Ever wished you were a more capable Protoss player so you could test out all your crazy theories? Here's your chance to almost do that! Tell me your unorthodox, non-standard and weird ideas and I'll try them out.
The more specific you are, the more likely I am to do it. If you've seen a progamer get in a situation and respond a certain way and you wonder "wouldn't this other way be better?" then let's hear it. If you've made up a build order that you swear is better than the standard build (at least in some scenarios) then jot it down. If you've got a cheesey build where you've thought out all the possible outcomes and it's actually a pretty safe build, then type it out. If you think an unused unit would be cost-efficient in a certain scenario and it's unlikely to mess up the balance of the infinity other variables in the game, then lay it out.
And if you can post a replay or link a VOD in which I can see the exact situation of intended use, then I'm even more likely to try it.
And as a gift of good will, here is another rofl rep. It's less than 5 minutes in length so I'll provide no summary other than that it involves pylon prisons. Replay
Game 1: DT/Goon/Obs PvP
On February 02 2008 04:23 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote: PvP, fast dt try to injure him as much as possible, take nat as soon as dt comes out and then make like 2/3 cannons depending on his strat. Then Macro like a beast and make mass dt with like 12 goons and obs. Go around killing his obs with goons and dting him + expoing, u should be able to win atleast one game with ths strat, untill ur opponent figures out he just has to kill ur obs lol. If he firgures out he just has to kill ur obs and ur still in the game, then he should be really behind and u should be able to finish him off pretty easily. !!!!
Skipping Observers and using mind controlled Overlords to counter Lurkers. Maelstorm / Psionic Storm to avoid Scourge. Could be done in tandem with Bisu or while skipping Stargate.
On February 02 2008 03:11 Chill wrote: Skipping Observers and using mind controlled Overlords to counter Lurkers. Maelstorm / Psionic Storm to avoid Scourge. Could be done in tandem with Bisu or while skipping Stargate.
lol
Try to beat some noob like Bisu did on peaks ( he built a manner pylon in the mineral line of his opponent then he added two gates ).
On a a traditional map like LT, after a FE vs Zerg, cannon another main and expo instead of teching fast, while going around cannoning zerg expos if they try to match. Use mass cannons to defend vs ling / hydra while teching to mass sair reaver dt off 3 base and another easy nat to take.
On February 02 2008 03:11 Chill wrote: Skipping Observers and using mind controlled Overlords to counter Lurkers. Maelstorm / Psionic Storm to avoid Scourge. Could be done in tandem with Bisu or while skipping Stargate.
On February 02 2008 03:28 JensOfSweden wrote: Aphelion that sounded quite cool but hydra ling will quite easily overrun your cannons though
You won't be getting gas till late, and you will have to MASS cannons. There shouldn't be any motivation to skimp, if you defend, you will have 3 base vs low econ zerg and it should be easy from there.
The thing which concerns me is that you can't transfer probes, and you will be so strapped for minerals you might not even have enough probes to beat the economy of a normal FE for quite a bit. There's got to be a reason this idea hasn't caught on.
Pvt 2 proxy stargate scouts opening, 1 gate goons to hold ramp while using scouts + micro to prevent him from getting anti-air. Probably more suitable on a map where a terran is less likely to make many marines at the start. May require micro of two groups of scouts at the same time.
Also if you feel like doing one of a different race (reverse matchup)...
TvP on a map like tau cross, show the protoss 2 fact, kill the probe as soon as you can, and float the second fact outside of the main. Make vults from one fact and raid the main (similar to proxy fact) while using tanks from the other fact to defend against a goon attack, and eventually expand.
PvP, fast dt try to injure him as much as possible, take nat as soon as dt comes out and then make like 2/3 cannons depending on his strat. Then Macro like a beast and make mass dt with like 12 goons and obs. Go around killing his obs with goons and dting him + expoing, u should be able to win atleast one game with ths strat, untill ur opponent figures out he just has to kill ur obs lol. If he firgures out he just has to kill ur obs and ur still in the game, then he should be really behind and u should be able to finish him off pretty easily. !!!!
nAi.PrOtOsS you honestly think that's potentially the best possible strat? It sounds more like something bizarre that you imagined and not something you actually think could be the best possible way to win.
Goon/DT/Obs is generally a delaying tactic or just a tactic to get a few free kills. I can pick off my opponent's obs and send in 2-3 DT's and maybe kill his HT's and make him retreat. Obs generally fall behind a moving army so they're hard to pick off and if my opponent is in a defensive position, the loss of goons won't be worth it or it just won't be possible to kill his obs. And all that just to make him retreat to the cannon(s) he's sure to have at his nearest expansion.
So basically I'm saying it's a good idea to have a few DT's in your army and look out for the possibility to kill your opponent's obs, but to mass DT in order to do more damage is to ruin the risk vs reward assessment of the tactic.
Anyway I'm uploading a FPVod of me massing DT just cuz PvP was the first game I got and nobody else gave any PvP suggestions...
On February 02 2008 04:19 micronesia wrote: Pvt 2 proxy stargate scouts opening, 1 gate goons to hold ramp while using scouts + micro to prevent him from getting anti-air. Probably more suitable on a map where a terran is less likely to make many marines at the start. May require micro of two groups of scouts at the same time.
I can try this but it is so easily defeated that I'm not sure it's worth it. It's like hoping there aren't marines, hoping there isn't an early ebay, hoping he doesn't do a build that can break 1gate goons trying to hold a ramp. Also I think Terrans are checking for proxy buildings now more than ever if their scout detects a lack of protoss spending.
I was thinking about the following. PvZ, early late-game, Zerg is hiding behind sunk/spore/lurk making expos hard to take out, you already have archives and stargate, why not throw down an arb tribunal so you can recall his main and take out all this tech, by passing his defenses completely, or an important expo or whatever. The zerg army also completely sucks when its out of position against a rampaging toss ground force like that so it will have a hell of a time taking you down (will probably counter though). (In which case if you could stasis a ramp to save your expo that would be so pimp). (Or just stasis some ultralisks).
Standard FE opening, directly into 2StarGate Corsair, directly into mass Carrier. Never spend gas on anything but StarGates, Air-grades, 8 Corsairs and Carriers. Use excess minerals to Cannon the FE heavily.
Eventually try to sneak-cannon a new base or seize islands. Get Disruption Web as needed.
Not getting the Carrier-build busted is a huge advantage. The larger window you get before Defilers, the better. Every investment in Lurkers, Lings and Spores is win.
Works on B-level Iccup, fun build to know.
PvT:
1 Gate Range-goon directly into 2StarGate Carrier off one base.
Boblion I don't really consider something that's already been done successfully in a professional match as theorycrafting. If you're going to reference a replay or VOD like I requested, then you have to say what I should do differently and why you think it'd be better than what the player in the game did. I already directly copy pro's strategies enough
On February 02 2008 06:02 NonY[rC] wrote: Boblion I don't really consider something that's already been done successfully in a professional match as theorycrafting. If you're going to reference a replay or VOD like I requested, then you have to say what I should do differently and why you think it'd be better than what the player in the game did. I already directly copy pro's strategies enough
No problem. But i still think that it is the craziest strategy i have ever see in broodwar. And until i saw the vod i thought that this strategy was pure theorycraft.
I bet my signature ( for 3 month ) that you cant do it vs someone higher than C :D
On February 02 2008 04:19 micronesia wrote: Pvt 2 proxy stargate scouts opening, 1 gate goons to hold ramp while using scouts + micro to prevent him from getting anti-air. Probably more suitable on a map where a terran is less likely to make many marines at the start. May require micro of two groups of scouts at the same time.
Also if you feel like doing one of a different race (reverse matchup)...
TvP on a map like tau cross, show the protoss 2 fact, kill the probe as soon as you can, and float the second fact outside of the main. Make vults from one fact and raid the main (similar to proxy fact) while using tanks from the other fact to defend against a goon attack, and eventually expand.
I saw a replay of the toss who beat nada with disruption webs: Map is Blitz X, he starts with a proxy stargate, he makes some scouts, then expo and fast carriers.
freelander he goes scouts then carriers but wins with disruption web? what happened?
boblion i'll try to do it but people don't play peaks anymore and i dunno where i'd do it. i guess it's possible on 12 or 6 python but that's a 4 player map.
nono, you misunderstood, disruption web vs nada was his trademark game, I just forgot his ID ~~ edit: I remember now, he is Asuka, a Samsung practice partner.
He built about two scouts to annoy his opponent and counter early attacks, expoed, and went to carriers immediately.
It seemed a good build on Blitz X, imo it can work well on Katrina.
boblion i'll try to do it but people don't play peaks anymore and i dunno where i'd do it. i guess it's possible on 12 or 6 python but that's a 4 player map.
Maybe you could try on blue storm ( i guess it is the most played 2 player map nowadays ). But there is no ramp to hide your main
Standard FE opening, directly into 2StarGate Corsair, directly into mass Carrier. Never spend gas on anything but StarGates, Air-grades, 8 Corsairs and Carriers. Use excess minerals to Cannon the FE heavily.
Eventually try to sneak-cannon a new base or seize islands. Get Disruption Web as needed.
Not getting the Carrier-build busted is a huge advantage. The larger window you get before Defilers, the better. Every investment in Lurkers, Lings and Spores is win.
Works on B-level Iccup, fun build to know.
PvT:
1 Gate Range-goon directly into 2StarGate Carrier off one base.
How would this work once the Zerg built hydralisks? You wouldn't have enough carriers.
you're referring to asuka-jk I think, anyway I have another idea involving corsairs in PvT, you start with an early aggressive drop strategy, like 2 zea +1goon as first drop and 1 rea 2 zea as second, and you keep on dropping in this way, you might say "it won't take too long untill I will stop because of turrets", well, you specifically aim his turrets and try to delay him tfrom getting them up around all his perimeter, in the meanwhile you make an hidden gas expansion, or if you're cocky you take directly your nat, and you add a stargate, fleet bacon and disruption web ASAP while dropping, when your 2nd nex is up you add another robo, so that you're pumping hardcore zea + reavers + shuttles and you have some corsairs, in this way you will keep on dropping nonstop, making disruption webs on the turrets, I think that with godly micro and a good bo which allows you to get dwebs ready soon enough, it can be devastating. The follow up can be, like in the asuka-jk vs nada replays, a goon + corsairs army
This is kind of vauge but the mu is PvT, map python, you play standard pvt but after u have your natural you tech to templar tech make a sark archon and upgrade mind control you fly it into the terrans base mc a scv then take your island expo with the scv mamin a command center you continue to play standard pvt while slowly techin up to tanks/arbiters, late game you do an arbiter recall of tanks and zelots into one of their expansions or main w/e ends up bein a more important target at thetime.
Basically it's a 2 gate pressure opening into expo. Now the idea is that instead of making a forge, you go for 6 gate dragoon with no stargate without making canons (at least until you want to move out or you sense you will automatically die without canons). The idea is that you aim to have a gigantic army quickly that will discourage zerg from taking a 3rd base, which will eventually lead to you outexpoing the zerg and rolling him over. Note that you don't go mass goons all game, this is just to keep you from being destroyed by mutas early while at the same time not making you extra weak because you're lunging for templar tech. Rekrul commented that it was a nice strat noob vs noob. I want you to test it on a higher level!
On February 02 2008 06:53 UbRi wrote: you're referring to asuka-jk I think, anyway I have another idea involving corsairs in PvT, you start with an early aggressive drop strategy, like 2 zea +1goon as first drop and 1 rea 2 zea as second, and you keep on dropping in this way, you might say "it won't take too long untill I will stop because of turrets", well, you specifically aim his turrets and try to delay him tfrom getting them up around all his perimeter, in the meanwhile you make an hidden gas expansion, or if you're cocky you take directly your nat, and you add a stargate, fleet bacon and disruption web ASAP while dropping, when your 2nd nex is up you add another robo, so that you're pumping hardcore zea + reavers + shuttles and you have some corsairs, in this way you will keep on dropping nonstop, making disruption webs on the turrets, I think that with godly micro and a good bo which allows you to get dwebs ready soon enough, it can be devastating. The follow up can be, like in the asuka-jk vs nada replays, a goon + corsairs army
I hope you didn't write this in a serious manner. You won't have half the gas to pull this off. Sorry.
Basically it's a 2 gate pressure opening into expo. Now the idea is that instead of making a forge, you go for 6 gate dragoon with no stargate without making canons (at least until you want to move out or you sense you will automatically die without canons). The idea is that you aim to have a gigantic army quickly that will discourage zerg from taking a 3rd base, which will eventually lead to you outexpoing the zerg and rolling him over. Note that you don't go mass goons all game, this is just to keep you from being destroyed by mutas early while at the same time not making you extra weak because you're lunging for templar tech. Rekrul commented that it was a nice strat noob vs noob. I want you to test it on a higher level!
This was a common build back when R-Point was played. As zerg had a though time taking his expo on close pos against zealot rush, you went 2 gate, pressure rallying all your zealots. When he went a little bit defensive (using drones to sunk) you warped a nax and a forge.
basically what I'm suggesting with my previous post is a hardcore drop strategy, with 2 robos, with corsairs support in between the 1st and the 2nd robo (otherwise they would be too late), and a 2nd gas also, I know that the expansion might be the problematinc point of the opening but the strategy is very gas heavy and I don't know if it's possible to do it with a single gas. Corsairs can be used against wraiths, if the terran decides to use them to stop your drops, to kill floating buildings, (imagine what if, in a hurry to make turrets, the terran notices he's lost his ebay), and, most important, to dweb strategic turrets or spare sieged tanks that are covering sensible areas, like his mineral line, this would allow you many free shots to his workers, and to have a free ride over his base with your shuttles
PVP, Ok heres another Dt based strat. Basicaly you do a fast dt, expo with cannons. Macro like a beast again but this time instead of dt/obs/goons u make mass zeo with speed/storm/archon. Basicaly the dt is used to slow down maybe even kill ur opponent and then even if he does survive he will most likely expo after a bit and then ur zeo/archon/storm army will come and rape him at the right time before he has any payoff from his expo investment.
Basically it's a 2 gate pressure opening into expo. Now the idea is that instead of making a forge, you go for 6 gate dragoon with no stargate without making canons (at least until you want to move out or you sense you will automatically die without canons). The idea is that you aim to have a gigantic army quickly that will discourage zerg from taking a 3rd base, which will eventually lead to you outexpoing the zerg and rolling him over. Note that you don't go mass goons all game, this is just to keep you from being destroyed by mutas early while at the same time not making you extra weak because you're lunging for templar tech. Rekrul commented that it was a nice strat noob vs noob. I want you to test it on a higher level!
This was a common build back when R-Point was played. As zerg had a though time taking his expo on close pos against zealot rush, you went 2 gate, pressure rallying all your zealots. When he went a little bit defensive (using drones to sunk) you warped a nax and a forge.
I propose not putting down that forge in my strategy. But it's very important to do what you can to ensure that he doesn't know you didn't put down the forge (so it might be a good idea to hide that 3rd gate and core away from prying eyes).
Oh wow I was thinking about an awesome PvZ build I haven't seen done before just last night before I went to bed. For an alternative FE style I was thinking to do a Gate -> Shield Battery -> Nexus build using the SB in place of the forge for your wallin, then going into +1 speedzeals or 2stargate sair/reaver or something like that. What I was thinking is that you can stop any early ling attacks with the one zealot in your manmade choke using the shield battery, and save a little money in the process, possibly getting your nexus out earlier. I also had the thought that it would hinder your offensive strength less since your spending money on earlier zeals instead of cannons. This build in theory might have some trouble with mutalisks unless you can figure out the proper cannon timing after the nexus goes down.
On February 02 2008 08:35 Scorpion wrote: Use Corsairs with disruption webs PvT instead of going Arbiters or Carriers.
I tried it once... didn't work out so well.
It can work well.. but not instead of arbi or carrier. An alternative, what I can tell you: against FE terran, you expo as well, you take your second gas ASAP. Get a stargate to place, where your opponent can't scout it. Meanwhile you keep up goon production from about 4 gateways (you won't have money for more) and cut probe production, start building corsairs and get web ASAP. You should get a shuttle with zealots too.
After 5-6 corsairs, stop making more. Delay the terran push as much as you can, don't lose goons. You should have about 2 groups of goons now and 5-10 disruption webs ready. Don't let your opponent scout your corsairs until you want to use them!
If your opponent expoed a second one or set up his tanks in a clumped way, you should attack him. Now it's time for you expo again anyway.. Raise your gateway number now and research speed for zealots. Don't build more corsairs!
If you are in a kind of good position, start building carriers. If you have no advantage, stick to ground.
Standard FE opening, directly into 2StarGate Corsair, directly into mass Carrier. Never spend gas on anything but StarGates, Air-grades, 8 Corsairs and Carriers. Use excess minerals to Cannon the FE heavily.
Eventually try to sneak-cannon a new base or seize islands. Get Disruption Web as needed.
Not getting the Carrier-build busted is a huge advantage. The larger window you get before Defilers, the better. Every investment in Lurkers, Lings and Spores is win.
Works on B-level Iccup, fun build to know.
PvT:
1 Gate Range-goon directly into 2StarGate Carrier off one base.
How would this work once the Zerg built hydralisks? You wouldn't have enough carriers.
9 out of 10 B-level Zergs beg to differ.
Even if Zerg gets a mighty horde of Hydralisks (which takes more time than you think), he will be hard pressed to defend expansions and main and prevent you from expanding. Surprisingly soon, a Protoss can field a 6 Carrier fleet from 2 geysers, which keeps growing.
I would post some replays, but I hate uploading files to weird servers.
Chill and Bond(i2) : I like it so I'll be trying it soon.
Aphelion: I'm not too confident in your theory. Offensive cannons are supposed to stop zerg expansion? How can I defend my 3rd Nexus before the cannons finish? It seems like 6-8 lings can shutdown any attempt I have at making a 3rd Nexus or of cannoning his expansions. I think this gameplan may be possible in very specific situations, like if I see an opportunity to set up these cannons, but I don't think I can go into a game with this gameplan.
Zherak: Your PvZ Carrier strategy just doesn't add up against a Zerg taking 3-4 bases early on and making Hydras. I've made PvZ Carriers on Arcadia by starting out with FE, going corsair/reaver, taking my min-only and an island, then going Carrier. It would work if the corsair/reaver stage did sufficient damage and then the Carriers were only good with reaver support. Comparing your faster but weaker Carrier strategy to that, and also comparing it to a simple corsair/reaver strat, I fail to see how it could be any better. For PvT Carrier from one base, I see no reason why this would work and you give no reason. It's very common among the pros to get Carriers from 2 bases, only after some advantage has been gained. There are a bunch of reasons why that way works better than straight off 1 base.
Anyway, I'd be happy to watch some replays of you beating B rank iCCup players with Carriers so I can see what is happening. If I think the Zergs are playing intelligently and well, and not losing just because they don't know any better, then I'll try it out on much better Zergs.
IntoTheWow: I like that and I think it has been done a bit on Azalea, but I'd like to try it in some other situations. I don't think double robo would be good though. I'll try it with 1 robo unless I'm doing a bit slower once I've got a 3rd Nexus.
Kingsp4de20: I have already done strategies like that and they are absolutely not worth it. stenole: I will try your strategy but I don't have much confidence in it I can probably make it work against newbies but I think more skilled players can own it. And if it does have a decent success rate, it's still risky and I think it would only end up useful for disadvantageous maps or against opponents significantly more skilled than me.
UbRi: Your idea won't work because there won't be enough zealots and dragoons. I have done 2zeal + 1goon drop followed by 2zeal + 1reaver drop and the Terran can just kill all the zeals/goons/reavers. If he can't kill them all, then he's dead anyway. Why would you target turrets if you can kill his units? If you can't kill his units, why would you target his turret just to give safe passage to the next shuttle full of units that are going to die? Dexxus: There's no point in making a block if you have no cannons behind it. The lings will just kill the gateway or the shield battery. The shield battery can't block the same as a forge anyway. Also, as you begin to point out, the cannons are useful for more than just that initial setting up of the FE. Also, a build order of pylon, forge, nexus, cannon will give better econ than a gateway battery nexus build.
freelander: I might try the dweb in PvT like Asuka did. But, of course, it's already been done and nobody did it again after so many years, so I suspect that good players found reasons why it's not a good idea.
Grinq: I'm not going sair/reav PvP lol. The sair/goon PvT is already covered and I said I'll try it. I have seen a great "mass goon" strategy in Much vs Yarnc @ Katrina today that I think I'm gonna work with. But that's not quite theorycrafting, just copying and deepending my understanding.
On a more serious note, I've recently played 14 nex -> 2 gate goon -> scout/reaver PvT on Nemesis (although vs a really crap terran) where I've almost won the opening phase (managed to get back into the game with carriers). The point is in stacking scouts like you would do with mutas (manner pylon a probe behind your minline) and harassing with them. If terran is stationary, make golies pursue the scouts into reaver scarabs, if he doesn't have enough AA, kill tanks with scouts. That's in theory. I guess it's not that viable on maps where 12-14 nex PvT is already a huge risk, but looks like it could actually work as a surprise buid.
12-14 nex is there to get a REALLY guick geyser #2. 2 gate goon means the appropriate amount of ranged goons to fend off any aggro before you get scouts.
Also the same could be viable with Carrier/Reaver but I think that is less probable as carriers take a load of time to build up power, unlike scouts who are useful even in small numbers, carriers are crap until there's at least 5 of them.
Oh, and somehow abuse the fact that the path between a forge and a citadel of adun (built on near tiles, without a 1 tile gap, citadel to the right of forge) is passable for all units in the game except ultralisk.
On February 02 2008 09:54 RtS)Night[Mare wrote: instead of going dt sair, go mass scout with upgrade on speed, and mass dt vs zerg. Ovies pop faster : )
Some of these opponents play somewhat weak, but part of it is them facing a strategy they haven't countered 1236236 times. G5.rep is a somewhat decent game.
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1 replay of PvZ 2-base Carrier.
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EDIT2: 1 replay of PvZ 2-base Carrier versus 12pool speedlings (?) -> 3 Hatch Hydra Cannon break:
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EDIT: No FE->2StarGate Scout vs Zerg is fun too. Scouts don't cost that much gas.
This isn't exactly what you requested... but you can ignore it if you want.
It's a game less than 10 minutes long on tau cross. PvZ where zerg does that mass 6/7 hatch hydra build vs a protoss FE and i'm not a nub or anything but I find it really difficult to counter. What strategy would you use against this build?
If you go FE you can't really stop them from doing it since you have no early pressure so your only choice is to somehow mass off 2 base for a while and move out?
Quick question, why don't people recall on top of tank lines? Is it just not effective because the units all teleporting in at the same time usually gets blasted away or just that stasis more efficient? It seems like if they have a dozen tanks, it's better to recall on top of half of them instead of stasising half.
I was trying to figure out a way for scouts to be useful...
I had an idea for PvP.. The situation, which might be the tricky part, is when you have reason to expect they will go for a quick reaver harass build. Maybe 12/3 or 6/9 on Python? Basically the idea would be for a standard tech build to start, but then instead of going robo, getting a stargate and then a scout. Kindof a version of the TvP quick wraith build... you place the scout in a nice spot to catch his incoming shuttle and snipe it while it's not over land. That's pretty much the point of it.. then I guess you could harass their probes with a scout or two and when they bring goons back you pressure the front with your goons, etc. I figure stargate/scout are about the same cost/time as robo/support/shuttle/reaver, right? The main problem, of course, is that they could easily get obs first and scout you out. Maybe hide the stargate? What do you think?
The other thought I had which is even less fleshed out is PvT.. At a point when you would go carriers, instead build scouts and get speed upgrade for them. The idea being quick hit and run tactics.. might work well on something like Katrina where late game their bases will be very spread out and with convoluted walking paths goliaths would never be able to catch up to them.
I could be smoking crack, but that's what this blog thread is for, right?
On February 02 2008 10:45 f10esqftw wrote: I was trying to figure out a way for scouts to be useful...
I had an idea for PvP.. The situation, which might be the tricky part, is when you have reason to expect they will go for a quick reaver harass build. Maybe 12/3 or 6/9 on Python? Basically the idea would be for a standard tech build to start, but then instead of going robo, getting a stargate and then a scout. Kindof a version of the TvP quick wraith build... you place the scout in a nice spot to catch his incoming shuttle and snipe it while it's not over land. That's pretty much the point of it.. then I guess you could harass their probes with a scout or two and when they bring goons back you pressure the front with your goons, etc. I figure stargate/scout are about the same cost/time as robo/support/shuttle/reaver, right? The main problem, of course, is that they could easily get obs first and scout you out. Maybe hide the stargate? What do you think?
The other thought I had which is even less fleshed out is PvT.. At a point when you would go carriers, instead build scouts and get speed upgrade for them. The idea being quick hit and run tactics.. might work well on something like Katrina where late game their bases will be very spread out and with convoluted walking paths goliaths would never be able to catch up to them.
I could be smoking crack, but that's what this blog thread is for, right?
The first one: IMO it's not efficient in any way. You can't scout very well, you are unprotected to DTs (!! important). In theory IF they didn't spot your awaiting scout and you do a perfect micro and you kill the filled shuttle MAYBE it can be worth it.. The scouts can't be used to harass. A single goon negate your whole harassment.
Second: This could work IMO, but the scouts would be expensive as hell and the terran could use his VALKYRIES (lol)
lots of zealots, the tanks shouldnt auto target the DAs right?
If you could find a quick 4th gas (say on longinus) you should be able to get a zealot heavy army, enough dragoons to keep you from insta death and about 12 das to take out the tanks....maybe
but hey if you do mc control properly the TANKS WILL ATTACK THEMSELVES
I saw something sick in a highlight video of some clan where the toss, rather than use zeal bombs vs clumped tanks, hallucinated the sieged tanks instead so that mines ran into the hallucinations and rizzaped the tank line <3
In PvZ, on some two player map (or another map if you find them first), Forge FE at their natural expansion. Gotta send your probe out really early, and pray to god it doesn't get scouted. Risky as hell, but if you successfully get up your FE, thats game.
On February 02 2008 17:07 Sentenal wrote: In PvZ, on some two player map (or another map if you find them first), Forge FE at their natural expansion. Gotta send your probe out really early, and pray to god it doesn't get scouted. Risky as hell, but if you successfully get up your FE, thats game.
I don't think this works.
- 9 pool is too fast for your cannons, and he will see them on his way out - 12 pool, I don't really know about, but he should be able to stop with Drones if he spots it - 12 hatch expansion, he will see your Cannons and kill them with Drones (takes 2 Drones per Cannon, I think?)
And it is really difficult for him not to find your Cannons with either Overlords, expanding Drones, scouting drones or fast lings.
Hey nony, One thing i've been doing against some of more noober terran friends is incorporating mind control into the midgame, namely the use of mind control to take control of a tank near mines and pulls mines in (and watch the impending boom). If you could work it in some how it would be awesome <3
oh and perhaps you could mix in stacked carriers vs terran/stacked sairs vs zerg? (purposely trap a probe and use it as a stacking trick ala the muta trick)
I'm really interested to see if trapped-probe Carriers/Corsairs are any good. I always manage to trap a probe between StarGate/Pylon/Fleet Beacon anyway.
Well, I watched Zherak's replays and he does indeed beat B-level players; quite easily too, using 2stargate corsairs to carriers.
IDK if they were just caught off guard so much or what, but maybe that's part of the build than. Only thing I did notice (from the few games I watched) they were trying to pressure your natural real hard instead of expanding and powering, so maybe that would counter your build well.
Getting some darchons in PvP to feedback the opponents HTs. Feedback is cheap as hell, comes standard and should be able to kill a lot of hts before they get their storms off.
One question I have is about the quality of your opponents. Are you winning because your opponents are terrible (D-), or because the strategy is actually legit?
On February 02 2008 09:54 RtS)Night[Mare wrote: instead of going dt sair, go mass scout with upgrade on speed, and mass dt vs zerg. Ovies pop faster : )
no defense against scourge
with such air mobility, taking in mind that scouts fire to ground as well, couldnt you pick off the spire everytime the zerg pop it up?
On February 03 2008 05:50 Hittegods wrote: Getting some darchons in PvP to feedback the opponents HTs. Feedback is cheap as hell, comes standard and should be able to kill a lot of hts before they get their storms off.
I just tried it vs some D+ Zerg. He even wrote "wtf" when he saw that my 4 carriers were raping his 3rd and 4th expo so he tried to break my natural. With the mineral surplus, I can build 10+ cannons so his hydra brake failed miserably and he just typed out once he saw he had no hydra den and I was knocking on his door with Carriers/Disruption web.
On February 02 2008 22:29 Scorpion wrote: Zherak's strategy actually works... o_O
I just tried it vs some D+ Zerg. He even wrote "wtf" when he saw that my 4 carriers were raping his 3rd and 4th expo so he tried to break my natural. With the mineral surplus, I can build 10+ cannons so his hydra brake failed miserably and he just typed out once he saw he had no hydra den and I was knocking on his door with Carriers/Disruption web.
=O Going to try this more often...
Glad to see you have actually tried this.
If you do go ahead and use it, there are very few elements of skill involved in this strategy, but: - Carrier/Corsair micro, especially against large groups of Hydra. This is difficult. - Not wasting Corsairs. They cost lots of gas. - Knowing when you are just about to waste Interceptors. Losing Interceptors costs surprising amounts of minerals and they also take quite some time to rebuild. - Correctly using your mobility to hit and run. - Managing to get that new expansion up, either by Cannon'ing a ramp or Robotics -> Island. I hate spending those 200 gas though. - Not getting your Carrier-build spotted. Try to be somewhat stealthy with the extra StarGates and the Beacon and the Air grades.
Some good reasons to do this: - Really close positions, like PA or close Gaia or close Python. You can waltz into his main in three seconds. - Island expansions.
On February 02 2008 22:29 Scorpion wrote: Zherak's strategy actually works... o_O
I just tried it vs some D+ Zerg. He even wrote "wtf" when he saw that my 4 carriers were raping his 3rd and 4th expo so he tried to break my natural. With the mineral surplus, I can build 10+ cannons so his hydra brake failed miserably and he just typed out once he saw he had no hydra den and I was knocking on his door with Carriers/Disruption web.
=O Going to try this more often...
Glad to see you have actually tried this.
If you do go ahead and use it, there are very few elements of skill involved in this strategy, but: - Carrier/Corsair micro, especially against large groups of Hydra. This is difficult. - Not wasting Corsairs. They cost lots of gas. - Knowing when you are just about to waste Interceptors. Losing Interceptors costs surprising amounts of minerals and they also take quite some time to rebuild. - Correctly using your mobility to hit and run. - Managing to get that new expansion up, either by Cannon'ing a ramp or Robotics -> Island. I hate spending those 200 gas though. - Not getting your Carrier-build spotted. Try to be somewhat stealthy with the extra StarGates and the Beacon and the Air grades.
Some good reasons to do this: - Really close positions, like PA or close Gaia or close Python. You can waltz into his main in three seconds. - Island expansions.
Ah, thanks! If this works vs B Zergs then it will indubitably work vs D+/C-/C/C+/B- Zergs =D!!!
EDIT: Here's the rep, if you want to see what I did wrong/what I should improve on.
On February 04 2008 02:18 NonY[rC] wrote: god you guys are fucking horrible. it takes some REALLY REALLY stupid shit to make me lose to these newbs, but somehow you guys manage.
On February 04 2008 02:18 NonY[rC] wrote: god you guys are fucking horrible. it takes some REALLY REALLY stupid shit to make me lose to these newbs, but somehow you guys manage.
i saw scorpion replays, and yes, you were so far ahead after sair harrass that you could have won with anything that suited you. Winning against them with that strat doesn't prove that it is good.
On February 04 2008 04:48 PePe QuiCoSE wrote: i saw scorpion replays, and yes, you were so far ahead after sair harrass that you could have won with anything that suited you. Winning against them with that strat doesn't prove that it is good.
So you're saying that all P should just double star corsair harass from now on?
>_>!
EDIT: Played again, this time in a 1v1 play/obs game.
This is more a question for you Nony, but, during your PvZ -Python 2gate vod, you send out your zealots at 33/33 supply, which I understand but; how do you know he won't just go around your zealots and up your ramp? Would that be okay if he did that because of zealot reinforcements + probes and your zealots can still go to his base?
On February 04 2008 04:48 PePe QuiCoSE wrote: i saw scorpion replays, and yes, you were so far ahead after sair harrass that you could have won with anything that suited you. Winning against them with that strat doesn't prove that it is good.
So you're saying that all P should just double star corsair harass from now on?
>_>!
Huh? no, I'm saying that you had been so successful with that harass that you had ample margin to do anything you liked. It is to be seen how it works (timing ie) with not so much overlord popping.
On February 04 2008 04:48 PePe QuiCoSE wrote: i saw scorpion replays, and yes, you were so far ahead after sair harrass that you could have won with anything that suited you. Winning against them with that strat doesn't prove that it is good.
So you're saying that all P should just double star corsair harass from now on?
>_>!
Huh? no, I'm saying that you had been so successful with that harass that you had ample margin to do anything you liked. It is to be seen how it works (timing ie) with not so much overlord popping.
I mean, that's the whole point, harass the Zerg so that he wastes money on spores/scourge/overlords then surprise him with Carriers.
I see what you're trying to say though; you don't necessarily have to go Carriers, you can just mass speed zeals off 6-7 gates. Thing is, Zerg doesn't know what to do vs Carriers since they rarely see them in ZvP.
Go 8 pylon 10 forge (as if you are FE'ing). Put 2 or some cannons up (no nexus) to block any scouting lings (and maybe use probes if he has enough to run by). Proxy 2 (or maybe 3) gates somewhere (cut probes perhaps). He will think you to be fast teching and pumping probes, but instead you have cut probes and are pumping zeals. When his 2nd expo is done (that you hope he took), then make 1 or 2 zeals bang on his hatch, and force his few units to go to defend it, and then rush the rest of your zeals into his main and hopefully win.
Disclaimer: I suck.
edit: and I don't really know how you'd take care of an overlord other than wasting money on a core, or just cutting off half of your main with a canon by a nexus or something so his overlord can't access that half and just guesses.
On February 02 2008 13:21 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: I saw something sick in a highlight video of some clan where the toss, rather than use zeal bombs vs clumped tanks, hallucinated the sieged tanks instead so that mines ran into the hallucinations and rizzaped the tank line <3
May I second this? Sounds like something that might work really well, considering the range of HT spells; suicide a few units to cover the HTs and fire three hallucinations on some tanks that are spread apart a bit. Might take a lot of luck and a stupid terran to have the tanks sit on a pile of mines, but it just might work. Hallu in general is a spell I have seen used in only 2 (two!) games so far, rA vs GF on Parallel Lines and some rep where the dude uses mass hallucinated zealots to draw mines into a turtle defense and then mop up the rest with the real army.
Another idea without any BO to support it: MC mines or MC vults, lay mines and wait for his push to explode. IF the vults keep the mine upgrade, that is.
Edit: And not to forget, mass hallucinated carrier rush in any matchup with the objective to get the opponent to just give up and GG on the spot upon seeing a cheater amount of carriers.
Go 8 pylon 10 forge (as if you are FE'ing). Put 2 or some cannons up (no nexus) to block any scouting lings (and maybe use probes if he has enough to run by). Proxy 2 (or maybe 3) gates somewhere (cut probes perhaps). He will think you to be fast teching and pumping probes, but instead you have cut probes and are pumping zeals. When his 2nd expo is done (that you hope he took), then make 1 or 2 zeals bang on his hatch, and force his few units to go to defend it, and then rush the rest of your zeals into his main and hopefully win.
Disclaimer: I suck.
edit: and I don't really know how you'd take care of an overlord other than wasting money on a core, or just cutting off half of your main with a canon by a nexus or something so his overlord can't access that half and just guesses.
On February 04 2008 02:18 NonY[rC] wrote: god you guys are fucking horrible. it takes some REALLY REALLY stupid shit to make me lose to these newbs, but somehow you guys manage.
Considering this post, that seems very plausible SpiritoftheTuna
NonY[rC] I really like what you are doing. You help others and invest your own time.. offcourse you would have an advantage too, if there is a good strategy, but its still very nice.
If you have any strategies you want to try out vs terran just contact me, I would be glad to face you just because I like to play different styles / strategies and kill off all cheese-tries ! + I would say I'm not too low in TvP !
This would probably only work against a D noob PvT, but go one base carrier w/ templar hallucination (maybe take your expo and go 2 base if it's too unbelievable). Get a carrier and hallucinate it three times to get 7 carriers total. Now enter from the back of his base and attack random things but not so often that he'll realize nothing is taking damage. Try to get a GG on the spot.
I will give you mad props if you can pull this off.
Go 8 pylon 10 forge (as if you are FE'ing). Put 2 or some cannons up (no nexus) to block any scouting lings (and maybe use probes if he has enough to run by). Proxy 2 (or maybe 3) gates somewhere (cut probes perhaps). He will think you to be fast teching and pumping probes, but instead you have cut probes and are pumping zeals. When his 2nd expo is done (that you hope he took), then make 1 or 2 zeals bang on his hatch, and force his few units to go to defend it, and then rush the rest of your zeals into his main and hopefully win.
Disclaimer: I suck.
edit: and I don't really know how you'd take care of an overlord other than wasting money on a core, or just cutting off half of your main with a canon by a nexus or something so his overlord can't access that half and just guesses.
you're not going to be able to stop ol scout
remember that game on Python where I killed you with that fake FE->proxy 3 gate strat? lololol
Go 8 pylon 10 forge (as if you are FE'ing). Put 2 or some cannons up (no nexus) to block any scouting lings (and maybe use probes if he has enough to run by). Proxy 2 (or maybe 3) gates somewhere (cut probes perhaps). He will think you to be fast teching and pumping probes, but instead you have cut probes and are pumping zeals. When his 2nd expo is done (that you hope he took), then make 1 or 2 zeals bang on his hatch, and force his few units to go to defend it, and then rush the rest of your zeals into his main and hopefully win.
Disclaimer: I suck.
edit: and I don't really know how you'd take care of an overlord other than wasting money on a core, or just cutting off half of your main with a canon by a nexus or something so his overlord can't access that half and just guesses.
you're not going to be able to stop ol scout
It can work very well. Hell I've used it vs B+ zergs. Just need to pay attention to if/when his overlords will see your nexus.
PvP on Tau Cross Ever noticed that you can block the "chokes" on that map with 1 pylon? Guess you have, but here's a nice way to use it. I don't really follow korean pro-gaming and that "strat" is probably not news to you, but I can proudly say I made it up myself Soo here's how it goes: You will be going 1 gate cyber and if your opponent goes for a 2 gate (or 3 gate even zealot rush) block his choke with a pylon when he's about to attack and you can easily buy a lot of time. This can even be repeated when he's close to your choke (also your goons will be able to fire when his zeals are attacking the morphing pylon).
If he goes for a 2 gate rush and you're 1 gate coring you can probably hold regardless without wasting the minerals on pyloning his choke, but it'd be funny to be doing a gate forge and cannon that.
On February 02 2008 13:21 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: I saw something sick in a highlight video of some clan where the toss, rather than use zeal bombs vs clumped tanks, hallucinated the sieged tanks instead so that mines ran into the hallucinations and rizzaped the tank line <3
I've done this before. It's actually not that effective, as the hallucinations get blasted away pretty much immediately, you have to waste 150 mana on hallucination (I think), and your Templar are more useful as stormers.
On February 02 2008 04:19 micronesia wrote: Pvt 2 proxy stargate scouts opening, 1 gate goons to hold ramp while using scouts + micro to prevent him from getting anti-air. Probably more suitable on a map where a terran is less likely to make many marines at the start. May require micro of two groups of scouts at the same time.
Also if you feel like doing one of a different race (reverse matchup)...
TvP on a map like tau cross, show the protoss 2 fact, kill the probe as soon as you can, and float the second fact outside of the main. Make vults from one fact and raid the main (similar to proxy fact) while using tanks from the other fact to defend against a goon attack, and eventually expand.
I did that once. Some guy showed up with a fresh Battle.net account asking for me by name, so I assumed it was a pissing contest, so I did that build. I won.
On February 02 2008 03:25 Aphelion wrote: On a a traditional map like LT, after a FE vs Zerg, cannon another main and expo instead of teching fast, while going around cannoning zerg expos if they try to match. Use mass cannons to defend vs ling / hydra while teching to mass sair reaver dt off 3 base and another easy nat to take.
That's my strategy for very long haha, doesn't work very well since after awhile the hydras stgart to own the cannons real hard.
EPT
