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Jaedong is without doubt the best zerg-versus-zerg player of all-time, and was so godlike at the match-up that people said he defied the usual laws of the match-up, ignoring hard build order counters with impeccable micro-management.
These are the top five players with the most number of zerg-versus-zerg matches played during their professional careers, as recorded by TLPD:
1. Jaedong: 260 matches (72.69% win rate)
2. YellOw: 222 matches (57.21% win rate)
3. GoRush: 217 matches (58.06% win rate)
4. ZerO: 213 matches (52.58% win rate)
5. ChoJJa: 204 matches (56.37% win rate)
Anybody who has over 200 matches played (therefore providing a sufficient sample size) converges around a 56% win rate, with the exception of Jaedong. There are players who have career zerg-versus-zerg win rates over 60%, but once we allow any sample size to go through without sufficient sample size, we end up with somewhat off-putting trivias like Horang2 having the highest career prototss-versus-protoss win rate of all-time.
I decided to look into the Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague (regular season, post-season, Winner's League games were all included) performance from Jaedong, and see if the rumours of Jaedong ignoring build order deficits with raw ability when he was at the peak of his powers was true.
First of all, these were the zerg-versus-zerg ProLeague records of the zerg players with the most number of zerg-versus-zerg victories during that ProLeague season:
1. Jaedong: 32-7 (82.05% win rate)
2. EffOrt: 17-10 (62.96% win rate)
3. Calm: 16-13 (55.17% win rate)
4. hyvaa: 15-12 (55.56% win rate)
5. Great: 15-14 (51.72% win rate)
Again, if we exclude Jaedong from the equation, the players who made their trade through playing a lot of zerg-versus-zerg, ended up converging with roughly a 56% win rate as well.
Jaedong played 39 games of zerg-versus-zerg, and after going through the VODs for all the games, I will list the build orders of the players involved to the best of my ability, and what should have happened, and what actually happened.
Now I defined build order hierarchy as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. 9 pool
Loses against 9 overlord pool
Loses against gas first
Loses against 12 pool
Wins against 12 hatchery
2. 9 overlord pool
Wins against 9 pool
Loses against gas first
Loses against 12 pool
Situational against 12 hatchery
3. Gas first
Wins against 9 pool
Wins against 9 overlord pool
Loses against 12 pool
Loses against 12 hatchery
4. 12 pool
Wins against 9 pool
Wins against 9 overlord pool
Wins against gas first
Loses against 12 hatchery
5. 12 hatchery
Loses against 9 pool
Situational against 9 overlord pool
Wins against gas first
Wins against 12 pool
So without further ado, these are the build-order dynamics of all 39 zerg-versus-zerg matches played by Jaedong during the Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague season, listed from the most recent, to the most ancient:
+ Show Spoiler +1. Match versus Hyuk
Jaedong's build order: 12 hatchery
Hyuk's build order: 9 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong defeat
2. Match versus EffOrt
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
EffOrt's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
3. Match versus OriOn
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
OriOn's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong defeat
4. Match versus EffOrt
Jaedong's build order: 9 pool
EffOrt's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
5. Match versus OversKy
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
OversKy 's build order: 12 hatchery
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
6. Match versus Modesty
Jaedong's build order: 12 hatchery
Modesty's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
7. Match versus ZerO
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
ZerO's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
8. Match versus hyvaa
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
hyvaa's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
9. Match versus EffOrt
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
EffOrt's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong defeat
10. Match versus Hyuk
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
Hyuk's build order: Gas first
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
11. Match versus Great
Jaedong's build order: 9 overlord pool
Great's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
12. Match versus Modesty
Jaedong's build order: 9 pool
Modesty's build order: 12 hatchery
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
13. Match versus Calm
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
Calm's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
14. Match versus HyuN
Jaedong's build order: 12 hatchery
HyuN's build order: 12 hatchery
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
15. Match versus OversKy
Jaedong's build order: 9 pool
OversKy's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
16. Match versus Luxury
Jaedong's build order: 9 overlord pool
Luxury's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
17. Match versus hyvaa
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
hyvaa's build order: 9 overlord pool
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong defeat
18. Match versus keke
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
keke's build order: 9 overlord pool
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
19. Match versus YellOw[ArnC]
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
YellOw[ArnC]'s build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
20. Match versus YellOw[ArnC]
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
YellOw[ArnC]'s build order: 9 overlord pool
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
21. Match versus sAviOr
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
sAviOr's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
22. Match versus EffOrt
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
EffOrt's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
23. Match versus Luxury
Jaedong's build order: 12 expansion
Luxury's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
24. Match versus HoeJJa
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
HoeJJa's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
25. Match versus YellOw[ArnC]
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
YellOw[ArnC]'s build order: Gas first
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
26. Match versus GGPlay
Jaedong's build order: 9 pool
GGPlay's build order: 9 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
27. Match versus ZerO
Jaedong's build order: 9 pool
ZerO's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
28. Match versus ZerO
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
ZerO's build order: 9 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong defeat
29. Match versus EffOrt
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
EffOrt's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
30. Match versus hyvaa
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
hyvaa's build order: Gas first
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
31. Match versus keke
Jaedong's build order: 9 pool
keke's build order: 9 pool
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
32. Match versus Stella
Jaedong's build order: Gas first
Stella's build order: 9 overlord pool
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
33. Match versus Kwanro
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
Kwanro's build order: Gas first
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
34. Match versus JiHyun
Jaedong's build order: 9 overlord pool
JiHyun's build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
35. Match versus Shark
Jaedong's build order: Gas first
Shark's build order: Gas first
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
36. Match versus RorO
Jaedong's build order: 9 pool
RorO's build order: 9 overlord pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
37. Match versus FireFist
Jaedong's build order: 12 pool
FireFist's build order: Gas first
What should have happened: Jaedong victory
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
38. Match versus Child
Jaedong's build order: Gas first
Child's build order: Gas first
What should have happened: Skill match-up
What actually happened: Jaedong victory
39. Match versus YellOw[ArnC]
Jaedong's build order: 9 pool
YellOw[ArnC]'s build order: 12 pool
What should have happened: Jaedong defeat
What actually happened: Jaedong defeat
To summarize, this is what Jaedong made out of his build order dynamics at the peak of his powers in the ProLeague:
Jaedong's record if he had a build order deficit: 7-4 (63.64% win rate)
Jaedong's record in a skill match-up: 14-2 (87.50% win rate)
Jaedong's record if he had a build order advantage: 11-1 (91.67% win rate)
As we can see, Jaedong rarely lost if the build order dynamic was even, or in his favour, almost to the point of it being an anomaly at the peak of his powers. However, even Jaedong was not immune to the coin flip nature of the zerg-versus-zerg match-up if lady luck was not on his side.
However, even if we single out games where he had build order disadvantages, his win rate remains respectable at 63.64% from his sample of 39 zerg-versus-zerg matches played during Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague season.
So the legend that Jaedong won all the time in his most potent match-up at the peak of his powers regardless of the build orders is quite clearly false, but he was so lethal if he had favourable or even situations in terms of build orders, that the only way to defeat him consistently was if you had a build order advantage, and even then it wasn't an easy task.
The best thing to do would be trying to figure out the expected win rates for the various circumstances in zerg-versus-zerg matches that Jaedong did not participate in during games played during the Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague season, but that would require me to individually figure out the build orders chosen in over 200 non-Jaedong zerg-versus-zerg matches. Considering how many crowd shots they tend to do during the early moments of the game instead of focusing on the initial build order choices, I definitely don't think I have the patience and time to do that. It was infuriating enough trying to do this for 39 matches.
Maybe I'll do the same for EffOrt (the second best performing zerg-versus-zerg player for this ProLeague season) and see if the statistics for him are noticeably different, when I have the time.
 
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Interesting analysis that clearly quantifies how sick JD was, thank you.
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Interestingly high %s for JD! JvZ at its best
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Do you have any insight (or even guesses) as to how big these build order advantages are relatively speaking? I don't know much about ZvZ, but it feels like 12 hatch vs 9 pool would be harder to overcome than gas first vs 12 pool for example.
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On October 28 2018 17:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Do you have any insight (or even guesses) as to how big these build order advantages are relatively speaking? I don't know much about ZvZ, but it feels like 12 hatch vs 9 pool would be harder to overcome than gas first vs 12 pool for example.
Of course, there is an entire spectrum involved, for example gas first builds struggles harder versus 12 hatchery than 12 pool. I didn't want to get any more than three options (ahead, even, or behind), because once you try to evaluate in more detail you have to consider the rush distances and routes of the starting positions and the directions in which the initial scouting overlords went, and once you encroach upon that territory I'm going run out of time, patience, and understanding, when the exact reason why I chose zerg-versus-zerg was how fast I could process the given information to do a rough around the edges analysis.
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appreciate the in-depth analysis of all the matches. it really highlights his awesomeness.
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What a nice way of showing his advantage in the match up! At the time it just felt like he won every game. This puts it so much better in perspective.
we end up with somewhat off-putting trivias like Horang2 having the highest career prototss-versus-protoss win rate of all-time
He was a pvp master though. Insanely good at that match up.
Bonus question: which match up for which player would you guys say was the most dominant ever in BW over a season? JvZ must have a good shot at that distinction i think?
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WOWWWWWWWWWWWW!!! AMAZING ANALYSIS SIR !!!!!!!
NOW I LOVE JAEDONG EVEN MORE (WHICH IS VERY VERY HARD) 
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On October 30 2018 04:47 Elroi wrote:What a nice way of showing his advantage in the match up! At the time it just felt like he won every game. This puts it so much better in perspective. Show nested quote +we end up with somewhat off-putting trivias like Horang2 having the highest career prototss-versus-protoss win rate of all-time He was a pvp master though. Insanely good at that match up. Bonus question: which match up for which player would you guys say was the most dominant ever in BW over a season? JvZ must have a good shot at that distinction i think?
I also think SnOw was insanely good at the protoss-versus-terran match-up during his professional years, but I would never consider him as a candidate for the title of the greatest protoss-versus-terran player within the context of professional Brood War, despite SnOw boasting the highest career win rate within the match up. Player capabilities, and their actual accomplishments as a professional are not the same thing.
For example, the name of the game within a ladder is to rank as highly as possible. There are no bonus points for being ranked lowly, but having a 100% win rate. Boasting a high win rate is infinitely more impressive coming from a player who battled his way through the top.
Horang2 has 84 protoss-versus-protoss games recorded by TLPD. The only high stakes protoss-versus-protss series he played was against Grape in the round of 16 of ABCMart MSL, which he lost. While he indeed was fantastic at the match-up, his win rates do not correlate what he achieved as a professional.
Stork had a career win rate of 71.43%, compared to the 64.29% win rate of Horang2 when both players had 84 professional protoss-versus-protoss matches under their belts, as recorded by TLPD. Win rates without proper context is one of the most misleading statistics one can offer as the proof of a player's greatness in my opinion.
+ Show Spoiler +
As for the question over the most dominant single match-up over the course of a season, I would first ask, how would you define a season? A ProLeague season? An entire calendar year worth of all competitions? 365 days cut across any point in time? Because if I'm just asked to cut any segment in time to represent a player's ridiculous dominance within a single match-up, I don't think anyone in history can top iloveoov's terran-versus-zerg match-up.
+ Show Spoiler +
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That about iloveoov is indeed insane. That was before my time watching broodwar so I didn't know about it. TvZ is a match up where terran seems to have dominated for long stretches historically so it makes sense that it should be a terran.
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i love your blogs so much
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United States996 Posts
On October 28 2018 01:18 Letmelose wrote:
So the legend that Jaedong won all the time in his most potent match-up at the peak of his powers regardless of the build orders is quite clearly false, but he was so lethal if he had favourable or even situations in terms of build orders, that the only way to defeat him consistently was if you had a build order advantage, and even then it wasn't an easy task.
this may be semantics but well - when you use 'all the time' then 'quite clearly false' its always going to be a true statement, but what I think you were getting at is that we were generally overestimating jaedong's ability to win bad build order mu's in zvz due to time passing by/his legendary status etc...if so, i'd counter by saying that going 7-4 in matchups where the build order win rate is well below 50% is still actually statistically a pretty titanic result.
other thoughts - jaedong went 10-1 with 9 pool opener and pretty consistently bodied with a 9 pool opener against 12 pool. of course opponent tendencies, bo variation to not be exploited, and maps will always dictate openings but man the coach really should have had him 9 pooling more.
as always, thanks. this info was awesome.
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iloveoov what a fucking beast, did people complain about terran imbalance like some are complaning now with Flash dominating back then?
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On October 31 2018 14:45 JieXian wrote:
iloveoov what a fucking beast, did people complain about terran imbalance like some are complaning now with Flash dominating back then?
People whining about top terran players having too much success has been an ongoing tradition that precedes Flash. I could comprise a list of famous industry members and players complaining about the terran race, but with how much abuse the likes of Last and Flash has been receiving, I don't think it is worth going over all that trouble just to spark flames once more.
I mean, when was the last time you ever saw people own up to their own faults instead of pushing aside responsibility? The maps were too difficult. I had too much scheduling demands. Terran is too broken. My opponent cheesed me instead of letting me play my game. I am better during practice, but had too much stage fright, I promise I'm the better player in a world that I just imagined where stage experience has zero influence on the results. I am not on good form, only the games where I play well and win are the games that displays my actual level of skill. My teammates are holding me back. I was unlucky and definitely would have won in alternate dimensions. The list goes on and on.
Dig deeply enough, you can make sure everything apart yourself was the problem. As a general rule of thumb, it is rather difficult to point out periods of time where the terran race was performing like absolute garbage for extended periods of time, like it is possible for the other two races, but literally anybody with a clue about the game agrees that personal skill and ability are the biggest factors in deciding the results. The circumstances don't have to be perfect for you to succeed, that is what losers do, wanting the world to cater to their personal requirements, instead of going out there and attaining greatness, regardless of what the odds are. However, people often try their best (even the lazy ones, because they were somewhat designed to try less than others), and start to blame outside circumstances once their best isn't good enough.
Of course, people who think the game is perfectly balanced without a hint of imbalance, or pretending that everything that Flash achieved is only due to his greatness are retarded too. Everybody is susceptible to changes in fortune and circumstance, and I do believe that he has pioneers like iloveoov to thank, and practice partners that changed his perception about the game to thank, and not everything came flooding out of his head in a magical moment of non-stop inspiration as if he could have done everything that he did no matter what happened before him and during his time as a professional. Every small factors even Flash never thought about played a role in contributing to his greatness. People sometimes go too far the other way, and say Flash would have done just as well with the other two races, and I highly doubt that. Do people even realize how unlikely Flash's success was with his best race?
If the template for standard maps were fastest maps, or 256 by 256 massive maps, if the reavers were still broken like in the old days, if the most successful players around happened to be protoss instead of terran, everything could have changed. It is so presumptuous to state that Flash would have succeeded to the degree he did no matter what happened, regardless of his race of choice, his team of choice, like he was just destined for supreme greatness.
People bitch. What stops them from bitching about even protoss, the race most sensible people would agree saw the least success on the competitive level? People have bitched about protoss race plenty of times. I guarantee you can induce rage from a bad terran player if you dark templar drop them enough number of times. They will pretend as if dark templars are the most broken units in the game. Maybe they are, but it doesn't stop them from being bad. Focusing on external factors makes people forget about how unsuccessful and bad they are. We are all guilty of it to some degree.
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I see that's interesting, to be fair, although Protoss has not seen much success at the absolute top tier, it is quite good at lower levels right? We have to look at none other than Artosis for some DT bitching hahaha.
I remember Flash vs Shuttle on Sylphid at 1:34:45 , when Tasteless was jokingly complaining about Terran being imbalanced, Artosis replied with "I'm so glad that Flash wins so much that you have your own moments of complaint". I am reminded about his rants on TL from way back haha
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On November 01 2018 20:11 JieXian wrote:I see that's interesting, to be fair, although Protoss has not seen much success at the absolute top tier, it is quite good at lower levels right? We have to look at none other than Artosis for some DT bitching hahaha. I remember Flash vs Shuttle on Sylphid at 1:34:45 , when Tasteless was jokingly complaining about Terran being imbalanced, Artosis replied with "I'm so glad that Flash wins so much that you have your own moments of complaint". I am reminded about his rants on TL from way back haha
There has been a protoss in every final four of all major tournaments since the sonic era. Protoss struggle to win championships, but that comes down to the player and not the race. The post kespa success of protoss players has been pretty remarkable. Even without Bisu players stepped up.
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On November 01 2018 20:11 JieXian wrote:I see that's interesting, to be fair, although Protoss has not seen much success at the absolute top tier, it is quite good at lower levels right? We have to look at none other than Artosis for some DT bitching hahaha. I remember Flash vs Shuttle on Sylphid at 1:34:45 , when Tasteless was jokingly complaining about Terran being imbalanced, Artosis replied with "I'm so glad that Flash wins so much that you have your own moments of complaint". I am reminded about his rants on TL from way back haha
Using amateur statistics to prove protoss strength is like saying the breastroke is a faster form of swimming for completing 100 metre records in contrast to the butterfly, because no novice swimmer swims faster using the butterfly compared to the breaststroke, due to the ease of mastery differing for the two styles. Ease of mastery, and potency once mastered are two entirely different subjects.
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I dont think he meant at amateur level. He talks about the pros that make it far in tournaments but didn't win. Nice analogy though 
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On November 04 2018 07:23 Elroi wrote:I dont think he meant at amateur level. He talks about the pros that make it far in tournaments but didn't win. Nice analogy though
I think some people have gone too far the other direction, and have become afraid to speak historical facts in case people take things the wrong way.
We can take reality at face value, and try to interpret the nuances of that reality. Once we add too many caveats to alter the reality in front of us, and attmept to break things down after that alteration has been made, we are no longer discussing reality. We end up discussing alternate realities. I'm not interested in talking about realities that cater towards people's preferred narratives, I'm interested in discussing what actually happened.
There are a myriad of explanations for why the protoss race as a whole saw less success at the competitive level compared to the other two races, but I don't think it is correct to assume there is only one possible explanation for all this (innate game imbalance being one of the possible causes), nor is it okay to ignore what actually happened, and pretend the protoss race was doing fine, once we add enough caveats.
Since this entire discussion started with how Flash causes game imbalance discussions, and whether the protoss race does well at lower levels of professional play, l'll actually look into the statistics from professional Brood War from 2007/03/15 (Flash's professional debut) to 2012/08/04 (end of professional Brood War):
I don't know what JieXian means by lower tier professional player (if that was indeed what he meant), but what if I personally define it as any ProLeague A team calibre player who is good enough to get on the ProLeague starting roster during the regular season, this was the distribution of the races for each of the ProLeague seasons (regular season portion of the Winner's League included):
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R1
Race with the most number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Terran (49 players)
Race with the least number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Protoss (33 players)
Shinhan 2007 ProLeague R2
Race with the most number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Terran (40 players)
Race with the least number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Protoss (34 players)
Shinhan 2008 ProLeague
Race with the most number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Terran (45 players)
Race with the least number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Zerg (28 players)
Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague
Race with the most number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Zerg (54 players)
Race with the least number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Protoss (47 players)
Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague
Race with the most number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Terran (49 players)
Race with the least number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Zerg (43 players)
Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague
Race with the most number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Zerg (43 players)
Race with the least number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Protoss (41 players)
SK Planet 2010/2011 ProLeague (last ever pure Brood War ProLeague)
Race with the most number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Zerg (31 players)
Race with the least number of ProLeague regular season roster level players: Terran (24 players)
Generally speaking it is the protoss race with the least number of A team calibre players, with the terran and zerg race taking turns with their time on top, with the terran race having the shortest duration as the least popular race amongst ProLeague A team level players.
Sure if you become selective enough with your criterion, you can argue that the protoss race found great sucess, but I think it is important to first establish the facts, then try to figure out the reasons why, instead of pretending everyone did fine.
Although I have not fact checked thoroughly, historically speaking, taking data from professional Brood War from the era Flash was involved in, I would guess that the protoss race had the least number of representation at the round of 16 level, with the terran race having the most representation at that level.
However, I also don't extrapolate from that historical detail, the protoss race being the most under-represented at the round of 16 for the major individual leagues historically speaking, and attempt to state the case that Bisu was held back in the major individual purely due to his race of choice, because Stork was playing the same race and had way more round of 16 appearances within the same time frame, while Flash and Jaedong were comfortably ahead of their contemporary peers in that regard.
There are a lot of factors to consider here, and people sometimes make arguments that I completely disagree with based on historical facts, but I think it is rather important to establish historical detail first, rather than completely denying what happened just to prevent idiots from trying to dismiss Flash's accomplishments with inane arguments loosely based around that historical fact. Those arguments can be broken down with sufficient logic, but denial of what actually happened historically would mean we have no basis to do any proper reasoning based on competitive play. Then we engage in never ending debates with complete abstractions, and parameters that are chosen differently for each individual.
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On November 02 2018 08:27 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2018 20:11 JieXian wrote:I see that's interesting, to be fair, although Protoss has not seen much success at the absolute top tier, it is quite good at lower levels right? We have to look at none other than Artosis for some DT bitching hahaha. I remember Flash vs Shuttle on Sylphid at 1:34:45 , when Tasteless was jokingly complaining about Terran being imbalanced, Artosis replied with "I'm so glad that Flash wins so much that you have your own moments of complaint". I am reminded about his rants on TL from way back haha Using amateur statistics to prove protoss strength is like saying the breastroke is a faster form of swimming for completing 100 metre records in contrast to the butterfly, because no novice swimmer swims faster using the butterfly compared to the breaststroke, due to the ease of mastery differing for the two styles. Ease of mastery, and potency once mastered are two entirely different subjects.
He isn’t using amateur statistics to argue anything about protoss strength at pro level. In fact he didn’t mention statistics at all.
Your post talked about people complaining about protoss despite the race’s lack of competitive success in pro games, but people can complain about something being strong at low level without inferring anything about pro play.
DT drop against a bad terran is a good example - the terran player can complain that it’s easy to execute and harder to defend at their level. It doesn’t mean they think DT drop is unfair in pro games and protoss is too strong at the highest level.
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Nice analysis, you can never talk about the JvZ enough, he's such a monster.
A little shame that his recent ZvZ has been lacking a little :/
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On November 05 2018 23:57 Sero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2018 08:27 Letmelose wrote:On November 01 2018 20:11 JieXian wrote:I see that's interesting, to be fair, although Protoss has not seen much success at the absolute top tier, it is quite good at lower levels right? We have to look at none other than Artosis for some DT bitching hahaha. I remember Flash vs Shuttle on Sylphid at 1:34:45 , when Tasteless was jokingly complaining about Terran being imbalanced, Artosis replied with "I'm so glad that Flash wins so much that you have your own moments of complaint". I am reminded about his rants on TL from way back haha Using amateur statistics to prove protoss strength is like saying the breastroke is a faster form of swimming for completing 100 metre records in contrast to the butterfly, because no novice swimmer swims faster using the butterfly compared to the breaststroke, due to the ease of mastery differing for the two styles. Ease of mastery, and potency once mastered are two entirely different subjects. He isn’t using amateur statistics to argue anything about protoss strength at pro level. In fact he didn’t mention statistics at all. Your post talked about people complaining about protoss despite the race’s lack of competitive success in pro games, but people can complain about something being strong at low level without inferring anything about pro play. DT drop against a bad terran is a good example - the terran player can complain that it’s easy to execute and harder to defend at their level. It doesn’t mean they think DT drop is unfair in pro games and protoss is too strong at the highest level.
Thank you Sero, you're right.
Letmelose, I was reflecting on how complaining about imbalance and unfairness happens in other situations too, although it might not be justified. The example I gave was how because people in low levels complain about Protoss despite it being the "weaker" race at the highest level.
Hence, the presence of people are complaints about something is not necessarily linked to that something actually being unfair or imbalanced.
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On November 08 2018 05:37 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2018 23:57 Sero wrote:On November 02 2018 08:27 Letmelose wrote:On November 01 2018 20:11 JieXian wrote:I see that's interesting, to be fair, although Protoss has not seen much success at the absolute top tier, it is quite good at lower levels right? We have to look at none other than Artosis for some DT bitching hahaha. I remember Flash vs Shuttle on Sylphid at 1:34:45 , when Tasteless was jokingly complaining about Terran being imbalanced, Artosis replied with "I'm so glad that Flash wins so much that you have your own moments of complaint". I am reminded about his rants on TL from way back haha Using amateur statistics to prove protoss strength is like saying the breastroke is a faster form of swimming for completing 100 metre records in contrast to the butterfly, because no novice swimmer swims faster using the butterfly compared to the breaststroke, due to the ease of mastery differing for the two styles. Ease of mastery, and potency once mastered are two entirely different subjects. He isn’t using amateur statistics to argue anything about protoss strength at pro level. In fact he didn’t mention statistics at all. Your post talked about people complaining about protoss despite the race’s lack of competitive success in pro games, but people can complain about something being strong at low level without inferring anything about pro play. DT drop against a bad terran is a good example - the terran player can complain that it’s easy to execute and harder to defend at their level. It doesn’t mean they think DT drop is unfair in pro games and protoss is too strong at the highest level. Thank you Sero, you're right. Letmelose, I was reflecting on how complaining about imbalance and unfairness happens in other situations too, although it might not be justified. The example I gave was how because people in low levels complain about Protoss despite it being the "weaker" race at the highest level. Hence, the presence of people are complaints about something is not necessarily linked to that something actually being unfair or imbalanced.
Agreed. The essence of the game isn't reflected by our subjective experience of the game.
I'm not even sure if the protoss race is the weakest race at the highest possible human level. While the protoss race has seen less success at the highest level of competition throughout history, Stork has said that if all players played without mistakes in judgement (all gamers playing as if they have map hacks), the protoss race has the upper hand over the other two races, but it is harder to achieve such a state because the information dynamics tend to be infavourable for the protoss race.
Even rewards in multi-tasking tends to differ between the races. In a well co-ordinated team melee setting between top players, it has become the general consensus that the protoss race exceeds the other two races in terms of performance. The combination of Flash, Last, and Mind couldn't do anything to the combination of Bisu, BeSt, and Shuttle. Zerg ex-professionals hate playing team melee setting versus top protoss ex-professionals because individually micro-managed corsairs and shuttles are harder to snipe with scourges, even if the scourges are exclusively managed by a single person.
So while I think it is okay to establish details over the result discrepancy between the three races, based on statistics, I do not trust people to make judgements on how that entails in terms of raw gaming balance issues, because everybody has their own subjective angle on the matter.
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On November 08 2018 08:16 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 05:37 JieXian wrote:On November 05 2018 23:57 Sero wrote:On November 02 2018 08:27 Letmelose wrote:On November 01 2018 20:11 JieXian wrote:I see that's interesting, to be fair, although Protoss has not seen much success at the absolute top tier, it is quite good at lower levels right? We have to look at none other than Artosis for some DT bitching hahaha. I remember Flash vs Shuttle on Sylphid at 1:34:45 , when Tasteless was jokingly complaining about Terran being imbalanced, Artosis replied with "I'm so glad that Flash wins so much that you have your own moments of complaint". I am reminded about his rants on TL from way back haha Using amateur statistics to prove protoss strength is like saying the breastroke is a faster form of swimming for completing 100 metre records in contrast to the butterfly, because no novice swimmer swims faster using the butterfly compared to the breaststroke, due to the ease of mastery differing for the two styles. Ease of mastery, and potency once mastered are two entirely different subjects. He isn’t using amateur statistics to argue anything about protoss strength at pro level. In fact he didn’t mention statistics at all. Your post talked about people complaining about protoss despite the race’s lack of competitive success in pro games, but people can complain about something being strong at low level without inferring anything about pro play. DT drop against a bad terran is a good example - the terran player can complain that it’s easy to execute and harder to defend at their level. It doesn’t mean they think DT drop is unfair in pro games and protoss is too strong at the highest level. Thank you Sero, you're right. Letmelose, I was reflecting on how complaining about imbalance and unfairness happens in other situations too, although it might not be justified. The example I gave was how because people in low levels complain about Protoss despite it being the "weaker" race at the highest level. Hence, the presence of people are complaints about something is not necessarily linked to that something actually being unfair or imbalanced. Agreed. The essence of the game isn't reflected by our subjective experience of the game. I'm not even sure if the protoss race is the weakest race at the highest possible human level. While the protoss race has seen less success at the highest level of competition throughout history, Stork has said that if all players played without mistakes in judgement (all gamers playing as if they have map hacks), the protoss race has the upper hand over the other two races, but it is harder to achieve such a state because the information dynamics tend to be infavourable for the protoss race. Even rewards in multi-tasking tends to differ between the races. In a well co-ordinated team melee setting between top players, it has become the general consensus that the protoss race exceeds the other two races in terms of performance. The combination of Flash, Last, and Mind couldn't do anything to the combination of Bisu, BeSt, and Shuttle. Zerg ex-professionals hate playing team melee setting versus top protoss ex-professionals because individually micro-managed corsairs and shuttles are harder to snipe with scourges, even if the scourges are exclusively managed by a single person. So while I think it is okay to establish details over the result discrepancy between the three races, based on statistics, I do not trust people to make judgements on how that entails in terms of raw gaming balance issues, because everybody has their own subjective angle on the matter.
I see, that's interesting, thanks.
Anyway I think you might have interpreted my initial reply in that different way because you're too used to people disagreeing with you.
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EPT
