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* Disclaimer * - This is solely my own opinion. Any "we's" are purely incidental and general.* Disclaimer *
In response to the following post: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?currentpage=3&topic_id=65544
Okay, I'm first of all going to pre-face this post by saying that I understand it's usually a bad idea to respond to "feedback," whether your a musician, author, commentator or anyone else producing something that might be considered to be in a "creative" field, since it is seen as being defensive and not being able to take criticism. After all, everyone has their opinion, and they are more than entitled to it. Put a 100 random people in a room and the chances of them agreeing on something are pretty much zero. I also know 100% that this is only likely to get me flamed even more or worse. Yet for some reason I felt compelled to respond here, for reasons I'll try and outline below. That being said... here I jump into the fire.
The first thing that strikes me when reading something like this, is what the motivation of the author might be in giving feedback.
Is it to provide constructive advice to help someone improve something? Certainly I don't feel that is the case here, because the tone and nature of the post is highly negative as opposed to constructive and unlikely to achieve a positive effect. And I think because that is the intention of the poster rather than the reader. The "advice" if summed up amounts to "you suck, get better."
Is it to educate the world about the lack of quality in our commentaries? Maybe. If so.. why? It's not like we are asking anyone to pay anything for them. It's not as if they are the only available avenue for watching these pro games. If someone disagree's so strongly and has such strong opinions no one is forcing them to watch? Is it because a lot of people out there do seem to enjoy them and that irks the poster for some reason?
Is it to discourage us from making these commentaries to begin with? I don't know. I again don't see what the point of that would be. It's not like were stopping anyone else from doing it. Nor are we claiming anything above and beyond what we are doing.
While I'm on this point I'm gonna call B S on the arguement about "newbies" being potentially damaged by listening to our commentaries. First of all, it's not like we're trying to teach creationism as a science in schools. We are just giving OUR OPINIONS on the game of starcraft. We've never claimed to be the final word or authority on that. People are welcome to disagree with what we have to say on the game, and there is nothing wrong with that, but that's not the same as making a vitriolic attack with the sole intention to undermine. Secondly. It's idiotic to suggest that someone's play will become WORSE by watching a commentary. At the end of the day we provide some basic analysis and our opinion, people can take that on board or not. The best way to improve is to actually PLAY starcraft, and see what works and what doesn't and to practise it. And obviously watching pro-games is a big help. Still everyone is watchig the same game as I am. If they think there is some weight in my strategic insight about what is happening then that is up to them. They MAY try and adopt it into their game playing, and if it works great, if it doesn't then they'll prolly try something different. No one is trying their hands or giving them an exam at the end of the day. I think it's disingenous and ridiculous to suggest that players can be damaged by listening to these commentaries, especially when you have no real evidence beyond opinion to back that up. I'm not going to discuss higher level gamers yet because I'll come to that later.
On to the issue of commentaries and why I do them, since I can't speak for mole and digg.
I do them because.
1. I love starcraft.
2. I enjoy doing it.
3. I feel my commentary adds some value, be it enjoyment, humor, energy, insight, whatever to the game.
I think the fact that most of my you tube videos get 2,000 - 4,000+, views suggests to me that a lot of people enjoy watching my commented vods, for WHATEVER reason, and this also motivates me to keep going. I've had a lot of comments from people who say they don't even play starcraft anymore. They just like watching cause it's fun. Personally, I feel anything that helps grow and sustain the starcraft e-sports scene is a good thing, and should be supported, whoever happens to be doing it, but obviously I might be biased in having that view point.
Now the big stuff - analysis or strategy or whatever.
I'll ask zulu directly here if he has ever tried doing a commentary, on the fly, never having watched the game first. Especially if you are one person doing it solo... here is what it involves.
1. Watching the game.
2. Thinking about the game.
3. Commenting on the play by play.
4. Anticipating what's happening and what might happen and commenting on it.
5. Trying to think of appropriate references to past games that are relevant to what's happening.
6. Throwing something funny or humerous into the mix.
7. Balancing all of the above while trying to avoid dead air.
In the context of that, it's easy to miss something, or not count the exact number of drones each player has and suss out the exact build, or predict exactly what is happening and why. I'm not saying our knowledge may not be lacking, but the knoweldge is only one part of the picture. I can guarentee you, if I watched every single game before hand, several times, I could be a lot more accurate about what I am saying, and think a lot more deeply about it and provide more depth. I think anyone could. I think watching a game once or twice or thrice. Then sitting down and pointing out with specific time indexes, whatever points you have to make, having the luxury of no other distractions to think about and infinite time to gather, compose and articulate your thoughts as you type out a post is an ENTIRELY different ballgame.
If we were trying to produce a "teaching tool" only for games then our approach would be wholly different. As it is, I at least am not. Nor have I ever claimed to.
On the issue of higher level players themselves. Maybe they won't gain as much, or enjoy our commentaries. Fine, fair enough. Because that's not what I'm trying to do anyway. I'm not trying to teach the pro's how to improve. I've already outlined above what I am trying to do. But I don't see why that grants them a lisence to look down upon or belittle us. It's not like I'm claiming i'm a better player than X or that I KNOW more about starcraft than Y.
Ultimately I come back down to purpose.
We're talking the time and effort out of our very busy lives to do something because we enjoy it, and because we feel that other people also enjoy listening to it. It's our attempt to contribute and add to to the starcraft community.
If you honestly have such a low opinion of what we are contributing, and are so confident in your own prowess, why don't you have a go at doing it yourself?
As for comparisons to tasteless or other commentators, I'm not going to get into that because it's a whole other debate entirely, and a dangerous minefield to boot.
I think it is far easier to be an armchair general and criticise others than actually putting in the effort it takes to do something constructive.
And no, for reasons I've outlined above, this blog is not the same as doing a live commentary on a game you have never seen before or know nothing about.
What is that they say about judging a man without walking 10 miles in his shoes?
I started doing commentaries 7 months ago. I've had a lot of criticism and feedback. Yet never have I had the urge to respond in the manner that I have today. Maybe because for the first time, I feel like this isn't just feedback but a personal attack/flame. Maybe I'm silly and shouldn't swallow the bait. I don't know.
The last thing I want to say on the issue of "FEEDBACK," and whether the intention is positive or negative, constructive or destructive is by the comprehensiveness or lack of the person giving the feedback. I think if you base your opinion of our work on just one game, or even two or three games, it suggests that your approaching it beforehand with your mind already made up, with the sole purpose to look to tear it down rather than add to it. I think if it was someone who had maybe even watched HALF of my vods, and then gave feedback, it was something that would be a) more helpful and b) more likely to be constructive. Because maybe something was missed in one vod that wasn't in another. Or maybe someone had an off day. WHatever. If maybe your blog was just about the analaysis of ONE vod it would be different. But a lot of grand general statements are being made, and I think generalising is always a wrong thing to do. You can't see one guy of any race and make up your mind that all the guys from that race are ugly.
I guess ultimately, this blog is just someone's rant, about why they dislike something and has no higher purpose. Just as my commentaries, are just some guys opinion on a game of starcraft, to be enjoyed or not or whatever.
Which I guess makes this reply of mine a non-sequitor, so I'm going to stop here.
 
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I absolutely love your commentaries. To me its entertainment, a replacement for tv.
Why did you write this? You could have done a couple commentaries for this amount of time!!!!
edit: although, since you are writing a novel this probably took you no time at all.
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gogo Klazart... you're the best of the commentators. I think you guys do a great service for the community and it's very enjoyable to listen to your stuff. Just have fun with it, be funny, and do the best job you can.
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Brililant in-depth analysis by Klazart
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klaz i must say i have held off eating dinners just waiting for your awesome commentaries to enjoy them with, love your work
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On January 24 2008 13:43 fight_or_flight wrote:
I absolutely love your commentaries. To me its entertainment, a replacement for tv.
Why did you write this? You could have done a couple commentaries for this amount of time!!!!
edit: although, since you are writing a novel this probably took you no time at all.
its in response to zulu the uber troll's post
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I think your commentaries bring things to the table that outweigh any number of strategic concerns: Energy, humor, and love of the game. Your excitement in every game is contagious. Your commentaries make me see why the Koreans love their silly game so much.
Keep on the good fight, sir Klaz!
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One product can't satisfy every audience. Others may disapprove of your actions and hold you in contempt, but, as I'm sure you know, there will still be those who agree with you wholeheartedly and greatly enjoy your work.
It's the result of having an opinion. Given the scope of your commentaries, something as low as a 60% approval rating wouldn't be something to be overly frustrated about. Of course, everyone has room to improve, but at one's one pace. Laboring to fulfill the requirements of others never ends well.
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United States13896 Posts
zulu shouldn't have picked on a novelist ...
keep doing what you're doing Klaz!
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This may be totally out of place, but I believe the results may be gratifying
Poll: How do you feel about Klazart commentaries
(Vote): Excellent
(Vote): Good
(Vote): Ambivalent
(Vote): Bad
(Vote): Terrible
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One of the best posts I've seen in a while now. Amen ^^
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Thanks for the commentaries, Klaz! I dont know Korean so it's good to see some energy and excitement added to the game in English.
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United States20665 Posts
I'm not particularly familiar with you; I've watched a couple of your commentaries but that's it.
As for Zulu, I've got nothing against him, and most veterans are fairly friendly [with the exception of certain grudges]
So maybe you should take my comment with a grain of salt. But basically, while I wouldn't be as hardline about it as Zulu, I agree with many of the things he's said in his blogs/posts. Bly really likes his Chinese commentators. I've listened to Chinese commentators (a lot of them actually). They've got some advantages over you, which makes them better in some ways.
For example - most of them are/were competitive gamers. That gives them a strategic analytical edge. Furthermore they have access to supply numbers and suchlike, which is always helpful. They're also able to control where the screen points to, etc etc. And perhaps most importantly, since it's a job of sorts, they're able to dedicate all their work hours to it.
However, I would say this: I really love your energy. And I suppose your accent is nice. But the vitality you bring to the commentaries is exceptional. Sometimes those Chinese commentators sound uninspired and dull, no matter how sharp their substance is. You have a definite edge in that area - love of the game such as you display is rare; you can learn strategy but learning passion is more difficult.
If you were to play more, it would be a great boon to both yourself, your commentaries, and your fanbase in general. I'm not saying you need to become some A+ ICC or join ToT or anything, but if you had increased gamesense it would both prevent attacks such as those of Bly while also bettering the quality of your analysis.
So, all in all - I agree with Bly's points, but think that you are able to overcome those challenges. Best of luck to you. Klaz fighting~!
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Klaz, let me tell you, it was you that brought me into Starcraft, it was you that brought me to Teamliquid. I started by looking through your commentaries and hunting down every last one I could find. Your VODs are wonderful.
I'm sure there are many like me.
I just wanted to tell you that.
You are amazing.
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On January 24 2008 14:26 Last Romantic wrote:
I'm not particularly familiar with you; I've watched a couple of your commentaries but that's it.
As for Zulu, I've got nothing against him, and most veterans are fairly friendly [with the exception of certain grudges]
So maybe you should take my comment with a grain of salt. But basically, while I wouldn't be as hardline about it as Zulu, I agree with many of the things he's said in his blogs/posts. Bly really likes his Chinese commentators. I've listened to Chinese commentators (a lot of them actually). They've got some advantages over you, which makes them better in some ways.
For example - most of them are/were competitive gamers. That gives them a strategic analytical edge. Furthermore they have access to supply numbers and suchlike, which is always helpful. They're also able to control where the screen points to, etc etc. And perhaps most importantly, since it's a job of sorts, they're able to dedicate all their work hours to it.
However, I would say this: I really love your energy. And I suppose your accent is nice. But the vitality you bring to the commentaries is exceptional. Sometimes those Chinese commentators sound uninspired and dull, no matter how sharp their substance is. You have a definite edge in that area - love of the game such as you display is rare; you can learn strategy but learning passion is more difficult.
If you were to play more, it would be a great boon to both yourself, your commentaries, and your fanbase in general. I'm not saying you need to become some A+ ICC or join ToT or anything, but if you had increased gamesense it would both prevent attacks such as those of Bly while also bettering the quality of your analysis.
So, all in all - I agree with Bly's points, but think that you are able to overcome those challenges. Best of luck to you. Klaz fighting~!
I'm not trying to be defensive, but this is my honest opinion
the problem is I really don't feel that zulu's post was well intentioned in any interpretation of the term. I think it was meant as an attack, a very personal and base one at that. As i've said. Over the last 7 months, I've had a lot of critique and feedback, RARELY does it feel like a flame or a troll.
This one does.
As for zulu's strategic insights. I stick with the opinion, that WERE we to watch these games before hand once or even twice before doing our commentaries, we would not miss very much of what he is talkin about. Hindsight is always 20/20. I honestly don't think he has said anything unique or deeply insightful in his post that most people wouldn't see watching the games a couple of times, (including us) IF we had the time to sit down and think about them without the other distractions of doing a full live commentary.
Yes it is different being able to work full time at something as opposed to a hobby.
As for me playing more. I can't, my RSI prevents it. Even though I'd love to.
Lastly. I just want to say that I appreciate your comments, last romantic, and your post is the perfect example of constructive criticism/feedback as opposed to destructive criticism/flaming/trolling even though I may not agree with all of your points.
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joohyunee
Korea (South)1087 Posts
I appreciate all the contribution you're giving to the BW community very much. What I don't understand is why everyone likes Tasteless when he only has slightly more depth in game analysis (which is something I think everyone agrees you can work on and make your commentaries SO much better). When I watch the Vods I actually understand what the commentators are talking about, and the only reason why is because there are 3 commentators: 1 who gets all excited and goes crazy when battles happen. 2 [usually Themarine] who sees the player's build and predicts (with very high percentage) what the player's gonna do and the 3rd... I really don't know... I can't really tell.
ANYWAY what I mean to say is that take the criticism as a grain of salt, and maybe it would be good to look over the Vod once so you get an idea of what the build orders are and how they help the player win/make the player lose (without giving it away ofc) so that you can do some analysis while building up the energy into the battles where things really get exciting and stuff.
all in all, you are doing an amazing job, and you are really really awesome for doing everyone who can't understand korean like me a HUGE favor. Mad props to you Klaz.
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Canada9720 Posts
good post, klaz. zulu's blogs are fairly unnecessary, and the bandwagoning there from a certain group of people is pretty much pretention.
if they really cared about commentaries (i say this half-heartedly, since a know that a few other guysd are planning on doing their own shortly as well) they'd make their own, rather than sit and naysay
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I agree with Klazart 100%. My beef with Zulu is that he seems to be attacking Digg/Mole/Klaz for no apparent reason. The commentaries aren't always correct and watching these VODs won't teach you fundamentals. However, unless i'm missing something, please direct me to where any of those three have said that they are trying educate other players or do anything other than entertain with their opinions? If you can show me this I will apologize, but i'm sure that the commentaries are because people enjoy them and that they like to do them.
Zulu, you say that you watch Chinese commentaries. If you do, than why don't you watch those, enjoy those and leave the people who like these ones alone? What do you intend to accomplish? Make Klazart/Digg/Mole reach a certain rank on iCCup (You seem to be obsessed with iCCup rankings ;p) before they can commentate? Maybe they should have to pass your personal inspection before being released?
I think you need to calm down and really ask yourself what your trying to do. It seems to me that you would be happy if these three just quit.
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Even if you can't play, I think there might be other ways to help with your game sense. While I'm not sure if this would work, I saw Karma/Seraphim posted a blog just now:
http://teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=65580
Perhaps you could do something similar? Maybe you could try posting your analysis of a game after your first watching and see what others have to say. Or maybe just rewatch your commentaries and see when your analysis is wrong and maybe why you go wrong. I suppose this is like gamers watching their replays and seeing what's wrong. Of course, maybe you already do this and my random tips are all to waste :p.
I enjoy the commentaries that the three of you post. It's entertaining to watch.
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Russian Federation12 Posts
On January 24 2008 14:46 joohyunee wrote:
I appreciate all the contribution you're giving to the BW community very much. What I don't understand is why everyone likes Tasteless when he only has slightly more depth in game analysis (which is something I think everyone agrees you can work on and make your commentaries SO much better). When I watch the Vods I actually understand what the commentators are talking about, and the only reason why is because there are 3 commentators: 1 who gets all excited and goes crazy when battles happen. 2 [usually Themarine] who sees the player's build and predicts (with very high percentage) what the player's gonna do and the 3rd... I really don't know... I can't really tell.
ANYWAY what I mean to say is that take the criticism as a grain of salt, and maybe it would be good to look over the Vod once so you get an idea of what the build orders are and how they help the player win/make the player lose (without giving it away ofc) so that you can do some analysis while building up the energy into the battles where things really get exciting and stuff.
all in all, you are doing an amazing job, and you are really really awesome for doing everyone who can't understand korean like me a HUGE favor. Mad props to you Klaz.
The problem with watching the game already is, yes you get a lot of analysis and you can predict everything that happens and never have any mildly incorrect statements, but it's not as natural. When you've already watched the game and know he's going to go gundam vs zerg, do you still pretend that you're not sure what he's going to build even though you already saw the game? Or do you say "In this game he will go for a 3 fac push vs zerg"? It seems more natural commentating on the game as it's being played and the excitement as it's happening.
Anyway, there was no reason for zulu (Is he even a top player as he presents himself to be?) to bash something that's so artistic in the making without any purpose to better it. It's no secret Klaz's commentaries are amazing. It was a sad day when he wasn't around to make these commentaries and I personally feel anyone that publicly tries to force him off these fantastic commentaries as opposed to constructively trying to improve them through feedback deserves a ban here. My reasoning is Klaz has contributed so much to our SC community here, just as Tasteless has, and zulu has contributed.. well, nothing.
-D|Q-}FiZZon{
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