- A 'poor' map compared to normal maps due to expansions having only 4~5 mineral fields - Many paths leads to many possible expo-harassing opportunities - Entire high-ground has been tileset-by-tileset edited such that even units with 4-5 range can harass all expansions - Entire map's mineral fields are worth 1200, geysers are all worth 3000 (except for main (5000) and nat (1000))
- Entire low ground is unbuildable except near expansions (and their ramps) - Fastest rush route is high ground, however if that route is unfavorable (opponent holding line, etc) then the player can make a detour (Similar to Blue Storm) - Taking high grounds will be key to controlling the map (similar to Blue Storm) - Choke near main is wallable with 1 rax 1 depot - Mineral field (16 minerals value) to help with walling
Tileset: Twilight Size: 128 x 128 Positions: 4, 8, 12
- 2 routes to taking another expansion after nat; one that goes through middle (large ramp) and one that doesn't (small ramp) - Taking hold of middle of map (high ground) is key to controlling the map as it allows easy harass on all the expansions
- The many bridges are key to controlling the map - 2 bridges near nat, similar to Destination and Nostalgia - Easy-to-take 2nd gas expo, with an alternate route to get out of base to middle of map - Center of map is unbuildable
- Used concept and layout of 'Guillotine' - All areas are low ground - Close mineral expos, can be blocked with 2 gateways or rax - Alternate route can be opened by mining 2x 40 mineral patches
- Close ramp to starting position, gas expansion in-base, small base size - Wide nat choke - Large area to build additional buildings at nat area - Due to design of main, 1-base play (while expanding in-base) is possible, leading to possible new various strategies - Main's ramp is hard to do a wall - All geysers other than main and expo are worth 2000
- Split path after nat, leading to two attack routes - Easy-to-take 2nd gas expansion, macro-orientated map - All geysers other than main is worth 3000 - Center 'tornado-shaped' areas are unbuildable
- Long path from nat (other than bridge) that leads to second gas expansion and an alternate route - Easy-to-harass nat (for air units due to wall) - Easy-to-defend 2nd gas expansion - Close nat-to-nat distance, leading to many possible early-game-orientated strategies
Asgard could be really bad for pvz or some z matchups due to the really low gas, but I guess we'll see how the balance works out.
Acro is one of my favorite maps just by looking at it. It's a similar concept to god's garden but with balance concessions (you can't hold 3 gas off 1 choke, there are mineral only's and islands making it much harder to split the map in pvt), no cliffs either.
Judgement day looks great for 2v2.... or just a recolored arcadia. Match point would be a nice change, different tileset from most of the recent maps. Roadrunner is just a 4 player desti.
I like all these maps, except for Judgement Day. I don't think it's aesthetically pleasing and I think non-terran players are going to have nightmares of tanks blasting their stuff from behind the thin walls around everything but the mains. I can tell I don't like it already. Actually, they all seem somewhat terran-favored except for Silver Sky.
Asgard 2 paths to expand is not good for PvZ, dunno why they still doing this after fail of Tears of The Moon. Also it seems that it's easy to contain Protoss in TvP. So, not good map for Protoss...
Matchpoint This map reminds me of Blue Storm. It seems that Terran will have advantage on this map because of 2 bases on each side are under cliff and it's hard to defend them versus tanks. This makes map imba for Terran a little
Moon Glaive 2 paths to expand and cliff near it... It's mix of Tears Of The Moon and ROTK that makes this map so bad for Protoss both PvZ and PvT...
Roadrunner O my god, they rebuilt Destination and made it for 4 players ;D Seems rather balanced and funny map. Easy to take expansions and there is a place for strategical moves. Seems like my favourite map of this map pool.
Judgement Day Seems like remake of one old map (forgot its name). Mineral and gas expansions should be replaced and it will be nice macro map.
Acro Another macro Andromeda-like map. Mineral and gas expansions should be replaced like in previous map and it will be nice.
Tornado Very standart GodsGarden-like map. One thing is I dont like cliffs near the expansions because it makes Terran to contain Protoss easily.
Silver Sky Another standart GodsGarden-like map. Nothing special on it. As for me i dont like 4players map with 3 mineral lines on each side. And also they all have gas that makes map a Zerg imba a little.
Lol, Judgement Day looks so much like Guillotine. But overall they look pretty good. Hopefully we see less zergs around, which would make me completely happy.
Maps look a lot better than your standard boring macro maps.
lol.. these maps seem much more macro-heavy than last season's, with all those bases
I liked how last season there were a lot of conceptually exciting and strategical maps that were made. Seems like the pendulum has swung back to the macro maps though..
Judgment day is impossible pvz no way can toss secure his natural with just 2 cannons. Probably have to settle for min only which blows the whole point of fe.
Seems slightly terran friendly as flanking distance is sort of long in some map.
On August 28 2009 15:04 Hyperionnn wrote: Is it me or all of these maps are unplayable for protoss and they are terran favored?
Asgard and Match Point look really cool, I think the overall quality of these maps is really great and I can't wait to see some games played on them.
I could see them going with a terran-favored map pool because it's been a while since the individual leagues have really seen much Terran success, but people seem to say every map is Terran imba the first time they see it so I'm going to reserve judgement until I actually see some games played.
On August 28 2009 15:04 Hyperionnn wrote: Is it me or all of these maps are unplayable for protoss and they are terran favored?
That's what I thought, but before that I actually want to test them out. These maps look bloody awesome, I can't wait for the season to start, maps look interesting as!
I especially like asgard its looks Really good map with low ecomony, i think this map will provied some ggs with sexy micro and alot of entertainment for th viewers ) its Actually remind me Tears of the Moon (what a great map btw) cant wait to see Jaedong stop BoxeR 4goliath drop
On August 28 2009 15:53 Dgtl wrote: Man, when toss fell they fell hard. These maps don't look to help that either.
Lets all prepare for a year of terran and T v something in most finals. Flash, now's your chance to get some titles!
I really had a hard time adjusting to swarm season I actually loved Zerg players struggling between Protoss and Terran players, so only the true top Zerg players can shine.
DOWN WITH SWARM SEASON BRING BACK PROTOSS/TERRAN AGE
On August 28 2009 15:53 Dgtl wrote: Man, when toss fell they fell hard. These maps don't look to help that either.
Lets all prepare for a year of terran and T v something in most finals. Flash, now's your chance to get some titles!
I really had a hard time adjusting to swarm season I actually loved Zerg players struggling between Protoss and Terran players, so only the true top Zerg players can shine.
DOWN WITH SWARM SEASON BRING BACK PROTOSS/TERRAN AGE
i actually kinda want a terran age nada / flash FTW! GOGOGO
dude ... those maps look so fucking awesome !!! oh man this season cant wait for the start of a new season . wow . The only issue is that they look extremely Terran favourite . all those narrow chokes and shit . But we will see about that when the first games gonna be played Especially Match Point , its just epic
Whats up with third gas being so hard to defend. Moreover, Acro doesnt even have a Gas natural. All the maps, except the first and the last two are gonna be Zerg massacre
It seems to me that this maps was used before just didn't make it into the official maps and maybe they are reusing it with small corrections. To bad there isn's a picture of the old map. There is also a map named Isaac Newton which also never saw the daylight
On the subject, i think most of the maps will turn with unexpected balance (medusa anyone?) and Match Point and Silver Sky looks really cool
On August 28 2009 17:02 Mortician wrote: Whats up with third gas being so hard to defend. Moreover, Acro doesnt even have a Gas natural. All the maps, except the first and the last two are gonna be Zerg massacre
what? yes it does, the gas natural is "in the back", only the base in the front has no gas. I actually think zerg will do pretty good on that map.
Anyways, here's to hoping those maps will be relatively balanced... I already don't like judgement day.
On August 28 2009 14:37 Weasel- wrote: I like all these maps, except for Judgement Day. I don't think it's aesthetically pleasing and I think non-terran players are going to have nightmares of tanks blasting their stuff from behind the thin walls around everything but the mains. I can tell I don't like it already. Actually, they all seem somewhat terran-favored except for Silver Sky.
Actually i think roadrunner will b a nightmare for terran terran will have to control the large centers, but just like on destination, any movement of the terran push (which looks like itll b hard bc idk if u can build on those road tiles) will b stoped by bridges. And itll b an arbiter playground with statis locking up narrow chokes, hell carriers may even b used on this one seeing as goliaths will have to walk AROUND to get to the carriers.
Also looking at point makes me say one thing for pvt. 12 nexus. I just dont see why you wouldnt when ur natural is on highground with just a narrow ramp and choke to defend it
asgard will b interesting not sure how thatll end up as for judgement day and moon glaive, yeah terran maps, especially moon, bc u dont need to buy drop ships to abuse the high ground with tanks on that map, and thats just ridiculous. Acro and tornado will b interesting bc they seem to promote shuttle play. Especially acro, with all of the island expansion only reachable and harrasable by shuttle, we will a protoss playground pvt, except for the case of fantasy who has been waiting for a map like this. Tornado has a huge center, but idk ab the sides of the map, so its also a tossup, but i can see lots of shuttle play on it
On August 28 2009 18:09 nobodyhome246 wrote: has anyone noticed that match point is 112x128? i wasn't even aware that 112 was a valid dimension. i thought it went 64, 98, 128, 192, 256
I take every whine about map imba with a grain of salt. In fact to be honest I just ignore them. Remember when Battle Royal was first announced and everyone was like LOL IT'S THE NEW TROY ZERG IS GONNA GET RAPED ON THAT MAP?
I already see Terrans and Toss crying if they spawn on top position. Other start positions are hard to do muta harras on mins but on top its like PLEASE MUTA COME AND KILL MY SVC.
On August 28 2009 18:33 writer22816 wrote: I take every whine about map imba with a grain of salt. In fact to be honest I just ignore them. Remember when Battle Royal was first announced and everyone was like LOL IT'S THE NEW TROY ZERG IS GONNA GET RAPED ON THAT MAP?
haha no actually I don't remember that, I guess we'll have to wait and see then.
On August 28 2009 18:33 538 wrote: All of these maps are surely going to make it? In my opinion:
Asgard - looks great.
Match Point - looks ugly and boring
Moon Glaive - Strange (trying to replace TotM?)
Roadrunner - Ugly and plain, what year is this, 2002?
Judgement Day - Ugly and plain, what year is this, 2002?
Acro - Strangely ugly, and the symmetry just increases the feeling that not much effort was put into it.
Tornado - What is this? Foreign mapmaking community contest 3rd place?
Silver Sky - meh
Wow really great analysis. I totally agree, map makers should have like ponies and hearts in the middle so the maps look pretty and less ugly. Might affect the gameplay but that's not that important.
I already see Terrans and Toss crying if they spawn on top position. Other start positions are hard to do muta harras on mins but on top its like PLEASE MUTA COME AND KILL MY SVC.
hr yeah muta harass will be much more effective on 12 o clock, while on 4 o clock it'll be least effective
This is the least excited I've been about a new map batch in a long time. :/ They all either seem too tight and busy in the middle or too plain. Match Point seems like it has potential, but it may be totally imba and have screwy pathing. Moon Glaive looks like the best of the pack, imo.
Is there some reason they couldn't put the mineral patches at the top of the map for the 12 o'clock position on Moon Glaive? The other two spawn positions have mineral patches protected by the edges of the map except the top spawn making it easier to muta harass as pointed out.
It's just talk for now but it would be interesting if this map pool ends up being Terran favored. Last year was Toss heavy with the 6 dragons. This year was the "year of the swarm" with multiple zvz finals. Is it Terran's turn to return to dominance?
On August 28 2009 21:59 lazz wrote: holy shit these look so awesome. surprising how stale good old destination/medusa/colo and all the 09 season maps seem in comparison :D
edit: just took another look. this season is gonna be a protoss graveyard.
Nope I actually think that this season is favored towards toss a lot. mabye it's just me but I think every single map is a carrier map. + plenty of space to proxy = always good for toss.
I'm most looking forward to seeing games on Roadrunner and Tornado. Moon Glaive also looks interesting.
It does seem they are trying to make it a little tougher for Zergs and maybe even Protoss. Maybe they are trying to give Terran the next round of domination...again...
I wonder if they can keep Silver Sky as it is. The natural looks VERY vulnerable to muta harrass. It might work well for mech and thus make that somewhat irrelevant, but I can't judge that.
Acro might see lots of muta harrass too, but I guess the natural/choke layout sucks for zerg.
2 hatch on Judgement Day doesn't seem like a good idea.
On August 28 2009 21:59 lazz wrote: holy shit these look so awesome. surprising how stale good old destination/medusa/colo and all the 09 season maps seem in comparison :D
edit: just took another look. this season is gonna be a protoss graveyard.
Nope I actually think that this season is favored towards toss a lot. mabye it's just me but I think every single map is a carrier map. + plenty of space to proxy = always good for toss.
carriers are really only relevant in PvT.. and even then with the ridiculous amount of exposure that the expansions have to tank fire I don't think that advantage will matter.
plus, like others have said, the naturals in a few of the maps have two entrances, making forge FEing a pain in the ass PvZ.
I'm loving all these maps, I really hope acro and roadrunner make it, but I really love all of them, also while I'm here, what ever happened to battle royale 2.0? I heard it was in the works about the time when they took the original out of the map pool, but nothing has been heard since.
some very nice looking maps there, especially the 2player maps seem nice, but i've always liked those more.. the 4player desti looks cool aswell though! let's hope they are somewhat balanced.. next season should start now!
On August 28 2009 21:59 lazz wrote: holy shit these look so awesome. surprising how stale good old destination/medusa/colo and all the 09 season maps seem in comparison :D
edit: just took another look. this season is gonna be a protoss graveyard.
Nope I actually think that this season is favored towards toss a lot. mabye it's just me but I think every single map is a carrier map. + plenty of space to proxy = always good for toss.
carriers are really only relevant in PvT.. and even then with the ridiculous amount of exposure that the expansions have to tank fire I don't think that advantage will matter.
Actually, carrier maps are usually good TvP maps. Because any map that's good for carriers is horrible for the protoss ground army to try to flank the terran ball. Going carriers really is incredibly risky for the protoss, regardless of maps(maybe Katrina notwithstanding), because of the HUGE timing window for the terran to push. So saying a map is good for carriers means protoss could be in trouble.
On August 28 2009 18:33 writer22816 wrote: I take every whine about map imba with a grain of salt. In fact to be honest I just ignore them. Remember when Battle Royal was first announced and everyone was like LOL IT'S THE NEW TROY ZERG IS GONNA GET RAPED ON THAT MAP?
But Battle Royale is such a weird map it's hard to get a feel for the balance. These new maps are pretty vanilla in general. You don't even have weird stuff like temples or mineral blocks to add a little spice.
OTOH, high ground right in front of the natural is obviously good for seiging up tanks(both TvP and TvZ). And chokes and Asgard and Judgement day seems impossible for FE in PvZ.
sick new maps really like the first to, moonglaive seems like it has a really easy third though, and judgment day, well judgment day seems on fucking crack.
How does FEing in PvZ on Judgement Day seem impossible? Can't you just wall the choke and just take your gas nat behind it? And a probe can attack through the mineral patch, so I don't think mining it would be an issue, either? Maybe I'm missing something here...
Alright, looks like my name value in Teamliquid has finally spread to Korea. There is even a map dedicated to me for all my hardwork. So... beautiful... T-T;
But, the maps do look awesome, can't wait for the new season of PL to begin!
you obviously fail to see the brilliance that lies in zvz.
Anyways, Asgard probably is not as bad for p fe as many as you say. You get great forge/gate walls with nice cannon placement, and for hydra breaks you can place cannons on top of those ridges that cover pretty much the whole valley which allows for very efficient defense.
On August 29 2009 00:20 Ideas wrote: the only thing worse than 2 ZvZs every proleague match is 2 TvTs every PL match T_T
Well id rather watch watch 2 deep and strategic games that last for 20+ min than 2 repetitive snoorefests that last 10 min.
But oh well its a sad fact that so many people nowadays fail to apreciate TvT for its sheer brilliance
PS: some gross overgeneralization here i admit but i hate ZvZ with a fury and consider TvT to be the best mirror so yeah im biased
I like both match-ups a lot (especially more than PvP, GOD I JUST HATE PVP), but I'd rather have non-mirrors all the time. I'd rather have ZvZs than TvTs because lower level ZvZs at least end a lot faster, where as TvTs that don't feature S or A-class players tend to drag out too long and aren't nearly as entertaining as other matchups. DO YOU NOT REMEMBER SPL 2008!??!
On August 29 2009 00:20 Ideas wrote: the only thing worse than 2 ZvZs every proleague match is 2 TvTs every PL match T_T
Well id rather watch watch 2 deep and strategic games that last for 20+ min than 2 repetitive snoorefests that last 10 min.
But oh well its a sad fact that so many people nowadays fail to apreciate TvT for its sheer brilliance
PS: some gross overgeneralization here i admit but i hate ZvZ with a fury and consider TvT to be the best mirror so yeah im biased
I like both match-ups a lot (especially more than PvP, GOD I JUST HATE PVP), but I'd rather have non-mirrors all the time. I'd rather have ZvZs than TvTs because lower level ZvZs at least end a lot faster, where as TvTs that don't feature S or A-class players tend to drag out too long and aren't nearly as entertaining as other matchups. DO YOU NOT REMEMBER SPL 2008!??!
Oh well you got a point but still the chance of getting a good and fun TvT with dropships flying all over the place and shit blowing up is atleast way higher than seing anything but lings, mutas and scourge used in ZvZ.
Also the BC's man i love that moment where a fuckload of yamatos just flies all over the place :3.
I thought Asgard would be really terran favored tvp but I tried it out with GTR and it's just hard for terran to adjust to expanding that fast. You can't sit on 2 bases because you will run out of gas really fast, or even 3 because then your mineral count is really low. It's more anti-turtling than it is encouraging low-econ play.
Doesn't really encourage gas heavy builds at all because your natural only has 1000 gas.
Roadrunner -> best map. Played it and it is good. Asgard sux...with those narrow passes, and weird expos with 3 mineral patches, can't get your units (as zerg) to surround anything. I think it will favor other races.
Judgement Day - Used concept and layout of 'Guillotine' - All areas are low ground - Close mineral expos, can be blocked with 2 gateways or rax - Alternate route can be opened by mining 2x 40 mineral patches
Acro - Close ramp to starting position, gas expansion in-base, small base size - Wide nat choke - Large area to build additional buildings at nat area - Due to design of main, 1-base play (while expanding in-base) is possible, leading to possible new various strategies - Main's ramp is hard to do a wall - All geysers other than main and expo are worth 2000
Tornado - Split path after nat, leading to two attack routes - Easy-to-take 2nd gas expansion, macro-orientated map - All geysers other than main is worth 3000 - Center 'tornado-shaped' areas are unbuildable
Silver Sky - Long path from nat (other than bridge) that leads to second gas expansion and an alternate route - Easy-to-harass nat (for air units due to wall) - Easy-to-defend 2nd gas expansion - Close nat-to-nat distance, leading to many possible early-game-orientated strategies
Asgard - A 'poor' map compared to normal maps due to expansions having only 4~5 mineral fields - Many paths leads to many possible expo-harassing opportunities - Entire high-ground has been tileset-by-tileset edited such that even units with 4-5 range can harass all expansions - Entire map's mineral fields are worth 1200, geysers are all worth 3000 (except for main (5000) and nat (1000))
MatchPoint - Entire low ground is unbuildable except near expansions (and their ramps) - Fastest rush route is high ground, however if that route is unfavorable (opponent holding line, etc) then the player can make a detour (Similar to Blue Storm) - Taking high grounds will be key to controlling the map (similar to Blue Storm) - Choke near main is wallable with 1 rax 1 depot - Mineral field (16 minerals value) to help with walling
MoonGlaive - 2 routes to taking another expansion after nat; one that goes through middle (large ramp) and one that doesn't (small ramp) - Taking hold of middle of map (high ground) is key to controlling the map as it allows easy harass on all the expansions
RoadRunner - The many bridges are key to controlling the map - 2 bridges near nat, similar to Destination and Nostalgia - Easy-to-take 2nd gas expo, with an alternate route to get out of base to middle of map - Center of map is unbuildable
On August 29 2009 02:07 Postaljester wrote: I am noob, but i am having a hard time picturing how protoss will FE vs zerg on a lot of the maps, such as Asgard.
having a backdoor like that isn't that big of a problem. Just watch what Korean pros do and you'll be fine. Chupung-Ryeong and Tears of the Moon had backdoors and finding good FE placement wasn't that big a problem (the reason Tears was hell for PvZ was the lack of minerals)
On August 29 2009 02:07 Postaljester wrote: I am noob, but i am having a hard time picturing how protoss will FE vs zerg on a lot of the maps, such as Asgard.
having a backdoor like that isn't that big of a problem. Just watch what Korean pros do and you'll be fine. Chupung-Ryeong and Tears of the Moon had backdoors and finding good FE placement wasn't that big a problem (the reason Tears was hell for PvZ was the lack of minerals)
Yes, but this is still a problem for Asgard, with it slow-eco format. Actually, nvm since the main has 9 minerals.
On August 29 2009 02:07 Postaljester wrote: I am noob, but i am having a hard time picturing how protoss will FE vs zerg on a lot of the maps, such as Asgard.
having a backdoor like that isn't that big of a problem. Just watch what Korean pros do and you'll be fine. Chupung-Ryeong and Tears of the Moon had backdoors and finding good FE placement wasn't that big a problem (the reason Tears was hell for PvZ was the lack of minerals)
Yes, but this is still a problem for Asgard, with it slow-eco format. Actually, nvm since the main has 9 minerals.
Yeah, especially take note that all mineral patches are worth 1200 and not the standard 1500.
It feel like a even mix between macro and crowded technical maps. Macro: Judgement Day, Acro, Tornado, Silver Sky. Other: Asgard, Match Point, Moon Glaive, Roadrunner.
It will be interesting to see how the balance turns out, must be hellish to design well balanced maps for the leagues.
Yeah, definitely curious to see how these maps get played by pros. They all seem very interesting. Judgement Day is kind of ugly but I still like the layout. And yeah, good call Frainz on the Moon Glaive map. Dunno why they even bothered leaving one of the starting mineral patches exposed like that.
On August 29 2009 02:08 konadora wrote: Okay special features for each maps:
Judgement Day - Used concept and layout of 'Guillotine' - All areas are low ground - Close mineral expos, can be blocked with 2 gateways or rax - Alternate route can be opened by mining 2x 40 mineral patches
Acro - Close ramp to starting position, gas expansion in-base, small base size - Wide nat choke - Large area to build additional buildings at nat area - Due to design of main, 1-base play (while expanding in-base) is possible, leading to possible new various strategies - Main's ramp is hard to do a wall - All geysers other than main and expo are worth 2000
Tornado - Split path after nat, leading to two attack routes - Easy-to-take 2nd gas expansion, macro-orientated map - All geysers other than main is worth 3000 - Center 'tornado-shaped' areas are unbuildable
Silver Sky - Long path from nat (other than bridge) that leads to second gas expansion and an alternate route - Easy-to-harass nat (for air units due to wall) - Easy-to-defend 2nd gas expansion - Close nat-to-nat distance, leading to many possible early-game-orientated strategies
Asgard - A 'poor' map compared to normal maps due to expansions having only 4~5 mineral fields - Many paths leads to many possible expo-harassing opportunities - Entire high-ground has been tileset-by-tileset edited such that even units with 4-5 range can harass all expansions - Entire map's mineral fields are worth 1200, geysers are all worth 3000 (except for main (5000) and nat (1000))
MatchPoint - Entire low ground is unbuildable except near expansions (and their ramps) - Fastest rush route is high ground, however if that route is unfavorable (opponent holding line, etc) then the player can make a detour (Similar to Blue Storm) - Taking high grounds will be key to controlling the map (similar to Blue Storm) - Choke near main is wallable with 1 rax 1 depot - Mineral field (16 minerals value) to help with walling
MoonGlaive - 2 routes to taking another expansion after nat; one that goes through middle (large ramp) and one that doesn't (small ramp) - Taking hold of middle of map (high ground) is key to controlling the map as it allows easy harass on all the expansions
RoadRunner - The many bridges are key to controlling the map - 2 bridges near nat, similar to Destination and Nostalgia - Easy-to-take 2nd gas expo, with an alternate route to get out of base to middle of map - Center of map is unbuildable
On August 29 2009 05:22 Ideas wrote: hopefully the only maps they keep from the current pool are outsider and heartbreak ridge, everything else can go.
Just played my buddy in a TvZ on Asgard. 90% sure i was able to make a ling tight wall on the left side of the map with just a barracks/depot. A very complex map. I went mech and did pretty well. Slow lurker drops will probably be viable. Really cool map IMO.
Judgement Day, Asgard, Moon Glaive, and Match Point look interesting. However, I'm reserving my entire judgement (no pun intended) when I see how balanced they are.
Can't wait for the new season to start to see these maps in action.
just played asgard and had lots of of fun. the map is complex, the small pathway reminds me a bit of hitchhiker. the natural resource placement is a bit gay imho, since you have to place your hatch/nex/cc in either the best way to gather gas or mins. could just be me, but is anyone else noticing this?
On August 29 2009 09:11 pindleskin wrote: Silver Sky (은빛날개)
I don't know if anyone has pointed it out but it's probably Silver Wing(s).
Yeah, it's Silver Wings. Guess the wings can be plural or singular.
And there they go again, stealing my map concepts T_T. Asgard totally stole Indignation's low-highground feature. At least they pulled it off pretty well.
Asgard, Tornado and Moonglaive seem great to play on.
Looks like KeSPA really want longer games than last season. Looks like Terrans are going to kick everyone's ass. And looks like Zerg will go the way of the Protoss last season.
Notice "looks". Players are going to innovate until a certain leveling effect will be achieved. Perhaps a new build will dominate (2-hatch muta during Swarm Season, Forge FE during the Dragon Days, etc). Or not. Too early to call.
I hate all maps.. really sorry to say that. Hopefully some cool games occur. Maybe I hate the maps because they look totally new comparing to the latest seasons. "Terran imba" is an all-too used word but imo some of the maps look really T favoured, especially Match Point, Moon glaive and Tornado.
This map looks awesome, the idea of low mineral play sounds nice, but Im not sure how viable will it be. PvT - protoss graveyeard, with all the chokes. ZvT - terran either rushes with hidden barracks (so you have to 12p), or goes mech. Mech have nice range and harass your expos. I dont see much place for muta micro in the main/nat. Also, lots of gas? Mass vessels? :O ZvP - this looks like a potential zerg graveyeard, due to mass storms; I can see protoss making lots of cannons and archons. Technically lurkers should work here too...
This map looks like a real macro fest : O Actually looks pretty viable, I but Im afraid that terrans will just take their part of the map and outmacro everyone? Prortoss could try some arbiter play, not sure about the zerg - probably mass, mass swarms. Unfotunately the "top/bottom" expos can be dropped so easily in TvZ...
I suppose that this map will be actually pretty balanced, despite the tankable chokes. I expect some big battles at the center. I dont like that there are two routes to the nat (omg why are there 0 maps where the zerg can make 3 sunkens? ^^ As pointed out the top expansion can be muta harrassed why others not...
I dont like the center of the map. It is too "plain". Im worried that it will be hard to distinguish which part one is observing by just looking at the ground. I think the expansions are too easy to be taken by terran. PvZ will probably be balanced, or even favoured for protoss (just expand with cannons few times?). 11 and 5 can be muta harrassed, other positions not..
I dont like it. Very, very plain. Looks like a protoss map (reaver gogogo?) and a potential zerg graveyeard. Still, I think that T>P on this map... The lowground seems to sorta balance the ZvT matchup. Mutas unviable, so terran might go 3fact tanks to stop lurkers..
Zerg graveyeard in ZvP? Protoss takes 4 bases while massing/harrasing? Same for ZvT? I expecct incredible macro fests in PvT... Some spots seem to be much easier to be harrassed by muta than other...
Terran takes 3 expos and prevents Z/P from doing anything. On the other hand there was a similar map this season (the one with expansions in main) and it wasnt so imbalanced. Although all the games were BORING.
I dont think there is enough space for the protoss to make cannons on the 2nd natural expos. I believe that they will be able to hold them easily in PvZ (they manage to do it on destination, which is much less favourable). This map seems to be pretty standard, but boring too (I expect mech tvz due to 3 gas). PvT will probably be about dull macro and arbiters.
Here comes another Zerg season. Please, *PLEASE* make maps where expansions have no gas and we have wide open unbuildable areas. P really needs a chance right now, things are looking bad...
On August 29 2009 18:13 zazen wrote: Here comes another Zerg season. Please, *PLEASE* make maps where expansions have no gas and we have wide open unbuildable areas. P really needs a chance right now, things are looking bad...
So your asking for horribly imbalanced Protoss maps instead of maps that might be slightly favored against them o.o.
Take out the 2nd route to the natural from a few of these maps and hope the protoss players don't play crap this season is all the race can hope for .
On August 29 2009 18:05 konadora wrote: Played all the maps, they are all fucking insane
Either very early-game-aggression-prone or huge macro maps
Sounds good
More elaboration please.
Okay sure. Just my opinions on the maps:
Asgard With the modified high ground, TvP 1 fact cc is insane and if your Protoss opponent is a good player, it'll be almost considered suicide unless you wall off both entrances asap. Even then, you'll need like at least 3 tanks to defend safely. But once you get a critical amount of mech, you can slowly push out. But with so many ramps and alternate routes, it's basically a very fast-paced map. The better player wins on this map. Knowing when to expand is the key here.
Match Point Protoss and Zergs will have a hard time against T if they fast expand. The nat can be very easily harassed. Just a bunker and a floating ebay will do and you can set up an impenetratable wall. Afterwards, just cut off other routes by holding the center of the map. Not sure about PvZ though.
Moon Glaive One thing - Mech imba.
Roadrunner Quite balanced imo. Zergs will have a slightly harder time in TvZ, but it's not that bad. Not sure about TvP.
Judgement Day Similar to Andromeda.
Acro Crazily fun map, you can 12 nexus/12cc and go full macro mode, or do a bbs/bsb/2gate. I expect this map to produce the most interesting games.
Tornado Just another standard macro map. Nothing much to say about this map.
Liked this map for TvP. 2 Building wall off (cry more Scara), nice pathways for vultures. P should have a good time being mobile on this map but the oaths are all narrow and lowground. I'm not saying it's T>P but I'm interested to see how it'll work out. PvZ is a bitch FE-wise but yeah, the surrounds are difficult for the Z. It's a good map though - would love to see progames on this. Also, the peon gimps out mining from the one-but lowest mineral patch on the bottom right position. Weird.
I was most sceptic about this map but I love it. Played two PvZs on it that and end up being really dynamic. There are a lot of patchways and you do not want to be caugt on a ramp (storm) of which there are many. FE @ nat is possible (even though the double enxtrance) but any expansions beyond that feel so very hard to secure. Your 3rd and 4th both have a highground over them. The corner expansions can be pretty easily reached (remind me of Blue Storm but without the extra ramp - pretty much a bitch to get to if you're on the big platform) and the other expansions are nearly islands. Expanding beyond nat is gonna be hard for TvP I fear. TvZ feels T favoured as after muta you can very well keep the Zerg on their lowground.
Moon Glaive
Loved this for ZvMech - the lower ground pathways allow for your Zerg army to come down hard on the Terran (or Protoss too prolly). 3rd gas is very far away though. TvT was pretty bland.
4 player Destination insanity. In TvZ I opted for a Mech build but Mutas from his main on 5 came down fast and hard on my exp at 3. Also imagine being P at 5 with a Terran at 2 pushing down, taking 2 gas expos on the way and then elevatoring his army into your main (which can be sieged up at). I expect positional issues.
Only played half a game on this. Walling in a T is Tau-esque (and frustrating to do for the first time. I think you can wall of both expos using 2 supdeps and a rax. Reminds of Guilotine. I don't like it much.
Already dubbed "the map with the penises" on vent. Again, 3rd gas so far away. Played one TvZ and after heavily turreting up the penis thingy I could push out and easily siege up down the nat ramp. I don't like it. In TvP I could see CC befre Fact becoming viable and intense dropship play. but meh.
Tornado (용오름)
Again far away expansions and I fear some positional issues (f.e. 4 > 7). The highground patches are cute but I'm not sure if they're a good idea. + Show Spoiler +
Pretty bland map. 3 bases with 2 small chokes and an enormous plain plane to push across. Flanking is ace on this macro map. ZP > T I think. PvP (and maybe ZvZ) would be pretty cool I think. Also, you can drop a ghost behind the natural wall (and maybe a templar) > nuclear launch detected. kekeke.
I played silver wing pvt a few times, it seemed very good for protoss. A double expand works, as well as 2 base massing, you can make a very strong attack on the terrans natural once you get speedlots, and the third base is fairly hard to hold for the terran, without over extending yourself. It is also very easy to contain the terran at the two choke points, and vulture harass is easy to fend off, just make a pylon wall at the small ramp to your 3rd base.
Asgard is by far the most innovative and refreshing map in the entire pool.
The low resource count should encourage micro-oriented strategies which is an extremely good thing in my opinion, long overdue. The small trenches seem like they will be balanced out by the fact that there are multiple pathways on the map allowing for counter attacks. Also because the trenches are so narrow it allows even shorter-ranged units to fire down on enemies moving through them. It is because of this that I think most of the larger confrontations will be oriented on the 2 center high ground areas with the lower trenches being utilized to try to do sneaky run-bys when the opponent isn't watching them.
On August 30 2009 02:44 generic88 wrote: Asgard is by far the most innovative and refreshing map in the entire pool.
The low resource count should encourage micro-oriented strategies which is an extremely good thing in my opinion, long overdue. The small trenches seem like they will be balanced out by the fact that there are multiple pathways on the map allowing for counter attacks. Also because the trenches are so narrow it allows even shorter-ranged units to fire down on enemies moving through them. It is because of this that I think most of the larger confrontations will be oriented on the 2 center high ground areas with the lower trenches being utilized to try to do sneaky run-bys when the opponent isn't watching them.
On August 30 2009 04:59 Nevuk wrote: Asgard doesn't really encourage micro, it just really discourages turtling.
Lol? Terran mech vs Zerg can secure his entire high ground and the 4gases and just turret up behind the high ground and siege tanks. Hydras wouldn't do anything at all, ever, so Z is forced to go like air. Then T can turtle some more, and take his next 2 gas expansions(for example, the top right ones for the left spawn). There's nothing a Zerg can do about sieged tanks with those chokes with any kind of ground units, and Goliaths and Valkyries destroy pure muta.
On August 30 2009 04:59 Nevuk wrote: Asgard doesn't really encourage micro, it just really discourages turtling.
Lol? Terran mech vs Zerg can secure his entire high ground and the 4gases and just turret up behind the high ground and siege tanks. Hydras wouldn't do anything at all, ever, so Z is forced to go like air. Then T can turtle some more, and take his next 2 gas expansions(for example, the top right ones for the left spawn). There's nothing a Zerg can do about sieged tanks with those chokes with any kind of ground units, and Goliaths and Valkyries destroy pure muta.
-_- Soooooooo imba.
I've played it, the low gases force them to expand. At least in tvp. Didn't try tvz at all though. Their nat has only 1000 gas, and the other two gas have barely as much as an normal natural. So while they might get it faster, they can't really camp off 4 bases with 11000 gas (normally you would have 20000 off 4 bases). It might be really imba in tvz, I'll admit that. It was really hard to stop early pushes but after that point it's really easy to abuse T with how open the map is.
On August 30 2009 04:59 Nevuk wrote: Asgard doesn't really encourage micro, it just really discourages turtling.
Lol? Terran mech vs Zerg can secure his entire high ground and the 4gases and just turret up behind the high ground and siege tanks. Hydras wouldn't do anything at all, ever, so Z is forced to go like air. Then T can turtle some more, and take his next 2 gas expansions(for example, the top right ones for the left spawn). There's nothing a Zerg can do about sieged tanks with those chokes with any kind of ground units, and Goliaths and Valkyries destroy pure muta.
-_- Soooooooo imba.
I've played it, the low gases force them to expand. At least in tvp. Didn't try tvz at all though. Their nat has only 1000 gas, and the other two gas have barely as much as an normal natural. So while they might get it faster, they can't really camp off 4 bases with 11000 gas (normally you would have 20000 off 4 bases). It might be really imba in tvz, I'll admit that. It was really hard to stop early pushes but after that point it's really easy to abuse T with how open the map is.
Turtling on 6gas bases(half the map) without having to move... Doesn't matter if there's little gas, that only hurts Z. T can literally just sit on his half and wait for the map to get mined out.
afaik no, I'd say it's a bit premature to assume they're going to use all of those maps (and it's definitely premature to say they are the final versions)
On August 30 2009 04:59 Nevuk wrote: Asgard doesn't really encourage micro, it just really discourages turtling.
Lol? Terran mech vs Zerg can secure his entire high ground and the 4gases and just turret up behind the high ground and siege tanks. Hydras wouldn't do anything at all, ever, so Z is forced to go like air. Then T can turtle some more, and take his next 2 gas expansions(for example, the top right ones for the left spawn). There's nothing a Zerg can do about sieged tanks with those chokes with any kind of ground units, and Goliaths and Valkyries destroy pure muta.
-_- Soooooooo imba.
I've played it, the low gases force them to expand. At least in tvp. Didn't try tvz at all though. Their nat has only 1000 gas, and the other two gas have barely as much as an normal natural. So while they might get it faster, they can't really camp off 4 bases with 11000 gas (normally you would have 20000 off 4 bases). It might be really imba in tvz, I'll admit that. It was really hard to stop early pushes but after that point it's really easy to abuse T with how open the map is.
Turtling on 6gas bases(half the map) without having to move... Doesn't matter if there's little gas, that only hurts Z. T can literally just sit on his half and wait for the map to get mined out.
Yeah, it's probably true that they can turtle very easily tvz. In the games I played, it was really easy to harass the T as a P player. (It's likely going to be a T>Z , Z>P, P>T map).
I wish there was some way for people to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to new maps. Something like FPL where you take points and spend them across betting on:
- race versus race winning percentages (who will be > 50% after each season, spend extra points to bet on a map being > 60% for potential extra reward, etc.) - number of mirrors (which race will have the most, second most, least) - race versus race winning percentages between top 10 ELO XvY players (which would only be activated when for example, a top 10 ZvT ELO plays a top 10 TvZ ELO) - Whether or not the map will survive the season
Would be interesting to look back and see how and why peoples' initial impressions differed from reality.
On August 30 2009 06:34 MuffinDude wrote:Are they actually using ALL the maps?
No, some of them do not qualify into the Proleague mappool. For example, Central Plains was a part of the previous batch of Proleague maps and it was never played on in televised matches (which I am incredibly grateful for since the map featured the most disgusting characteristic of all....in-game advertisement -.-).
Anyway, the maps are first tested by a group of progamers. Then a few progamers are chosen to test them, which allows the mapmakers to fine tune them and pick which ones go into the mappool. Only then are they used in actual televised matches.
On August 30 2009 07:10 darktreb wrote: I wish there was some way for people to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to new maps. Something like FPL where you take points and spend them across betting on:
- race versus race winning percentages (who will be > 50% after each season, spend extra points to bet on a map being > 60% for potential extra reward, etc.) - number of mirrors (which race will have the most, second most, least) - race versus race winning percentages between top 10 ELO XvY players (which would only be activated when for example, a top 10 ZvT ELO plays a top 10 TvZ ELO) - Whether or not the map will survive the season
Would be interesting to look back and see how and why peoples' initial impressions differed from reality.
that actually would be pretty cool, just need someone to write the code
On August 30 2009 06:34 MuffinDude wrote:Are they actually using ALL the maps?
No, some of them do not qualify into the Proleague mappool. For example, Central Plains was a part of the previous batch of Proleague maps and it was never played on in televised matches (which I am incredibly grateful for since the map featured the most disgusting characteristic of all....in-game advertisement -.-).
Anyway, the maps are first tested by a group of progamers. Then a few progamers are chosen to test them, which allows the mapmakers to fine tune them and pick which ones go into the mappool. Only then are they used in actual televised matches.
Well they've never released maps this early for download before soooo maybe they are ?
On August 30 2009 06:34 MuffinDude wrote:Are they actually using ALL the maps?
No, some of them do not qualify into the Proleague mappool. For example, Central Plains was a part of the previous batch of Proleague maps and it was never played on in televised matches (which I am incredibly grateful for since the map featured the most disgusting characteristic of all....in-game advertisement -.-).
Anyway, the maps are first tested by a group of progamers. Then a few progamers are chosen to test them, which allows the mapmakers to fine tune them and pick which ones go into the mappool. Only then are they used in actual televised matches.
Well they've never released maps this early for download before soooo maybe they are ?
on the contrary, maybe they're releasing them early so the public can test them and get a good feeling of the main flaws or corrections that should be made?
On August 30 2009 06:34 MuffinDude wrote:Are they actually using ALL the maps?
No, some of them do not qualify into the Proleague mappool. For example, Central Plains was a part of the previous batch of Proleague maps and it was never played on in televised matches (which I am incredibly grateful for since the map featured the most disgusting characteristic of all....in-game advertisement -.-).
Anyway, the maps are first tested by a group of progamers. Then a few progamers are chosen to test them, which allows the mapmakers to fine tune them and pick which ones go into the mappool. Only then are they used in actual televised matches.
Well they've never released maps this early for download before soooo maybe they are ?
on the contrary, maybe they're releasing them early so the public can test them and get a good feeling of the main flaws or corrections that should be made?
These maps look freakin' awesome, already played some games on them. I think Judgement Day and Match point are going be the maps we see everywhere on Iccup, kinda like how Destination/Python are now.
I tihnk many of them look fun but fe in PvZ on many of them look like a pain. Then we have Terran with all the narrow passages on msot maps, looks like at least I will cry more then I already do in PvT.
Hardly any of these maps seem to work, whenever I make people can't dl them, with the exception of asgard, roadrunner, moon glaive and match point so far.
Hi, could anyone please tell me what [TR] and [Ob] stand for with the maps? Cause I have 3 maps that look exactly the same to me. I can't figure it out.
TR is training where you select your position to practice, Obs is for a version that has observer slots, and the last one is just the normal version of the map.
On August 30 2009 07:10 darktreb wrote: I wish there was some way for people to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to new maps. Something like FPL where you take points and spend them across betting on:
- race versus race winning percentages (who will be > 50% after each season, spend extra points to bet on a map being > 60% for potential extra reward, etc.) - number of mirrors (which race will have the most, second most, least) - race versus race winning percentages between top 10 ELO XvY players (which would only be activated when for example, a top 10 ZvT ELO plays a top 10 TvZ ELO) - Whether or not the map will survive the season
Would be interesting to look back and see how and why peoples' initial impressions differed from reality.
On September 01 2009 10:54 Wolforius wrote: Hi, could anyone please tell me what [TR] and [Ob] stand for with the maps? Cause I have 3 maps that look exactly the same to me. I can't figure it out.
Thank you in advance.
[TR] = Training Mode, you can pick which location you spawn at in UMS settings. [Ob] = Observer Mode, this is what people use when they host obs game under UMS settings. edit: im stupid and slow
Looks like terran dominance for once. It's been a while since that was last time. Well some map might end up being completely unplayable for TvZ or TvP and that might break the entire dominance thing so I guess it's too early to tell. But on paper they look fantastic. Bear in mind that this is coming from a guy that thought Battle Royal looked like the most fun map of the last batch and outsider looked like crap.
Foreigner mappers just aren't recognized by KesPA. Unlike the players, foreigner mappers are actually as good (or better) than the Koreans. Still, we can't do much about it.
These are some cool maps, I've been playing them heaps since this thread started... I play toss and terran, and man these maps are great for terran. Looks to be an interesting season coming up!
Match point is my favourite, I'm still not sure why I like it, but it's a good map.
*smells the air* fantasy Starleague win coming up?
Foreigner mappers just aren't recognized by KesPA. Unlike the players, foreigner mappers are actually as good (or better) than the Koreans. Still, we can't do much about it.
well that goes without saying. KesPA deals with Korea.
The only exposure these maps can really get is through foreigner tournaments. But most foreigner tourneys tend to shy away from these maps due to the interest of the players (players want the Korean maps because they practice mostly on them and they know those maps have been thoroughly tested and played (and SHOULD be balanced))
1. Gas expo is inside main, not below ramp. Zerg and Protoss will be forced to expand inside main. This is good for Terran because Zerg cannot sunken their entrance through natural. As well as the fact that the natural expo can easily be seiged.
2.Choke points near main's, also god for Terran. We all know why, no flank's/clumping etc.
3.Good terrain for tank cover/can't be flanked.
4.This might be the most important aspect of the map. (Along with no.5) once Terran can take 3rd gas outside, it has a great high ground area to cover/and spread to another gas. Not to mention it's going to be hell for a Protoss who spawns at 5 o'clock vs a Terran at 7. Easy slow push with high ground to natural.
5. The easily harassable gas naturals.
6.A map that can easily be split in half. (Like God's Garden) And if it is split in half, Terran vs Protoss on same expos is hard to beat.
That's not that disappointing really. It's a lot more balanced than the early release. Most of the points i had mention still remain. 1. Was kind of retarded. Gas should be at low ground anyway. 2,3,4(Only 1 gas instead of 2),5 and 6 still remain.
Uh you realise that there is a gas inside the main as well? This map has so much gas it makes pvz a nightmare (that in addition to the easily defendable 2 gas when you take another main).
The map has a nice concept, but its really failing hard in execution at the moment. For instance, that backdoor is so pointless - all it is doing is screwing up pathing because no one bothers to open it =/
Updated Moon Glaive: Changes - Nat mineral/gas layout changed - Center high grounds ramp removed - Added lots of white doodad thingies - Made 12 main's nat's choke tighter by 1~2 squares - Made 12 nat slightly larger - Shifted 12 main/7 main mineral/gas layout - Added some space behind 7 nat's mineral line for turrets (not sure if it's buildable though) - Made 7 nat choke slightly tighter
Updated Roadrunner: Changes - Added 1 more mineral at nat - Top left/btm right main mineral layout changed
Wow they fixed the air distance in Moon Glaive. Match Point's bot and top expansions might still allow proxies though... Asgard looks very very very nice....expecting dynamic plays with flanks just everywhere.
damn, too bad I can't do a thorough analysis on these revisions any time soon..
On September 10 2009 23:57 StorrZerg wrote: enjoying the show matches on the new maps can't wait to see which ones they bring in.
Yeah, just watched the games on Asgard and TvP seems awesome on that map, although PvZ seem like Z>>>P but we need more time to correctly judge, i guess.
On September 14 2009 10:29 0neder wrote: Do they keep some of the newer maps from last year's PL? I think HBR and Outsider are pretty special and would be sad to see them go.
Ya they always take 2 maps from the previous season that are good and then add new ones. Last season they carried over Blue Storm and Katrina. Then they brought over Andromeda and Colosseum at the beginning of this season. Since this season was so long they changed maps after winners league and kept Medusa and Destination. They usually pick the best maps so ya Outsider and Heartbreak Ridge should be seen next season.
I've played some games on roadrunner and I have to say that is a sexy map many strategies involving ranged units are possible and I came up with a pretty good build there for zvt. 2 hatch muta and quick transition into lurkers, kill the turrets from the natural from the high ground and make a nice lurker setup up the ramp. Now the zerg is free to harrass with mutas and terran can't do anything with marines and tanks will be late because he spent so much in turrets defending from mutas. I think this season we will see more 1 base play rather than the typical fe this season.
ps: if terran mech's this is an imba map. How can you beat terran with mutas only (not considering hydras for obvious reasons *hint* tanks and tight bridges) if terran uses tank gol vessel?
Why would you make Acro a 3-gas map? It'll be just another God's Garden, only more so. Without even having a tankable nat. D'oh. And I liked it before, too.
I hate to agree with Bisu, but these maps SUCK. Preliminary results are that they only perpetuate the natural T>Z>P>T imbalance, rather than offsetting it. It seems to me that only the players who are strong in the anti-direction like Yarnc, Bisu, Fantasy are going to get anywhere. I predict a long, boring season...
Hmm. I know this ain't the proper thread and I apologise for the question.. but does anyone has information when would next Season in Proleague begin? And when would Liquidbet start running?
EPT
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