EPT
College is not necessary - Page 4
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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LosingID8
CA10828 Posts
On February 18 2009 15:39 cgrinker wrote: BTW ID8 you have a lot of friends yeah it's tough being so popular -_-; | ||
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Demoninja
United States1190 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
Every study that has ever been conducted on the returns to a college education (especially at a school as prestigious as the one you are attending, OP - I'm guessing the high tuition means it's somewhat selective at least) shows that there's basically no better investment in existence. Yes, the average person who goes to college, even if he has to go into massive debt to do so, will see returns to his education which dwarf the costs he paid, included forfeited wages (some studies place returns to an education at a highly selective college at above 10,000%. Yes. And these aren't some BS magazine, they're economics PhDs publishing in economics journals). Consider this: if college isn't necessary, why to people go through SO much trouble to attend? At the nation's most prestigious universities, there are queues of tens of thousands lining up to pay $40,000+/year in tuition. Isn't that some indication of the value of a college education? If college was really so worthless, why would all of these people be desperately trying to enter it? To argue that college is unnecessary in light of its overwhelming popularity amongst motivated, rational individuals, you would have to construct an impossibly elaborate conspiracy theory. Go to college. Finance it however possible. Pay for your kids to go to college, if you can. It's the best investment you'll ever make. Edit: I also resent your line about "American society" pressuring kids to go to college. A strong emphasis on college education isn't nearly an "American" phenomenon - in all developed countries, university is the social norm for anyone who is mildly intelligent. What's more frustrating about you insisting this is an American phenomenon is that the United States' education system actually offers students much more flexibility than foreign systems - in many countries in Europe, you have to "figure out what you want to do with your life" at a much earlier age, and tests are structured to weed out likely college attendees from vocational school attendees at a much earlier age. Pointing out pressure to attend college as American is just plain ignorant. Edit 2: maybe the OP should just follow his own advice and drop out of school? I find it funny that we are hearing this news from someone who's as invested in college as he is. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On February 18 2009 12:18 StarN wrote: Honestly I would do the whole college thing if I could see myself doing a normal job like being a doctor, or lawyer, or office worker, etc. But I can't. Maybe I'm just weird. It makes you a normal teenager, its a phase that passes for most people. Ultimately the internet is the worst possible place to try and get perspective on an issue like this, there are certain kinds of people who can get away with the 'not going the traditional path' thing and people who post on internet forums are rarely in that group. Take a good look at that list in the op, those are all absolute shit jobs. You are never, ever, ever going to meet an air traffic controller/sales manager who doesn't drink themselves to sleep every night. | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14899 Posts
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intoyourrainbOW
United States168 Posts
On February 18 2009 12:15 StarN wrote: Think for a second. Who makes more money? A mechanic or a philosophy major (no offense to you philosophy majors out there). Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple, dropped out of college after one semester and he's one of the richest men in the world. People like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, etc. are successful because they are GENIUSES, and they were smart enough to realize their ambitions--without the help of a college education. People like them make up .1% or less of the total population. So please, unless you're a genius and have this one amazing idea, don't discredit the value of college by citing Steve Jobs as an example. | ||
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benjammin
United States2728 Posts
On February 18 2009 17:49 intoyourrainbOW wrote: People like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, etc. are successful because they are GENIUSES, and they were smart enough to realize their ambitions--without the help of a college education. People like them make up .1% or less of the total population. So please, unless you're a genius and have this one amazing idea, don't discredit the value of college by citing Steve Jobs as an example. yeah, this is a big time logical fallacy that i see everywhere what is more compelling: 2 examples (gates, jobs) in the last 35 years or 35 examples in the last 2 years? | ||
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gchan
United States654 Posts
Evidence: personal experience. Triple major of molecular biology, economics, and a major combining the two. | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14899 Posts
On February 18 2009 19:29 gchan wrote: About the difficulty of majors, it really depends on what type of person you are. At the bachelor's level, hard science and math majors tend to have a very heavy focus on memorization, whereas social sciences/liberal arts tend to have a focus on developing analytical skills and expression. If you can memorize well, you will excel in the sciences; if you have excellent analytical skills, you will excel in social sciences/liberal arts. To really do well in either field though, you will need to do both and that doesn't happen very much until the tail end of college and/or grad school. Evidence: personal experience. Triple major of molecular biology, economics, and a major combining the two. biology is the only hard science that requires memorization like that. you don't have equations that you can use, so you have to memorize pathways, mechanisms, etc for engineering, chemistry, physics, there are way more concepts to apply to real problems, you have equipment design, you have site design, way more stuff to undestand rather than memorize | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
I graduated early and chilled for a year to try and decide what I wanted to do. Still not knowing what I wanted to do I joined in anyways (poor too, so have to take full load of classes to get financial aid and there are some other requirements as well). So I ended up just trying a bunch of things that interested me Helicopters, art-graphic design/commercial art, photography. Not only are just the classes expensive themselves, but the books and supplies and all the other random fees here and there are ridiculous. And on top of all the they pretty much doubled the cost of units from my first year to the next which totally stopped me from continuing a second semester. I also realized that I don't have some of the talent and passion that others have in art. Not to say I suck but I can't see myself ruining my spontaneous hobby for a forced profession where I don't draw on my own time or even draw my own content. I still don't know what I would want to do but I can say that I matured and learned much more in a telemarketing job than I did at college. I retried a couple of classes here and there but random circumstances caused me to drop back out again. Imo it's not what you know but who you know. So many stupid people I chat with at parties and shit have decent jobs making 15-30$ an hour doing some non degree requiring job (on top of that they could actually go to school and advance in the position and earn more or move up). College isn't for everyone, I mean I enjoy learning new stuff (even the boring history classes about US tariffs and shit lol) it's just not worth the cost and payout. Even If I do get a degree, I still have to land a job. And if I do land a job, I might find that I hate and and I wasted all my time in college. Not to mention all the student loans debt I'll be paying back every month, so it looks like I'd be stuck in a shitty job that pays low for the next 10 years after all. edit- oh yea and I forgot to mention. Every job you go to that has a new boss and work place and has their own routines, rules, and way of doing the same thing that another identical job would. So basically you still have to learn the job and go to training when you get there. Most of the shit you learned in college doesn't even matter and can be thrown out the window. It's pretty laughable that a degree is even required. I mean you could take the basic classes related to the job/career and skip all the other GE stuff and do the job equally well (if not better, because it's all still fresh in your head). College is mostly a scam imo. | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14899 Posts
Not that I'm greedy or anything, but if my starting job is anything less than $90k before bonuses I'm going to be extremely disappointed in myself | ||
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benjammin
United States2728 Posts
On February 18 2009 20:50 KOFgokuon wrote: Some people will be happy making $15-30 an hour Not that I'm greedy or anything, but if my starting job is anything less than $90k before bonuses I'm going to be extremely disappointed in myself LOL you might want to find a new country to live in with that goal | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14899 Posts
On February 18 2009 21:52 benjammin wrote: LOL you might want to find a new country to live in with that goal i'm getting a phd in chemical engineering, it's a realistic goal my classmates had offers of 70k+ out of undergrad | ||
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ffswowsucks
Greece2297 Posts
On February 18 2009 12:18 Cloud wrote: Well, depends on what you want to do. If i had wanted to be a businessman all my life, id probably wouldnt go, yeah. I havent been to college and im a businessman so totally agree on that (tho I went to college for 1.5 years but then I dropped out) | ||
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29 fps
United States5724 Posts
also, a college degree seems to be the standard, just like high school diploma was back then. | ||
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goldrush
Canada709 Posts
On February 18 2009 19:29 gchan wrote: About the difficulty of majors, it really depends on what type of person you are. At the bachelor's level, hard science and math majors tend to have a very heavy focus on memorization, whereas social sciences/liberal arts tend to have a focus on developing analytical skills and expression. If you can memorize well, you will excel in the sciences; if you have excellent analytical skills, you will excel in social sciences/liberal arts. To really do well in either field though, you will need to do both and that doesn't happen very much until the tail end of college and/or grad school. Evidence: personal experience. Triple major of molecular biology, economics, and a major combining the two. ... So you're lumping in math with biology? Any decent math program won't be focussing on memorization and if you do that, then you'll get reamed on midterms and finals. It's pure thinking skills for the most part other than memorizing some of the basic theorems and honestly, how many of fields don't require you to memorize anything at all? I'm in a math/economics double degree right now and in my economics classes you have to memorize and understand some of the models. It's about what you have to do in math. Yes, the difficulty of the relative majors will vary depending on where your strengths lie, especially if you're highly averse to either writing papers or abstract thinking. However, the majority of people find understanding processes down to very minute details or thinking about abstract topics that are frankly completely inconceivable harder (but less tedious) than writing paper after paper, which is why most people say that a math degree is harder than a liberal arts degree. To the OP: To the average person, the extra money you'll probably get after university/college far oustrips the money that you'll spend on it. You're going to earn it back; while you can do well without a degree, unless you're one of the chosen few, you probably won't do as well as if you did get your degree. So unless you're sure of being able to strike it rich, why take the chance? Bite the bullet, take the four years and learn something about yourself and what you want to do for the rest of your life. | ||
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StarN
United States2587 Posts
On February 18 2009 16:28 JWD wrote: This OP is totally misguided. Yes, it is possible to not attend college and still make as much or more than a college graduate - however, if you did this, you would be amongst a tiny-bordering-on-unmeasurable minority. Every study that has ever been conducted on the returns to a college education (especially at a school as prestigious as the one you are attending, OP - I'm guessing the high tuition means it's somewhat selective at least) shows that there's basically no better investment in existence. Yes, the average person who goes to college, even if he has to go into massive debt to do so, will see returns to his education which dwarf the costs he paid, included forfeited wages (some studies place returns to an education at a highly selective college at above 10,000%. Yes. And these aren't some BS magazine, they're economics PhDs publishing in economics journals). Consider this: if college isn't necessary, why to people go through SO much trouble to attend? At the nation's most prestigious universities, there are queues of tens of thousands lining up to pay $40,000+/year in tuition. Isn't that some indication of the value of a college education? If college was really so worthless, why would all of these people be desperately trying to enter it? To argue that college is unnecessary in light of its overwhelming popularity amongst motivated, rational individuals, you would have to construct an impossibly elaborate conspiracy theory. Go to college. Finance it however possible. Pay for your kids to go to college, if you can. It's the best investment you'll ever make. Edit: I also resent your line about "American society" pressuring kids to go to college. A strong emphasis on college education isn't nearly an "American" phenomenon - in all developed countries, university is the social norm for anyone who is mildly intelligent. What's more frustrating about you insisting this is an American phenomenon is that the United States' education system actually offers students much more flexibility than foreign systems - in many countries in Europe, you have to "figure out what you want to do with your life" at a much earlier age, and tests are structured to weed out likely college attendees from vocational school attendees at a much earlier age. Pointing out pressure to attend college as American is just plain ignorant. Edit 2: maybe the OP should just follow his own advice and drop out of school? I find it funny that we are hearing this news from someone who's as invested in college as he is. lol hey. How's it going? I mostly agree with what you have to say. I only said American yet I never said it was exclusive to American society (I just don't have enough research on other societies and their college attendance rates). And if you read my post better you would know that I am dropping out of school. (it's in the last paragraph fyi) Anyways I think a lot of people are taking my post the wrong way. College is an option always open for people. You don't HAVE to enter it straight out of high school. I realize that college degree holders generally make more money and acknowledged that in my post. But then again, those that go to college are usually more motivated people in general than those who choose not to. I think what I forgot to mention in my post is that I guess the reason so many people go to college is also because so many people genuinely want to live normal lives and have normal jobs such as engineering, teaching, etc. (which is what makes them 'normal') My post is meant to force one to question themselves to the reasons of why they are going to attend university. I don't want you guys to drop out of college and try to become pioneers in math and science or anything. I just think there are too many people out there going to college for the wrong reasons and with the wrong ideas in mind. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 18 2009 16:45 KOFgokuon wrote: Jibba can I have your babies? You write everything I would write but much more eloquently and clearly <3 | ||
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