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So the last thread got closed 'cos I didn't put enough effort into the OP. Yet I didn't have the chance to respond to the replies because it was like 12am in NZ.
Like racism or sexism, specie-cism is one dominant species disregarding the rights of other species. It is compassion and the capacity for empathy that differentiates human beings from being good and bad. Without compassion for our fellow man, there is only the law of the jungle - survival of the fittest.
Why can't the same compassion be shown towards animals? The worst argument I heard was that children are dying around the world, therefore animal rights don't matter and somehow because I support animal rights I am against human rights.
First of all, I do support human rights and am actively involved with charities that help the poor (e.g. sponsoring children, volunteering my time for community groups that help the homeless). Coming from an ex-Christian background, I've dedicated more of my time to helping human rights than animal rights. Chances are those that attack vegans for not supporting human rights are less likely to be involved in any active charitable work themselves, as most people that give their time to various causes know how disrespective it is to have someone attack your cause as being less worthy than another's.
Secondly, supporting animal rights takes nothing away from human rights. All veganism requires is a change in diet - it does not require going out and trampling on human rights.
Thirdly, what it comes down to is what is ethical. Animals may not be as intelligent as us - but that doesn't mean they feel less pain. This is evidenced both physically and mentally.
An extract from nzdairy.webs.com:
In addition to having distinct personalities, cows are very intelligent animals who can remember things for a long time. Animal behaviorists have found that cows interact in complex ways, developing friendships over time, sometimes holding grudges against cows who treat them badly and choosing leaders based upon intelligence. They have complex emotions as well and even have the ability to worry about the future.
Researchers have found that cows can not only figure out problems, they also enjoy the challenge and get excited when they find a solution. In one study, researchers challenged the animals with a task where they had to find how to open a door to get some food. The researchers then measured their brainwaves. Professor Broom said that ‘The brainwaves showed the cows excitement; their heartbeat went up and some even jumped into the air. We called it their Eureka moment,’ Cows can also learn how to push a lever to operate a drinking fountain when they’re thirty or press a button with their head to release food when they’re hungry. Like humans they quickly learn to avoid things that cause pain like electric fences. In fact if just one cow in the herd is shocked by an electric fence, the rest of the herd will learn from that and will avoid the fence in the future.
Grandmother cows often help their daughters with mothering duties, but one cow named Olivia wanted no part of that. She never left her calf’s side, and she ignored her mother’s offers to help groom him. Offended, her mother finally marched off to another field to graze with her friends and never communicated to her daughter again. Cows can also remember and hold grudges against people who have hurt them or their family members.
Dairy cows are continually kept pregnant and lactating and their babies are sold off to the meat industry when they are only two days old. The life of a dairy cow is not as natural as you might think, especially considering that 80 percent of dairy cows are made pregnant through artificial insemination.
The only way for a cow, like any other mammal, to produce milk is for the cow to have a baby. The milk produced by cows is naturally meant for baby calves; however, because people want to drink this milk, the baby calves are taken away from their mothers when they are only a few days old. Cows are extremely maternal animals and both the mother cow and the baby calf suffer terribly from being separated at such a young age. In fact, one cow missed her baby so much that she broke out of her paddock and trekked through 8 kilometers of paddocks and rivers to find her baby. On dairy farms, mother cows can be heard bellowing out wildly trying to find their babies as well as running after the cattle trucks that take their babies to separate farms.
The baby calves life is then decided by their gender. That’s right, not only is the dairy industry hell for the animals, the environment and your health, it is also an industry that decides an animal’s entire life based on whether they are male or female. If the calve is male then he is taken away to be raised and slaughtered for meat. Because of this the NZ dairy industry contributes to the death of more than 1 million male dairy cows every year. That’s one death every 20 seconds. In fact, 55 percent of all beef in New Zealand supermarkets comes directly from the dairy industry. These male calves are transported to separate meat farms where they will never see their mothers again. They suffer terribly on their journey to the meat farm. Transported as young as 4 days of age, they endure cold and hunger, without food for up to 30 hours, while struggling to maintain their footing in the cattle truck.
However if the calf is female she is raised as a dairy cow, living in the same conditions as her mothers. She too will live in a cycle of pregnancy and lactation, being forced to give birth to a baby calf each year, only to have that baby torn away from her within a few days. In the wild cows can live to be up to 25 years old. But on dairy farms they are slaughtered when they are only 8-10 years old meaning that most dairy cows live less than half their natural life span.
Because dairy cows are milked so excessively, NZ dairy cows have increased risks of teat diseases like mastitis. When a cow has mastitis her udder may become so inflamed that it is as hard as a stone, and blood bubbles into her milk, which becomes clotted and watery. Severe cases of mastitis can kill a cow in less than a day.
 
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Simply put, how can you even survive without being a specieist? Are you suggesting to not kill animals at all, or to just be more humane about it?
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On February 10 2011 05:36 Treemonkeys wrote:
Simply put, how can you even survive without being a specieist? Are you suggesting to not kill animals at all, or to just be more humane about it?
It's not about making a 180 degree turn overnight, but rather doing as much as practically possible. For example, some people may argue that medical advancements require vivisection. But that doesn't justify vivisection for cosmetic product testing purposes. Or some may argue not all farms are like factory farms. In that case they ought not to eat from places like McDonalds or Burger King, which purchase from the worst offenders.
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On February 10 2011 05:31 Tony Campolo wrote:Like racism or sexism, specie-cism is one dominant species disregarding the rights of other species. It is compassion and the capacity for empathy that differentiates human beings from being good and bad. Without compassion for our fellow man, there is only the law of the jungle - survival of the fittest.
Why can't the same compassion be shown towards animals? The worst argument I heard was that children are dying around the world, therefore animal rights don't matter and somehow because I support animal rights I am against human rights.
I think you're taking survival of the fittest too literally. It has nothing to do with being stronger or weaker and lacking compassion to "destroy the enemy" in order to survive. It means the fittest gene pool and whether or not you're chosen by nature and can reproduce. Not, and to quote Stephen Merchant, that Lions have been working out in a gym and got stronger and therefore survived.
The reason we don't show the same compassion towards animals is because they are inferior to humans, it's just that simple.
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On February 10 2011 05:48 SolHeiM wrote:
I think you're taking survival of the fittest too literally. It has nothing to do with being stronger or weaker and lacking compassion to "destroy the enemy" in order to survive. It means the fittest gene pool and whether or not you're chosen by nature and can reproduce. Not, and to quote Stephen Merchant, that Lions have been working out in a gym and got stronger and therefore survived.
The reason we don't show the same compassion towards animals is because they are inferior to humans, it's just that simple.
It's not that simple. Do you lack compassion towards the physically or mentally disabled because they are 'inferior'? That's the kind of mindset racists had towards blacks in the past. Even if they are inferior, it takes nothing away from humans to be more compassionate to them than we already are. The worst thing that can happen is that you eat less meat and miss the taste. For us it's just a meal though. For them it's their whole lives, as well as losing their families. If you've ever been hunting before, you'd see that a kid (baby goat) grieves over the death of their mother.
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If cows were the self-aware, technologically-dominant species they'd be doing the same to us in a heartbeat.
Think of it as pre-empting the bovine revolution.
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On February 10 2011 06:11 bonifaceviii wrote:
If Jews were the self-aware, technologically-dominant races they'd be doing the same to us Nazis in a heartbeat.
Think of it as pre-empting the Jewish revolution.
As I mentioned above, just because we can doesn't necessarily mean we should. There are good masters and there are bad masters. A dog owner doesn't need to beat their dogs.
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I am concerned about the survival of myself, then my direct family, then my local community, then extended community, then the world.
Animals come in at the bottom as long as their survival doesn't impact my own.
I would not eat meat because it costs ridiculous amounts of natural resources to produce, hurting my extended community.
I would eat meat because it makes me happy, which is critical to my own survival.
If, for example, you offered me the choice of not eating meat and using that money to take non-damaging/addictive narcotics, I would do that. But in the absence of any additional happiness, I will eat meat.
If you derive more happiness out of feeling ethically responsible or morally superior to others than from eating meat, all the more power to you.
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On February 10 2011 06:14 Tony Campolo wrote:
A dog owner doesn't need to beat their dogs.
But he does have to humiliate and intimidate the dog in order to establish pack rank. It's dog psychology 101.
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The core idea behind equality is the fact that we are all actually fucking equal. We don't hesitate to degrade human beings that are in fact, not equal, who have proven so through there actions (and not such trivialities such as race or gender) and you can sure bet a retarded man will not be eligible for jobs that he is not mentally capable of holding down.
Whats the core idea behind species equality, considering that we are blatantly not equal?
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You try to push your beliefs on to others and you wonder why you are being attacked ? I have never seen meat eaters push vegetarians to consume meat and yet I am constantly bombarded by vegetarians/vegans who criticize my way of life.
This following statement just takes the cake.
"All veganism requires is a change in diet - it does not require going out and trampling on human rights.
"
are you serious? Its just a change in diet right? you realize revolutions have started over much lesser offenses on human rights such as taxation on tea and gun ownership and you think that forcing people to go vegan is not an infringement of human rights?
There is a reason specie-cism (not sure thats even a word) is not in the same league as sexism or racism. Animals are not human. What are you going to implement next? you going to have some horses run the 100 meters or kangaroos doing the long jump?
Its not that animal rights don't matter, its that they don't matter as much as my human rights. An animal's right to not get killed is not as important as my right to grill its filet in butter made from its milk.
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On February 10 2011 06:22 Half wrote:
The core idea behind equality is the fact that we are all actually fucking equal. We don't hesitate to degrade human beings that are in fact, not equal, who have proven so through there actions (and not such trivialities such as race or gender) and you can sure bet a retarded man will not be eligible for jobs that he is not mentally capable of holding down.
Whats the core idea behind species equality, considering that we are blatantly not equal?
It doesn't necessarily mean equal status - but at least the minimum rights of not being tortured and alleviating as much of their suffering as possible to the extent that we are responsible for it (e.g. keeping pigs and chickens in cages in factory farms).
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On February 10 2011 06:31 Tony Campolo wrote:
It doesn't necessarily mean equal status - but at least the minimum rights of not being tortured and alleviating as much of their suffering as possible to the extent that we are responsible for it (e.g. keeping pigs and chickens in cages in factory farms).
So you should be fine with organic meat farming and slaughter techniques that meet the SPCA's guidelines, right?
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On February 10 2011 06:14 Tony Campolo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 06:11 bonifaceviii wrote:
If Jews were the self-aware, technologically-dominant races they'd be doing the same to us Nazis in a heartbeat.
Think of it as pre-empting the Jewish revolution. As I mentioned above, just because we can doesn't necessarily mean we should. There are good masters and there are bad masters. A dog owner doesn't need to beat their dogs.
Misquoting is a very mature way to argue.
I like meat.
Most wild animals die of starvation or by getting eaten alive.
In the grand scheme of things, guess how many billions and billions of animals have suffered and died painful deaths in the history of the earth.
Our way of life has only existed for a very very short amount of time in comparison.
Just because we humans don't like pain and think that it is bad to cause pain to others, doesn't mean that it isn't a completely natural thing to kill other animals and make them suffer for our well-being if necessary.
Today we have very efficient methods of doing that, which seems to be necessary to uphold the need for meat of humanity.
Everyone is free to decide to not eat meat, just don't run around and expect us to actually care.
edit: Regarding your point of humans treating each other better than they treat animals. You are wrong. People tortured and killed each other all day long since the dawn of mankind. And it's still happening.
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On February 10 2011 06:22 lixlix wrote:
You try to push your beliefs on to others and you wonder why you are being attacked ? I have never seen meat eaters push vegetarians to consume meat and yet I am constantly bombarded by vegetarians/vegans who criticize my way of life.
This following statement just takes the cake.
"All veganism requires is a change in diet - it does not require going out and trampling on human rights.
"
are you serious? Its just a change in diet right? you realize revolutions have started over much lesser offenses on human rights such as taxation on tea and gun ownership and you think that forcing people to go vegan is not an infringement of human rights?
There is a reason specie-cism (not sure thats even a word) is not in the same league as sexism or racism. Animals are not human. What are you going to implement next? you going to have some horses run the 100 meters or kangaroos doing the long jump?
Its not that animal rights don't matter, its that they don't matter as much as my human rights. An animal's right to not get killed is not as important as my right to grill its filet in butter made from its milk.
The difference between advocating for meat-eating and advocating against it is that one of those positions causes unnecessary suffering. If you were purchasing from slave labour made products, then it would be ridiculous for someone who is buying those products to be advocating for more slave labour. On the other hand it would be entirely expected that those who are fighting against slave labour advocate against people purchasing such products.
Meat-eating is your right under the law. But at one stage it was also legal to mistreat black people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciecism
And you have an illogical understanding of rights. Giving someone rights doesn't mean you have to let them have all the other luxuries that come with rights, such as competing in professional sports, in your example. Animals only require one right - the right not to be treated as property. Just because you give a black person the right not to be racially attacked, does not mean you necessarily have to give them a sponsorship to go to university.
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On February 10 2011 06:22 lixlix wrote:
You try to push your beliefs on to others and you wonder why you are being attacked ? I have never seen meat eaters push vegetarians to consume meat and yet I am constantly bombarded by vegetarians/vegans who criticize my way of life.
This following statement just takes the cake.
"All veganism requires is a change in diet - it does not require going out and trampling on human rights.
"
are you serious? Its just a change in diet right? you realize revolutions have started over much lesser offenses on human rights such as taxation on tea and gun ownership and you think that forcing people to go vegan is not an infringement of human rights?
There is a reason specie-cism (not sure thats even a word) is not in the same league as sexism or racism. Animals are not human. What are you going to implement next? you going to have some horses run the 100 meters or kangaroos doing the long jump?
Its not that animal rights don't matter, its that they don't matter as much as my human rights. An animal's right to not get killed is not as important as my right to grill its filet in butter made from its milk.
What are you even saying. Becoming a vegetarian or vegan is one of the most criticized things ever. As soon as you become one or even say your thinking about it people get up in arms everywhere. Friends, family, strangers, every one tries to convince you otherwise.
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On February 10 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 06:31 Tony Campolo wrote:
It doesn't necessarily mean equal status - but at least the minimum rights of not being tortured and alleviating as much of their suffering as possible to the extent that we are responsible for it (e.g. keeping pigs and chickens in cages in factory farms). So you should be fine with organic meat farming and slaughter techniques that meet the SPCA's guidelines, right?
That's a step in the right direction. What it comes down to is what is necessary. Meat is not necessary to ensure our survival. All the nutrients that can be obtained from meat can be obtained from other sources (e.g. protein and iron from nuts).
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"Specie-cism"?
Speciesism.
Read some ethics and this issue will make a lot more sense to you, OP.
You're being influenced by what is essentially propaganda aimed at invoking pity and sympathy towards animals.
I do believe animals, depending on the kind, have some general rights and inviolabilities (I don't believe a scorpion is equivalent to a dog, per se). I do not believe that animals have the same general rights and inviolabilities human beings do. I do not believe the ability to feel pain and the ability to have an abstract concern for one's future (no one doubts animals are capable of either of those) grants them rights similar to that of human beings.
I don't believe you're "anti-human rights", but my eating meat doesn't make me unethical, either. In the same way as you, I have yet to hear a convincing argument that humans shouldn't eat meat on moral/ethical grounds.
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On February 10 2011 06:33 101TFP wrote:
Misquoting is a very mature way to argue.
I like meat.
Most wild animals die of starvation or by getting eaten alive.
In the grand scheme of things, guess how many billions and billions of animals have suffered and died painful deaths in the history of the earth.
Our way of life has only existed for a very very short amount of time in comparison.
Just because we humans don't like pain and think that it is bad to cause pain to others, doesn't mean that it isn't a completely natural thing to kill other animals and make them suffer for our well-being if necessary.
Today we have very efficient methods of doing that, which seems to be necessary to uphold the need for meat of humanity.
Everyone is free to decide to not eat meat, just don't run around and expect us to actually care.
edit: Regarding your point of humans treating each other better than they treat animals. You are wrong. People tortured and killed each other all day long since the dawn of mankind. And it's still happening.
Not true. Most animals die of intensive factory farm practices and in the slaughterhouses - billions per day. In the grand scheme of things, this suffering can be reduced - just because many people have died in wars in the past doesn't justify wars today.
Take for example the fact that thousands of Africans are dying daily from malnutrition and starvation. It would be better for less of them to have children, as these children are simply being born and living lives full of suffering. Likewise for the billions of animals that are produced (via artificial insemination) on factory farms, it would be better if they were not created in the first place. If we can reduce that suffering, then we ought to.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.peaceproject.com/graphics/dvds/larger/DVD117.jpg)
