• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:41
CET 17:41
KST 01:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies1ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server? How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2001 users

Ladder Blog #11

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 20:53:04
August 16 2011 20:52 GMT
#1
Haven't done this in a while. Excuses is that I started losing a lot, when I started winning I got lazy and didn't write any. Anyway, here's a new one.

+ Show Spoiler [ZvT] +
I've had soooo much trouble with 15 hatch. It's sooooo hard to hold off 2 rax pressure, it's insane. I've lost to it so many times since I've started using the build. I think I've finally gotten down how to defend though.

1- Always keep your second overlord above your natural. To scout anything he brings in, keeps track of his unit numbers.
2- Don't go gas early. I don't have enough resources to defend if I do.
3- Keep a drone on the scout scv.
4- If the scout scv moves towards the natural, pull a few drones to the natural to defend against bunkers. If no bunkers, just wait until the natural is finished to mine.
5- Don't undermake zerglings, don't overmake zerglings. Souds simple, but this is the hardest part.

I've lost to a marauder hellion bust, several marine/hellion elevators, and anything else you care to name (except banshees. I actually haven't seen one in a while but I'm confident against those anyway. Tis been rough, but I think I'm solidifying. A bit. Still really hard to defend against all-ins. If a game gets into late game, I'm usually golden. Obviously since I try to go into late-game every game. The only reason I actually lose is I make too many drones. Then again, that's the only reason I win a lot of the time too.

I'm thinking of just using the 11 pool I use in ZvT instead. It's just as economic and it's sure as hell safer than 15 hatch. An alternative would be getting the pool up sooner. Instead of 17 supply, I'd do it around 16. I don't really want to resort to the this solution though.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ] +
I've been doing a lot of 1 base roach ling timing pushes and winning easily like that, since most people just don't get enough units. If not, I generally have a big enough econ to go into late game. I've been winning a lot of games.

And then I ran into this Korean player on 1on1 obs metalopolis.

I felt so outclassed that game. Every thing he could've done well, he did. He played so perfectly and I got absolutely demolished, it wasn't even close. After that game, I really felt like I had so much more to learn. It was eye-opening.

Now, I think I'm going to lean towards more drone focused early game. Same build as before, just sneak a few drones in before everything. Also, I need to keep reviewing Sen's daily on ZvZ. I still need to nail down the build orders. Thankfully, I got the NASL replay pack so I can reference those.

Mutas are really interesting imo. After watching a few Nestea games, I think I got a general idea of how to use them properly. I still don't understand the details. I wish Day9 would do a daily on it.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvP] +
So before in ZvP, I didn't really memorize timings at all, I just went on instinct. Then I watched a daily where Day9 mentioned a timing. After a 1 gate expo, I'm safe for around 2 minutes until 8 minutes. I generalized and put a few arbitrary timings for other builds like 3 gate expo and forge fe. Suddenly, I'm doing a lot better.

I've been trying out 15 pool on Shakuras, since Protoss tends to go for forge FE most of the time. The logic is that I need 3 bases early. The 11 pool build I do gets me a lot of drones, but if I rush a third base, then I'm cutting drones and not really using the larva that I produce early on. But with a 15 hatch, I feel a lot less safe for some reason. Maybe I'm just not comfortable with it.

Instead, I think I'm going to go for Destiny's 11 pool instead of my version. HIs version gets a later queen, a faster natural hatch, and I assume I can get a faster third hatch since the queen's later.

I watched the Ret ZvP daily and oh man, he looks absolutely dominant. It's crazy. A problem I think I have is knowing when to stop drone production. Basically, I just stop without even counting. Well, actually, I don't even stop. I just start to make less. I think that might be a problem I have. I'll take a look at that later.


You know how I waited a day to do my placement, just so I could get placed into a weaker division?

[image loading]

Last season I was consistently around 6th. Now, I'm lower T_T. I know it doesn't mean anything but just a few losses and I could lose my shiny top 8 icon.

So, I'll put up this poll again since last blog wasn't really that conclusive. I want to change my name folks, you decide =).

Poll: New name

Emiya (11)
 
38%

Avalon (10)
 
34%

Caliburn (6)
 
21%

Clarent (2)
 
7%

29 total votes

Your vote: New name

(Vote): Avalon
(Vote): Caliburn
(Vote): Clarent
(Vote): Emiya



+ Show Spoiler [ Blogs #1-10] +
Blog #1
Blog #2
Blog #3
Blog #4
Blog #5
Blog #6
Blog #7
Blog #8
Blog #9
Blog #10


***
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 20:58 GMT
#2
Dude, of course it's hard to hold 2rax pressure when you friggin hatch at 15 (standard) but pool at 17?!?!?!

Just sayin
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 20:59 GMT
#3
Day9's been doing dailies of Ret going 15/17 so I figured I'd try it. Seemed easy enough when he did it.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 21:01 GMT
#4
Just 15 15. Youre safe vs 2rax with good control. 15 14 on maps with shorter rush distances.

You can 15 17 ok vs gas builds (ie. not 2rax).
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 21:04 GMT
#5
Hmm, when would you drone scout usually? I know I don't want to go too early but I need to scout at the 2 rax imo.
TheRealNanMan
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1471 Posts
August 16 2011 21:07 GMT
#6
This is my first time checking out your ladder blogs and I've become a fan. Very interesting write up for the match ups, i'm excited to your progress in the future ^^
Sc2 Caster | Host of Sc2 Up & Coming | The Godfather of Team LXG | Sc2 Historian | Youtube.com/NanMan | Twitch.tv/TheRealNanMan | Twitter.com/TheRealNanMan |
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 21:08 GMT
#7
The only way to scout the 2rax early enough is 9 scout and only works on 2player maps. That said, why 9 scout just so you can 15/17, probably no net benefit that way. I think you basically base your decision on meta-gaming your opponent. If you know your opponent never 2rax's basically (ie. they favour gas openings). Ret doesnt drone scout, relying on overlords, he doesnt even place his 2nd ovie at the nat. In all honesty, why not just 15/15 or 15/14, its what all the koreans do anyways.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 21:10 GMT
#8
I'm a droney kind of guy . That said, I guess I will switch to 15/15

Thanks for the support NanMan!
Aletheia27
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States267 Posts
August 16 2011 21:22 GMT
#9
As others have said get faster pool against 2 rax I also found delaying my second queen for more lings helps a ton too....Usually I scout on 14 and only if they're in the last position on a 4 player map will i be too late to find them.

Against the elevator strats i've found getting an extra queen for creep (looking at leenock vs boxer games) helps a ton. Sometimes I'll get 2 and pull most of my guys off gas if terran's going for a late expand, or at least moving to his expo late. Creep spread and focus firing medivacs helps a ton. ANd the extra transfuses are amazing vs one base terran all-ins

I am that I am
lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
August 16 2011 21:28 GMT
#10
don't do avalon it's a beach.... do caliburn
Jh
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Finland151 Posts
August 16 2011 21:45 GMT
#11
all the names are terrible

except emiya, it's sounds like hot exotic chick
what
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
August 16 2011 23:10 GMT
#12
On August 17 2011 05:58 Entropic wrote:
Dude, of course it's hard to hold 2rax pressure when you friggin hatch at 15 (standard) but pool at 17?!?!?!

Just sayin


He's right, standard is 15/15 for two rax or 15/16 for hellion/anything else really. 15/17 is pushing it, besides it's not that economical since your queens are out later.

if you 15/15 it's actually pretty easy to hold. It's only hard on Xel'naga or DQ really...or that lava map I don't play on anymore

Also spine crawlers are your friend.
Try another route paperboy.
Sephy90
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1785 Posts
August 16 2011 23:42 GMT
#13
Emiya Shiro? ^____^ cool blog collection, good writeups and other than Emiya and Avalon, the other names are ugly. DON'T GET DISCOURAGED just continue to have fun, yell and be loud seriously it makes gaming so fun.
"So I turned the lights off at night and practiced by myself"
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
August 16 2011 23:57 GMT
#14
can you upload replays of good executed 2 rax? Whenever i go 2 rax vs a hatch first build i never seem to do any damage (3 drones tops), or do you consider the hard part the fact he forces too many lings?
Also you are a BW legend! you are the guy with the epic FFA's casted by that caster! i vote for no change
dr Helvetica <3
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 17 2011 00:37 GMT
#15
Also just a tip vs the slayers style elevator strats. Sniping or at least doing enough dmg to it to fend the initial medivac off is key so you'll want to do an opening that gets at least 3 or 4 queens (3 or 4 is upon your preference, Ret does 3, Dimaga does 4, DRG does only 2 queens doing his fast muta build but with 2 spines). Creeping up your base and especially the cliff areas where they are likely to elevator will help tons as well.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 00:59:11
August 17 2011 00:56 GMT
#16
On August 17 2011 05:59 neobowman wrote:
Day9's been doing dailies of Ret going 15/17 so I figured I'd try it. Seemed easy enough when he did it.


I 15/17 standard as well, and I'd say ZvT is my best matchup.

I send my 13th drone as a scout. If I see fast gas that indicates reactor hellion, I get my pool at 18 and start my extractor when the pool finishes, and get creep tumors with both of my first queens. I don't think you can afford gas any earlier than that. If they are 2raxing, or if I scout 1rax no gas (which could easily be a hidden or proxy rax) I pool at 17 and as soon as I hit 18 supply I send out a drone to start looking for any bunker shenanigans. Either way I build a sunk as soon as my pool/hatch at nat finishes and drone hard, with one pair of lings to scout and kill their scout.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 17 2011 01:37 GMT
#17
On August 17 2011 08:57 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
can you upload replays of good executed 2 rax? Whenever i go 2 rax vs a hatch first build i never seem to do any damage (3 drones tops), or do you consider the hard part the fact he forces too many lings?
Also you are a BW legend! you are the guy with the epic FFA's casted by that caster! i vote for no change

Haha, thanks, but my Bnet name is actually isn't neobowman :p. But then you would be asking me to change it to that, wouldn't you?

I'll try to find some. Most of my games though, I don't really think about how my opponent did, just how I could've done better.
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
August 17 2011 11:24 GMT
#18
ty, i vote for Neobowman :D
dr Helvetica <3
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
12:00
Monday #66
WardiTV1156
TKL 327
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 354
TKL 327
ProTech135
Liquid`VortiX 124
DivinesiaTV 13
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 2614
Larva 942
Soma 872
Light 770
Mini 669
Stork 390
Snow 334
Rush 267
firebathero 196
ggaemo 136
[ Show more ]
Sharp 103
PianO 92
sorry 53
Aegong 43
Yoon 34
Terrorterran 29
Movie 28
soO 26
Bale 26
910 22
Sacsri 12
Dota 2
syndereN1117
XcaliburYe723
Counter-Strike
adren_tv102
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor222
Other Games
Grubby6507
B2W.Neo1243
crisheroes346
Fuzer 337
Lowko300
FrodaN288
hiko256
QueenE94
Mew2King79
nookyyy 58
Trikslyr34
ToD20
RushiSC19
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV1287
League of Legends
• Nemesis2916
• TFBlade758
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
19m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

YSL S2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.