On July 24 2009 13:52 Aegraen wrote: Yes, the race card gets played far, far too often. It's often a one way street. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, etc. They hurt the black community so much.
We'll never have a honest debate about race in America as long as blacks call you a racist if you even dare to bring up the current state of affairs. (Out of wedlock / single mother births, crime statistics, % on entitlements, median income, drop out rates, culture, etc.)
In fact, today blacks have it better off than any other minority when it comes to preferential treatment by the government (Otherwise known as preferential discrimination or racism). Affirmative Action, Educational Pell Grants, etc.
Martin Luther Jr. King would be appalled at the state of the black community today. He wanted an America in which we were judged by our character, by the individual; Today we have it reversed. Sad, indeed.
yeah and the klan isn't lynching anyone anymore either! dang black people have it so easy these days I wish I was black
On July 24 2009 13:34 dasanivan wrote: your point of "other minorities working hard to pull themselves up from their situations"?
I was just referring to failsafe's claim that tl.net would not respond kindly. That would prove my point that any rational, scientific analysis of the racial situation would be shunned. I do admit that comment you quoted up there is pretty racist. I do concede that there are SO many outstanding black people (they are all around on my college campus), but it seems much to the fault of special "advocacy" organizations such as the NAACP and people like Rev. Jackson that promote the division and "sense of entitlement" that plagues progress.
though it's inevitable that organizations like NAACP will sometimes overreact, they do the opposite of plaguing progress.
would you rather have no immune system just because occasionally they sometimes give you painful inflammations, or even risk of death?
I don't advocate getting rid of NAACP. Advocacy groups are necessary, just like immune systems. I would propose a reform in the divisive and entitlement-seeking ideology that the NAACP seems to propagate. I think the comparison is better put: would you rather have rheumatoid arthritism or a health immune system?
On July 24 2009 13:52 Aegraen wrote: Yes, the race card gets played far, far too often. It's often a one way street. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, etc. They hurt the black community so much.
We'll never have a honest debate about race in America as long as blacks call you a racist if you even dare to bring up the current state of affairs. (Out of wedlock / single mother births, crime statistics, % on entitlements, median income, drop out rates, culture, etc.)
In fact, today blacks have it better off than any other minority when it comes to preferential treatment by the government (Otherwise known as preferential discrimination or racism). Affirmative Action, Educational Pell Grants, etc.
Martin Luther Jr. King would be appalled at the state of the black community today. He wanted an America in which we were judged by our character, by the individual; Today we have it reversed. Sad, indeed.
yeah and the klan isn't lynching anyone anymore either! dang black people have it so easy these days I wish I was black
He specifically stated he was talking from a perspective of preferential treatment by the government. Last time I checked the KKK wasn't a branch of the US Government.
On July 24 2009 13:52 Aegraen wrote: Yes, the race card gets played far, far too often. It's often a one way street. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, etc. They hurt the black community so much.
We'll never have a honest debate about race in America as long as blacks call you a racist if you even dare to bring up the current state of affairs. (Out of wedlock / single mother births, crime statistics, % on entitlements, median income, drop out rates, culture, etc.)
In fact, today blacks have it better off than any other minority when it comes to preferential treatment by the government (Otherwise known as preferential discrimination or racism). Affirmative Action, Educational Pell Grants, etc.
Martin Luther Jr. King would be appalled at the state of the black community today. He wanted an America in which we were judged by our character, by the individual; Today we have it reversed. Sad, indeed.
yeah and the klan isn't lynching anyone anymore either! dang black people have it so easy these days I wish I was black
See what I mean. We'll never have an honest debate with:
#1 White liberal Guilt (Protip: YOU WEREN'T LIVING IN THOSE DAYS) #2 Black racial card
Face it, the black community is keeping themselves down. No one else is hindering them.
We can all dream that one day the world can be like this? Back to reality for now :-(
I also realized that I ranted a lot, but offered no possible steps towards a solution. Here is what I think would be ideal: A double-blind system where benefits and aid are given on the basis of class (economic status) so that neither the people in the government deciding to give aid, nor the people receiving the aid know which race is getting aid.
I'm pretty sure that's been proposed, but it's obviously not very pragmatic. :-\
On July 24 2009 13:31 dasanivan wrote: "Why is it that Asians and Jews (one of the most historically hated minorities) make more on average and are more economically successful than Blacks?"
possibly because neither Asians nor Jews had the status of being enslaved and treated like animals for half of America's history.
what the fuck? asian's would think enslavement as a blessing with their poverty, and i know my relatives, take my dad for example, got his leg shot off from being DRAFTED into the vietnam war , ran to the U.S. after american's ditched south vietnam on ... not a boat- but a motherfucking plank of wood. and he's doing fine. whereas, on average, 1/3 of the black male population gets set up behind prison bars.
and the damn holocaust for the jews > anything the blacks had to suffer through
Besides that was quite a while ago, you know the kids of black population TODAY have just have many chances and opportunities as asians or jews. then it just goes back to the OP, with their sense of entitlement or whatever the fuck their issue is.
100% agree
While it's fair for you to respond emotionally to the post you quoted (which I didn't particularly care for either), you are implying (saying rather) that the situation is far more simple than it actually is. From reading your post it seems like the message is...
Those whose parents/ancestors suffered more have more an excuse to be deadbeats; few jews/asians comparatively are deadbeats; blacks currently suck. Surely if you are more clear you'll make a better message.
On July 24 2009 13:58 Aegraen wrote: Face it, the black community is keeping themselves down. No one else is hindering them.
You make great points and then have to sully it all with this statement.
;/ Tis' true though, unless you advocate another source that is hindering progress? Eager to hear.
There are many people today who (intentionally or not) are hindering the progress of the black community who are not in the black community. If we go back a very short period of time, there have been negative laws (as opposed to controversial affirmative action and related laws) that have severely hindered the progress of the black community. This is all post-slavery in the USA.
I'm not saying that no blame can necessarily be placed on the black community for some of its issues, but I think it is a huge mistake for you to say "No one else is hindering them."
On July 24 2009 13:52 Aegraen wrote: Yes, the race card gets played far, far too often. It's often a one way street. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, etc. They hurt the black community so much.
We'll never have a honest debate about race in America as long as blacks call you a racist if you even dare to bring up the current state of affairs. (Out of wedlock / single mother births, crime statistics, % on entitlements, median income, drop out rates, culture, etc.)
In fact, today blacks have it better off than any other minority when it comes to preferential treatment by the government (Otherwise known as preferential discrimination or racism). Affirmative Action, Educational Pell Grants, etc.
Martin Luther Jr. King would be appalled at the state of the black community today. He wanted an America in which we were judged by our character, by the individual; Today we have it reversed. Sad, indeed.
yeah and the klan isn't lynching anyone anymore either! dang black people have it so easy these days I wish I was black
He specifically stated he was talking from a perspective of preferential treatment by the government. Last time I checked the KKK wasn't a branch of the US Government.
It isn't but he says "preferential treatment from the government" as if it's sufficient to overcome the crappy socioeconomic situations a large percentage of black people are born into. As a white middle-class person, the fact that I lived in an area with a tax base that could support a modern school with good teachers probably meant more in terms of government assistance than the pittance given to those mired in inner city or rural poverty. "Preferential treatment" doesn't make up for living in an area devoid of social services and economic opportunity.
My parents were both state employees and they made far much more money doing productive work for the state than could ever be gained from entitlements programs that for some reason rich people seem to think are a lot of money.
On July 24 2009 13:34 dasanivan wrote: your point of "other minorities working hard to pull themselves up from their situations"?
I was just referring to failsafe's claim that tl.net would not respond kindly. That would prove my point that any rational, scientific analysis of the racial situation would be shunned. I do admit that comment you quoted up there is pretty racist. I do concede that there are SO many outstanding black people (they are all around on my college campus), but it seems much to the fault of special "advocacy" organizations such as the NAACP and people like Rev. Jackson that promote the division and "sense of entitlement" that plagues progress.
though it's inevitable that organizations like NAACP will sometimes overreact, they do the opposite of plaguing progress.
would you rather have no immune system just because occasionally they sometimes give you painful inflammations, or even risk of death?
I don't advocate getting rid of NAACP. Advocacy groups are necessary, just like immune systems. I would propose a reform in the divisive and entitlement-seeking ideology that the NAACP seems to propagate. I think the comparison is better put: would you rather have rheumatoid arthritism or a health immune system?
i would, of course, prefer a healthy immune system, but it can't always be guaranteed for me, can it? unlike certain diseases, this situation can of course be helped, but probably not with rants. your rant is about as explosive as the race card reactions of the blacks that you criticize.
when will there be a perfect yin and yang between each pair of races? i doubt it will happen as long as each side reacts to the other's reaction with more energy.
This is just obviously a case of who is lieing here. The officer was being a dick by not seeing the ID if that is true. Gates is being a dick if he lied about asking politely the officer to see his ID or if he resisted arrest only proving the point of his arrest. I know officers yelling, shouting etc anything that isn't clam and cooperating with them = they just don't want to listen to you anymore they hear that all the time.
Either way blah blah blah. Wouldn't it be more of racial profiling if they didn't arrest him because he didn't look like a thug. Last point Obama should not weigh in on something that he only has heard from others. He just should concentrate on his already full plate.
A black Harvard professor in what field of study? Think about that one. I definitely agree that any racially divisive ideology fosters the anti-education/pro-NBA/rap star mentality.
a) The point was you could've used a better example than a Harvard professor, for whom you have to make a subsidiary argument that "he's only successful because he's good at the very thing that keeps other blacks down", which is why I said your argument was incoherent. Think about that one. I also find it funny how you assume I'm taking a side on this issue.
b) I never said anything about a "racially divisive ideology" fostering that mentality. The mentality I'm talking about is the glorification of the flashy lifestyles they see on MTV and in sports over education.
On July 24 2009 14:06 Saddened Izzy wrote: The officer was being a dick by not seeing the ID if that is true. Gates is being a dick if he lied or if he resisted arrest only proving the point of his arrest.
Either way blah blah blah. Wouldn't it be more of racial profiling if they didn't arrest him because he didn't look like a thug. Last point Obama should not weigh in on something that he only has heard from others. He just should concentrate on his already full plate.
obama is the president. it would be bad for a president's image not to weigh in on an issue about which even starcraft enthusiasts debate.
On July 24 2009 13:34 dasanivan wrote: your point of "other minorities working hard to pull themselves up from their situations"?
I was just referring to failsafe's claim that tl.net would not respond kindly. That would prove my point that any rational, scientific analysis of the racial situation would be shunned. I do admit that comment you quoted up there is pretty racist. I do concede that there are SO many outstanding black people (they are all around on my college campus), but it seems much to the fault of special "advocacy" organizations such as the NAACP and people like Rev. Jackson that promote the division and "sense of entitlement" that plagues progress.
though it's inevitable that organizations like NAACP will sometimes overreact, they do the opposite of plaguing progress.
would you rather have no immune system just because occasionally they sometimes give you painful inflammations, or even risk of death?
I don't advocate getting rid of NAACP. Advocacy groups are necessary, just like immune systems. I would propose a reform in the divisive and entitlement-seeking ideology that the NAACP seems to propagate. I think the comparison is better put: would you rather have rheumatoid arthritism or a health immune system?
i would, of course, prefer a healthy immune system, but it can't always be guaranteed for me, can it? unlike certain diseases, this situation can of course be helped, but probably not with rants. your rant is about as explosive as the rlace card reactions of the blacks that you criticize.
when will there be a perfect yin and yang between each pair of races? i doubt it will happen as long as each side reacts to the other's reaction with more energy.
The rant is probably also just as rationally unjustified as self-entitlement, but you also have to understand, the best thing to do when you're frustrated is to rant and let it out. According to my view of history, history happens in bursts - nothing happens gradually. There needs to be some sort of strong reaction/ranting to get this flawed system fixed.
On July 24 2009 13:52 Aegraen wrote: Yes, the race card gets played far, far too often. It's often a one way street. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, etc. They hurt the black community so much.
We'll never have a honest debate about race in America as long as blacks call you a racist if you even dare to bring up the current state of affairs. (Out of wedlock / single mother births, crime statistics, % on entitlements, median income, drop out rates, culture, etc.)
In fact, today blacks have it better off than any other minority when it comes to preferential treatment by the government (Otherwise known as preferential discrimination or racism). Affirmative Action, Educational Pell Grants, etc.
Martin Luther Jr. King would be appalled at the state of the black community today. He wanted an America in which we were judged by our character, by the individual; Today we have it reversed. Sad, indeed.
yeah and the klan isn't lynching anyone anymore either! dang black people have it so easy these days I wish I was black
He specifically stated he was talking from a perspective of preferential treatment by the government. Last time I checked the KKK wasn't a branch of the US Government.
It isn't but he says "preferential treatment from the government" as if it's sufficient to overcome the crappy socioeconomic situations a large percentage of black people are born into. As a white middle-class person, the fact that I lived in an area with a tax base that could support a modern school with good teachers probably meant more in terms of government assistance than the pittance given to those mired in inner city or rural poverty. "Preferential treatment" doesn't make up for living in an area devoid of social services and economic opportunity.
My parents were both state employees and they made far much more money doing productive work for the state than could ever be gained from entitlements programs that for some reason rich people seem to think are a lot of money.
TL has a policy of not reading into what someone did not say.
He didn't say that blacks have it easy because the government treats them well. He simply talked about how the government currently treats them. Blacks certainly don't have it 'easy' overall.
On July 24 2009 13:22 ItsYoungLee wrote: Why is it that Asians and Jews (one of the most historically hated minorities) make more on average and are more economically successful than Blacks?
asian americans are seen as the model minority. they are stereotyped as hardworking and intelligent. hence, while asian americans do face discrimination, this discrimination is lessened in terms of vocation. in addition asian americans have statistically one of the highest college graduation rates, correlating with higher employment.
jews are not immediately identifiable as many are white. thus it's more difficult to discriminate against them in hiring practices.
blacks however experience much discrimination, not just in terms of hiring practices but in terms of life choices as well. at the university of pennsylvania, for example, douglas massey and the students in his undergraduate course in research methods conducted a study on how americans often identify one another racially by their speech. in massey's class were whites who spoke what is called "white middle class english", african americans who spoke a dialect known as "black english vernacular", and other african americans who spoke middle-class english with a black accent. the class investigated how voice is used to discriminate in the housing market. they designed standard identities for the class members who spoke these variants of english, assigning them similar incomes, jobs, and education they also developed a standard script and translated it into black english. the students called on 79 apartments that were advertised for rent in newspapers.
the studies found that those who spoke black english were less likely to get to talk to rental agents, who often used answering machines to screen calls. when they did get through, they were less likely to be told that an apartment was available, more likely to have to pay an application fee, and more likely to be asked about their credit history.
i used to have similar opinions to you--i thought that african americans would repeated claim racial discrimination when there really was none and while i'm sure that this is sometimes the case, recent discussions i've had with blacks on their life experiences seem to point to evidence of a highly subtle and near-invisible racist system that systematically disadvantages african americans.
one of my professors is black, and acts the stereotype as well. he grew up in the hood, sold drugs, speaks black english vernacular and works out frequently. yet he's also highly educated and eloquent, widely read, and passionate about minority and lgbt civil issues. he has told our class countless stories of personal discrimination that he had faced as a young child growing up and even current ones that occurred to him maybe only a few hours prior to him arriving at class. in one session that i'll forever remember, he demonstrated the effect racism has had on his mental state by placing a water bottle on a female student's desk and went back to his desk. he then said more or less the following:
"alright, i'm thirsty. where's my water bottle? oh there it is...but it's on someone else's desk. damn, how am i going to get it. well no biggie, i guess i can just get up and walk towards the bottle and grab it. but i have to be careful, i don't wanna walk to fast or else she might think i'm threatening her. i don't wanna grab it too fast either or it might seem like i'm stealing the bottle or even worse, reaching for her. but i can't walk too slow or it might seem suspicious and that i'm planning something so that when i finally take that bottle of water people might think it was her's and i stole it. shit, i wish i didn't leave my bottle on her desk. i can't wait until everyone leaves before i get that bottle because i'm really thirsty right now....DAMMIT! why'd i stand up? i wish i hadn't stood up. now people are looking at me and expecting me to do something. fuck i should have just brought another bottle of water."
at the end, many of us were trying to subdue our laughter. our prof looked at us and smiled, asking "now does anyone really think like that?"
we all giggled amongst ourselves, relieved that it was only a joke. a chorus of replies came, some answering "of course not" others saying "maybe, but definitely not that extreme." hell to me it sounded like downright paranoia.
my prof stopped smiling and then answered his own question. "yes they do. i know for a fact that they do...i think like that."
many of you reading this are probably thinking "rofl. that's just being paranoid." in fact, if it wasn't for the fact that i know my professor really well and i know him to be an incredibly smart, level headed man i would've left his class thinking that too.
in any case, whether you read all of that or not, i hope that before you form any conclusive opinion on the views you resented in your post, i hope you can first watch "The Color of Fear", a film by Lee Mun Wah that by gathering six men of color and two white americans to discuss racial issues, explores the ideas expressed in your post.
EPT
