EPTWoes of being random - Page 2
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anderoo
Canada1876 Posts
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On August 03 2008 04:40 anderoo wrote: Last season I played a guy who exclusively played PvZ on Nemesis, adn then just 9-9 gated every game. That map is such a tempting 12 hatch... I looked at his game history, and he was like, C-rank, every game Nemesis, and most games under 10 mins long. How could he possibly be having fun? Yeah srsly, this is more extreme than I ever could imagine. On the one hand, I think it would be easier in SC2 if when you made an account you chose your ladder race, and than in any match made game you just had that race and your opponent had their race, and leaving the game was a loss. On the other hand, some people are race pickers. I guess for tournaments they could still be race pickers, but the BS of people only playing certain races is so annoying. It's so annoying when someone leaves them game when the countdown is at 2 seconds and I can't cancel. Edit: It's not THAT annoying, just when it happens 3 or 4 times in a row I'm like -_X | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On August 03 2008 04:02 Ancestral wrote: You have friends to practice against, you don't need to ladder to get practice. Playing against random people isn't as good for practice as people you know anyway. You can play them over and over again, and there can be discussion afterwards. I can find plenty of pple to disagree with you on this. At least for me, ladder is practice and playing with friends is affirmation of said practice. 'Friends' are rarely online when you want to practice, while ladder is always active and available for you to play. Friend games tend to degenerate into 1v1 obs games where you only play 1 game every hour if you're lucky. It is certainly not ideal practice conditions. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
But on the other hand, the bahavior of asking for a particular race by the game maker can be interpreted as wanting ideal practice in the matchup. It's a matter of perspective. A frustrated random player who gets kicked from games repeatedly? -> current icc is full of abusers and pussies. Anyone else? Meh, w/e dude wants a pvt, let him have a pvt. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
I think ladders should be match made also, so you can only thumbs-down a certain number of maps, and you have to play whatever race your math made opponent uses (up to and including R). This way, they most truly represent the skill of people who play in them because you have to be well rounded. But clearly anyone has the right to disagree with this ideal, and I guess on ladders people will keep playing R, people will keep banning R players, and R players will keep complaining about it. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On August 03 2008 05:04 thedeadhaji wrote: I can see why you argue agaisnt the current icc system, which allows that i map 1 matchup abuse for those who choose it, matchup picking, etc. But on the other hand, the bahavior of asking for a particular race by the game maker can be interpreted as wanting ideal practice in the matchup. It's a matter of perspective. A frustrated random player who gets kicked from games repeatedly? -> current icc is full of abusers and pussies. Anyone else? Meh, w/e dude wants a pvt, let him have a pvt. Didn't see this post. If you make a game saying "P only me T" or whatever you do, I suppose that is okay because both players are agreeing to something. That gets good practice in. But unless it says "No R" or "No (x)" I don't think it's very WM to ban people from it. I didn't consider asking for a certain matchup but I don't have a problem with it. Edit: As long as you don't always make one game "BlueStorm P only me T" 100% of the time, but I'm guessing people would catch on before you made it to A+ with one matchup and one map. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
But it really seems to me (and perhaps others) that ICCUP is a place that is geared towards practice rather than organized competition? Yea I know that sounds somewhat odd since ladder by definition is competition, but I think most people play ICC to get games w/o being bothered and find their proper rank, rather than necessarily reaching the top of the ladder. And when you want to practice, it makes more sense to ask for exactly what you want to practice, be it the map or the matchup. I think the cause of our differences in opinion is that you're arguing for the ladder to be a place of pure competition, while I'm arguing that iccup in particular is a place for practice rather than pure competition. edit: yea not writing "no R" or w/e, then banning after they say "i'm R" is quite bm  Oddly, even though I'm arguing agianst R somewhat, when I make ladder games on icc I hardly ever ban anyone, including R's. I'll just ask and make sure they're R, not last minute race picking TT. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
So it's definitely a good place to practice as well as try to get as far as you can. And I think adding "No R" wouldn't be very hard, but then not many people play R so it's not something you'd think about. Maybe R players should just host games and always say "1v1 Andromeda me R" or whatever they please. Other than that, as I said, I guess you'll have to get banned a lot and make a blog complaining about it, which to me seems perfectly righteous. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On August 03 2008 02:58 tracer wrote: That's actually a really good idea. The only reason you wouldn't want to do this is if you WANT your opponent to have the disadvantage of not knowing your race (which is pretty pussy). Well it's only fair though. If you have to practice 3 times as many match-ups and your opponent knows your race then you're at a disadvantage. Playing P against random Z can be a huge disadvantage on some maps though. Almost to the point to where P must guess if their opponent is P/T or Z. And generally you'd guess they are P or T since the same build will work vs either race but vs Z you need a very different opening BO. Like Longinus for example. If you 2 gate you're fucked vs walling T. If you forge first you're probably screwed vs player of equal skill if they are P or T. If you 1 gate fighting 9 pool speed is almost impossible vs good micro. edit: Instead of being a victim in PvR I try to be offensive and just proxy 9/9 gate (works on longi, python, and other maps.) I think often times random players assume they won't be cheesed since their opponent doesn't know what race they're up against but 9/9 gate works vs a variety of different races builds. It sucks vs some stuff like if they 10/12 gate and can micro or if they get a wall up in time. | ||
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nAi.PrOtOsS
Canada784 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
If you don't think iCCup should allow random players to play, because of various perceived imbalances (because really, they are imaginary when you consider experience), then make a request to the ladder to force everyone to choose a race. If you don't think they're gonna do that, then guess what? Seriously, we might as well have separate ladders for every match up if there were really a demand for practicing and getting good at just one match up. The fact is there isn't, and it's just a bunch of douche bags at D and C level who just want to jerk off to their pathetic rank instead of playing the game. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Yea i dont play random on iccup, because well they ALWAYS cheese. If they get terran they proxy rax and mm rush, if they get P then they proxy gates and rush, and if there zerg they 4/5/7 pool. If it's ALWAYS, why not just play safe and scout and get a free win to get you to a higher rank where people stop being able to win with pure cheese? You're wrong. Protoss cheese way more than any random player. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
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NrG.Bamboo
United States2756 Posts
On August 03 2008 04:30 Ancestral wrote: What's with this? As I said, try to get better against people you know. I'm pretty sure the point of a ladder is to determine skill level, not to help you advance yours. Yeah that's a side effect, but to me banning someone because they play random or any particular race you don't want to play to me is like banning someone because their win record is too good. It's dodging, and in my opinion, abuse. I hope that in SC2 Battle.net the auto-matchmaking system doesn't allow for this kind of BS, and it's a shame that the current one does. Of course I can't blame you too much, because you're allowed to do it currently, and it's not really considered "abuse" by the admins (though I think it should be, they just don't have time to deal with it). If you can't play well versus random, you deserve to lose versus players who go random. Get over it. What. I really cant even understand how you came about thinking that laddering is not to get better? Only to find out where you rank? Seriously, what? | ||
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Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
I really cant even understand how you came about thinking that laddering is not to get better? Only to find out where you rank? Seriously, what? Reread what you said. That's exactly what it is. Because of an innate human curiosity to know who is best, and how you compare to them. Getting better is a bi-product of playing games, and is not the primary function of a ladder (or no one would care so much about their record that they actually ban people in matchups they suck at). | ||
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sillyboy_tomato
United States157 Posts
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NrG.Bamboo
United States2756 Posts
On August 03 2008 08:22 PsycHOTemplar wrote: Reread what you said. That's exactly what it is. Because of an innate human curiosity to know who is best, and how you compare to them. Getting better is a bi-product of playing games, and is not the primary function of a ladder (or no one would care so much about their record that they actually ban people in matchups they suck at). 1) I don't care about my record 2) I don't suck against random 3) I do play iCCup to get better | ||
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