• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:30
CEST 17:30
KST 00:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Who will win EWC 2025? Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Corsair Pursuit Micro? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pro gamer house photos Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 775 users

Ladder Blog #8

Blogs > neobowman
Post a Reply
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 21:37 GMT
#1
Just got back from a two day trip (left Friday morning got back Sunday afternoon) and started laddering again. Took me some time to readjust and I hovered between rank 10 and 8 for quite a while but I think I've pretty practiced now.

+ Show Spoiler [ZvT] +
Tal'darim altar is a really unique map in many regards. As a mapper, when it was first released as a test map, I hated it. Way too Zerg favoured (or so I thought), what with its huge distances and wide open expansion layout. I considered it one of the worst maps out of the pack.

Now, it's not so much imbalanced, but it's still a really unique map compared to the Blizzard maps. I don't think this is a bad thing at all (since blizzard maps suck) but it forces me to handle with some unusual stuff that I don't have to deal with on other maps.

My problem of the day is dealing with Hellion openings. On most maps, I just deal with them using speedlings. If that doesn't work, I add more speedlings. I only go roaches if I see blue flame. On Tal'darim, the problem is that you can't block the ramp with two queens and the natural is really wide open. On most maps, Terran don't go extreme heavy hellions to open because they know that even if they kill all my speedlings, they won't be able to get up the ramp and two spine crawlers protect the natural so they'll have a bunch of hellions that are relatively useless.

On Tal'darim, hellions run around to the back of the natural, terrorize my drones, then when they're done, they just run into my main. They're in such numbers that they can even take out my queens.

It seems I'm at an impasse. Basically, I'm forced to go roaches.

I've experimented around with some timings. I haven't had many games to test (since it's a specific matchup and map). The first time I tried roaches, I got it around 30 supply I think, and they popped way too late to defend against the harass. I fended it off eventually but was defeated by a later push.

Next game I got to test, I put down my roach warren as soon as I saw the reactor and the factory. I think the timing was alright but I messed up the rest of my build because of it. I expected Blue flame since I saw a techlab factory and reactor barracks and a hellion early on (Thought he'd switch the rax and fac when blue flame finished). Turns out he was just going for a massive tank marine push off of one base and I got rolled.

I think I have the roach timing down, but I have to figure out scouting better. It's seriously practically impossible, which is why I hate ZvT.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvZ] +
So I've basically decided how I'm going to deal with things. On maps where the ramp is blockable and I can scout his natural relatively early for certain (Xel'Naga, Metal, Shattered), I'll be going for the 15 pool spine crawler opening. On other maps (Tal'Darim, Scrap Station), I'll go line/bane. The logic is, if I can see if he's going early expo and ling/bane has a chance to completely fail, then i should go safe and play econ. Otherwise, ling/bane is so powerful that I don't want to bother.

With the spine crawler opening against FE, I've thought on how to take advantage of my early gas lead to defend against any mass ling attacks. I've been thinking of using a baneling defense while expanding. I can't afford to fall too far behind but at the same time, I want to play safe. I think this is the best choice for now. In other situations, I'll probably still be going speedling muta, though I want to see if I can expand at the same time. Maybe, maybe not. I haven't had many test games for this so far.


+ Show Spoiler [ZvP] +
This has been my stable matchup for a while now. Other than random 3 gate pressure killing me and stupid 4 gate all-ins, I think I'm pretty solid. My late-game's getting better every time I play.

I think my issue is when to transition out of ling/bane muta. I need to get to ultras. The earlier the better since they're so powerful. That timing will probably sort itself out once I get around to it but there's another problem too. If the Toss adds a few immortals, suddenly the ultras suck hard. Thus, I tried out Broodlords.

I HAAAATE BROODLORDS.

Let me repeat, I HAAAAAATE BROODLORDS.

They're so slow, vulnurable, and require far too much babysitting. Sure they can take down entire bases but doesn't matter if the Toss is taking out my bases at ten times the speed.

So I need to find a way to deal with immortals while going ultras. The best option is probably infestors with neural parasite but that means I'll only be going for a few ultralisks so I can afford the gas for the infestors. That said, that doesn't mean it's going to be terrible. Infestors are pretty good after all, but I'll have to learn how to use them first. They feel clunky to me, as I said before. I suppose it'll be a good learning experience.


[image loading]

I have to leave on a mission trip to Nicaragua on the 28th so I'll be taking another long break from SC2. Will have at least one more entry before I go though.

Blog #1
Blog #2
Blog #3
Blog #4
Blog #5
Blog #6
Blog #7

andeh
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States904 Posts
July 25 2011 21:50 GMT
#2
gsl created tal darim, not blizzard.

blizzard did change it though, by adding rocks, 1 geyser, and 1 mineral patch at the third
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 25 2011 22:33 GMT
#3
Umm, yeah, didn't I make it clear in the post?

And I dislike the edits Blizz made to it, for the record.
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
July 25 2011 23:28 GMT
#4
Blizzard also widened both the main to nat choke and the choke outside of the nat. Why they would even bother to do this is beyond me as it takes more than 3 3x3 buildings to wall it so forge expanding is super risky, riskier than it should be. The rocks also mean that if a protoss denies a zerg expansion in any way (pylon block, cannon rush, etc.) then the zerg basically loses because there is no where to re-locate to.
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
July 25 2011 23:46 GMT
#5
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
July 26 2011 01:57 GMT
#6
On July 26 2011 08:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I think you should practice using speedlings and building placements more to stop helions on TD, and I think it's perfectly viable. Focus all your efforts on just not letting the helions get anywhere close to the entrance through your nat by having your spines positioned actually further from your natural hatch and also have an evolution chamber and queens blocking while your lings are positioned to intercept any helions that try to go through the spines. If you have any holes make sure the spines and lings will both be able to attack them there, and if you hide your speedlings you can really punish them for making the wrong decision.

I just don't feel changing your style when the style you like is perfectly viable is the best choice(unless they go blue flames then you should probably definitely get roaches).


Hmm, I'll give it a try. I've found that since I go 15/15 speedling expand, my natural hatchery creep comes out too slow to get good building placement, but if I try blocking the south side, there might be something I could do.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 18h 30m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mcanning 315
Rex 58
StarCraft: Brood War
Flash 3850
Jaedong 2869
Barracks 2762
BeSt 1015
Mini 896
EffOrt 774
Soma 529
Larva 492
Stork 489
firebathero 373
[ Show more ]
Snow 307
Free 180
Hyun 123
Rush 103
Mind 99
Backho 91
TY 72
Sharp 57
ToSsGirL 54
sas.Sziky 52
sorry 51
soO 43
Shinee 41
Movie 37
zelot 33
scan(afreeca) 21
Terrorterran 15
Shine 15
SilentControl 14
Yoon 13
sSak 7
ivOry 4
Dota 2
syndereN711
XcaliburYe375
420jenkins373
League of Legends
Dendi1331
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1754
markeloff231
allub128
Other Games
singsing2941
hiko1416
crisheroes517
FrodaN459
Liquid`VortiX189
KnowMe108
Trikslyr30
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 18
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 30
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV558
League of Legends
• Nemesis5838
• TFBlade603
Other Games
• Shiphtur137
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
18h 30m
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
1d 18h
Esports World Cup
2 days
Esports World Cup
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.