heartbreak Ridge) have less than a 20 point spread for all 3 of the matchups, and the first three of those have hardly any games.

On a side note, why are forty one maps listed as having been played under the TLPD Maps index, but four of them show no games? Are they added when they are introduced, not when they are first played?
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43598 Posts
November 28 2009 08:12 GMT
#8
On November 28 2009 17:08 konadora wrote:
dunno why everyone bashes on Fantasy, it's such a great map

At the very least it was part of one of the best starleagues.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
jhNz
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Germany2762 Posts
November 28 2009 09:16 GMT
#9
i really liked fanatasy. the only problem was the top left postion. it was so easy to defend, especially for terran. that was my impression at least...
http://twitter.com/jhNz
Un Gato
Profile Joined July 2009
United States123 Posts
November 28 2009 09:22 GMT
#10
Terran got slaughtered on that map according to the stats, so I don't think that's correct.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
November 28 2009 10:55 GMT
#11
fantasy II is kinda cool
ProoM
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Lithuania1741 Posts
November 28 2009 11:00 GMT
#12
Most of the maps aren't perfectly symmetric, even if they look so. For example, in ZvP on Destination I always preffer the bottom expansion because you can fill 3rd base gap with evo chamber/hydra den, not the extra sunken/spore. Anyway, it's pretty hard for progamers to prepare gameplans for mirror maps, so imagine the insanity of preparations on the ones you are offering. Like if theres 4 spawning locations, they would have to prepare 24 different gameplans o.0 (4!=4*3*2*1=24).
IMBA - International Mountain Bicycling Association.
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
November 28 2009 11:10 GMT
#13
On November 28 2009 18:16 jhNz wrote:
i really liked fanatasy. the only problem was the top left postion. it was so easy to defend, especially for terran. that was my impression at least...


Nostalgia main is better imo, Xenosky main is kinda vulnerable to drops
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
gaizka
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States991 Posts
November 28 2009 11:20 GMT
#14
I love fantasy II
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
November 28 2009 11:48 GMT
#15
I really liked Fantasy II. I wished there were a few more maps like it (maybe one out of every ten new maps).
Brood War loyalist
Dantak
Profile Joined January 2006
Czech Republic648 Posts
November 28 2009 11:50 GMT
#16
Lost Temple_Gamei

Good ol' times with pushing 12 gas with siege tanks from below
"Life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery." - f33red k0r34n z3rg
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
November 28 2009 11:54 GMT
#17
some months ago i hated the idea of having position imbalances

but now ive realized that most maps r imbalanced in mu however it doesnt change the fact that top gamers still manage to make the maps look in favor of the statisticly disfavored map, like flash on katrina for example ^^

id love if they made a new asymmetric map but not too imbalanced xd
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
Starparty
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Sweden1963 Posts
November 28 2009 13:00 GMT
#18
[image loading]


It was the pre version to Götterdämmerung. Is this what you meant by in base expansion?
The artist formerly known as Starparty
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
November 28 2009 13:09 GMT
#19
Haha, I think most of you are too new (read: not a dinosaur like me ) to remember Alchemist. What a godawful map, but it did have a couple really cool games on it, believe it or not.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
Mortician
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Bulgaria2332 Posts
November 28 2009 14:13 GMT
#20
On November 28 2009 22:09 EvilTeletubby wrote:
Haha, I think most of you are too new (read: not a dinosaur like me ) to remember Alchemist. What a godawful map, but it did have a couple really cool games on it, believe it or not.


I remember this! ZvP was fun ^^
"If anything, the skill cap in sc2 is higher [than sc1] because there are a lot more things you can do at one given time. " darmousseh
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