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(Almost) perfect muta micro - Page 10

Forum Index > BW General
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quiong
Profile Joined January 2008
United States268 Posts
November 27 2009 22:42 GMT
#181
On November 28 2009 07:35 We Are Here wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2009 07:32 bp1696 wrote:
Wow, this is really awesome.

Will computer be able to beat the pros one day soon? Reminds me of Deep Blue and chess .
no thanks, having a computer play better than the best human players destroys the game imo


I don't see chess as being a "destroyed" game despite a wide range of AIs. Even a middle of the road AI that a normal consumer computer processor can run is easily capable of destroying the majority of human players. But I would still rather play chess with another person rather than with a computer. Same for tournaments.
Ecrilon
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
501 Posts
November 27 2009 23:12 GMT
#182
Maybe a team of Jaedong, Effort, Calm, Luxury, Yellow, Kwanro, Hyuk, Zero, Hero and July, each controlling one mutalisk, could replicate that result. And I guess also get something like 4,000 apm.
There is but one truth.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
November 27 2009 23:18 GMT
#183
On November 28 2009 07:42 quiong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2009 07:35 We Are Here wrote:
On November 28 2009 07:32 bp1696 wrote:
Wow, this is really awesome.

Will computer be able to beat the pros one day soon? Reminds me of Deep Blue and chess .
no thanks, having a computer play better than the best human players destroys the game imo


I don't see chess as being a "destroyed" game despite a wide range of AIs. Even a middle of the road AI that a normal consumer computer processor can run is easily capable of destroying the majority of human players. But I would still rather play chess with another person rather than with a computer. Same for tournaments.

In either game that person could be cheating by using an AI though. Of course with SC, it'd be wayyyy more obvious.
Administrator
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
November 27 2009 23:54 GMT
#184
Stupid question but why put wraiths against unupgraded hydras? Show off the AI a bit? The Dragoon micro is crazy though, I'd like to see more like that where the AI shows off against bad or more even odds and destroys the other units.
AssuredVacancy
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1167 Posts
November 27 2009 23:56 GMT
#185
On November 28 2009 08:54 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Stupid question but why put wraiths against unupgraded hydras? Show off the AI a bit? The Dragoon micro is crazy though, I'd like to see more like that where the AI shows off against bad or more even odds and destroys the other units.


To have an advantage while microing against range upgraded hydras I need to stack the wraiths. And so far I have not found a way to do that yet.
We spend our youth attaining wealth, and our wealth attaining youth.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 28 2009 00:03 GMT
#186
On November 28 2009 07:39 zergnewb wrote:
@TheYango: Well isn't the reason mutas are stacked in the first place are to kill marines fast which unstacked mutas wouldn't really be able to do unless like just enough mutas to kill a marine target a single one which still won't work because without the stacking mutas are easier to hit. That is unless the mutas don't target a single marine all at once but close to the same time which still doesn't work too well since it makes it easier on the medic to heal the marine. ALTHOUGH it still isn't bad because it makes it much easier for mutas to work around marines and harass several spots.

It's sort of a tradeoff. A muta stack hitting single marine makes the most real gain in an engagement (since any injured marines can get healed), but it also wastes damage, because often your stack is large enough to do more damage (which is why with a large stack, hold position get's used, so some of the damage gets spread around). If each muta is getting controlled individually, then damage will be put on every marine, because they're attacking from a wide angle. The medics simply can't keep up with the damage being dished out, because they have to travel back and forth to heal damaged marines (whereas with concentrated fire, they only need to heal the same 2-3 marines). Obviously, this also means that this takes longer for the marine force as a whole to die, and they will therefore put out more damage before dying, but with the AI's micro, putting out a significant amount of damage could be difficult.
Moderator
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
November 28 2009 00:05 GMT
#187
On November 28 2009 08:18 SonuvBob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2009 07:42 quiong wrote:
On November 28 2009 07:35 We Are Here wrote:
On November 28 2009 07:32 bp1696 wrote:
Wow, this is really awesome.

Will computer be able to beat the pros one day soon? Reminds me of Deep Blue and chess .
no thanks, having a computer play better than the best human players destroys the game imo


I don't see chess as being a "destroyed" game despite a wide range of AIs. Even a middle of the road AI that a normal consumer computer processor can run is easily capable of destroying the majority of human players. But I would still rather play chess with another person rather than with a computer. Same for tournaments.

In either game that person could be cheating by using an AI though. Of course with SC, it'd be wayyyy more obvious.



Yeah, the ICC is pretty good about detecting hackers by monitoring your currently level of play. If you suddenly start playing a lot better they're going to know you're abusing computers. The same could be done with Starcraft in theory.
XinRan
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States530 Posts
November 28 2009 00:08 GMT
#188
If unit groupings don't exist in Starcraft programming, how does the game handle hotkeyed control groups?
"To be fair, Kal played like absolute garbage. His noted inconsistency and bad record versus Jaedong high fived into a cacophony of suck." - TwoToneTerran
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-28 00:31:13
November 28 2009 00:31 GMT
#189
Hey guys, look! Another team managed to make a full game Terran AI! It seriously looks like it could beat C players on iccup... just watch.

ModeratorGood content always wins.
Catyoul *
Profile Joined April 2004
France2377 Posts
November 28 2009 00:48 GMT
#190
On November 28 2009 09:08 XinRan wrote:
If unit groupings don't exist in Starcraft programming, how does the game handle hotkeyed control groups?

It's not that it doesn't exist in starcraft, it's just that the BWAPI doesn't hook into it and provide us interface functions to use them.

On November 27 2009 14:43 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Yeah I don't think the team will bust my balls for this because I took off all the debugging markers before filming, so this just reveals very very cool micro rather than anything important.

Well, you know my opinion. I prefer we don't make this kind of videos public, but it's no big deal for this kind of stuff. I know it's a great feeling to show them and to have your work recognized. It's somewhat hard emotionally to keep them private, I'm really fighting hard to keep mine under wraps honestly :D But I still will, at least for now. Maybe in a couple of weeks/months when they'll be outdated.
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
November 28 2009 01:04 GMT
#191
On November 28 2009 09:31 motbob wrote:
Hey guys, look! Another team managed to make a full game Terran AI! It seriously looks like it could beat C players on iccup... just watch.

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm0fZ3-Ek1s


lol I WANNA BUILD LIKE THAT
Writer
Count9
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China10928 Posts
November 28 2009 01:05 GMT
#192
On November 28 2009 09:31 motbob wrote:
Hey guys, look! Another team managed to make a full game Terran AI! It seriously looks like it could beat C players on iccup... just watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm0fZ3-Ek1s

Don't think I learned this build =(
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
November 28 2009 01:15 GMT
#193
TL team gonna rape this contest lololol.
They don't stand a chance.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
SonuvBob
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Aiur21549 Posts
November 28 2009 01:23 GMT
#194
On November 28 2009 09:31 motbob wrote:
Hey guys, look! Another team managed to make a full game Terran AI! It seriously looks like it could beat C players on iccup... just watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm0fZ3-Ek1s

Building placement test I guess.
Administrator
AssuredVacancy
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1167 Posts
November 28 2009 01:34 GMT
#195
What I don't understand is why did it have 2 idle scvs.
We spend our youth attaining wealth, and our wealth attaining youth.
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
November 28 2009 02:03 GMT
#196
On November 28 2009 07:42 flx! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2009 07:32 bp1696 wrote:
Wow, this is really awesome.

Will computer be able to beat the pros one day soon? Reminds me of Deep Blue and chess .

Honestly, by the end of the AIIDE contest, the AIs will beat anyone on the 4 maps in the pool.
The difficulty of AI programming is rarely making something that beats humans (it was with chess and still is with Go), it's giving the user the impression of playing against a human, who makes mistakes like him. It's all about creating an enjoyable experience. That's really hard.
Also if you limit the APM of the AI to something reasonable, like 1000, then all the problem is about making choices and decisions, and that is also quite hard.

I dont believe that for a second... Yes, the AIs can micro air units and ground units on open ground well, and macro, but hows the strategical aspect, target prioritizing, army positioning, risk assessment, terrain, filling out missing info etc etc done?

Afaik theres no existing examples of computers doing extraordinarily well on a limited information game. So to me its ridiculous to say its a given that AI will destroy everyone in 2010, you dont have any solid backing for that atm. It might happen, some matchup on some map, but surely its not easy...
If you have to ask, you don't know.
Mobius
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1268 Posts
November 28 2009 02:34 GMT
#197
haha "almost as good as efforts"
Entusman #51
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
November 28 2009 02:50 GMT
#198
Damn some of this stuff is so impressive
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17238 Posts
November 28 2009 02:56 GMT
#199
Micro AI is really nice. But what about all the rest?
I remember my AI battles in WC3 and the biggest problem I had, was even if I managed to get awesome build orders (and AI actually following it like it should) I had absolutely no influenco on where/how the buildings were placed.
For example, if your strategy required some towers to be built on the perimeter, AI would put them randomly in center of the base etc.
Building placement is very important. I don't even mean wall-in or stuff like that, but just look how much depends on it: unit pathing and distance they need to travel to waypoints, flanking options, defence etc. etc.
I guess with Zerg most of the problems go away, but still sunken placements can mean difference between winning and losing.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Not_Computer
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada2277 Posts
November 28 2009 03:01 GMT
#200
omgwtfbbq this is seriously amazing
47k+ APM for the first vid!
"Jaedong hyung better be ready. I'm going to order the most expensive dinner in Korea."
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