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United States4991 Posts
On November 28 2009 11:56 Manit0u wrote:
Micro AI is really nice. But what about all the rest?
I remember my AI battles in WC3 and the biggest problem I had, was even if I managed to get awesome build orders (and AI actually following it like it should) I had absolutely no influenco on where/how the buildings were placed.
For example, if your strategy required some towers to be built on the perimeter, AI would put them randomly in center of the base etc.
Building placement is very important. I don't even mean wall-in or stuff like that, but just look how much depends on it: unit pathing and distance they need to travel to waypoints, flanking options, defence etc. etc.
I guess with Zerg most of the problems go away, but still sunken placements can mean difference between winning and losing.
You can control where bulidings are placed. Take a look at the functions implemented in BWSAL: http://code.google.com/p/bwsal/wiki/BuildingPlacer
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On November 27 2009 18:37 TryThis wrote:
this is jsut artful, i cant stop watching it.
isnt bisu stuck playing these things? im excited to see his face when this happens to him
It will of course be interesting to see "strategy" and "perfect micro" clash, but I always assumed this would be where the TL team would shine: They actually know how to play starcraft.
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35k+ apm lol....
well there you have it.
Terran imba 
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On November 28 2009 11:03 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 07:42 flx! wrote:On November 28 2009 07:32 bp1696 wrote:Wow, this is really awesome. Will computer be able to beat the pros one day soon? Reminds me of Deep Blue and chess  . Honestly, by the end of the AIIDE contest, the AIs will beat anyone on the 4 maps in the pool. The difficulty of AI programming is rarely making something that beats humans (it was with chess and still is with Go), it's giving the user the impression of playing against a human, who makes mistakes like him. It's all about creating an enjoyable experience. That's really hard. Also if you limit the APM of the AI to something reasonable, like 1000, then all the problem is about making choices and decisions, and that is also quite hard. I dont believe that for a second... Yes, the AIs can micro air units and ground units on open ground well, and macro, but hows the strategical aspect, target prioritizing, army positioning, risk assessment, terrain, filling out missing info etc etc done?
Indeed those are the hard parts in AI programming.
Afaik theres no existing examples of computers doing extraordinarily well on a limited information game. So to me its ridiculous to say its a given that AI will destroy everyone in 2010, you dont have any solid backing for that atm. It might happen, some matchup on some map, but surely its not easy...
Well FPSs are limited information games, and non-cheating bot still rape humans on it.
I think you underestimate the importance of mechanics in games such as these. If your mechanics are just ridiculously good, you only need to avoid making really stupid mistakes in order to beat a human. Yes mechanics in FPSs are much more important relatively to tactics and strategies than in RTSs, still, I believe a half witted bot with crazy micro/macro and even just random decision making (within reasonable choices) will beat most people. No doubt as people play against those bots, flaws will appear to be exploited and maybe difficult to fix, but I doubt it.
Also, Texas Hold'Em poker is example, perhaps more interesting, where bots are currently slightly better than pros. The mechanics of poker are very low (knowing probabilities) and it's all about learning, and figuring out your opponents.
check this out if you're interested:
http://www.wired.com/special_multimedia/2008/ff_poker_1612
http://poker.cs.ualberta.ca/
So basically I believe that, if people care enough to create it, it's a given that Starcraft AI bots will rape any human on those maps.
Now creating a bot that also figures out any maps, that may be a bit harder.
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neither zerg nor terran are imba. protoss has scouts!
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10387 Posts
Can you play these AIs over online? Should test these out against some human opponents
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I'd love to see that muta vs scourge micro perfected... but seeing video makes me wonder more about why you can't stack the muta AI?
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kinda pointless to have ai like that
now if the ai microed like a human would and does it perfectly, that'd be something
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On November 29 2009 08:04 meeple wrote:
I'd love to see that muta vs scourge micro perfected... but seeing video makes me wonder more about why you can't stack the muta AI?
I think with micro like that it's more effective for them not to be stacked, at least vs Archons
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On November 29 2009 08:21 Menoma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 08:04 meeple wrote:
I'd love to see that muta vs scourge micro perfected... but seeing video makes me wonder more about why you can't stack the muta AI? I think with micro like that it's more effective for them not to be stacked, at least vs Archons
I meant for the scourge, so they could one-hit them
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Wow that is just so cool to watch.
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On November 29 2009 08:22 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 08:21 Menoma wrote:On November 29 2009 08:04 meeple wrote:
I'd love to see that muta vs scourge micro perfected... but seeing video makes me wonder more about why you can't stack the muta AI? I think with micro like that it's more effective for them not to be stacked, at least vs Archons I meant for the scourge, so they could one-hit them
i guess he has a different object for each mutalisk and they all acting as individuals at the moment.
Maybe later he'd create a "team" object where he groups say 3 mutas together and treat all of those as a unit
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not only would the AI have 'almost' perfect muta micro, it would be simultaneously macroing every single resource it gets and expoing to assure map control. that is very impressive, however AI has always been made very methodically with set answers to certain situations and not really with a freeform ability to think independently.
another example of good AI in a RTS game was Sins of a Solar empire. if you gave them time to set up an infrastructure without cheesing them, they seemed to utterly outplay humans because of being able to execute far more commands in a short period of time than a human possibly could.
i am definitely looking forward to future AI that doesn't exclusively rely on perfect mechanics to outmuscle a human opponent but rather incorporate strategy to beat us.
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On November 29 2009 08:04 meeple wrote:
I'd love to see that muta vs scourge micro perfected...
Who says it hasn't been? =O
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On November 29 2009 10:17 AssuredVacancy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 08:04 meeple wrote:
I'd love to see that muta vs scourge micro perfected... Who says it hasn't been? =O
You did:
On November 27 2009 14:33 AssuredVacancy wrote:
The anti scourage micro still needs a bit of work though.
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Definitely not even close to true... if there were bots that were better than pros then why arent there bots playing NL1K online and making their owners millions of dollars?
EDIT: Didn't realize this was for limit Hold em....
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On November 29 2009 10:21 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 10:17 AssuredVacancy wrote:On November 29 2009 08:04 meeple wrote:
I'd love to see that muta vs scourge micro perfected... Who says it hasn't been? =O You did: Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 14:33 AssuredVacancy wrote:
The anti scourage micro still needs a bit of work though.
Did a lot to improve the AI. But being really good means that I'll have to keep the video private so the competition doesn't see it in action. I'll release vids/reps when they become outdated though. Although I do think that forum vets should be allowed to the stuff we're working on because so much of it is amazingly cool.
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On November 27 2009 14:36 Count9 wrote:
Not much macro with 35k apm tbh. Not very impressive against auto attacking archons, should try against a human... or make a archon micro and see who wins :/
Ummmm what difference would it make? It's clearly based on distance to archon, distance that muta can shoot, distance of archons projectile...human micro, computer micro, makes no difference at all.
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Sweden33723 Posts
So, so awesome :D
I'm terrified to be honest, but still can't wait to see the final product.
EDIT: Btw the Poker bot thing, it should be pointed out that it's for Limit Hold'em Heads-Up specifically.
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Cant you just make a "unitgroup" in the code that sends the exact same orders to several units.
This should allow mutas to stack. Basicly this would make the computer calculate the moves it makes as one supermuta and execute them with al?
Btw im quite interested in this AI programming contest, is there any further information ?
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EPT
