• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:10
CEST 19:10
KST 02:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
$5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy0GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding0Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win0[BSL22] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6
StarCraft 2
General
Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2)
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Season 4 announced for March-April
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. ASL21 General Discussion Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen [BSL22] RO32 Group Stage Gypsy to Korea
Tourneys
🌍 Weekly Foreign Showmatches [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group F Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Loot Boxes—Emotions, And Why…
TrAiDoS
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Electronics
mantequilla
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1988 users

Alt stream clients: are they hurting e-sports?

Blogs > Primadog
Post a Reply
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 18:21:35
July 11 2011 10:48 GMT
#1
EDIT: Well done WarpPrism and Justin.tv for resolving this issue!


Pioneered by WarpPrism, serious contenders for alternative stream browsing client/aggregate have popped out from the likes of www.Twitch.TV and www.WellPlayed.tv to streamline and add value to the viewer experience. Although almost every option serves Justin.tv streams, each client have built their own unique sets of features, but two that all share (or will have) are fast stream switching and Picture-in-Picture (PiP).

One unintended (or just largely overlooked) consequence of these two features are its financial repercussion with the casters whom provide the entertainment. Fast-switching provides a "channel-flipping" like experience for the viewer, and to enable it one necessary sacrifice to make this possible is to disable pre-roll ads, an important component of caster revenue. PiP, on the other hand, enable viewers to practically watch multiple streams in a simple browsing interface, created a sudden, effective increase in viewer base from which draw ad-impressions from. These two variables moves revenue streams in opposing directions, whether one willl overpower the another, and the magnitude of these change, can have significant repercussion to this significant source of income in our nascent industry.

Terms
  • Impression: one instance where a viewer watched an ad from start to finish
  • Pre-roll: A term for ads that played when first tuned into a stream. It can be considered a "free" impression and has significant correlation with unique visitors (for the purpose of this study, they're consider equivalent).
  • Standard ad: Streamers can run an ad on Justin.tv every x-minutes they streamed. One important feature that Justin.tv provides to game-casters is the ability to "stock-up" on ads and choose when to run them. An effective streamer can run appromixately 3-4 ads a hour.
  • Ad revenue: roughly $2~5 per thousand impression according to various sources.


Pseudo equations
  • Impression = Pre-roll ads + Standard ads
  • Revenue = Impression * $$/thousand


Variables:
Let
  • M = unique viewer multipler (define: unique viewer / average viewers)
  • V = average viewer
  • WP = a number between 0 to 100% that corresponds to the percentage of viewers that utilize alternative video clients
  • PiP = a number between 0 to 100% that corresponds to the percentage of alternative client users that uses PiP
  • Ad = average ads played per hour
  • Hour = average hours per session


Equilibrium points:
The pseudo equations collapse to:
  • Impressions = M * V * (1- WP) + (1 + WP) * V * PiP * Ad * Hour
  • Revenue lost due to pre-roll block = M * V * WP
  • Revenue gained due to PiP effective viewership increase = WP * V * PiP * Ad * Hour


System is equilibrium if and only if revenue lost = revenue gain:
  • M V WP = WP V PiP Ad Hour
  • M = PiP Ad Hour


System is benefitial to casters if revenue lost < revenue gain
  • M < PiP Ad Hour


System is detrimental to casters if revenue lost > revenue gain
  • M > PiP Ad Hour


Interesting enough, because we have removing a substantial number of variables, whether the growth of alternative clients have an affect on ad revenue is fairly simple and dependent only a single variable - the viewer multipler M. PiP, Ad, and Hour are all fairly basic variables that can be reliably approximated.

For example, in a typical 3-hour stream, a M value higher than 10 guarantees that growth of alternative stream client will lead to a substantial decrease in revenue, whereas a M value lower than 3 guarantees substantial revenue growth.


Conclusion
This system of analysis lead to a surprisingly simple conclusion that depends on a single measurable variable M. Current trend indicate that alternative stream clients are popular and their usage growing, thus understanding where does M stands have a paramount importance to how client developers, stream providers, and us viewers should welcome or discourage these clients and its features. I welcome Justin.tv and its streamers to do studies to determine the exact M value of SC2 streaming, thus we can all understand the proper stance forward.


Further study
How to determine M, where M is the unique viewer multipler defined as unique viewer / average viewers.

For streamers
Stream multiple sessions of similiar viewership level, set half without pre-roll and half with pre-roll. The difference is the total pre-roll impression, which when divided by your average viewership will beget M.

For stream provider
M is the divisor of unique viewership of a stream against the average viewership.







***
Thank God and gunrun.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
July 11 2011 11:44 GMT
#2
Well, according to the movie by the guy who's making warp prism, Justin.tv is actively working to get pre-rolls ads working on alternative clients. If they do, there's really no loss in income for justin.tv and the streamers.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
July 11 2011 12:19 GMT
#3
Some additional info is that most of our players stream for a couple hours at once and have about 10-30 minutes of viewer time per viewer. This means that per viewer preroll ads play a large role.

I would also assume that once a game finishes some people switch out to another channel to see if anything is going on there, thus missing the ad completely on their original channel.

On July 11 2011 20:44 Tobberoth wrote:
Well, according to the movie by the guy who's making warp prism, Justin.tv is actively working to get pre-rolls ads working on alternative clients. If they do, there's really no loss in income for justin.tv and the streamers.

Doesn't that hurt the whole experience of fast switching?
Administrator
Dusty
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3359 Posts
July 11 2011 12:31 GMT
#4
I thought ads gave .02 cents per view?
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
July 11 2011 12:36 GMT
#5
On July 11 2011 21:31 Dusty wrote:
I thought ads gave .02 cents per view?


that's what he said.

0.02 x 1000 = $2
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-11 12:47:01
July 11 2011 12:45 GMT
#6
On July 11 2011 21:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Some additional info is that most of our players stream for a couple hours at once and have about 10-30 minutes of viewer time per viewer. This means that per viewer preroll ads play a large role.

I would also assume that once a game finishes some people switch out to another channel to see if anything is going on there, thus missing the ad completely on their original channel.

Show nested quote +
On July 11 2011 20:44 Tobberoth wrote:
Well, according to the movie by the guy who's making warp prism, Justin.tv is actively working to get pre-rolls ads working on alternative clients. If they do, there's really no loss in income for justin.tv and the streamers.

Doesn't that hurt the whole experience of fast switching?


This is the most interesting part I found about this analysis. The variables are more or less constrained by the revenue system we have to work with, which means with some small amount of time researching the actual values (or range of values) of M, PiP, Ad, and Hour, we can easily figure out in what direction will ad revenue will be shifting.

From the sound of your experience, Nazgul, M is awfully high, which means that there's an almost certain chance that a proliferated alternate stream client is going to hurt the players' bottom line. This means that for client developers like WarpPrism, WellPlayed.tv, and Twitch.tv, there exists an inherent conflict of interest between a better viewing experience versus player revenue.

I wonder how this will be resolved?
Thank God and gunrun.
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-11 13:07:03
July 11 2011 13:06 GMT
#7
I guess the ultimate goal for the alt clients is to put their own ads, which is a catastrophe. JTV (and co) either have to somehow prevent alt clients from using their content or the alt clients have to let the viewers see jtv ads.

I know I'm not using adblock on streaming sites (or TL :p) to support the players and I hope a solution will be found about this, because if one thing is hurting ESPORTS for real, it's this :/

Maliris
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
July 11 2011 13:07 GMT
#8
Realistically the pro's are gonna get shafted due to the overwhelming majority of viewers compared to them. Majority rules.
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
July 11 2011 14:04 GMT
#9
On July 11 2011 22:06 MrCon wrote:
I guess the ultimate goal for the alt clients is to put their own ads, which is a catastrophe. JTV (and co) either have to somehow prevent alt clients from using their content or the alt clients have to let the viewers see jtv ads.

I know I'm not using adblock on streaming sites (or TL :p) to support the players and I hope a solution will be found about this, because if one thing is hurting ESPORTS for real, it's this :/




i think if the other clients started shafting jtv for money then jtv would stop allowing them to restream the content
Pulzlulz
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany412 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 19:36:55
July 12 2011 19:34 GMT
#10
On July 11 2011 21:36 me_viet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 11 2011 21:31 Dusty wrote:
I thought ads gave .02 cents per view?


that's what he said.

0.02 x 1000 = $2

0.02 x 1000 is 20.

Mathematically you get 0.2 cent or $0.002 per viewer.
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 19:51:28
July 12 2011 19:38 GMT
#11
I know I have noticed a drop in our ad revenue in line with how much our traffic from WarpPrisim has grown.

<3 WP, but this pre-roll ad issue needs to be fixed T_T

On July 11 2011 20:44 Tobberoth wrote:
Well, according to the movie by the guy who's making warp prism, Justin.tv is actively working to get pre-rolls ads working on alternative clients. If they do, there's really no loss in income for justin.tv and the streamers.


They would start after 15 seconds or something. Might be a good middleground, but only time will tell.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
R1CH
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Netherlands10342 Posts
July 12 2011 20:23 GMT
#12
JTV should really follow livestreams method of showing pre-rolls - run it after 20 - 25 seconds so you can figure out what is being streamed and whether you want to keep watching. Currently channel surfing on JTV without a 3rd party stream client is pretty much impossible with all the pre-rolls enabled on 95% of channels and it really encourages use of adblock.
AdministratorTwitter: @R1CH_TL
TL+ Member
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 18:20:34
July 12 2011 22:10 GMT
#13
Originally, I started working on this model to prove that the clients are a net positive, so the conclusion was a (pleasant) surprise just from a theoretical prospective.

Personally, I don't want to give alternative client developers too much shit for what they do, for they too are creating value in this nascent industry. More importantly, now that WP has opened the pandora's box, viewers are not gonna go back to the way it was. It's a dynamic shift in viewership habits and rather than complain and hate, we should be considering how to take advantage (or at least mitigate) this development.

Hopefully that rumour that JTV and WP is working together to keep pre-roll is true. If so, I am more than happy that my model can be completely discarded.

EDIT: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/iq7e4/warp_prism_now_with_ads_a_good_thing_it_supports/c25t94h
Thank God and gunrun.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 50m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .265
mouzHeroMarine 196
BRAT_OK 67
MindelVK 25
UpATreeSC 6
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3422
Shuttle 614
ggaemo 279
Mini 276
Snow 264
Larva 210
hero 197
Rush 182
Soulkey 158
Dewaltoss 86
[ Show more ]
Sharp 47
Hyun 28
soO 20
Terrorterran 18
NaDa 11
Sexy 7
Dota 2
Gorgc8177
420jenkins281
Counter-Strike
fl0m2126
pashabiceps1945
byalli394
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King85
Other Games
Grubby1389
FrodaN1049
B2W.Neo928
Beastyqt671
RotterdaM272
C9.Mang0135
ArmadaUGS110
KnowMe80
Trikslyr57
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Shameless 28
• Adnapsc2 4
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 12
• blackmanpl 10
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota260
League of Legends
• Nemesis3113
Other Games
• imaqtpie227
• Shiphtur134
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 50m
The PondCast
16h 50m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 6h
WardiTV Team League
1d 17h
Replay Cast
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
WardiTV Team League
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
BSL
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Team League
3 days
OSC
3 days
BSL
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
GSL
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W2
IPSL Spring 2026
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
WardiTV TLMC #16
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.