EPTWhy won't God heal amputees - Page 12
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 22 2009 19:31 Savio wrote: No and no. I DID read the whole article and no it is not that amazingly original. Also, I never said that atheists would have no morals but they would believe that there are no ABSOLUTE morals. They would each have their own. But when I am talking about something being "right" I do not mean that something is "right for him", I just mean "right". And without a belief in more than just this physical body, a few years trying to reproduce, its hard to come up with absolute morals (true for all people and independent of our opinions). The truth is that there is "right" and "wrong" and not just "right for him" or "wrong for her". And that is because there is a God and there is an eternity before and after this and we are eternal. Most people feel this and know this inherently but some talk themselves out of it. really is that why it was perfectly ok, not only in the eyes of the general public but in the representatives of your religion, to torture someone until they admitted to heresy, and then burn them alive for being a heretic a few hundred years ago? absolute morals huh. but as i said in my last post there is a perfectly logical reason for everyone having a similar base sense of morality. its built into our brains by evolution. humans who treated each other kindly were more likely to not be killed in revenge, to receive reciprocal kindness, and to assist their family's survival. all of this leads to people with genetics that encourage altruistic/moral behavior to be more successful than prehistorical assholes, so by natural selection humanity developed a basic moral instinct. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 22 2009 19:12 Savio wrote: I think that God put us here on earth in large part so we could learning what is right and wrong and learn to choose the right without being coerced. Some laws (of what is good) are probably unchanging to which God himself conforms (like the principles/laws of mercy and justice), while other laws define something as "good" or "bad" simply because God commanded it so. For example, in the Garden of Eden, God commanded them not to eat of a certain tree. There is nothing inherently wrong about eating off a tree but it was wrong because doing so would be blatant disobedience to our parent. Other laws have been transitory like the Law of Moses, but the law of sacrifice has always existed in one form or another (animal sacrifice, or a "broken heart and contrite spirit). In short, it goes either way. But there IS a wrong and a right that is not just what we choose it to be. For someone who doesn't believe in God (as Idra just explained), there is no real wrong or right, but just what is evolutionarily advantageous. wait, you just argued that everyone has a natural sense of morality and the fact that everyone has a similar sense is proof that its some kind of universal truth (presumably set by god). if everyone has that sense then how are we put here to learn it without being coerced? you cant argue both that god sets what is right and wrong for us AND that we learn it on our own. just because our sense of morality is based on evolutionary advantages doesnt make it any less 'real' than a morality from god would be. it allows everyone to live together for mutual benefit and generally improves quality of life. wouldnt you say thats worth more than a deity whos concerned with where you stick your penis? | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 22 2009 19:41 Savio wrote: Here is another question I have wanted to ask someone who actually believes that there is NOTHING after this life. Please take this seriously and try it out....imagine your death (which in reality isn't that far away, ask any old person)...you are lying on a bed knowing that soon you will die. What happens to you after you die? Will you float in nothingness doing nothing? What does it mean to be nothing? Can you honestly even conceive of yourself as not existing. I can't because its like imagining a space within a nothing. It seems as unatural to me as the thought of breathing water or jumping off a cliff. Its all fine and dandy when you talk about it on a forum, but when it comes time to actually do it, the truth comes out and I think that most people will realize that they always believed that there was more, but pretended not to. I think that this feeling of "naturalness" in the thought that we can't ever stop existing is there and is universal because its truth. Our spirit knows better. It was around a long time before our body was ever made. How can we (not our bodies, but US), cease to exist? are you serious? what was happening to you before you were born? dreams aside, whats happening to you while you sleep? you have no idea because you arent concious/didnt exist. you cant imagine what its like to not exist because theres nothing to imagine, you would not experience anything because you would not be able to experience anything. what reason do you have to believe your 'spirit' (whatever that is) was around before you were? do you have memories of stuff before you were born or something? | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On March 22 2009 19:12 Savio wrote: I think that God put us here on earth in large part so we could learning what is right and wrong and learn to choose the right without being coerced. Some laws (of what is good) are probably unchanging to which God himself conforms (like the principles/laws of mercy and justice) This is problematic. This would mean that morality exists independently of God. Then why would one need to follow God to understand and behave in a way that is "good" or why not simply worship towards the ultimate authority (this independent morality) that even God is subject to. If you can accept that morality might be universal, then how can you know that God is the best instructor for it? What indication do you have that it is omnibenevolent? That would seem quite impossible to me, unless God is the originator of all morality. In short, it goes either way. But there IS a wrong and a right that is not just what we choose it to be. For someone who doesn't believe in God (as Idra just explained), there is no real wrong or right, but just what is evolutionarily advantageous. Just because something is a social conception does not mean it doesn't exist. I see no reason why the Harm principle should not be adopted as a baseline for morality in this world. Even still, it's not that uncomfortable for me to believe that there is no absolute right and wrong. Certainly things like the harm principle have evolutionary advantages, but at its heart the study of ethics is a practice of men. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On March 22 2009 19:41 Savio wrote: I've thought about it quite a bit and it does feel unnatural, but so does looking at platypi. Ideas don't have merit based on feeling "natural" or comfortable.Here is another question I have wanted to ask someone who actually believes that there is NOTHING after this life. Please take this seriously and try it out....imagine your death (which in reality isn't that far away, ask any old person)...you are lying on a bed knowing that soon you will die. What happens to you after you die? Will you float in nothingness doing nothing? What does it mean to be nothing? Can you honestly even conceive of yourself as not existing. I can't because its like imagining a space within a nothing. It seems as unatural to me as the thought of breathing water or jumping off a cliff. Its all fine and dandy when you talk about it on a forum, but when it comes time to actually do it, the truth comes out and I think that most people will realize that they always believed that there was more, but pretended not to. I think that this feeling of "naturalness" in the thought that we can't ever stop existing is there and is universal because its truth. Our spirit knows better. It was around a long time before our body was ever made. How can we (not our bodies, but US), cease to exist? | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On March 22 2009 20:14 Boblion wrote: That still makes no sense for me. Why God didn't create "perfect" human being so ? He could have made us angels if he is God after all. Btw do you believe in predestination ? Actually I don't believe that God can "make us angels" or make us progress without us having to experience something that strengthens us. He makes it possible and provides path but just like you can't build muscle without working or learn knowledge without study, you can't just "boom" and become perfect. Even God can't do that. The idea is that we are trying to become like Him and that is a LONG arduous process of perfection. We are not just sightseers here on this planet. Otherwise there is no purpose to creation. Has anybody ever asked what the purpose of life is? That would be my answer. edit: Do you believe that earth was created like 6K years ago ? No I don't. Our modern bible does use the word "days" as in the 6 days of creation, but it also states that the the Sun and Moon were not even created to divide the day and night until the 4th day (vs 14-19). So whose "day" was he going by in the first 3 days if our 24 hour day hadn't even been created? A better interpretation would be that the earth was made in 7 "periods" or "times". Each could have lasted billions of years. But you still see the pattern of physical earth, then divide the water from the land, then plants, then animals and LASTLY humans which is the same patter we see that science has revealed. I try to understand which kind of Christian bigot you are. So what kind do you think I am? | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On March 22 2009 22:14 Mindcrime wrote: Why was slavery ever okay? Why was maiming unwilling male slaves ever okay? Why did your god get angry at the Israelites for not committing genocide? Genocide and slavery are good if your god says they are? I think not. God also wiped out the entire human race (save a few during the flood). From an eternal perspective, dying is not a big deal. We just move from one state to another. A BIG deal is how we live our lives. That can have eternal consequences. He also didn't take anything away that he didn't first provide so he wasn't even "taking". Anytime you wanna ask about how what God does and how it doesn't make sense, first try to think from His perspective. Reread my "itch" analogy from my first long post. Things that seem important to us now all of a sudden look miniscule while things like how we used our knowledge and understanding in this life suddenly become HUGE and very important. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On March 22 2009 23:04 IdrA wrote: really is that why it was perfectly ok, not only in the eyes of the general public but in the representatives of your religion, to torture someone until they admitted to heresy, and then burn them alive for being a heretic a few hundred years ago? absolute morals huh. I'm not catholic. but as i said in my last post there is a perfectly logical reason for everyone having a similar base sense of morality. its built into our brains by evolution. humans who treated each other kindly were more likely to not be killed in revenge, to receive reciprocal kindness, and to assist their family's survival. all of this leads to people with genetics that encourage altruistic/moral behavior to be more successful than prehistorical assholes, so by natural selection humanity developed a basic moral instinct. What about the universal sense that we are eternal, that there must a "purpose" to life and that there is a higher power? Did those bestow evolutionary advantages as well? | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 23 2009 13:40 Savio wrote: Actually I don't believe that God can "make us angels" or make us progress without us having to experience something that strengthens us. He makes it possible and provides path but just like you can't build muscle without working or learn knowledge without study, you can't just "boom" and become perfect. Even God can't do that. The idea is that we are trying to become like Him and that is a LONG arduous process of perfection. We are not just sightseers here on this planet. Otherwise there is no purpose to creation. Has anybody ever asked what the purpose of life is? That would be my answer. god isnt omnipotent? No I don't. Our modern bible does use the word "days" as in the 6 days of creation, but it also states that the the Sun and Moon were not even created to divide the day and night until the 4th day (vs 14-19). So whose "day" was he going by in the first 3 days if our 24 hour day hadn't even been created? A better interpretation would be that the earth was made in 7 "periods" or "times". Each could have lasted billions of years. But you still see the pattern of physical earth, then divide the water from the land, then plants, then animals and LASTLY humans which is the same patter we see that science has revealed. seems to me that if the authors meant 'unspecified period of time' they wouldnt have said 'days' and if the sun and moon were in existence by the 4th day then day would have a specific meaning before the creation was done. so was it 4 'time periods' and 2 days or what? and are you sure you REALLY want to say the creation myth follows the scientific model of our solar systems development? god created earth on the 3rd day, the sun on the 4th. the earth was in existence before the sun? or that birds and sea creatures were created at the same time, both before land animals? (birds evolved from land animals, which evolved from sea creatures) | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On March 22 2009 23:09 IdrA wrote: wait, you just argued that everyone has a natural sense of morality and the fact that everyone has a similar sense is proof that its some kind of universal truth (presumably set by god). if everyone has that sense then how are we put here to learn it without being coerced? you cant argue both that god sets what is right and wrong for us AND that we learn it on our own. What I was saying is that we need to learn to chose what we know is right when we are given the option between right and wrong. That is where there must not be coercion. Is God made us choose the right, then we would not progress. Also, if we still lived with him in heaven we couldn't really have the opportunity to choose between good and evil because there isn't evil there. So this place is the perfect training grounds for learning to make correct choices. So to answer your question, he gave us the ability to KNOW good from evil and what we are learning is how to CHOOSE good instead of evil when both are offered to us. When we can do that, we will be much more capable, powerful, perfect than we were before we came here. But since he knew we would mess up from time to time and since God cannot rob justice (someone has to suffer for every sin committed), he sent Christ to suffer the sum of all our guilt, pain, and punishments (just like how lambs in the Law of Moses would die in the place of the sinner, Jesus is the Lamb of God who was sacrificed just like all those lambs during the time of Moses. That was all symbolic of what was about to happen). Then because Christ payed the debt, he can set the terms by which we can return to him (the Gospel of Jesus Christ). | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On March 22 2009 23:42 Jibba wrote: This is problematic. This would mean that morality exists independently of God. Then why would one need to follow God to understand and behave in a way that is "good" or why not simply worship towards the ultimate authority (this independent morality) that even God is subject to. If you can accept that morality might be universal, then how can you know that God is the best instructor for it? What indication do you have that it is omnibenevolent? That would seem quite impossible to me, unless God is the originator of all morality. Good questions. The answer is that we follow God because He is the ultimate teacher of morality and progress. Its the same reason why we go to school instead of just pondering out in the desert. We also follow him because he is our father. Just like children follow their parents and can therefore survive until adulthood (infants and children could not survive without clinging to their parents). The fact that some principles exist independent of God does not mean that we can become perfect in that principle without his help. In fact only 1 of God's children was able to do that. That was Jesus Christ. For the rest of us, it is impossible. We are not Christ's equals and we can not progress beyond a very rudimentary state without their help. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On March 23 2009 13:56 IdrA wrote: god isnt omnipotent? Have you ever heard the supposed "catch" question that goes like this, "Can God make a rock so big that even He could not move it?" It is supposed to not have an answer because either way you would say that he can't do something. My answer to this question is "Yes". If god makes a rock and decrees that he can't move it, then he can't because he can not lie. There are several things he can't do. He cannot save us in our sins (we must become clean before we can live with him again). He can't break the laws of justice. And he cannot lie. In fact the Bible clearly states these facts. Just take lying for instance: Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began." Hebrews 6:18 "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, which have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us" He is all-powerful in the sense that he can accomplish his purposes, but that never meant that he could lie or break eternal laws to do so. seems to me that if the authors meant 'unspecified period of time' they wouldnt have said 'days' and if the sun and moon were in existence by the 4th day then day would have a specific meaning before the creation was done. so was it 4 'time periods' and 2 days or what? The authors were translating from one language to another to English. If you have ever translated, you would know that not all words have perfect counterparts in another language. A day is a period of time. It is different depending on where you are (Mars, Jupiter, etc.). So "day" is an arbitrary length of time that varies based on location. I don't think it is so surprising that this word could mean any length of time. Add to that our little sense of understanding of the world and it seems reasonable to think that they were likely billions of years. and are you sure you REALLY want to say the creation myth follows the scientific model of our solar systems development? god created earth on the 3rd day, the sun on the 4th. the earth was in existence before the sun? or that birds and sea creatures were created at the same time, both before land animals? (birds evolved from land animals, which evolved from sea creatures) Not exactly (I mainly thought it was interesting that there was an overlap of general principles), but I also believe that God wasn't laying out a blueprint for how to make a world. That kind of information has no ability to help us learn to choose between good and evil. It would just be "interesting" to us. I don't think that God is particularly interested in giving us stuff that is purely interesting. What he really wants is to give us info that can help us become more perfect. I mean the WHOLE creation of the earth, heavens, and life is explained in all of a page and half...hardly a dissertation on how to make a planet. Obviously the Bible wasn't designed to teach us about geology but how to repent of sin, etc. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 23 2009 14:01 Savio wrote: What I was saying is that we need to learn to chose what we know is right when we are given the option between right and wrong. That is where there must not be coercion. Is God made us choose the right, then we would not progress. Also, if we still lived with him in heaven we couldn't really have the opportunity to choose between good and evil because there isn't evil there. So this place is the perfect training grounds for learning to make correct choices. why should we need to progress? why would god not simply make us good to begin with? whats wrong with living in a place without evil and naturally making good choices? So to answer your question, he gave us the ability to KNOW good from evil and what we are learning is how to CHOOSE good instead of evil when both are offered to us. When we can do that, we will be much more capable, powerful, perfect than we were before we came here. But since he knew we would mess up from time to time and since God cannot rob justice (someone has to suffer for every sin committed), he sent Christ to suffer the sum of all our guilt, pain, and punishments (just like how lambs in the Law of Moses would die in the place of the sinner, Jesus is the Lamb of God who was sacrificed just like all those lambs during the time of Moses. That was all symbolic of what was about to happen). Then because Christ payed the debt, he can set the terms by which we can return to him (the Gospel of Jesus Christ). | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 23 2009 14:32 Savio wrote: thats fine, but that means hes not all powerful. if theres something you cant do then by definition you arent capable of doing everything. Have you ever heard the supposed "catch" question that goes like this, "Can God make a rock so big that even He could not move it?" It is supposed to not have an answer because either way you would say that he can't do something. My answer to this question is "Yes". If god makes a rock and decrees that he can't move it, then he can't because he can not lie. There are several things he can't do. He cannot save us in our sins (we must become clean before we can live with him again). He can't break the laws of justice. And he cannot lie. In fact the Bible clearly states these facts. Just take lying for instance: Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began." Hebrews 6:18 "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, which have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us" He is all-powerful in the sense that he can accomplish his purposes, but that never meant that he could lie or break eternal laws to do so. The authors were translating from one language to another to English. If you have ever translated, you would know that not all words have perfect counterparts in another language. A day is a period of time. It is different depending on where you are (Mars, Jupiter, etc.). So "day" is an arbitrary length of time that varies based on location. I don't think it is so surprising that this word could mean any length of time. Add to that our little sense of understanding of the world and it seems reasonable to think that they were likely billions of years. but the people who wrote the bible lived on earth, no matter what language they were writing in. on earth, no matter where you are on earth, a day is a day. 24 hours. i dont know for sure but id be willing to bet that just about every language has a word for the period of time from sunset to sunset or sunrise to sunrise, or however you want to define it, given how integral it is to our lives. Not exactly (I mainly thought it was interesting that there was an overlap of general principles), but I also believe that God wasn't laying out a blueprint for how to make a world. That kind of information has no ability to help us learn to choose between good and evil. It would just be "interesting" to us. I don't think that God is particularly interested in giving us stuff that is purely interesting. What he really wants is to give us info that can help us become more perfect. I mean the WHOLE creation of the earth, heavens, and life is explained in all of a page and half...hardly a dissertation on how to make a planet. Obviously the Bible wasn't designed to teach us about geology but how to repent of sin, etc. follows the general principles? what? the order of types of life was wrong, the sun came before the earth, "let there be light" and creating the sun 4 days apart makes no sense as the sun is the source of light, it calls the moon a light when it isnt one. i dont even know what seperating the sky from the sea or the sea from the earth means. the whole land and sea thing makes no sense anyway since the water is resting on top of earth, but the sea came first? and he created vegetation before there was sunlight, plants need sunlight to survive. but ya i suppose it made sure there was water and land before he put the animals there, got that part right at least. if he really wants to give us information on becoming better people how come he puts in extraneous idiocy like this and how come he sets a moral example that pat robertson would cringe at? | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On March 23 2009 13:40 Savio wrote: So what kind do you think I am? There is still hope ;p You are not the worst kind. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On March 23 2009 13:52 Savio wrote: what universal sense that we are eternal? sense that there must be a higher power?I'm not catholic. What about the universal sense that we are eternal, that there must a "purpose" to life and that there is a higher power? Did those bestow evolutionary advantages as well? you mean the sense that you're born and indoctrinated into a system of beliefs that tells you you're eternal and that theres a higher power? even if those existed, and they dont for me and id imagine they dont for most other non religious people, they could very well be products of wishful thinking. most people dont like the idea that when they die, thats it. its all over. how comforting to think that thats not it? although not as powerful alot of people like the idea of a big parent in the sky whos always watching over them and protecting them and giving them strength and whatnot. makes the idea of a benevolent god quite appealing. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On March 23 2009 13:47 Savio wrote: God also wiped out the entire human race (save a few during the flood). From an eternal perspective, dying is not a big deal. We just move from one state to another. A BIG deal is how we live our lives. That can have eternal consequences. He also didn't take anything away that he didn't first provide so he wasn't even "taking". Anytime you wanna ask about how what God does and how it doesn't make sense, first try to think from His perspective. Reread my "itch" analogy from my first long post. Things that seem important to us now all of a sudden look miniscule while things like how we used our knowledge and understanding in this life suddenly become HUGE and very important. so much for your god being the source of morality | ||
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