• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:34
CEST 14:34
KST 21:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview25Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates7GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th12Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Cheeseadelphia 2025 - Open Bracket LAN!
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion I made an ASL quiz [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 1
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 25739 users

Ladder Blog #11

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 20:53:04
August 16 2011 20:52 GMT
#1
Haven't done this in a while. Excuses is that I started losing a lot, when I started winning I got lazy and didn't write any. Anyway, here's a new one.

+ Show Spoiler [ZvT] +
I've had soooo much trouble with 15 hatch. It's sooooo hard to hold off 2 rax pressure, it's insane. I've lost to it so many times since I've started using the build. I think I've finally gotten down how to defend though.

1- Always keep your second overlord above your natural. To scout anything he brings in, keeps track of his unit numbers.
2- Don't go gas early. I don't have enough resources to defend if I do.
3- Keep a drone on the scout scv.
4- If the scout scv moves towards the natural, pull a few drones to the natural to defend against bunkers. If no bunkers, just wait until the natural is finished to mine.
5- Don't undermake zerglings, don't overmake zerglings. Souds simple, but this is the hardest part.

I've lost to a marauder hellion bust, several marine/hellion elevators, and anything else you care to name (except banshees. I actually haven't seen one in a while but I'm confident against those anyway. Tis been rough, but I think I'm solidifying. A bit. Still really hard to defend against all-ins. If a game gets into late game, I'm usually golden. Obviously since I try to go into late-game every game. The only reason I actually lose is I make too many drones. Then again, that's the only reason I win a lot of the time too.

I'm thinking of just using the 11 pool I use in ZvT instead. It's just as economic and it's sure as hell safer than 15 hatch. An alternative would be getting the pool up sooner. Instead of 17 supply, I'd do it around 16. I don't really want to resort to the this solution though.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ] +
I've been doing a lot of 1 base roach ling timing pushes and winning easily like that, since most people just don't get enough units. If not, I generally have a big enough econ to go into late game. I've been winning a lot of games.

And then I ran into this Korean player on 1on1 obs metalopolis.

I felt so outclassed that game. Every thing he could've done well, he did. He played so perfectly and I got absolutely demolished, it wasn't even close. After that game, I really felt like I had so much more to learn. It was eye-opening.

Now, I think I'm going to lean towards more drone focused early game. Same build as before, just sneak a few drones in before everything. Also, I need to keep reviewing Sen's daily on ZvZ. I still need to nail down the build orders. Thankfully, I got the NASL replay pack so I can reference those.

Mutas are really interesting imo. After watching a few Nestea games, I think I got a general idea of how to use them properly. I still don't understand the details. I wish Day9 would do a daily on it.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvP] +
So before in ZvP, I didn't really memorize timings at all, I just went on instinct. Then I watched a daily where Day9 mentioned a timing. After a 1 gate expo, I'm safe for around 2 minutes until 8 minutes. I generalized and put a few arbitrary timings for other builds like 3 gate expo and forge fe. Suddenly, I'm doing a lot better.

I've been trying out 15 pool on Shakuras, since Protoss tends to go for forge FE most of the time. The logic is that I need 3 bases early. The 11 pool build I do gets me a lot of drones, but if I rush a third base, then I'm cutting drones and not really using the larva that I produce early on. But with a 15 hatch, I feel a lot less safe for some reason. Maybe I'm just not comfortable with it.

Instead, I think I'm going to go for Destiny's 11 pool instead of my version. HIs version gets a later queen, a faster natural hatch, and I assume I can get a faster third hatch since the queen's later.

I watched the Ret ZvP daily and oh man, he looks absolutely dominant. It's crazy. A problem I think I have is knowing when to stop drone production. Basically, I just stop without even counting. Well, actually, I don't even stop. I just start to make less. I think that might be a problem I have. I'll take a look at that later.


You know how I waited a day to do my placement, just so I could get placed into a weaker division?

[image loading]

Last season I was consistently around 6th. Now, I'm lower T_T. I know it doesn't mean anything but just a few losses and I could lose my shiny top 8 icon.

So, I'll put up this poll again since last blog wasn't really that conclusive. I want to change my name folks, you decide =).

Poll: New name

Emiya (11)
 
38%

Avalon (10)
 
34%

Caliburn (6)
 
21%

Clarent (2)
 
7%

29 total votes

Your vote: New name

(Vote): Avalon
(Vote): Caliburn
(Vote): Clarent
(Vote): Emiya



+ Show Spoiler [ Blogs #1-10] +
Blog #1
Blog #2
Blog #3
Blog #4
Blog #5
Blog #6
Blog #7
Blog #8
Blog #9
Blog #10


***
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 20:58 GMT
#2
Dude, of course it's hard to hold 2rax pressure when you friggin hatch at 15 (standard) but pool at 17?!?!?!

Just sayin
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 20:59 GMT
#3
Day9's been doing dailies of Ret going 15/17 so I figured I'd try it. Seemed easy enough when he did it.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 21:01 GMT
#4
Just 15 15. Youre safe vs 2rax with good control. 15 14 on maps with shorter rush distances.

You can 15 17 ok vs gas builds (ie. not 2rax).
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 21:04 GMT
#5
Hmm, when would you drone scout usually? I know I don't want to go too early but I need to scout at the 2 rax imo.
TheRealNanMan
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1471 Posts
August 16 2011 21:07 GMT
#6
This is my first time checking out your ladder blogs and I've become a fan. Very interesting write up for the match ups, i'm excited to your progress in the future ^^
Sc2 Caster | Host of Sc2 Up & Coming | The Godfather of Team LXG | Sc2 Historian | Youtube.com/NanMan | Twitch.tv/TheRealNanMan | Twitter.com/TheRealNanMan |
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 16 2011 21:08 GMT
#7
The only way to scout the 2rax early enough is 9 scout and only works on 2player maps. That said, why 9 scout just so you can 15/17, probably no net benefit that way. I think you basically base your decision on meta-gaming your opponent. If you know your opponent never 2rax's basically (ie. they favour gas openings). Ret doesnt drone scout, relying on overlords, he doesnt even place his 2nd ovie at the nat. In all honesty, why not just 15/15 or 15/14, its what all the koreans do anyways.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 16 2011 21:10 GMT
#8
I'm a droney kind of guy . That said, I guess I will switch to 15/15

Thanks for the support NanMan!
Aletheia27
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States267 Posts
August 16 2011 21:22 GMT
#9
As others have said get faster pool against 2 rax I also found delaying my second queen for more lings helps a ton too....Usually I scout on 14 and only if they're in the last position on a 4 player map will i be too late to find them.

Against the elevator strats i've found getting an extra queen for creep (looking at leenock vs boxer games) helps a ton. Sometimes I'll get 2 and pull most of my guys off gas if terran's going for a late expand, or at least moving to his expo late. Creep spread and focus firing medivacs helps a ton. ANd the extra transfuses are amazing vs one base terran all-ins

I am that I am
lantz
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States762 Posts
August 16 2011 21:28 GMT
#10
don't do avalon it's a beach.... do caliburn
Jh
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Finland151 Posts
August 16 2011 21:45 GMT
#11
all the names are terrible

except emiya, it's sounds like hot exotic chick
what
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
August 16 2011 23:10 GMT
#12
On August 17 2011 05:58 Entropic wrote:
Dude, of course it's hard to hold 2rax pressure when you friggin hatch at 15 (standard) but pool at 17?!?!?!

Just sayin


He's right, standard is 15/15 for two rax or 15/16 for hellion/anything else really. 15/17 is pushing it, besides it's not that economical since your queens are out later.

if you 15/15 it's actually pretty easy to hold. It's only hard on Xel'naga or DQ really...or that lava map I don't play on anymore

Also spine crawlers are your friend.
Try another route paperboy.
Sephy90
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1785 Posts
August 16 2011 23:42 GMT
#13
Emiya Shiro? ^____^ cool blog collection, good writeups and other than Emiya and Avalon, the other names are ugly. DON'T GET DISCOURAGED just continue to have fun, yell and be loud seriously it makes gaming so fun.
"So I turned the lights off at night and practiced by myself"
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
August 16 2011 23:57 GMT
#14
can you upload replays of good executed 2 rax? Whenever i go 2 rax vs a hatch first build i never seem to do any damage (3 drones tops), or do you consider the hard part the fact he forces too many lings?
Also you are a BW legend! you are the guy with the epic FFA's casted by that caster! i vote for no change
dr Helvetica <3
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 17 2011 00:37 GMT
#15
Also just a tip vs the slayers style elevator strats. Sniping or at least doing enough dmg to it to fend the initial medivac off is key so you'll want to do an opening that gets at least 3 or 4 queens (3 or 4 is upon your preference, Ret does 3, Dimaga does 4, DRG does only 2 queens doing his fast muta build but with 2 spines). Creeping up your base and especially the cliff areas where they are likely to elevator will help tons as well.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 00:59:11
August 17 2011 00:56 GMT
#16
On August 17 2011 05:59 neobowman wrote:
Day9's been doing dailies of Ret going 15/17 so I figured I'd try it. Seemed easy enough when he did it.


I 15/17 standard as well, and I'd say ZvT is my best matchup.

I send my 13th drone as a scout. If I see fast gas that indicates reactor hellion, I get my pool at 18 and start my extractor when the pool finishes, and get creep tumors with both of my first queens. I don't think you can afford gas any earlier than that. If they are 2raxing, or if I scout 1rax no gas (which could easily be a hidden or proxy rax) I pool at 17 and as soon as I hit 18 supply I send out a drone to start looking for any bunker shenanigans. Either way I build a sunk as soon as my pool/hatch at nat finishes and drone hard, with one pair of lings to scout and kill their scout.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
August 17 2011 01:37 GMT
#17
On August 17 2011 08:57 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
can you upload replays of good executed 2 rax? Whenever i go 2 rax vs a hatch first build i never seem to do any damage (3 drones tops), or do you consider the hard part the fact he forces too many lings?
Also you are a BW legend! you are the guy with the epic FFA's casted by that caster! i vote for no change

Haha, thanks, but my Bnet name is actually isn't neobowman :p. But then you would be asking me to change it to that, wouldn't you?

I'll try to find some. Most of my games though, I don't really think about how my opponent did, just how I could've done better.
TheAwesomeAll
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands1609 Posts
August 17 2011 11:24 GMT
#18
ty, i vote for Neobowman :D
dr Helvetica <3
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
SC Evo League
12:00
#13
BRAT_OK 56
LiquipediaDiscussion
Bellum Gens Elite
10:00
Stara Zagora 2025 Day 4
ShoWTimE vs SerralLIVE!
Clem vs Zoun
Bellum Gens Elite3062
ComeBackTV 1318
TaKeTV 602
IndyStarCraft 345
3DClanTV 174
Rex130
CosmosSc2 97
LiquipediaDiscussion
CranKy Ducklings
10:00
Master Swan Open #92
CranKy Ducklings104
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Bellum Gens Elite3062
IndyStarCraft 345
Hui .238
Rex 130
CosmosSc2 97
ProTech75
BRAT_OK 56
MindelVK 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 37817
Calm 26897
Sea 4899
Bisu 2771
Jaedong 2301
Hyuk 996
Mini 341
BeSt 278
EffOrt 250
Last 224
[ Show more ]
Zeus 193
Soulkey 140
Mind 121
PianO 113
Hyun 91
ZerO 72
sorry 52
Sea.KH 44
Sacsri 22
GoRush 21
Icarus 16
Noble 12
IntoTheRainbow 9
SilentControl 9
ajuk12(nOOB) 8
Dota 2
qojqva1875
XcaliburYe696
League of Legends
KnowMe42
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor254
Other Games
singsing2361
B2W.Neo1048
DeMusliM550
Mlord324
Lowko193
Mew2King190
XaKoH 126
Beastyqt118
ArmadaUGS27
ZerO(Twitch)11
rubinoeu8
Pyrionflax0
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream6002
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 24
StarCraft 2
angryscii 18
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 7
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 13
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis6327
• Jankos1244
Upcoming Events
Fire Grow Cup
2h 26m
CSO Contender
4h 26m
BSL: ProLeague
5h 26m
StRyKeR vs MadiNho
Cross vs UltrA
TT1 vs JDConan
Bonyth vs Sziky
Replay Cast
11h 26m
SOOP Global
14h 26m
Creator vs Rogue
Cure vs Classic
SOOP
20h 26m
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
21h 26m
AllThingsProtoss
22h 26m
Fire Grow Cup
1d 2h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 5h
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
1d 11h
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
GSL Code S
3 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
4 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL Code S
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.