EPTOn feedback and criticism - Page 4
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
When you put your work into the public sphere, no matter how good it is, it will receive criticism. There are two ways to respond to this criticism. You can evaluate it and determine if it's legitimate, then improve whatever you are doing so you receive less of it. Or, you can dismiss it and attack the person who criticized you. No matter how Zulu framed his words (he even made an apology about his tone I think), his concerns are legitimate. In order for you guys to improve on commentating games, you have to improve on your understanding of it, especially at the proscene. Commentating like many things is a constant improvement. Zulu and FakeSteve both made very legitimate points about the weaknesses in your commentaries. Instead of internalizing them and learning from them and possibly producing a better product next time, you've chosen to argue and attack them on issues that really aren't important relative to the heart of what they are saying. It's a shame, because for all the potential you guys seem to have, a reluctance or inability to receive criticism and improve is poison to your contribution here. It doesn't matter that they don't make commentaries. It doesn't matter that they don't seem to "recognize the contribution" you and moletrap and diggity or whoever put forth. Criticism and improvement are not about those things. Simply putting out commentaries isn't rocket science. Great commentating, however, is, and hopefully that's something you are actively looking to move toward. The bottom line is you guys are good but not great. Criticism is something that will help you get there. If being a great commentator isn't your goal, don't assert that all the flaws Zulu finds are simply stupid or illegitimate because of his "tone" or whatever. FakeSteve and Zulu have their own opinions, and you have yours. They aren't always right; I've argued with them (often heatedly) a lot of times. But disagreeing with someone is one thing. Defending your own work by attacking others with condescension, self-righteousness and false entitlement is completely different. Doing that won't make your commentaries better, and that's something we all want that. | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On January 24 2008 17:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Zulu isn't suggesting you stop, he's said repeated times that despite your somewhat mundane knowledge of the game, he appreciates what you do. Actually FakeSteve, one of Zulu's first posts said just that. On January 21 2008 14:27 zulu_nation8 wrote: I'm being nice, from what you and diggity come off as on Teamliquid I think you guys should stop doing commentaries but I fully understand your passion and respect the energy and work you guys have put in, but I doubt anyone is learning from them. Does that change your opinion at all? | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Diggity
United States806 Posts
First of all I actually really appreciated the 2nd feedback set. It was all really helpful information. I didn't appreciate the tone. Klaz also wanted to point out that post analysis is a lot different from in the mix analysis. So its helpful to keep that in mind when giving feedback. I'm not sure if I can emphasize this enough, but the 2nd feedback example was exactly what I was looking for. And really on all future commentaries I would appreciate the same because I really do think it will help me improve. What I think Klaz is primarily concerned about is the attitude surrounding the entire thing. While this could have been handled in a private manner Zulu went out of his way to make it public, which seems like a general attempt to belittle. Additionally from our perspective there seems to be this enclave of people watching and grumbling talking about "how we think we are so gosu" or something like that when its just not the case. It really does feel like there is a group of 40 or so people that are just sitting around badmouthing the commentaries and pointing out flaws not to make them better but because of some general ill impression of us or something. Really it feels like people are just sitting around in IRC talking trash and now that they have an opportunity to do it in public they are doing so. I have never claimed to be fantastic, because honestly at the moment I am terrible, but for whatever reason people get the impression that just because we are commentating on the games that we are laying hold to some sort of entitlement, we aren't. As klaz said earlier we do this because we enjoy ourselves and hope to draw people in to esports. We have never claimed to be professionals, we have only claimed to be enthusiast. Generally its really difficult to remain motivated to provide any of this considering the time commitment. Its extremely demotivating to put something out there in your free time and then have people rail against the very concept of it. Its like cooking a dinner for someone and instead of saying no thank you or "I prefer this other meal" they punch you in the face. Anyhow the main points I'm concerned with in general are 1) the general negative attitude that seems to be prevelant everywhere on teamliquid at the moment. and 2) I'm serious... I want feedback but I don't appreciate everything else that seems to be attached behind it. Seriously is there anyway that this could be generally resolved towards the betterment of the community at large instead of continuing with the general harsh feelings that seem to be developing. | ||
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Zherak
Norway256 Posts
As a moderately good player, I have yet to ever hear a commentary add anything to my understanding of the game. I have never heard a commentary which made me go Oh, so that's what he's doing, that's clever. English shoutcasts pretty much alternate between adding nothing for me (I actually have to group Tasteless in here), annoying me (by just sounding unprofessional) and making me cringe (by completely misunderstanding what is going on). Korean shoutcasts and audience add alot to the atmosphere of the game without pissing me off. Except when either player is clearly done for and they try to maintain the suspense. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 25 2008 01:02 Salv wrote: Actually FakeSteve, one of Zulu's first posts said just that. Does that change your opinion at all? Nope, because: On January 25 2008 01:08 zulu_nation8 wrote: Yes that was my first comment to moletrap, I've since then apologized and said I didn't want them to stop but only to make them aware the rampant, obvious mistakes in their commentaries Zulu is a friend of mine, remember. I know the entire situation very well  | ||
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aaroncarapace
United States7 Posts
I need to post about this because Klazart's commentaries have fast become my livelihood. I've discovered, in part thanks to Klazart, that I love watching professional Starcraft, even more than I like playing as an amateur (read noob). On merit and value: The hundreds of of ravingly positive comments, thumbs up, and good ratings of Klazart's YouTube videos is all the justification that is required. Klazart provides a hugely valuable service that is unrivaled in the English-speaking Internet. On difficulty of live commentary: I think some people may not understand how extremely difficult it is to deliver good commentary in real time. The recent incident of innocently suggesting the lynching of Tiger Woods should underscore how much inherent error there is in real time off-the-cuff remarks, even at the highest levels of professionalism. On feedback: This feedback by zulu is not typical of most feedback, in that it is clearly thoughtless and incendiary, but I suspect it was still offered for the right reasons. I genuinely beleive that most "Internet feedback," including that directed at English commentators, is truly intended to be helpful. Most people assume, perhaps wrongly, that people like Klazart and Diggity are interested in continually improving themselves, and like to offer whatever advice that have, perhaps as a way to partially recompense the author. The tendancy of people to be rude or antisocial when using the Internet seems only to be an unfortunate side effect. On improvement: I agree with zulu in that English commentaries can be improved, both in technical accuracy, and communication in general. Klazart's commentaries, despite their overwhelming awesomeness, are no exception. Klazart is a free man, and is welcome to use his life however he pleases, but secretly (or not) I hope he realizes the problems in past commentaries, and improves them in new commentaries. On compensation: My other now-not-secret wish is that the community can find some way to compensate Klazart and other people who excel to his level for the excellent service he is providing. Klazart's stuff is good, good enough to pay for. It's unfortunate that real world constraints mean ordinary sales of Klazart's work are impossible. Compensation would provide incentives to fix some of the more glaring problems in these commentaries. I have a list of things Klazart does that annoy the living crap out of me, but honestly, they're not really relevant. I hope Klazart continues doing the commentaries, because its obvious that whatever talents he might have, this is definitely one of them; whatever way he decides that he will commentate on Starcraft, I know he will do it superlatively, and I will listen. | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
Obviously not a big point, but then there was no real need to bring it up either. I have friends who aren't even that into Starcraft and only watch professional vods thanks to Klaz's english commentary. He's doing the foreign Starcraft scene a really nice service, and while there is definite weakness on the strategy side of things, he has I feel earned the right not to be mocked snidely or derided, especially by people who have a stake in this foreign scene. | ||
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MeriaDoKk
Chile1726 Posts
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.MistiK
Netherlands347 Posts
On January 24 2008 13:43 fight_or_flight wrote: I absolutely love your commentaries. To me its entertainment, a replacement for tv. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
If you get critisism that allows you to improve things, say thanks and continue working. If you dont feel it's improving your commentaries, I suggets you ingore him or at max like "thanks for trying to help, but I didnt really find it helpful". Then spend your time on your fans instead! Like me. And on that note: Is there any possibility that you could release the commentaries after the last torrent (about half a year ago?) in higher quality? It'd be fun to have them all in high quality. You can PM if you need help with sorting/uploading or anything. Sexual favours are (at least to some extent) excluded. | ||
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aaroncarapace
United States7 Posts
On January 26 2008 22:59 Cascade wrote: And on that note: Is there any possibility that you could release the commentaries after the last torrent (about half a year ago?) in higher quality? It'd be fun to have them all in high quality. You can PM if you need help with sorting/uploading or anything. Sexual favours are (at least to some extent) excluded. doubleplus on this. I've only seen the YouTube and Google Video commentaries, which leave a lot to be desired. Primarily, I hate not being able to see the mini-map very well. | ||
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Jyun
United States45 Posts
I can honestly say that I wouldn't have followed SC progaming if it wasn't for the English commentators. Years ago, I went to Korea, saw a lot of SC on TV, but really forgot about it after that. Klazart really brought me into the game and the world of e-sports, because the commentary was entertaining. I do think that my understanding of the game is increased by the commentaries, and the "feedback" remarked on greatly overstates any mistakes commentators have made, but this is actually besides the point. These commentaries serve an important function and take up an important role in bringing SC to other countries besides Korea, and the dedication and effort of the commentators should not be taken for granted. That's my $0.02. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
 Hope you find it cool here  Anyways, you've just bumped a pretty old thread. While your post was a quality post, and this discussion could continue with more personal insight from people like you, it was quite a heated argument back when this occurred. Bumping old threads (2 months or older) is usually looked down upon at teamliquid unless there's a good reason. So, just some friendly advice is not to bump old threads like these, as it may rekindle the fire of the flame war, or you may get flamed at yourself :o Good post though and welcome to teamliquid! | ||
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Pwntrucci[sR]
Canada1519 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
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[X]Ken_D
United States4653 Posts
If you want, I can write you short game analysis from my own experience. Maybe it can help improve future casting. Knowledge is good and all, but it's a waste if the voice isn't there. I remember someone saying about another commentator that was something like, "shit. that was one of the greatest game yet the commentaries put me to sleep." It's was the Iris vs Jaedong Proleague finals. | ||
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