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On October 09 2019 08:26 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2019 08:12 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:On October 09 2019 07:59 BerserkSword wrote:
dont let the door hit you where the good lord [flash] split you Please elaborate. I understand its easy making a personal attack, please explain why you feel Blizzards response was the correct one? Blizzard is a company. Companies need money to survive. Money comes from doing business in the market. China is one of their Blizzard's biggest markets. When the Hearthstone GM (and I guess the casters) broke the EULA and compromised Blizzard's ability to do business in one of its biggest markets, Blizzard did what it was entitled to do as both a business and one of the the entities in the EULA, in order to control any damage done. Whether or not Blizzard made the correct move from a business standpoint is yet to be seen. However Blizzard was completely within its rights to do what it did. Saving their business from catastrophe doesnt mean they are oppressing human rights. They are not complicit in anything the Chinese central government is doing. The Hearthstone GM hijacked the platform Blizzard gave him to endangered Blizzard's business. You break rules, like the ones in the EULA, you face the consequences. It's as simple as that.
What rules did the casters break? It is a slippery slope. If Blizzard starts censoring words like "winnie" and "pooh" in their games would that still be okay if it's saving their business? (Surprise they already do this on Chinese servers) Maybe hong kong will now be added to the list as well. What about if they start reporting accounts that are caught mentioning hong kong and protests to China? Wouldn't be surprised if they're already doing it given the swift action they just took in this case.
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On October 09 2019 08:26 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2019 08:12 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:On October 09 2019 07:59 BerserkSword wrote:
dont let the door hit you where the good lord [flash] split you Please elaborate. I understand its easy making a personal attack, please explain why you feel Blizzards response was the correct one? Blizzard is a company. Companies need money to survive. Money comes from doing business in the market. China is one of their Blizzard's biggest markets. When the Hearthstone GM (and I guess the casters) broke the EULA and compromised Blizzard's ability to do business in one of its biggest markets, Blizzard did what it was entitled to do as both a business and one of the the entities in the EULA, in order to control any damage done. Whether or not Blizzard made the correct move from a business standpoint is yet to be seen. However Blizzard was completely within its rights to do what it did. Saving their business from catastrophe doesnt mean they are oppressing human rights. They are not complicit in anything the Chinese central government is doing.The Hearthstone GM hijacked the platform Blizzard gave him to endangered Blizzard's business. You break rules, like the ones in the EULA, you face the consequences. It's as simple as that.
The bolded is a terrible argument. Just because they can do something doesn't mean they should. And just because they're within their rights, again doesn't mean they should.
This didn't have to be a catastrophe for Blizzard. What I think Blizzard should have done is basically nothing. Have a press release that they respect 1 party 2 systems and respect the principles of free speech blah blah blah if they must. What they did instead is inflame their western audience to appease their Chinese audience. Seems like their actions put them into a worse situation than before.
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On October 09 2019 12:34 Cauld wrote:
This didn't have to be a catastrophe for Blizzard. What I think Blizzard should have done is basically nothing. Have a press release that they respect 1 party 2 systems and respect the principles of free speech blah blah blah if they must. What they did instead is inflame their western audience to appease their Chinese audience. Seems like their actions put them into a worse situation than before.
Kind of seems like a lose/lose situation for them. By doing nothing they potential lose a giant and growing Chinese market. It seems untenable though to have to play censorship arm for the Chinese government.
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Northern Ireland27446 Posts
Fuck this move. I’m not privy to what pressure was actually exerted on Blizzard though
There’s such a difference between a hypothetical call from some Communist Party Official threatening to revoke Blizzard’s ability to operate in China, Blizzard acting themselves to not offend the Chinese, and everything in between.
Why ban the casters? From what I’ve read they weren’t active participants in this protest, indeed looked uncomfortable, albeit I haven’t seen the footage yet myself.
It’s just a symptom of a greater malaise in the games industry, namely that just making money isn’t sufficient any more, you have to make all of the money, all the time.
I am realistic about such things, I like to think I’m not an idiot but others are free to disagree. You can make plenty of money without trying to hoover up everything.
I don’t think we’ll see anything approaching previous gaming market crashes, but a gradual homogenisation of products for this purpose, various other practices of the industry etc I’m not sure are particularly sustainable in the long term.
It’s sad man. Sad.
Played Blizzard games since the age of 6, my first foray into the world of online gaming was the first Diablo when I was but a youngling. One of my earliest memories I can recall from childhood was being tricked into TPing to my death, losing all my gear in a high level dungeon. Another player sensed my distress, probably picked up I was pretty young. Jumped into the TP, cleared the area and killed the guy. Brought me back his ear, a mechanic I was unaware of previously. My eternal gratitude was earned and we played together whenever we were both on, never really knowing anything about the human behind the keyboard at either end.
Brood War hit and I loved it, although was too young to really get proficient on it. Winning a LAN co-op game with my brother on a gigantic custom map called ‘Supercontinent’ I made, playing mouse only because we didn’t know any better. Took 10 hours over two separate sessions.
Then of course Starcraft 2 hit, I found Team Liquid, became acquainted with the many varied personalities in our scene, lost a man I felt was a good friend despite never having met him, followed tournaments for 9 years. Ran some of my own in the local community and have made lifelong friends there, invading Wardi’s stream for Ireland’s sadly short lived run in Nation Wars this year.
Went to Dreamhack Winter 2011 where my boy Liquid HerO broke his tournament duck, and in said man finally discovered someone who chainsmoked as speedily as I did. Enjoyed a brief conversation with Idra, a rather personable man when detached from the stress of competition.
Were Blizzard ever perfect, even when viewed through my nostalgic haze? No but they made good fucking games, supported their games well and their head honchos seemed to love those games and the communities they spawned.
Fuck this man, why they ever merged with Activision is beyond me. Extremely bloody disappointed, will be cancelling my Reforged order tomorrow.
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
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Fuck blizzard. To deny a player his prize money, to fire two casters and essentially ruin 3 people's livelihood and then delete the video in an act of self censorship, using their rules and placing them as if they were inciting racism, all in order to placate China and its brutality.
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Italy12248 Posts
Just to be safe, I'll preface this by saying that the following are my own views and are in no way, shape or form an official stance of TL.net or the wider Teamliquid organisation (of which I'm not even part of).
Having gotten that out of the way, fuck Blizzard with a flaming cactus and fuck their authoritarian Chinese overlords. They can fuck over their franchises with pointless predatory phone games designed for the Chinese market all they want, but human rights is where one should draw the line. Taking the side of people using live ammunition against protestors is wrong, the fact that this is even up for debate is proof of just how fragile human rights are.
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it's extremely disappointing to see blizzard's overreaction, but keep in mind the larger context of the US-China trade war: many US companies are being targeted by chinese state media as perpetrating radical separatism in hong kong and unofficially being continually threatened and harassed by trade officials due to the current hostilities.
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Hey now, can't let a little genocide or human rights get in the way of business.
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Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
Am I the only one that feels this is in no way political? He acted like a retard spewing his own agenda abusing his broadcast time on Blizzards cost and got punished for it. I feel that if he was to do the same but instead talk about brexit or some other shit it would have ended up the same.
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i remember mkp had a sign he showed before a match? and it wasn't a big deal no one shat the bed
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On October 09 2019 19:32 Teoita wrote:
Just to be safe, I'll preface this by saying that the following are my own views and are in no way, shape or form an official stance of TL.net or the wider Teamliquid organisation (of which I'm not even part of).
Having gotten that out of the way, fuck Blizzard with a flaming cactus and fuck their authoritarian Chinese overlords. They can fuck over their franchises with pointless predatory phone games designed for the Chinese market all they want, but human rights is where one should draw the line. Taking the side of people using live ammunition against protestors is wrong, the fact that this is even up for debate is proof of just how fragile human rights are.
basically how I feel
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United Kingdom10003 Posts
On October 10 2019 00:55 HornyHerring wrote:
Am I the only one that feels this is in no way political? He acted like a retard spewing his own agenda abusing his broadcast time on Blizzards cost and got punished for it. I feel that if he was to do the same but instead talk about brexit or some other shit it would have ended up the same.
Hmm
This seems harsh on the caster, but from Blizzard's POV this is correct.
Are we asking them to be arbiters of exactly what politics is allowed or are we asking them to allow all politics?
If the answer is neither then Blizzard made the right call
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There's no real justification to take away $10 000 in prize money, and ban the guy for a year and promise to never hire the 2 casters ever again. If it was a strongly worded message and a month ban, that would be appropriate to deny all politics. This is a clear message to China and the rest of the world that Blizzard is kowtowing down to Chinese political interests.
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United Kingdom10003 Posts
On October 10 2019 03:23 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
There's no real justification to take away $10 000 in prize money, and ban the guy for a year and promise to never hire the 2 casters ever again. If it was a strongly worded message and a month ban, that would be appropriate to deny politics. This is a clear message to China that Blizzard is kowtowing down to Chinese political interests.
Yeah fair enough it was an overreaction.
The principle is correct though, they should either allow politics or not.
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United Kingdom12057 Posts
Blizzard China made these decisions and given how powerful the CCP are I'm sure it was either make this decision or put their own lives at risk.
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Glad there are a lot of people who realize how stupid this is. Seems to be waking up a lot of people to just how influential China is. Shit needs to stop.
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On October 10 2019 03:35 Qikz wrote:
Blizzard China made these decisions and given how powerful the CCP are I'm sure it was either make this decision or put their own lives at risk.
That is a good point. So many terrible stories out of the USSR where people were forced at gunpoint to make political statements that were the opposite of their beliefs. Maybe it still happens in Russia, maybe it is happening in China. You don't want to be take to the Gulag. When things are that serious and corrupt, you're throwing your life away for nothing.
But we're not in that situation, so as free people we should be willing to express our beliefs and demonstrate through our actions what we believe.
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Just checked out HS forums out of curiosity and there are shit ton of ppl who uninstalled/canceled sub and pre-order. Maybe they will think twice next time.
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EPT
