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First, I apologize if this is in the incorrect forum, I haven't used them much on this site and am thus unfamiliar with the exact layout.
Regardless, having watched professional Starcraft for over a year now (and played quite badly for much longer than that) I am wondering whether there have been any attempts to make maps that are not completely or nearly symmetrical. If they could be properly balanced I would see the following advantages:
1) Adding variety to mirror matchups by forcing some differences to expansion. Given the distressing frequency of mirror matchups this season I'm ready to support anything that would make them more interesting.
2) Allowing terrain and resource position to take a competing role in map balance, perhaps having an uphill map but giving the low ground base a better resource supply.
3) Forcing strategy adaptation based not just on scouting the opponent, but on the relative strengths of the spawn point as well. This would force a greater number of strategies to be practiced per map to prepare for several different positions.
The problem, of course, is balancing the maps. Mirror matchups would no longer be automatically balanced, and there would be even more difficulties in non mirror matches. If this has been actually attempted before and found to be unfeasible then it makes sense to have dropped the idea, but if it was considering impossible on spec I think it would be reasonable to take another look at it. I doubt that given all we've learned about Starcraft it would be out of the realm of possibility to make a single asymmetric map that balances properly.
Also, this is entirely unrelated, but I think it would be cool to have a main with minerals double-deep, with the main mineral line blocking (by mineral proximity) a second mineral line several map squares into a box canyon or something similar. It would leave expansions just as necessary to maintain a proper resource stream, but would delay mining out the main significantly. Diagram below: m = minerals, --- and | = wall, v v = gas, M = Hatchery/CC/Nexus, ... = filler, the post compresses extra whitespace
-----m-----...........v v
|m...........m
|m...........m......M
|m...........m
-----m---------m....m
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Yes, Fantasy and Fantasy II we're tried a few seasons ago. Map sucked imo, most MU's being a complete tossup.
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Good god, Fantasy II is one ugly map. It nearly looks randomly generated.
And Baekmagoji doesn't quite have what I was talking about. My plan was to put the second mineral line further in so that it would be more vulnerable to harassment, and far enough that a zerg would build a second hatchery to be closer and a Terran would move the command center.
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
dunno why everyone bashes on Fantasy, it's such a great map
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Hmmm...looking back through the map database it seems the baseline for map balance is lower than I thought. Only ten of the thirty seven maps played by progamers with any frequency since the start of the year (Holy World, Holy World SE, Byzantium 2, Python, Nostalgia, Tau Cross, Outsider, Andromeda, Colosseum II, and Heartbreak Ridge) have less than a 20 point spread for all 3 of the matchups, and the first three of those have hardly any games.
On a side note, why are forty one maps listed as having been played under the TLPD Maps index, but four of them show no games? Are they added when they are introduced, not when they are first played?
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United States43938 Posts
On November 28 2009 17:08 konadora wrote:
dunno why everyone bashes on Fantasy, it's such a great map
At the very least it was part of one of the best starleagues.
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Germany2762 Posts
i really liked fanatasy. the only problem was the top left postion. it was so easy to defend, especially for terran. that was my impression at least...
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Terran got slaughtered on that map according to the stats, so I don't think that's correct.
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Most of the maps aren't perfectly symmetric, even if they look so. For example, in ZvP on Destination I always preffer the bottom expansion because you can fill 3rd base gap with evo chamber/hydra den, not the extra sunken/spore. Anyway, it's pretty hard for progamers to prepare gameplans for mirror maps, so imagine the insanity of preparations on the ones you are offering. Like if theres 4 spawning locations, they would have to prepare 24 different gameplans o.0 (4!=4*3*2*1=24).
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On November 28 2009 18:16 jhNz wrote:
i really liked fanatasy. the only problem was the top left postion. it was so easy to defend, especially for terran. that was my impression at least...
Nostalgia main is better imo, Xenosky main is kinda vulnerable to drops
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I really liked Fantasy II. I wished there were a few more maps like it (maybe one out of every ten new maps).
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some months ago i hated the idea of having position imbalances
but now ive realized that most maps r imbalanced in mu however it doesnt change the fact that top gamers still manage to make the maps look in favor of the statisticly disfavored map, like flash on katrina for example ^^
id love if they made a new asymmetric map but not too imbalanced xd
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It was the pre version to Götterdämmerung. Is this what you meant by in base expansion?
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Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
Haha, I think most of you are too new (read: not a dinosaur like me  ) to remember Alchemist. What a godawful map, but it did have a couple really cool games on it, believe it or not.
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On November 28 2009 22:09 EvilTeletubby wrote:Haha, I think most of you are too new (read: not a dinosaur like me ) to remember Alchemist. What a godawful map, but it did have a couple really cool games on it, believe it or not.
I remember this! ZvP was fun ^^
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On November 28 2009 20:00 ProoM wrote:
Like if theres 4 spawning locations, they would have to prepare 24 different gameplans o.0 (4!=4*3*2*1=24).
Only if you are playing a FFA with 3 other players and need to tailor your gameplan to where each of you spawn.
In a regular 1v1, you can spawn in one of four location, your opponent must be in one of three. 4*3=12
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On November 28 2009 22:00 Starparty wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It was the pre version to Götterdämmerung. Is this what you meant by in base expansion?
No, but that is pretty cool. It's similar (and possibly better) but my plan was to simply have a layer of minerals further away into a canyon that would, with the first mineral line, leave about one space too little for a CC/Hatchery/Nexus to be placed due to resource proximity.
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Match Point![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/235_Match%20Point.jpg)
Notice how the ramps in the middle have different facings. Alot of maps have little things like this that arent just differences in gas location. And 3 player maps pretty much always have some asymmetricity since the map isnt a triangle, like on outsider the land between north and south is different shaped than the other 2 land strips between starts.
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17057 Posts
On November 28 2009 22:00 Starparty wrote:It was the pre version to Götterdämmerung. Is this what you meant by in base expansion?
I remember this :D
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fantasy is a fine map, it just kinda sucks that certain spawns just kinda countered others in specific MUs
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
On November 29 2009 07:36 JohannesH wrote:Match Point Notice how the ramps in the middle have different facings. Alot of maps have little things like this that arent just differences in gas location. And 3 player maps pretty much always have some asymmetricity since the map isnt a triangle, like on outsider the land between north and south is different shaped than the other 2 land strips between starts.
I was complaining a lot about this map because despite a reverse ramp being available, the map maker just didn't use it. Meh.
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A lot of maps have positional imbalances in mirror matchups. Its not that rare.
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On December 20 2009 12:45 MuffinDude wrote:
A lot of maps have positional imbalances in mirror matchups. Its not that rare.
In fact, in 3+ player maps that have rotational symmetry, it is hard to avoid positional advantages in mirror matchups.
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On November 28 2009 17:03 blabber wrote:haha so the story behind Fantasy II is that it's a mix of 4 different maps: Xeno Sky, Ride of Valkyries, Sin Gaema Gowon, and NostalgiaI was actually under the assumption that Fantasy II worked well as a map
it WAS a good map. well.. given the circumstances
it was definitely experimental
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51586 Posts
On November 28 2009 22:09 EvilTeletubby wrote:Haha, I think most of you are too new (read: not a dinosaur like me ) to remember Alchemist. What a godawful map, but it did have a couple really cool games on it, believe it or not.
 Max vs  TheMarine pl finals comes to mind
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10387 Posts
Alchemist looks like a nightmare for all match ups..
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
On December 20 2009 12:51 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 22:09 EvilTeletubby wrote:Haha, I think most of you are too new (read: not a dinosaur like me ) to remember Alchemist. What a godawful map, but it did have a couple really cool games on it, believe it or not. Max vs TheMarine pl finals comes to mind
only July's game come to my mind
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On November 28 2009 22:00 Starparty wrote:It was the pre version to Götterdämmerung. Is this what you meant by in base expansion?
This map looks hella cool. Is there a download link somewhere?
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Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
On December 20 2009 12:51 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 22:09 EvilTeletubby wrote:Haha, I think most of you are too new (read: not a dinosaur like me ) to remember Alchemist. What a godawful map, but it did have a couple really cool games on it, believe it or not. Max vs TheMarine pl finals comes to mind
Well Duuuuuuuuuh GTR. 
srsly, best game played on that map, hands down. The July games were awesome too. ^_^
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Tau Cross is slightly asymmretic
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luna wasnt really asymmetric but 11 oclock was a shitty base
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On December 20 2009 23:07 29 fps wrote:
luna wasnt really asymmetric but 11 oclock was a shitty base
It's good that they fixed the 11 o'clock base in v 2.3 used recently in the old stars tournament. Hope ICCup updates it.
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Is there any ways I can download the new proleague maps?
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On November 28 2009 20:00 ProoM wrote:
Anyway, it's pretty hard for progamers to prepare gameplans for mirror maps, so imagine the insanity of preparations on the ones you are offering. Like if theres 4 spawning locations, they would have to prepare 24 different gameplans o.0 (4!=4*3*2*1=24).
12 really: 4 (where you spawn) * 3 (where the other spawns) = 12
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On December 22 2009 07:32 Inzek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 20:00 ProoM wrote:
Anyway, it's pretty hard for progamers to prepare gameplans for mirror maps, so imagine the insanity of preparations on the ones you are offering. Like if theres 4 spawning locations, they would have to prepare 24 different gameplans o.0 (4!=4*3*2*1=24). 12 really: 4 (where you spawn) * 3 (where the other spawns) = 12
Well that's entirely reasonable. Even if you consider three possible races they might be facing ಠ_ಠ
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On December 22 2009 04:50 SCWarkos wrote:
Is there any ways I can download the new proleague maps?
Download the ICCup map pack, it has all of the current updated proleague maps and also many classic maps.
www.iccup.com
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Storm(n).jpg)
