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Savio you give a good example of why religion is bullshit. Almost everyone who believes in god has different beliefs and think they are right and others are wrong.
It is absolutely retarded that people can interpret their religion in so many different ways. Some people think everyone good will be saved and go to heaven. Others go to other countries and destroy cultures by scaring people into believing that the only way to heaven is through accepting jesus. I have distant family members that think if you are not a baptist and baptized as a baptist that you are going to hell.
People say they have faith in their religion, yet they pick and choose what parts of the bible they agree with. Fucking bullshit.
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On March 21 2009 15:45 Savio wrote:
That article was ridiculously long so a ridiculously long response is best but I'm not gonna give it to you. But I will share just a few things I thought about as I read it.
1. One of the first things I thought was that Jesus did restore an amputated ear in the Bible (didn't read all 9 pages of responses so I don't know if this was already brought up but I thought it was at least funny since he was always like "duuuude, no amputee has EVER gotten their body part back', like every 2 sentences).
proof? reliable evidence? anything to suggest it actually happened?
2. Everybody who has ever lost a limb HAS or at least will get it back (I don't know all the timelines perfectly, but "not a hair of the head shall be lost" when we are all eventually resurrected).
he means in the real world.
3. Most of the internet emails you get and that rabies case probably weren't direct interventions from God (maybe some were, I can't really know, but I THINK that most aren't). I think that for the most part, God sends us to an imperfect world where bad things happen by chance or choice and he intervenes in some cases for a bunch of different reasons but its definitely not with the intent of creating a great mass email. When he doesn't intervene its not because he doesn't love us, but because leaving him to come here is like leaving home and going to college. It wouldn't make sense for a loving parent to do all your studying and take all your tests for you so you can get a diploma. That is not actually helping you. Letting you mess up and get hurt and experience pain (all of which we couldn't do if we still lived with him) DOES help us become more capable and knowledgeable.
is there a reason some people get to be crippled for life in order to learn and grow while others are allowed to live a normal, happy life?
and the going off to college thing isnt analagous. any parent would step in to prevent serious or permanent harm to their child. losing a limb and failing a test are hardly equivalent.
4. We lived with God before being born (you are getting my beliefs now), and we have existed in one sense or another forever and we will exist after this for forever. What happens during a short little 70 years (in terms of physical pain suffered by us) is less important from an eternal perpective than the fact that I had an itch on my arm on May 15, 1992 for half a second. God does not think from our "little ant" perspective. Life now is not fair, but that doesn't matter cause its over as soon as it starts. And eternity is not fair, it is WAY too generous to ALL of us (even amputees).
why do you think we exist for more than our time on this planet?
5. God judges us based on our knowledge. I (unlike many Christian faiths) do not believe that those who never really learn the Gospel are damned. They have as good a chance at salvation as I do because I am judged according to my knowledge and they on theirs (if they are decent people even without knowledge of the gospel, they are in good shape).
well then you're more rational than most, congrats. the point was adressed to those who dont believe that.
Now suppose someone is living not exactly a saintly life, but on the other hand, God has never PROVEN to them that he exists. They are in decent shape. But what if their friend lost a limb, they prayed that it would grow back and it did....then what? What if they are not capable/willing to change their life? They are now judged at the same level of knowledge as a prophet but are not living a "prophet-like" life? God does not want to damn his children. That is why he gives more proof to those who are living the life of a prophet, and that is why it says you must have faith FIRST (most people WAY overestimate how much faith they have. Saying you believe does not cut it).
I think that when God made all the statements of prayers of faith being answered and able to move mountains, he was talking about an end-outcome, not an initial step in building faith.
where did the assumption come that the people making these requests werent faithful? he postulated a worthy amputee receiving prayer from the same type of people who prayed for the rabies girl and all the other supposed miracles. no reason to assume those praying for amputees are any less deseving than the people involved in other 'miracles'
7. If you do a prayer "experiment" meaning "lets see if God answers this prayer", that is by definition a prayer without faith. If there is any experiment to it the prayer is without faith. If someone (very few people ever attain this in this life) honestly KNOWS exactly what will happen and does not have a shadow of doubt in his mind, that is what God wants and he shows great miracles to these people. We call them prophets.
so no one who has ever prayed for an amputee has been sincere?
quite a coincidence to swallow.
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On March 21 2009 15:11 Savio wrote:
I've always wondered about non-believers. If I may pose them a question:
If God does not exist, why would it be wrong for me to murder someone or rape? Would anything be "wrong"?
Animals kill eachother, even of the same species (I'm not talking about for food). Animals rape eachother (does anyone here own chickens? I did growing up so I know). We don't consider it wrong for them. Why would it be wrong for a man to go to his neighbors house and kill the family and rape the women?
If it makes him happy and there is no God, is it wrong to do what makes him happy?
(if you say this is a stupid question but think the article quoted is smart, then I don't even want to debate you because you are an idiot. This is at least as valid a question as he brought up).
EDIT: I did read the whole article so no whining on that point.
because we are social creatures, we have survived and prospered through working together and helping each other. if people behave amorally that codependency falls apart and everyone loses. this has caused us to evolve a sense of morality, because those who murder and kill and rape and steal arent gonna be around very long, theyll become outcasts at best, dead at worst. gl reproducing in that state. so we have a built in morality that tells us its bad to do things we wouldnt want done to us to others. (the mechanics of evolving morality can be explained in a lot more detail but you were just asking why we think bad things are wrong so hopefully this will suffice)
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atheists don't have to be anarchists and advocates of rapists, rofl. troll alert! your own beliefs(as stated in the article) determine what is right or wrong, not God. Morals are our own creations and you can choose whether or not to follow the current trend of your community or how you were raised. Generally someone will follow suit because of what Idra said. If someone completely believes that murder is the right thing to do and does it, good for him. If the other person thinks he doesn't want to die, then he is being taken advantage of for another persons happiness, which in the case of my personal beliefs, is wrong.
my response starts off as mean but ignore that if you're serious
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United States22883 Posts
On March 21 2009 15:11 Savio wrote:
If God does not exist, why would it be wrong for me to murder someone or rape? Would anything be "wrong"?
The question applies just as much to those who believe in God. Is your concept of morality defined by God's choosing it to be moral? Or does your God support what is moral because it is inherently moral? If morality is contingent upon God, then couldn't it just as easily be conceived that rape is moral for another possible God?
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On March 21 2009 15:11 Savio wrote:
If God does not exist, why would it be wrong for me to murder someone or rape? Would anything be "wrong"?
EDIT: I did read the whole article so no whining on that point.
The only kind of religious person that I could never respect in any way or form is someone who would seriously ask that question.
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I smell a shit storm (late I know, but I just saw it).
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On March 21 2009 15:45 Savio wrote:
5. God judges us based on our knowledge. I (unlike many Christian faiths) do not believe that those who never really learn the Gospel are damned. They have as good a chance at salvation as I do because I am judged according to my knowledge and they on theirs (if they are decent people even without knowledge of the gospel, they are in good shape).
So you, with your additional knowledge of another sacred book, are held to a higher standard than other Christians?
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it cant be applied to any other topic because any other topic could respond to ridicule by defending itself. religion cant because it has no reasonable basis to argue from.
read the answer again, I was talking about how deliberately insulting the opposition wil get a bad reaction out of people. apparently your logic is every reaction = helpful
yes the existence of god is entirely unrelated to his actions in our world. the whole argument presented in the op is intended to disprove the existence of the christian god.
no one said it was entirely unrelated, its just not
no one said it was unrelated, but yes its entirely different topics.
or you could read what i said
almost all of my posts have been replies to people who disagree with me or who i disagree with. if it was 1 person going god sucks and a 2nd person going i agree god sucks and a 3rd going me too fuck god, then yes. as is no. sure some people are just posting funny images, that doesnt invalidate everyone else's posts.
fail , because a discussion by its meaning itself involves to opposing parties.
It is a circle jerk discussion , it usually ends up the same. I wasn't even talking about you anyways I was referring to the thread itself.
"Funny images" from your point of view because it certainly is offensive to the opposite party, its subjective at best and irrelevant to having a healthy discussion at worst.
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My one post in this thread:
I'm calling bullshit on the OP.
You contradict yourself a few times in there.
For example throughout the 1st half of the article, you talk about miracles to further your pt. But in the 2nf half, you ignore these same miracles as they would detract from your point.
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On March 22 2009 03:16 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 15:11 Savio wrote:
If God does not exist, why would it be wrong for me to murder someone or rape? Would anything be "wrong"?
EDIT: I did read the whole article so no whining on that point. The only kind of religious person that I could never respect in any way or form is someone who would seriously ask that question.
Like it or not he has a good point, im curious what do atheists think of how morality emerge or how it was formed in our society?
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Peeps back int he day didn't need a bible to figure out that raping, stealing, and murdering probably doesn't make a society grow stronger. The bible didn't tell us that drinking and driving is bad, but as a society we figured out we probably shouldn't allow that. It's not like the people didn't know that slitting peoples throats for fun was morally wrong before the bible. They figured that out well before.
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I disagree, read Job 3:24 , he clearly was driving some time of vehicle and the bible tell us enough to suggest he indeed wasn't sober and without identification, of course most bible scholars choose not a too literal interpretation approach to it.
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On March 22 2009 05:11 ilj.psa wrote:
Like it or not he has a good point, im curious what do atheists think of how morality emerge or how it was formed in our society?
I cant speak for all atheists, but basically, when im thinking about something, I dont think in terms of right or wrong, or what will happen to me if I do it. I just think, if I do this, will it cause someone else harm or trouble? Will it be the best thing I could do in that situation to make sure everyone walks away from it happy? Morality in my opinion isnt doing whats 'right' or 'wrong'. Its doing something that you hope someone else in your position would do for you. Again, this is just my opinion.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 22 2009 05:11 ilj.psa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2009 03:16 TheAntZ wrote:On March 21 2009 15:11 Savio wrote:
If God does not exist, why would it be wrong for me to murder someone or rape? Would anything be "wrong"?
EDIT: I did read the whole article so no whining on that point. The only kind of religious person that I could never respect in any way or form is someone who would seriously ask that question. Like it or not he has a good point, im curious what do atheists think of how morality emerge or how it was formed in our society?
Are human beings inherently born with religious knowledge? Obviously not. Then how do you think human societies evolved to the point where religion could be created, without destroying themselves first? There are no religious pretexts contained within Hammurabi's code, and even most animals are seen to exhibit most of the 10 Commandments.
It would seem to me that basing your scale of morality off a God's whim is a pretty irresponsible practice.
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On March 22 2009 06:11 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2009 05:11 ilj.psa wrote:
Like it or not he has a good point, im curious what do atheists think of how morality emerge or how it was formed in our society? I cant speak for all atheists, but basically, when im thinking about something, I dont think in terms of right or wrong, or what will happen to me if I do it. I just think, if I do this, will it cause someone else harm or trouble? Will it be the best thing I could do in that situation to make sure everyone walks away from it happy? Morality in my opinion isnt doing whats 'right' or 'wrong'. Its doing something that you hope someone else in your position would do for you. Again, this is just my opinion.
yeah i understand, but how people from the past knew whats wrong and whats right? how do they developed a moral compass if they didn't had any solid ideas of whats right/wrong.
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On March 22 2009 06:18 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2009 05:11 ilj.psa wrote:On March 22 2009 03:16 TheAntZ wrote:On March 21 2009 15:11 Savio wrote:
If God does not exist, why would it be wrong for me to murder someone or rape? Would anything be "wrong"?
EDIT: I did read the whole article so no whining on that point. The only kind of religious person that I could never respect in any way or form is someone who would seriously ask that question. Like it or not he has a good point, im curious what do atheists think of how morality emerge or how it was formed in our society? Are human beings inherently born with religious knowledge? Obviously not. Then how do you think human societies evolved to the point where religion could be created, without destroying themselves first? There are no religious pretexts contained within Hammurabi's code, and even most animals are seen to exhibit most of the 10 Commandments.It would seem to me that basing your scale of morality off a God's whim is a pretty irresponsible practice.
Disagreed, which commandments exactly?
1. "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."
2.. "Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."
3. "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."
4. "Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy reads shamor, "observe"
5. "Honor your father and your mother..."
6. "Do not murder"
7. "Do not commit adultery."
8. "Do not steal."
9. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"
10. "Do not covet your neighbor's wife"
k i'll go to sleep
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United States22883 Posts
5-8 + 10. You could throw in 2/3/9 except really the rest have no relevance with animals.
If Jesus came back today and said that all judgment was suspended, do you truly believe anarchy would ensue? There's socialization and there's self preservation. In small societies, both are extremely important. That's how people from the past "knew whats right and wrong." It was practical. As societies grow, bureaucracies are put in place to deal with a number of issues, including the inevitable moral issues that arise out of the lack of personal connections between society members.
This is something that has even been observed within the past 1,000 years with small, isolated tribes. There's a large number of practical reasons why you shouldn't kill your neighbor. That's where morality gets started. People only start philosophizing when they have the time/can afford to.
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I got a question for you believers. Isnt it written in the bible that earth was created like 10thousand years ago ?
I assume you all know this is incorrect. there are many ways that all lead to the conclusion earth is millions of years old.
How can you use anything in the bible as a form of a truth if theres already proven falsities in it ?
Religion has had its purpose just think about it in a social way.
The period where you shouldnt eat, ( called vasten in dutch dont know the english word). Falls exactly in the winter and ends in the period where the first crops start growing. Coincidence ??
I think not.
However i think we've arrived in a period where it losing its use and starts to hold us back.
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What?, animals 'murder', commit adultery (lol), steal, lie, and the offspring do not protect their parents, its the way around.
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EPT
