On February 22 2025 09:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2025 08:38 Nebuchad wrote:On February 05 2025 08:54 Nebuchad wrote:
Thoughts on the thread, it is (obviously) not true that Americans have chosen racism. They're being faced with a choice between not racism and racism, and every four years they keep changing their pick. If racism was the important factor in their pick, they would either always pick Democrats (because of antiracism) or Republicans (because of racism). Clearly the fact that they keep changing their vote demonstrates that this isn't very important to them and they are dissatisfied with something else, perhaps the one thing that both parties have complete agreement on, which is gross, open neoliberal elitism? Wanted to harp on this a little because it's such an important point. For some reason the Georgia town hall didn't make it to the main thread, here are a bunch of republicans who aren't satisfied with their elected officials even though they still promise them that they'll hurt Mexicans and trans people. Now I understand that around october 2023 Kwark's brain broke a little and on some topics he can't think straight anymore, and that's a shame, but for everyone else it is seriously insane that you think what happened in that election is the US public agreed with republicans on social issues. First of all, the US public isn't a thing, people will vote for one candidate or the other for absolutely different reasons, most of them very bad. That's every election. The idea that there is a direct correlation between candidates' platforms and the will of the voters is childish. Second, the american public ISN'T VOTING FOR REPUBLICANS, why is this discussion even happening am I going crazy? You elect a guy from the other party every four years, and even then you need serious levels of gerrymandering and voter suppression for Republicans to be competitive. What was happening in 2020, was the american public suddenly protrans and antiracist, but in the last four years they changed their mind? The theory doesn't even match the facts. What is actually happening is that both parties are offering a governance that the public isn't satisfied with, so every time they get an opportunity to tell them that, they do. Obviously. Isn't it absolutely amazing to you guys that the Democrats are willing to give up on immigrants and trans people before they are willing to try any populist policy? Doesn't it tell you that what they care about above all is maintaining capitalism, as opposed to making sure that the capitalist system we are under espouses liberal values? I largely agree, I think you underestimate quite how effective things like trans scaremongering have been over the years though, and quite deliberately injected. Quite serious flips can happen, quite bloody quickly. One obvious example would be Muslims in the Western world pre and post 9/11, and we’re still feeling those effects to this day. Many an average Joe is still tolerant of our Muslim brothers and sisters, but for others well, 9/11 opened up a gate of prejudice that’s never been closed.
I think it's a bit different with muslims cause there's a large milestone event there, which obviously it was wrong to blame "muslims" for but we all knew that would happen. Similarly I'm sure there's more hatred of Russians as a people in Europe today.
I'm willing to say that trans messaging isn't as effective for two reasons, one because in 2022 the same messaging was there and Republicans lost an election that they were supposed to win, and two because of the way trans messaging is used in conversations, unless you're talking to Joanne it's always basically a way of dismissing someone. You think what you said makes sense, but lol you can't even define woman, lol. I'm fairly convinced that if someone was running on, like, minecrafting the US healthcare system, and the other guy was running on transphobia, you would even get some transphobes voting for the Minecraft guy. Even within transphobes, there's only a minority that cares a lot about transphobia.
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Northern Ireland23719 Posts
On February 22 2025 10:15 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2025 09:44 WombaT wrote:On February 22 2025 08:38 Nebuchad wrote:On February 05 2025 08:54 Nebuchad wrote:
Thoughts on the thread, it is (obviously) not true that Americans have chosen racism. They're being faced with a choice between not racism and racism, and every four years they keep changing their pick. If racism was the important factor in their pick, they would either always pick Democrats (because of antiracism) or Republicans (because of racism). Clearly the fact that they keep changing their vote demonstrates that this isn't very important to them and they are dissatisfied with something else, perhaps the one thing that both parties have complete agreement on, which is gross, open neoliberal elitism? Wanted to harp on this a little because it's such an important point. For some reason the Georgia town hall didn't make it to the main thread, here are a bunch of republicans who aren't satisfied with their elected officials even though they still promise them that they'll hurt Mexicans and trans people. Now I understand that around october 2023 Kwark's brain broke a little and on some topics he can't think straight anymore, and that's a shame, but for everyone else it is seriously insane that you think what happened in that election is the US public agreed with republicans on social issues. First of all, the US public isn't a thing, people will vote for one candidate or the other for absolutely different reasons, most of them very bad. That's every election. The idea that there is a direct correlation between candidates' platforms and the will of the voters is childish. Second, the american public ISN'T VOTING FOR REPUBLICANS, why is this discussion even happening am I going crazy? You elect a guy from the other party every four years, and even then you need serious levels of gerrymandering and voter suppression for Republicans to be competitive. What was happening in 2020, was the american public suddenly protrans and antiracist, but in the last four years they changed their mind? The theory doesn't even match the facts. What is actually happening is that both parties are offering a governance that the public isn't satisfied with, so every time they get an opportunity to tell them that, they do. Obviously. Isn't it absolutely amazing to you guys that the Democrats are willing to give up on immigrants and trans people before they are willing to try any populist policy? Doesn't it tell you that what they care about above all is maintaining capitalism, as opposed to making sure that the capitalist system we are under espouses liberal values? I largely agree, I think you underestimate quite how effective things like trans scaremongering have been over the years though, and quite deliberately injected. Quite serious flips can happen, quite bloody quickly. One obvious example would be Muslims in the Western world pre and post 9/11, and we’re still feeling those effects to this day. Many an average Joe is still tolerant of our Muslim brothers and sisters, but for others well, 9/11 opened up a gate of prejudice that’s never been closed. I think it's a bit different with muslims cause there's a large milestone event there, which obviously it was wrong to blame "muslims" for but we all knew that would happen. Similarly I'm sure there's more hatred of Russians as a people in Europe today. I'm willing to say that trans messaging isn't as effective for two reasons, one because in 2022 the same messaging was there and Republicans lost an election that they were supposed to win, and two because of the way trans messaging is used in conversations, unless you're talking to Joanne it's always basically a way of dismissing someone. You think what you said makes sense, but lol you can't even define woman, lol. I'm fairly convinced that if someone was running on, like, minecrafting the US healthcare system, and the other guy was running on transphobia, you would even get some transphobes voting for the Minecraft guy. Even within transphobes, there's only a minority that cares a lot about transphobia.
It’s been 24 years and there’s still a lot of anti-Muslim sentiment that didn’t exist before, outside of regular ‘I don’t like brown people’ racism
As per your other points, I think over time the backlash has intensified, so 2022 and the cultural lay of the land isn’t necessary 2025.
To put myself in the boots of a transphobe, it’s the difference between thinking they’re weird, I don’t like them but it’s kinda niche, I don’t encounter many versus they’re running around sexually assaulting our women in bathrooms. And I think attitudes have shifted with this deliberately cultivated attack vector.
I think you are correct in that head-to-head, however that dichotomy isn’t going to come up any time soon. Transphobia will be either mask on or off a part of the right’s general platform, and minecrafting the US healthcare system doesn’t seem likely to be a big Dem staple anytime soon.
Gun to the head, yeah I think people maybe go that way, but nobody’s going to be forced into that binary choice anytime soon.
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EPT
