EPTIt's ridiculous to say improvement is a by-product of a ladder. It's the entire purpose, unless it's for a special occasion like TSL, where good players could play enough to wedge themselves in the top 48 and then quit. If ladders were only about finding out how good you are, you wouldn't ever see players with 300+ games played in a season, they would have found their peak long before that and quit playing. Why did they keep playing, then? To get better.
Woes of being random - Page 3
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NrG.ZaM
United States267 Posts
It's ridiculous to say improvement is a by-product of a ladder. It's the entire purpose, unless it's for a special occasion like TSL, where good players could play enough to wedge themselves in the top 48 and then quit. If ladders were only about finding out how good you are, you wouldn't ever see players with 300+ games played in a season, they would have found their peak long before that and quit playing. Why did they keep playing, then? To get better. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
1) I don't care about my record 2) I don't suck against random 3) I do play iCCup to get better If you don't care about finding out how good you are, and you're just playing games to get better, why not join a clan and mass game all day instead of abusing a ladder to fulfil your purposes and making it unpleasant for anyone who wants to use it for what it's for? Why do you have to be such a prick to people who just want to use the ladder and play random? Why did they keep playing, then Probably to inch their way to the next rank, since you gain more points than you lose. A matter of seeing if they could do it. It's also an easy way to find games if you're not in a clan, so you might as well play your regular games on the ladder too, since you're (supposed) to be guaranteed someone your skill level. That doesn't mean you're not a piece of shit for banning anyone who doesn't want to play the specific match up you're interested in. If you want to do that, find some place else because it makes the ladder experience unpleasant for everyone else (which is my whole argument here). I don't care if you want to use the ladder to mass game and get better, no one does. If it makes you happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, by all means. But the fact is you're banning people, and making it harder for them to join games, degrading their experience, and generally being a pain in the ass. That is hurting someone, and I don't care if it does fulfil your personal motives  | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Honestly I find that playing friends and comparing how I do and how I perform vs them over a period of time is a much better barometer of improvement than ladder ranks, especially considering the standard of rank and skill on the ladder is highly variable these days. I'm sorry dude but it's increasingly seeming like you are making these arguments (in a combative tone no less) simply because you are pissed that the ladder players keep banning you for being random and you're not pleased with your experience - hence justifying what the ladder SHOULD be like, which in turn would serve your own needs well. | ||
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NrG.Bamboo
United States2756 Posts
On August 03 2008 09:00 PsycHOTemplar wrote: If you don't care about finding out how good you are, and you're just playing games to get better, why not join a clan and mass game all day instead of abusing a ladder to fulfil your purposes and making it unpleasant for anyone who wants to use it for what it's for? Why do you have to be such a prick to people who just want to use the ladder and play random? Probably to inch their way to the next rank, since you gain more points than you lose. A matter of seeing if they could do it. It's also an easy way to find games if you're not in a clan, so you might as well play your regular games on the ladder too, since you're (supposed) to be guaranteed someone your skill level. That doesn't mean you're not a piece of shit for banning anyone who doesn't want to play the specific match up you're interested in. If you want to do that, find some place else because it makes the ladder experience unpleasant for everyone else (which is my whole argument here). I don't care if you want to use the ladder to mass game and get better, no one does. If it makes you happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, by all means. But the fact is you're banning people, and making it harder for them to join games, degrading their experience, and generally being a pain in the ass. That is hurting someone, and I don't care if it does fulfil your personal motives First of all, I'm in a clan, and enjoy playing games with my clanmates. But are there always people online every hour of every day? No. Sometimes you have to go outside of your clan believe it or not to play a game. Second of all, who the fuck are you to say what the ladder was meant for. You didn't create it and you certainly don't have the only opinion on it's usage, so don't say I'm not using it for it's true meaning. Third of all, why do you have to be such a prick to people who want to use the ladder to get better, and this includes playing the matchups you want to improve. Sometimes you don't have a Zerg teammate online willing to play 10 games in a row with you. Guess I'll just sit in the channel or join a new clan since I would be abusing the system if I tried to play TvZ exclusively on a ladder. On August 03 2008 09:15 thedeadhaji wrote: you're out of your mind insisting that ladder is not for improving in skill level and serves only as a barometer. Honestly I find that playing friends and comparing how I do and how I perform vs them over a period of time is a much better barometer of improvement than ladder ranks, especially considering the standard of rank and skill on the ladder is highly variable these days. I'm sorry dude but it's increasingly seeming like you are making these arguments (in a combative tone no less) simply because you are pissed that the ladder players keep banning you for being random and you're not pleased with your experience - hence justifying what the ladder SHOULD be like, which in turn would serve your own needs well. Agreed. It seems like his arguments spawned purely from just being angry at being banned, and thus found his own meaning for what a ladder should be about. | ||
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NrG.ZaM
United States267 Posts
Probably to inch their way to the next rank, since you gain more points than you lose. That only happens at the lower ranks, where it isn't so much a competetive ladder, but a breeding ground for practice games, which you're so adamantly saying aren't existent on ladders, so I guess I'll concede that point to you. That doesn't mean you're not a piece of shit for banning anyone who doesn't want to play the specific match up you're interested in. Well shit, if you want the ability to pick what you play against completely removed, so people can no longer willingly practice against a certain race, why don't we just make it mandatory that every player has to be random? That also takes care of those bastard race pickers who's race depends on their opponents! But the fact is you're banning people, and making it harder for them to join games, degrading their experience, and generally being a pain in the ass. That is hurting someone, and I don't care if it does fulfil your personal motives There came a certain point in playing on ICCup that I realized something, and you might find this out eventually too. Oftentimes, people are complete idiots. Simple as that. Even if you put "zerg only" or "I'm random" into a game title, they wouldn't read it, just as when you say "D+" or "C-" the D and D- players come in anyway. People just don't read the game names. And I really don't see why you're attacking me about banning people, I don't do that anyway, and in no way indicated that I do. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
 ", at which point I saw the game name on the top right, said sry i didnt read it , and left. I guess that would be the more courteous thing to do. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On August 03 2008 04:30 Ancestral wrote: What's with this? As I said, try to get better against people you know. I'm pretty sure the point of a ladder is to determine skill level, not to help you advance yours. Yeah that's a side effect, but to me banning someone because they play random or any particular race you don't want to play to me is like banning someone because their win record is too good. It's dodging, and in my opinion, abuse. I hope that in SC2 Battle.net the auto-matchmaking system doesn't allow for this kind of BS, and it's a shame that the current one does. Of course I can't blame you too much, because you're allowed to do it currently, and it's not really considered "abuse" by the admins (though I think it should be, they just don't have time to deal with it). If you can't play well versus random, you deserve to lose versus players who go random. Get over it. I agree 100% with this. | ||
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lIlIlIlIlIlI
Korea (South)3851 Posts
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Falcynn
United States3597 Posts
In reality it doesn't affect much, but imagining them acting all smug in front of their computer thinking that they pulled a fast one on me just pisses me off. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
And I really don't see why you're attacking me about banning people, I don't do that anyway, and in no way indicated that I do. Who are you arguing with then? Did you read the OP? That only happens at the lower ranks, where it isn't so much a competetive ladder, but a breeding ground for practice games, which you're so adamantly saying aren't existent on ladders, so I guess I'll concede that point to you. I didn't know this, but at least up to B+ with MOTW you do... After which you're getting games with the best, so you might as well play on the ladder... But if you get to a level that high, it's probably not because you're practicing a single match up and dodging 3 out of 4 games. PS: To those of you who said I'm only arguing because I'm annoyed... Of course I am. Why else would I argue the point lol? Because I was indifferent? My experience on the ladder has been degraded, so I'm putting my two cents in to help raise awareness a little Whether or not anyone cares or listens is something I haven't given conscious thought. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
The slightest advantage that R gets over me in the earliest stages of the game doesnt really bother me. However, I'm not playing icc to practice vs random so taht's really where the argument ends. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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NrG.Bamboo
United States2756 Posts
On August 03 2008 09:56 randomKo_Orean wrote: So guys. Give me concrete reasons why you REFUSE to play random (unless versus a friend) 1) To practice That's all i've gotten from 3 pages of bickering. Meet On August 03 2008 03:54 Valentine wrote: QFT I go to iCCup to practice/to get better. The possibility to play vs cheese with a random player is pretty high. Plus factor in the fact that your on iCCup.. I'd be shocked to find both a: 1) non-cheese game. 2) actual GG (due to the fact that they are probably not that good at all races Both of which I hope for when I try to get practice games in. EDIT: If it's a remake (and my oppoent picked in the first game) I think it would be kind of rude to deny him of a second shot with whatever race he/she wants. Also I'm going to play paranoid because angry loser + random probably won't be a GG combo :p Those really are my only concrete reasons, and I don't see why I would need any more than that. ~~~~~~~~ And it's the dodging that's the problem - "omg no random you have advantage" touch shit kid, I gotta practice 3 times as much to get to your level (theoretically) Oh yeah, btw, random IS allowed in KeSPA, it's just that it's impossible to practice 3 times as much as others. I never said I dodge because random has an advantage. That's simply not why I do it, so your argument doesn't really apply to me. And yeah, I don't think anyone said random wasn't allowed in KeSPA games or ever even mentioned it (although I only skimmed through this thread quickly aside from the obvious rage-posts from random players). But yeah, that's precisely why I don't play random: having to practice 3 times as much. It's your own choice to do so, so I don't see it fitting anywhere in this argument either. ~~~~~~~~ On August 03 2008 10:02 PsycHOTemplar wrote: Who are you arguing with then? Did you read the OP? I didn't know this, but at least up to B+ with MOTW you do... After which you're getting games with the best, so you might as well play on the ladder... But if you get to a level that high, it's probably not because you're practicing a single match up and dodging 3 out of 4 games. PS: To those of you who said I'm only arguing because I'm annoyed... Of course I am. Why else would I argue the point lol? Because I was indifferent? My experience on the ladder has been degraded, so I'm putting my two cents in to help raise awareness a little Whether or not anyone cares or listens is something I haven't given conscious thought.Well shit bro I don't have a problem with playing vs random players. I kind of have to play vs random players in ClanWars etc. I would play them on iCCup if the vast majority of these players were not going to cheese and just end with a quick game, because as I have stated so many times before, I play for improvement, not some shiny new rank to show off. If I know someone legitimately is a random player and is looking to practice then fuck hit me up and ill mass play you on iCCup. But what I'm avoiding is someone who just picks random so he can BBS/99gate/4pool and luck his way out within 6 minutes. Win or loss I don't care because thats not why I'm playing the ladder. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
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NrG.Bamboo
United States2756 Posts
On August 03 2008 10:49 PsycHOTemplar wrote: I said it. I wasn't sure whether or not Pros are allowed to go random or not (as an argument that even without knowing my race, you're still at an advantage cause wouldn't all, or at least some pros be randomers if it were such an advantage? Yeah, it's purely the fact that the practice time it takes to get to/remain at that level is too great to make up for the very small advantage you get at the beginning of the game, which may or may not pay off during the game anyway. It's just simply not worth it. The only thing KeSPA doesn't allow (as far as I know) is not having your opponent know what race you will play 1 week prior to the upcoming match, for preparation reasons. You can play any race (including Random) regardless of your "main". Like how Savior played Terran on Desperado [I think this was the map] against GoRush regardless of the fact that he is obviously Zerg main. As long as your opponent knows during the practice time, it's all cool :p On August 03 2008 10:56 thedeadhaji wrote: some pros used to be randomers in the early days (2000-2001), iirc Grrr was random before sticking with P? Some others as well too, Chrh may have been random as well. I'm not sure if anyone in this particular thread cited the random advantage as the reason they dont play vs random on iccup, but I'd imagine those pple arent a part of the current state of the discussion. Yeah, and you can definately identify the cause of there not being any professional Random players as the vast skill difference between 2000 players and modern-day players. The time it takes to get to the 2000 skill level and remain there is much much less practice time than what it takes modern day. Fuck, even alot of foreigners these days would trash old school pros. The fact (I believe) is that Random is less effective the higher caliber the game is. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
I'm not sure if anyone in this particular thread cited the random advantage as the reason they dont play vs random on iccup, but I'd imagine those pple arent a part of the current state of the discussion. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
say they are protoss and opponent goes r and gets zerg, toss needs to opens gate as its the only safe shit vs r while all they know how to do is FE instead they have 1 base tech or 2 gate and they lose.. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
Fuck = Zerg Shit = Terran PillarHumper = Protoss Anything else gets a "well screw u I'm going random" See, easy fix. The word combos even make sense :-) | ||
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