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YellOw, the king of special events.
2001
Tournament: PSBmegapass Cyber Game Grand Prix
Participants: 17
Prize money: Unknown
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Tournament: 1st GameBugs Battle
Participants: 16
Prize money: Unknown
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2002
Tournament: 2001 iTV Newcomers
Participants: 12
Prize money: Unknown
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Tournament: KT Kings of Kings
Participants: 7
Prize money: ₩10,000,000
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Tournament: WCG Korea 2002
Participants: 67
Prize money: Unknown
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2003
Tournament: 2002-2003 KTEC KPGA Winners Championship
Participants: 10
Prize money: ₩10,000,000
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Tournament: GhemTV FindAll Challenger Open Starleague
Participants: 16
Prize money: ₩4,000,000
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Tournament: 5th iTV Ranking League
Participants: 99
Prize money: Unknown
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Tournament: 1st Yeosu Cyber Games Competition
Participants: 6
Prize money: Unknown
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Tournament: KBC Power Game Show Big Four Battle
Participants: 4
Prize money: Unknown
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2005
Tournament: Snickers All Stars
Participants: 8
Prize money: ₩22,000,000
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Tournament: 2005 Blizzcon
Participants (Koreans): 4
Prize money: $10,000
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Thoughts:
1) This is just a list of the tournaments YellOw won that's also listed on TLPD, there were other tournaments that YellOw won that have been forgotten without anybody bothering to record the details properly. Even if we pretend those tournaments never happened, YellOw is a twelve time gold medalist of special events.
2) To be entirely fair, although most of YellOw's championships were invitationals, he did win WCG 2002, attended by all the top professionals at the time except for BoxeR, who was already seeded into the main tournament. He also won 5th iTV Ranking League, when there used to be four individual leagues broadcasted on television, with a separate offline qualifying stage (not recorded on TLPD). This would probably be YellOw's only proper tournament victory, where he overcame everybody else in an open tournament setting, although iTV Ranking League got liquidated after its 7th incarnation in 2004.
3) That's it really. I just wanted to show that YellOw was a beast in invitational tournaments, and even won an open championship, although the broadcasting company that hosted it went out of business.
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Japan11285 Posts
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On August 19 2017 12:33 c3rberUs wrote:This tournament's title is kind of misleading. I thought it was an open tournament. Dayum,  YellOw and  RainBOw kicked ass in the iTV 5th Ranking League. Interestingly, kicked off a string of Zerg 1st place triumphs ( ChoJJa over  TheMarine, July over iloveoov)
Notable zerg triumphs in tournaments with over 50 professional (although the concept of a licensed professional was not always present) players participating in the tournament (obvious excluding the obvious tournaments now accepted as "major" individual leagues). I'm probably missing out on a lot, I don't know whether KIGL, or the PKO apart from the one H.OT-Forever won, had separate qualifying stages that's not listed on TLPD.
Basically any open tournament that had its organizer go out of business early on, had most of its records gone forever. Even details of iTV Ranking Leagues, an open tournament that went on for seven tournaments over the course of multiple years are next to impossible to find.
H.O.T-Forever in 2000 SBS Progamer Korea Open King of Kings (TLPD did not record all its games)
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/leagues/265_2000_PKO_King_of_Kings
GoRush in WCGC 2000 Korea
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[z-zone]SoO in KPGA August
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H.O.T-Forever in KPGA September
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TaewoO in KPGA October
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H.O.T-Forever in GhemTV StarLeague S2
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YellOw in WCG 2002 Korea
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YellOw in 5th iTV Ranking League
+ Show Spoiler +
H.O.T-Forever in WCG 2003 Korea
+ Show Spoiler +
July in 7th iTV Ranking League
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July in KT KTF 2004/2005 Premier League
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Jaedong in 2007 Seoul e-Sports Festival
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H.O.T-Forever must be sad that his prime took place before Ongamenet and MBC Game became de facto "major tournaments" of the scene.
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History is always written by the victors, and people will always pretend that the past scenes will have exact parallels to the present. The history of competitive Brood War scene before BoxeR's rise to super-stardom, as the poster-boy of Ongamenet, is basically a total cesspool of incomplete information that it is hard to grasp exactly who was winning what, and in which manner.
MBC Game lasted long enough to be remembered, but the same cannot be said for dozens of other tournaments that died out. I was reminded once again of how ridiculous it is to accept the words of the victors, when Ongamenet made a joke out of Bisu's career achievements by only listing his accomplishments in OGN StarLeague and WCG when he played in that promotional tournament on television.
YellOw is still remembered as one of the greatest zerg players in history due to his huge body of work, that he can have chunks of his career taken away, and still be remembered as a meme of sorts. H.O.T-Forever, and other 1st generation professionals who couldn't make enough of an impression in the more recent era where everything was more accurately remembered and recorded, have to be judged by those who were active during those times I suppose.
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Number of large scale (over 50 professional players participating) open tournaments won by players:
1) NaDa: 8
2) Jaedong: 7
3) Flash: 7 (Flash's championships had overall less player participation than Jaedong's)
4) iloveoov: 6
5) July: 5
6) Bisu: 4
7) sAviOr: 4 (sAviOr's championships had overall less player participation than Bisu's)
8) BoxeR: 4 (BoxeR's championships had overall less player participation than sAviOr's)
9) H.O.T-Forever: 4 (H.O.T-Forever's champiosnhips had overall less player participation than BoxeR's)
Although triumphs in open tournaments don't tell the entire story, H.O.T-Forever was a legend in his own right, in my opinion, the greatest zerg of all time before the arrival of YellOw, who would be cursed to win only tournaments that people would designate as special events, while being one of the greatest zergs in the "major" individual leagues in terms of overall achievements despite never having won any.
Number of any non-showmatch (more than 2 professional players) individual tournaments won by players:
1) Flash: 16 (9 recorded by TLPD)
2) NaDa: 15 (14 recorded by TLPD)
3) BoxeR: 14 (13 recorded by TLPD)
4) H.O.T-Forever: 14 (6 recorded by TLPD)
5) YellOw: 14 (12 recorded by TLPD)
6) Bisu: 12 (9 recorded by TLPD)
7) Jaedong: 10 (10 recorded by TLPD)
8) sAviOr: 10 (9 recorded by TLPD)
9) iloveoov: 9 (9 recorded by TLPD)
With his multiple invitations to promotional tournaments, and consecutive ASL triumphs, Flash has now overtaken NaDa as the holder of the most individual championships in the history of the game. I am not that confident that I didn't miss out any tournaments from a long time ago, and more recent tournaments after KeSPA abandoned Brood War, so if people are willing to correct some numbers I'd be glad to edit the list afterwards. The fact that Bisu, who is one of the greatest players of all time, and participated in multiple leagues during his streaming career, as well as being invited to numerous international tournaments and promotional tournaments, is trailing behind YellOw in terms of winning tournaments (invitational or otherwise) is telling of how successful YellOw was winning special events.
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Japan11285 Posts
It's a shame that even human history is recorded that way too. But in my desire to view history as it was rather than what it is today, I do view certain players with more distinction than most people. If H.O.T-Forever regrets the timing of his prime, I'm sure guys like St.Eagle, SsamJang, ChRh, TheBOy, etc also do. ^_^
The fact that Bisu is not in the same level on the list doesn't detract from his greatness in my opinion. There is no other Protoss player who has achieved the same level of success as him. That fact alone puts him in a special league of his own. I do say this with plenty of Protoss bias.
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On August 20 2017 01:51 c3rberUs wrote:
It's a shame that even human history is recorded that way too. But in my desire to view history as it was rather than what it is today, I do view certain players with more distinction than most people. If H.O.T-Forever regrets the timing of his prime, I'm sure guys like St.Eagle, SsamJang, ChRh, TheBOy, etc also do. ^_^
The fact that Bisu is not in the same level on the list doesn't detract from his greatness in my opinion. There is no other Protoss player who has achieved the same level of success as him. That fact alone puts him in a special league of his own. I do say this with plenty of Protoss bias.
From the guys who were active in 1999, BoxeR was the only player to have relevance as a top player when professional Brood War was its peak in terms of viewership circa 2005. I personally think that people have a better idea of how BoxeR fared during the earliest years of his career than any other player who were active at the time. People who were doing better than BoxeR before his meteoric rise to success in 2001 are somewhat ignored. Due to the poor quality of records regarding the plethora of tournaments the Korean scene had before Ongamenet secured itself as the top dog, and the fact that the vast majority of players who were the dominant forces back then rapidly deteriorated in terms of results after a couple of years, made it difficult to judge them as players.
However, the accusation of a player for not being good enough in another era is something that can apply to some of the most fondly remembered players in history. SSamJang may have been only relevant as a top player in 1999, but ignoring the best year of someone's career entirely can be devastating to even the greatest players in history. What is BoxeR's legacy without his performances in 2001, or Flash without his results in 2010? H.O.T-Forever was relevant as a player for more than four years, for how long did sAviOr remain a top player? Was he all that great in 2008, for example? How crippling would it be if someone were to ignore his mesmerizing performances in the 2006 season, as well as attempting to judge his relevance as a player by judging him off his ProLeague performances in 2008/2009?
Modern day legends such as Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu are some of the greatest players in history, and are a force to be reckoned with no matter which metric you try to judge them by; absolute level of gaming ability, win rates, ELO peaks, total number of victories, total number of championships, or amount of prize money won (the list goes on). However, some of the metrics used to verify their greatness are heavily skewed in their favour,
Some of the metrics don't even make sense. What's the point of listing the greatest players by judging their ProLeague records, when you know for a fact someone like Really has about twice the number of ProLeague victories of all time legends like iloveoov, and sAviOr? I hate it when people try to compare players from different eras by looking into their ProLeague records.
I just wanted to turn the tables and make people realize how retarded it is to compare players with metrics that obviously heavily favour a certain side. By judging modern day players with a metric that heavily favours the older generation of legends, the greatest zerg (Jaedong) and protoss player (Bisu) in many people's eyes are no longer gods who tower over everybody else with their glorious ProLeague records. It doesn't mean much, but I needed to prove a point.
I think it YellOw is extremely underrated. He is not just the greatest never-to-win-it. I don't think it is fair to judge him as a meme. It would be like judging Bisu for his OGN StarLeague title count. Almost every player in history has an angle of attack, if making them look bad is your point of focus. This is the stuff YellOw trumps over Jaedong:
1) YellOw has won more individual leagues than Jaedong, even if Jaedong won way more open tournaments.
2) If you pretend that the other races didn't exist, and just judge them by the times they were the highest, or second highest placing zerg player in an OGN StarLeague, or KPGA Tournament/MSL, YellOw actually ranks higher than Jaedong.
Total number of times YellOw was the highest placing zerg: 9
Total number of times YellOw was the second highest placing zerg: 4
Total number of times Jaedong was the highest placing zerg: 9
Total number of times Jaedong was the second highest placing zerg: 1.5 (joint-second along with Hydra in ABCMart MSL)
When YellOw was at his peak, he took part in seven OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournaments starting from Coca-Cola OGN StarLeague, and ending with SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague. Within this time-frame, YellOw was the best performing zerg player for six of those tournaments. No other player in history apart from Flash in 2010 can boast such a record. YellOw was what Reach, and NaDa was for the zerg race, a familiar face who was always there to carry the flag, even if the end result would be people making a mockery of his resilience.
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United States33122 Posts
Brood War's arbitrary canon of "major" tournaments is such an odd issue. There's definitely an element of the the winner's writing history, as we've seen w/ OGN recently abusing their status as the sole-survivor of the cable TV era. At the same time, a lot of it is just formed through some intangible community consensus. It's similar to how the bonjwas were 'selected' back in 2007-2008—no one actually called an official counsel or held a vote, but the community ended up in a place where nearly everyone agreed that Boxer-Nada-iloveoov-Savior were the four bonjwas.
I feel like the most intriguing thing is how complicit the players themselves have been. Korean pros have generally been very passive in narrative-making, usually just accepting what the fans and media portray without complaint. Yet, I feel like they had the power to legitimize tournaments if they had been vocal about it. For example, the KT-KTF Premier League was every bit as competitive and well-funded as the OSL/MSL at the time, but it doesn't make the "major" cut for whatever reason.
Maybe the tools (social media, etc) just didn't exist back in the day for players to control the narrative of competitive StarCraft. I do feel, in the present, especially with the proliferation of streaming, it could be a chance for 'correction,' or at least a revision, of history. After all, it's the players who have the most incentive to go back and reclaim their own legacies.
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On August 20 2017 03:49 Waxangel wrote:Brood War's arbitrary canon of "major" tournaments is such an odd issue. There's definitely an element of the the winner's writing history, as we've seen w/ OGN recently abusing their status as the sole-survivor of the cable TV era. At the same time, a lot of it is just formed through some intangible community consensus. It's similar to how the bonjwas were 'selected' back in 2007-2008—no one actually called an official counsel or held a vote, but the community ended up in a place where nearly everyone agreed that Boxer-Nada-iloveoov-Savior were the four bonjwas. I feel like the most intriguing thing is how complicit the players themselves have been. Korean pros have generally been very passive in narrative-making, usually just accepting what the fans and media portray without complaint. Yet, I feel like they had the power to legitimize tournaments if they had been vocal about it. For example, the KT-KTF Premier League was every bit as competitive and well-funded as the OSL/MSL at the time, but it doesn't make the "major" cut for whatever reason. Maybe the tools (social media, etc) just didn't exist back in the day for players to control the narrative of competitive StarCraft. I do feel, in the present, especially with the proliferation of streaming, it could be a chance for 'correction,' or at least a revision, of history. After all, it's the players who have the most incentive to go back and reclaim their own legacies.
I personally don't know who to turn to. Everyone has their own agendas. Everybody is pushing for their own narrative. It doesn't matter who it is, amidst the uncertainty of it all, it is usually the biggest voices that gets heard, and the creation of popular wisdoms usually involves some sort of transformation of the reality into an easily digestible narrative. It doesn't matter if you are one of the casters, coaches, players, journalists, content creators, or one of the casual fans. We all create incorrect versions of realities in our minds to suit our cause.
I can't listen to Sea trying to rate himself or other legendary players without raging at his logical fallacies, it's frustrating to witness professional players having such a wealth of inside information, but using that insight to come up with the weirdest conclusions. Casters tend to like players with interesting story-lines and marketable traits rather than viewing players as competitors.
I have my own biases, which I'm mostly fine with, but they could be totally retarded for somebody else. I would prefer to be closing in on the truth the more I think about professional Brood War, but the retarded way the human brain works would make me blissfully ignorant should I be drifting further away from it.
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United States33122 Posts
Still, even if there's a fringe example like Sea who's clearly making unreasonable claims, I prefer this world where players have the tools and desire to be a more active voice in writing the story of STarCraft.
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Japan11285 Posts
Curious as to what Sea has stated on his stream. Also is it a sure thing that he said it seriously or just to entertain his viewers?
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On August 20 2017 13:12 c3rberUs wrote:
Curious as to what Sea has stated on his stream. Also is it a sure thing that he said it seriously or just to entertain his viewers?
I just mentioned Sea as an example. Professional players are just as prone to fallacies in logic like the rest of us.
JangBi: "I only have two gamers that I respect. That's Jaedong and Bisu."
JangBi had a history of performing poorly versus these two even during his upswings. Flash proceeds to spazz out after hearing this and makes stupid remarks about how he'll chase JangBi out of the streaming business after he got really drunk.
Sea has a history of making stupid comments without checking what he is saying. I don't want to turn this into a hate thread for Sea (the list of dumb comments will be too long), plus I really don't care whether he is saying for showmanship, or if he really is that clueless. Literally everybody has their biases, and I don't take the words of professional gamers as the gospel truth.
Reach thinks GARIMTO is the greatest protoss of all time. By.Baby thinks Leta ranks above XellOs in his all time terran list. Sea thinks iloveoov had XellOs' number throughout his entire career (when GoRush, a former teammate of XellOs, said it wasn't so, Sea proceeded to say there's no way that happened because he was an iloveoov fanboy and watched all his games). ClouD thinks July is the greatest zerg of all time. GoRush said he rates iloveoov above NaDa in his all time ranking, and when asked for the reason why, he answered because it was harder to beat iloveoov, and he could predict NaDa's thoughts easier.
Professional gamers may have more insight, but their judgement is often clouded by ridiculous levels of personal biases. Whether it is ranking players from their own eras higher, rating overall careers of players by how hard it was to defeat them, only taking into account tournaments they themselves did well in, rating teammates highly due to their intimacy, or basing everything by their personal account of things without checking facts and figures. Professional players rarely spend time trying to objectively state how things were back then, and go more on impressions and feelings.
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United States33122 Posts
On August 20 2017 15:31 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 13:12 c3rberUs wrote:
Curious as to what Sea has stated on his stream. Also is it a sure thing that he said it seriously or just to entertain his viewers? Reach thinks GARIMTO is the greatest protoss of all time. By.Baby thinks Leta ranks above XellOs in his all time terran list. Sea thinks iloveoov had XellOs' number throughout his entire career (when GoRush, a former teammate of XellOs, said it wasn't so, Sea proceeded to say there's no way that happened because he was an iloveoov fanboy and watched all his games). ClouD thinks July is the greatest zerg of all time. GoRush said he rates iloveoov above NaDa in his all time ranking, and when asked for the reason why, he answered because it was harder to beat iloveoov, and he could predict NaDa's thoughts easier.
I don't find any of this to be unreasonable. In fact, I find it to be very insightful.
It's exactly the kind of perspective we need, so we can get away from only counting tournament wins (which we weight completely arbitrarily, as we laid out before). I don't see how you're questioning their objectivity, insomuch as you are implying that you, me, or any of the fans in the world are more objective than the pros.
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On August 21 2017 06:03 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 15:31 Letmelose wrote:On August 20 2017 13:12 c3rberUs wrote:
Curious as to what Sea has stated on his stream. Also is it a sure thing that he said it seriously or just to entertain his viewers? Reach thinks GARIMTO is the greatest protoss of all time. By.Baby thinks Leta ranks above XellOs in his all time terran list. Sea thinks iloveoov had XellOs' number throughout his entire career (when GoRush, a former teammate of XellOs, said it wasn't so, Sea proceeded to say there's no way that happened because he was an iloveoov fanboy and watched all his games). ClouD thinks July is the greatest zerg of all time. GoRush said he rates iloveoov above NaDa in his all time ranking, and when asked for the reason why, he answered because it was harder to beat iloveoov, and he could predict NaDa's thoughts easier. I don't find any of this to be unreasonable. In fact, I find it to be very insightful. It's exactly the kind of perspective we need, so we can get away from only counting tournament wins (which we weight completely arbitrarily, as we laid out before). I don't see how you're questioning their objectivity, insomuch as you are implying that you, me, or any of the fans in the world are more objective than the pros.
Here's what I think. A person can have a talent for the game. That talent, under the right circumstances, can be transformed into proficiency at the game. Proficiency at the game does not always correlate to success as a competitive gamer.
The only thing a fan of the game can judge is a player's results as a competitive gamer. That's where objectivity comes in. The professional Brood War scene has parallels to one-versus-one games like tennis, where trophy count is indeed a valuable metric of judging a player's success as a competitor. This is not like football where overall trophy count relies a lot on having the right teammates, unless you are specifically focusing on team leagues such as the ProLeague.
Sea doesn't know the simplest things like how many tournaments iloveoov won throughout his career, or his head-to-head match-up against famous rivals such as XellOs. What he does have, are insights into his talent and proficiency at the game that mere spectators of the competitive scene struggle to have. I have absolutely zero qualms about ex-professional players sharing their insight with us.
However, the problem arises when most of these questions were asked within the context of overall performance in the competitive scene, and relative level of skill compared to others.
1) Reach thinks GARIMTO was the best because he looked up to him as a fellow teammate when he was just starting out as a professional. I'm sure it was a combination of talent, skill, and success GARIMTO had at the game that made such an impression on Reach at the time, although he wasn't too specific about the details.
What if Reach made his debut in another era? What if Reach was in a different team? Does he know the exact talent, and skill level of everybody who was not in his team during the time frame he was refering to? This is subjective analysis of somebody from personal experience.
2) It was obvious that Leta made a strong impression on By.Baby, as he cited his unmatched mastery of wraiths, and great performances in the ProLeague as his reasons for picking Leta as one of the top five greatest terran players of all time (excluding BoxeR, who he said could not be assessed). It is also a subjective view on a fellow contemporary player, that could have changed if By.Baby was more active during the earlier eras.
3) Sea is a fan of illoveoov. What upcoming terran during that era wouldn't have been? iloveoov made the game so much easier for the following generations of terran players, while dominating the scene when you could display dominance in both individual and team leagues. That's a given. The fact that Sea cited multiple incorrect facts about iloveoov's competitive career makes me think that his choice was more influenced by his initial impressions rather than a thoughtful analysis into illoveoov's results compared to NaDa's.
4) ClouD's greatest success as a gamer came in 2004, when he was killing it the ProLeague. Conveniently enough, he goes on to say that what July achieved, and did during that particular time frame was more impressive than any other zergs in history. Do you think he would have said the same if July did something just as impressive in 1999, or 2011?
5) GoRush said iloveoov was a greater player than NaDa in terms of achievements and relative level of skill compared to others. He then cited his own head-to-head experiences versus them as the reason why. Nobody was asking him about who was more difficult to play against on a personal level. A quick search on TLPD would answer that question, and GoRush added his insight for the reasons.
I believe the insight ex-professionals give in terms of their impressions on a player's talent, or proficiency at the game in invaluable. I also tend to notice that ex-professionals don't always differentiate a player's gift for the game, or impact on the scene, and the actual results they had as competitive gamers.
Results are hard to weigh objectively. Every era has different set of circumstances. However, they are not totally arbitary if you actually put the effort in to try and make sense of the results of these ex-professionals. We don't need to rely on the words of ex-professionals who don't even know the trophy count of their favourite heroes properly, for this kind of task. Results may not be the net worth of the legacy ex-professionals left behind, but we can try to be as objective as possible when we try to look into their results, and I believe that is something ex-professionals rarely do, so I don't think I need their help in this particular department.
Results are not only judged by trophy count. I always try to judge a player's achievements as professional gamers by various methods, but I never pretend that a single metric such as overall trophy count, overall win percentage, or overall victory count can answer how these players did as competitors. Ex-professionals have amazing insight into more intangible measurements such as the talent, or gaming ability that a particular gamer had, and I am thankful that so many streamers are sharing their interesting anecdotes, but it does not always help me in finding out the context of the achievements these players had because their experiences are so subjective.
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yellow won the most important prize of all: being gangster
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On August 06 2006 23:14 Rekrul wrote:
I once witnessed Yellow lose a huge pot in the casino.
Son of a bitch didn't move a muscle. Not a single fucking flinch. He didn't care at all.
Mark of a mother fucking champion.
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On August 21 2017 15:22 CHEONSOYUN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2006 23:14 Rekrul wrote:
I once witnessed Yellow lose a huge pot in the casino.
Son of a bitch didn't move a muscle. Not a single fucking flinch. He didn't care at all.
Mark of a mother fucking champion.
While we are on the topic on quotes about the epic nature of YellOw.
Here's a clip of July and Brood War casters talking about YellOw. I posted it before, but I think it's worth mentioning it here one more time.
+ Show Spoiler +
July: YellOw is still the greatest zerg in my heart.
Casters: Yes, he was great.
July: There has never been a zerg as good as him
Casters: It's such a tragedy that he never won a championship.
July: He was truly amazing. Like, Jaedong may be the best now, but YellOw was several times more outstanding during his prime.
Casters: Compared to his contemporaries, you mean.
July: He did unthinkable plays even for current day standards. The stuff he did like leaving behind a couple of lurkers in the path of enemy infantry, after forcing them to retreat with a backstab, or morphing lurkers outside of enemy vision to strike from unexpected angles. sAviOr was the only one who came close.
YellOw created a whole generation of zerg gamers who literally worshipped the ground he walked on. GoRush tried to copy everything YellOw did, even hotkeying his spawning pool just like YellOw. July is a well known fan of YellOw, as you can see in the clip above. YellOw[ArnC] created his ID due to his admiration for YellOw, and just like his hero, was an artist versus the terran race.
Ver introduced the genius of sAviOr to the English speaking audience with a exquisite piece about his troop movement. I think it's tragic that we came to be more familiar with the meme surrounding YellOw, when he was doing the kind of stuff sAviOr was lauded for, years before sAviOr made YellOw proud with the way he maneuvered his troops. Only, there was a scarcity of English articles that captured the essence of YellOw quite like how Ver captured sAviOr's.
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is awesome32269 Posts
On August 21 2017 10:12 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2017 06:03 Waxangel wrote:On August 20 2017 15:31 Letmelose wrote:On August 20 2017 13:12 c3rberUs wrote:
Curious as to what Sea has stated on his stream. Also is it a sure thing that he said it seriously or just to entertain his viewers? Reach thinks GARIMTO is the greatest protoss of all time. By.Baby thinks Leta ranks above XellOs in his all time terran list. Sea thinks iloveoov had XellOs' number throughout his entire career (when GoRush, a former teammate of XellOs, said it wasn't so, Sea proceeded to say there's no way that happened because he was an iloveoov fanboy and watched all his games). ClouD thinks July is the greatest zerg of all time. GoRush said he rates iloveoov above NaDa in his all time ranking, and when asked for the reason why, he answered because it was harder to beat iloveoov, and he could predict NaDa's thoughts easier. I don't find any of this to be unreasonable. In fact, I find it to be very insightful. It's exactly the kind of perspective we need, so we can get away from only counting tournament wins (which we weight completely arbitrarily, as we laid out before). I don't see how you're questioning their objectivity, insomuch as you are implying that you, me, or any of the fans in the world are more objective than the pros. Here's what I think. A person can have a talent for the game. That talent, under the right circumstances, can be transformed into proficiency at the game. Proficiency at the game does not always correlate to success as a competitive gamer. The only thing a fan of the game can judge is a player's results as a competitive gamer. That's where objectivity comes in. The professional Brood War scene has parallels to one-versus-one games like tennis, where trophy count is indeed a valuable metric of judging a player's success as a competitor. This is not like football where overall trophy count relies a lot on having the right teammates, unless you are specifically focusing on team leagues such as the ProLeague. Sea doesn't know the simplest things like how many tournaments iloveoov won throughout his career, or his head-to-head match-up against famous rivals such as XellOs. What he does have, are insights into his talent and proficiency at the game that mere spectators of the competitive scene struggle to have. I have absolutely zero qualms about ex-professional players sharing their insight with us. However, the problem arises when most of these questions were asked within the context of overall performance in the competitive scene, and relative level of skill compared to others. 1) Reach thinks GARIMTO was the best because he looked up to him as a fellow teammate when he was just starting out as a professional. I'm sure it was a combination of talent, skill, and success GARIMTO had at the game that made such an impression on Reach at the time, although he wasn't too specific about the details. What if Reach made his debut in another era? What if Reach was in a different team? Does he know the exact talent, and skill level of everybody who was not in his team during the time frame he was refering to? This is subjective analysis of somebody from personal experience. 2) It was obvious that Leta made a strong impression on By.Baby, as he cited his unmatched mastery of wraiths, and great performances in the ProLeague as his reasons for picking Leta as one of the top five greatest terran players of all time (excluding BoxeR, who he said could not be assessed). It is also a subjective view on a fellow contemporary player, that could have changed if By.Baby was more active during the earlier eras. 3) Sea is a fan of illoveoov. What upcoming terran during that era wouldn't have been? iloveoov made the game so much easier for the following generations of terran players, while dominating the scene when you could display dominance in both individual and team leagues. That's a given. The fact that Sea cited multiple incorrect facts about iloveoov's competitive career makes me think that his choice was more influenced by his initial impressions rather than a thoughtful analysis into illoveoov's results compared to NaDa's. 4) ClouD's greatest success as a gamer came in 2004, when he was killing it the ProLeague. Conveniently enough, he goes on to say that what July achieved, and did during that particular time frame was more impressive than any other zergs in history. Do you think he would have said the same if July did something just as impressive in 1999, or 2011? 5) GoRush said iloveoov was a greater player than NaDa in terms of achievements and relative level of skill compared to others. He then cited his own head-to-head experiences versus them as the reason why. Nobody was asking him about who was more difficult to play against on a personal level. A quick search on TLPD would answer that question, and GoRush added his insight for the reasons. I believe the insight ex-professionals give in terms of their impressions on a player's talent, or proficiency at the game in invaluable. I also tend to notice that ex-professionals don't always differentiate a player's gift for the game, or impact on the scene, and the actual results they had as competitive gamers. Results are hard to weigh objectively. Every era has different set of circumstances. However, they are not totally arbitary if you actually put the effort in to try and make sense of the results of these ex-professionals. We don't need to rely on the words of ex-professionals who don't even know the trophy count of their favourite heroes properly, for this kind of task. Results may not be the net worth of the legacy ex-professionals left behind, but we can try to be as objective as possible when we try to look into their results, and I believe that is something ex-professionals rarely do, so I don't think I need their help in this particular department. Results are not only judged by trophy count. I always try to judge a player's achievements as professional gamers by various methods, but I never pretend that a single metric such as overall trophy count, overall win percentage, or overall victory count can answer how these players did as competitors. Ex-professionals have amazing insight into more intangible measurements such as the talent, or gaming ability that a particular gamer had, and I am thankful that so many streamers are sharing their interesting anecdotes, but it does not always help me in finding out the context of the achievements these players had because their experiences are so subjective.
This is so spot on.
When all I ate and drank was BW, I woke up daily and first thing I did was download BW replays off yGclan or whatever site was popular at the time. I remember being so hype if I found a new big batch of unreleased replays somewhere.
Of course some of these replays were tagged, and some were not. Many random koreans I didn't know, but would eventually see on TV. I pretty much got lured into the same fallacies that you mentioned. I got so much respect over several months for practice partners (Jy for CJ for example) or one match-up wonders... and other people did too. I remember many gotcrazy for In_Dove at the time for his permanently high APM and his particularly clean SK Terran. Pretty obvious now none of them got close to achieving anything.
I remember also having several arguments on IRC about who's better than who at the time, when we already had TLPD to track results, but even then people fall into the same traps... Like: proleague wins counting, when someone is an ace, someone isn't. Someone didn't get air time, certain players having the best whatever race partners to get better training, etc. There's of course a luck factor cause some players had the best training conditions, best coaches... But even then there's people beding every rule to make a breakthrough (Anytime?).
Just remember the heated arguments over TL's power ranking and you will see it's just impossible to make a clear case for who is the best 
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In_Dove 
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On August 22 2017 02:35 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2017 10:12 Letmelose wrote:On August 21 2017 06:03 Waxangel wrote:On August 20 2017 15:31 Letmelose wrote:On August 20 2017 13:12 c3rberUs wrote:
Curious as to what Sea has stated on his stream. Also is it a sure thing that he said it seriously or just to entertain his viewers? Reach thinks GARIMTO is the greatest protoss of all time. By.Baby thinks Leta ranks above XellOs in his all time terran list. Sea thinks iloveoov had XellOs' number throughout his entire career (when GoRush, a former teammate of XellOs, said it wasn't so, Sea proceeded to say there's no way that happened because he was an iloveoov fanboy and watched all his games). ClouD thinks July is the greatest zerg of all time. GoRush said he rates iloveoov above NaDa in his all time ranking, and when asked for the reason why, he answered because it was harder to beat iloveoov, and he could predict NaDa's thoughts easier. I don't find any of this to be unreasonable. In fact, I find it to be very insightful. It's exactly the kind of perspective we need, so we can get away from only counting tournament wins (which we weight completely arbitrarily, as we laid out before). I don't see how you're questioning their objectivity, insomuch as you are implying that you, me, or any of the fans in the world are more objective than the pros. Here's what I think. A person can have a talent for the game. That talent, under the right circumstances, can be transformed into proficiency at the game. Proficiency at the game does not always correlate to success as a competitive gamer. The only thing a fan of the game can judge is a player's results as a competitive gamer. That's where objectivity comes in. The professional Brood War scene has parallels to one-versus-one games like tennis, where trophy count is indeed a valuable metric of judging a player's success as a competitor. This is not like football where overall trophy count relies a lot on having the right teammates, unless you are specifically focusing on team leagues such as the ProLeague. Sea doesn't know the simplest things like how many tournaments iloveoov won throughout his career, or his head-to-head match-up against famous rivals such as XellOs. What he does have, are insights into his talent and proficiency at the game that mere spectators of the competitive scene struggle to have. I have absolutely zero qualms about ex-professional players sharing their insight with us. However, the problem arises when most of these questions were asked within the context of overall performance in the competitive scene, and relative level of skill compared to others. 1) Reach thinks GARIMTO was the best because he looked up to him as a fellow teammate when he was just starting out as a professional. I'm sure it was a combination of talent, skill, and success GARIMTO had at the game that made such an impression on Reach at the time, although he wasn't too specific about the details. What if Reach made his debut in another era? What if Reach was in a different team? Does he know the exact talent, and skill level of everybody who was not in his team during the time frame he was refering to? This is subjective analysis of somebody from personal experience. 2) It was obvious that Leta made a strong impression on By.Baby, as he cited his unmatched mastery of wraiths, and great performances in the ProLeague as his reasons for picking Leta as one of the top five greatest terran players of all time (excluding BoxeR, who he said could not be assessed). It is also a subjective view on a fellow contemporary player, that could have changed if By.Baby was more active during the earlier eras. 3) Sea is a fan of illoveoov. What upcoming terran during that era wouldn't have been? iloveoov made the game so much easier for the following generations of terran players, while dominating the scene when you could display dominance in both individual and team leagues. That's a given. The fact that Sea cited multiple incorrect facts about iloveoov's competitive career makes me think that his choice was more influenced by his initial impressions rather than a thoughtful analysis into illoveoov's results compared to NaDa's. 4) ClouD's greatest success as a gamer came in 2004, when he was killing it the ProLeague. Conveniently enough, he goes on to say that what July achieved, and did during that particular time frame was more impressive than any other zergs in history. Do you think he would have said the same if July did something just as impressive in 1999, or 2011? 5) GoRush said iloveoov was a greater player than NaDa in terms of achievements and relative level of skill compared to others. He then cited his own head-to-head experiences versus them as the reason why. Nobody was asking him about who was more difficult to play against on a personal level. A quick search on TLPD would answer that question, and GoRush added his insight for the reasons. I believe the insight ex-professionals give in terms of their impressions on a player's talent, or proficiency at the game in invaluable. I also tend to notice that ex-professionals don't always differentiate a player's gift for the game, or impact on the scene, and the actual results they had as competitive gamers. Results are hard to weigh objectively. Every era has different set of circumstances. However, they are not totally arbitary if you actually put the effort in to try and make sense of the results of these ex-professionals. We don't need to rely on the words of ex-professionals who don't even know the trophy count of their favourite heroes properly, for this kind of task. Results may not be the net worth of the legacy ex-professionals left behind, but we can try to be as objective as possible when we try to look into their results, and I believe that is something ex-professionals rarely do, so I don't think I need their help in this particular department. Results are not only judged by trophy count. I always try to judge a player's achievements as professional gamers by various methods, but I never pretend that a single metric such as overall trophy count, overall win percentage, or overall victory count can answer how these players did as competitors. Ex-professionals have amazing insight into more intangible measurements such as the talent, or gaming ability that a particular gamer had, and I am thankful that so many streamers are sharing their interesting anecdotes, but it does not always help me in finding out the context of the achievements these players had because their experiences are so subjective. This is so spot on. When all I ate and drank was BW, I woke up daily and first thing I did was download BW replays off yGclan or whatever site was popular at the time. I remember being so hype if I found a new big batch of unreleased replays somewhere. Of course some of these replays were tagged, and some were not. Many random koreans I didn't know, but would eventually see on TV. I pretty much got lured into the same fallacies that you mentioned. I got so much respect over several months for practice partners (Jy for CJ for example) or one match-up wonders... and other people did too. I remember many gotcrazy for In_Dove at the time for his permanently high APM and his particularly clean SK Terran. Pretty obvious now none of them got close to achieving anything. I remember also having several arguments on IRC about who's better than who at the time, when we already had TLPD to track results, but even then people fall into the same traps... Like: proleague wins counting, when someone is an ace, someone isn't. Someone didn't get air time, certain players having the best whatever race partners to get better training, etc. There's of course a luck factor cause some players had the best training conditions, best coaches... But even then there's people beding every rule to make a breakthrough (Anytime?). Just remember the heated arguments over TL's power ranking and you will see it's just impossible to make a clear case for who is the best
I have my own speculations about who would be the best under certain circumstances, and who might be the best under the current situation, but I mostly stick with the results when I'm trying to convince someone. I go under the assumption that we are not judging players by their marketability, gaming ability within certain confines, ability to create memorable moments for their fans, and having an impact on the scene in whatever sense people deem meaningful. I always assume that we are judging players as competitive gamers, by which the results are the end objective. As far as results go, it doesn't matter if a player have glorious skills and have legions of fans, if some unpopular, unskilled guy managed to outperform him.
Having the best results doesn't capture the entire essence of a person, or even their worth as a gamer, however, it does capture their worth as a competitive gamer, and that was what professional Brood War was ultimately about (unless you happen to be one of the fan girls that had an orgasm whenever Hwasin's face shows up on screen without even knowing which race he plays).
After we establish a consensus on how to interpret the results of more than a decade's worth of professional Brood War aired on television (which is in itself an endless debate), then we can go more in depth about more intangible qualities like the talent level, gaming abilities, and overall influence on the scene each player had. The level of knowledge and insight to be able to fairly assess those qualities would have to be astronomical, and I sometimes get the feeling some people relish under the uncertainty of it all to make case for their person favourites, with vague, hard-to-measure concepts like talent, potential, and impact on the scene, as if we were trying to count the midi-chlorian count of these players in a fan fiction setting.
Power Rankings were as subjective as they get, and were basically a list of players that caught the eye of whoever was writing those rankings at the time, with some statistics, or memorable moments to justify the standings. KeSPA rankings may have had huge flaws, however, had an algorithm for how KeSPA weighed the competitive scene at the time, and made no room for personal biases, or pardoning certain players due to their excellence if they happened to fuck up big time, or actively punishing lackluster players for abusing the obvious flaws in your algorithm.
Of course, it made for some hilarious moments like when they weighed WCG results out of proportion to how much prestige it had at the time, and random players like Ogogo would suddenly jolt up in the standings after his WCG 2003 triumph, but eventually KeSPA settled an algorithm that a very rough equilibrium with how the competitive scene worked at the time. I always prefer having a set rule before ranking the players, then working out the kinks if the end result is too out of whack, rather than having a list of your own liking made, then doing mental gymnastics to justify your end results. Human beings in general are jedi-knights at rationalizing a bunch of choices of their own liking to the bitter fucking end.
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Here's an algorithm that I've been toying around with some time (in various forms),
1) Let's say a player is the last man standing out of his race of choice (only protoss in the round of eight, for example), he is rewarded 100 points. If people share the same standing, the points will be shared according to their number (two highest placing terran players, both finishing at the round of eight, will both get 50 points, for example).
2) With each round the player progresses as the sole member of his race, a hundred points will be added. This is to ensure that there is some level of differentiation between between the last player standing of a certain race in the round of sixteen, and actually going all the way to the championship title as the sole member of a race.
3) Only OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL will be counted, as they are the only two tournaments in history to have at least reasonable coverage over all time frames. Players who were doing well before 2002, or after 2010 will be somewhat screwed over by the somewhat shorter lifespan that KPGA Tournament/MSL had.
This should be a decent indicator of how further ahead these players were compared to their contemporary rivals of their own race. Players who only did well when the entire race as a whole flourished will not be rated that highly, players who were often the best out of their race, but could not deliver the goods once the odds were turned against them will also not be rewarded highly under this system. Only players who were clearly performing better than the second best performing player of his race, as well as being able to battle against all odds will be rewarded highly here.
This will probably best define players who were the heroes of their race, the players who could deliver the results, or at least show a glimmer of hope in the darkest of times for their race.
Flash: 2400 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only terran in the round of four)
2) EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only terran player in the round of eight)
3) EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: 400 points (progressed three rounds after being the only terran in the round of eight)
4) NATE MSL: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only terran in the round of four)
5) Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the round of four)
6) Hana Daetoo MSL: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only terran in the round of four)
7) Big File MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
8) Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2: 300 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the round of four)
9) ABCMart MSL: 300 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the round of four)
Jaedong: 2000 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only zerg in the round of four)
2) GomTV MSL S4: 400 points (progressed three rounds after being the only zerg in the round of eight)
3) Arena MSL: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only zerg in the round of eight)
4) Batoo OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg in the finals)
5) Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only zerg champion)
6) NATE MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg in the finals)
7) Hana Daetoo MSL: 100 points (only zerg player in the finals)
8) Big File MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg in the round of four)
9) Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg in the round of four)
NaDa: 1933 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) 2nd KPGA: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only terran in the round of four)
2) 3rd KPGA: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
3) 4th KPGA: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
4) Panasonic OGN StarLeague: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only terran in the round of four)
5) Stout MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the round of four)
6) YATGK MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
7) IOPS OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
8) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
9) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 100 points (only terran player in the finals)
10) Lost Saga MSL: 33 points (one of the three terran players in the round of eight)
Reach: 1425 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) 3rd KPGA Tournament: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss in the round of four)
2) SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: 400 points (progressed three rounds after being the only protoss player in the round of eight)
3) Gillette OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss in the round of four)
4) EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss in the round of eight)
5) IOPS OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only protoss player in the round of sixteen)
6) EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only protoss player in the round of eight)
7) UZOO MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss in the round of four)
8) CYON MSL: 25 points (one of the two protoss players in the round of eight, although he did reach the round of six, I will not count that round since other leagues did not always have separate rounds to differentiate these placings)
July: 1400 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) Gillette OGN StarLeague: 400 points (progressed three rounds after being the only zerg player in the round of eight)
2) SPRIS MSL: 100 points (only zerg player in the round of eight)
3) IOPS OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only zerg in the finals)
4) EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg player in the finals)
5) So1 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only zerg player in the round of eight)
6) Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only zerg player in the round of eight)
7) EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg player in the finals)
iloveoov: 1250 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) TG Sambo MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
2) Hanafos CEN Game MSL: 100 points (only terran champion)
3) Gillette OGN StarLeague: 50 points (one of the two terran players in the round of four, although he did get third place, other leagues did not always have a third place decider, so I will only reward 50 points to make things even across the board)
4) SPRIS MSL: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only terran in the round of four)
5) EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only terran champion)
6) UZOO MSL: 100 points (only terran player in the round of four)
7) CYON MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the round of eight)
8) Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
YellOw: 1250 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) Coca-Cola OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only zerg player in the finals)
2) SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg in the round of four)
3) 1st KPGA Tournament: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only zerg in the round of eight)
4) 2nd KPGA Tournament: 100 points (only zerg player in the finals)
5) 3rd KPGA Tournament: 50 points (only zerg player in the six player play-off rounds, but if you do a list of players with the highest ELO out of the eliminated ten players, H.O.T-Forever makes it into the final eight)
6) SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only zerg player in the round of four)
7) Olympus OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only zerg player in the finals)
8) TG Sambo MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg in the round of four)
9) EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only zerg player in the round of four)
sAviOr: 1200 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) UZOO MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg in the finals)
2) Pringles MSL S1: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only zerg player in the round of four)
3) Pringles MSL S2: 100 points (only zerg champion)
4) Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only zerg player in the round of four)
5) GomTV MSL S1: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only zerg player in the round of four)
6) GomTV MSL S3: 100 points (only zerg player in the round of four)
FanTaSy: 1100 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) Incruit OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran player in the round of four)
2) Batoo OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran player in the round of four)
3) Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only terran player in the round of four)
4) Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only terran player in the round of four)
5) Jin Air OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran player in the round of four)
6) TVing OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only terran player in the finals)
BoxeR: 1000 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) HanbitSoft OGN StarLeague: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only terran player in the round of four)
2) Coca-Cola OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
3) SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only terran player in the finals)
4) 1st KPGA Tournament: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only terran in the finals)
5) SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only terran player in the finals)
6) So1 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only terran player in the finals)
Nal_rA: 858 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) Stout MSL: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss in the finals)
2) TG Sambo MSL: 25 points (one of the four protoss players in the round of sixteen, although he was the only one to progress to the round of twelve, I will not count that since I did not account for the top twelve for every single league)
3) NHN Hangame OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only protoss champion)
4) Hanafos CEN Game MSL: 300 points (progressed two rounds after being the only protoss player in the round of sixteen)
5) Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: 33 points (one of the three protoss players in the round of sixteen)
6) Pringles MSL S1: 100 points (only protoss player in the finals)
7) Pringles MSL S2: 100 points (only protoss player in the round of four)
Bisu: 833 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) GomTV MSL S1: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss in the finals)
2) GomTV MSL S2: 100 points (only protoss champion)
3) GomTV MSL S3: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss player in the round of four)
4) Clubday MSL: 100 points (only protoss champion)
5) Batoo OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only protoss player in the round of four)
6) Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 33 points (one of the three protoss players in the round of sixteen)
7) Avalon MSL: 100 points (only protoss player in the round of eight)
JangBi: 800 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) Lost Saga MSL: 100 points (only protoss in the finals)
2) Jin Air OGN StarLeague: 400 points (progressed three rounds after being the only protoss player in the round of eight)
3) TVing OGN StarLeague: 300 points (progressed three rounds after being the only protoss player in the round of four)
Stork: 750 points
+ Show Spoiler +1) Daum OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only protoss player in the round of four)
2) EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 100 points (only protoss player in the finals)
3) Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeauge: 100 points (only protoss player in the finals)
4) Incruit OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss in the finals)
5) Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2: 50 points (one of the two protoss players in the round of four)
6) Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague: 200 points (progressed a round after being the only protoss in the round of four)
Although YellOw may not have won as much as sAviOr did, for example, it could be argued that he was a more heroic figure for the zerg race, having nine instances of having zero zerg player be above him in the overall standings, a number that hasn't been defeated in the entire history of the game except by NaDa. Even if all of YellOw's heroics of representing the zerg race has ended in heart-break, I think this particular system of giving points (I'm not trying to rate players by this one metric, it's just one way of looking into the results) explains why so many old school zerg players looked up to YellOw.
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There has been a similar attempt to rank players just by their placements within their own race, but without my attempts to further reward players for advancing past certain brackets after they became the sole member of their own race.
https://pgr21.com/pb/pb.php?id=free2&no=44009&divpage=11&sn=on&keyword=信主
This is a post on PGR21 (a Korean site) from 2011 that ranks players by the following metric:
1) 48 points are rewarded if you are the highest placing player of your own race
2) 24 points are rewarded if you are the second highest placing player of your own race
3) 12 points are rewarded if you are the third highest placing player of your own race
4) Points are shared if there are multiple players with the same placing
5) This post accounted for the various format discrepancies in the individual leagues. In contrast, I chose not to differentiate, and if two players of the same race were in the round of four, for example, I chose to reward both with 50 points (100 points if there was only one player of a certain race) regardless of the existence of a third/fourth place decider.
The guy who came up with this system rewarded players with all 48 points to iloveoov beat Silent_Control for the 3rd place seed. I decided that any placement deciding rounds apart from the universally found round progression of round of sixteen into the round of eight, round of eight into the round of four, round of four into the finals, finals into championships will not be counted.
Due to the differences in the metrics, this system rewards players much more for being one of the best performing players of their own race over a long period of time, rather than being a stand-out hero for his race (which is what my metric attempts to measure).
With that being said, here are points accumulated by players by the above metric (accounting for the last ever three individual leagues that's not accounted in the original post):
1) NaDa: 624 points
2) Flash: 600 points
3) Reach: 556 points
4) YellOw: 538 points
5) BoxeR: 522 points
6) Jaedong: 520 points
7) Stork: 500 points
8) Nal_rA: 492 points
9) Bisu: 442 points
10) iloveoov: 420 points
11) sAviOr: 418 points
12) ChoJJa 414 points
13) July: 408 points
14) FanTaSy: 330 points
Whichever metric you go by, it is undeniable that YellOw's status compared to other top contemporary zerg players of his time, was just as outstanding as some of the greatest zerg players of all time from any era.
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We need Brood War veteran book deals to document all this shaky history.
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YellOw, unless I am mistaken, is unsurprisingly the player who had the most number of heart-breaks in the entire history of the game. This is the number of times a player was one game away from eliminating the eventual champion of a major individual league, perhaps changing the entire course of the tournament.
YellOw: 6 times
+ Show Spoiler +1) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of Coca-Cola OGN StarLeague.
2) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of four of SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague.
3) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of 2nd KPGA Tournament.
4) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of four of SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague.
5) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of Olympus OGN StarLeague.
6) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of four of Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1.
BoxeR: 5 times
+ Show Spoiler +1) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague.
2) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the 3rd 2003 Dual Tournament.
3) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague.
4) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of So1 OGN StarLeague.
5) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of sixteen of Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague.
FanTaSy: 4 times
+ Show Spoiler +1) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of Incruit OGN StarLeague.
2) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of Batoo OGN StarLeague.
3) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of four of Big File MSL.
4) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of Jin Air OGN StarLeague.
Flash: 3 times
+ Show Spoiler +1) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of four of Daum OGN StarLeague.
2) One game away from the eventual champion in the finals of Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1.
3) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of Jin Air OGN StarLeague.
Jaedong: 3 times
+ Show Spoiler +1) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague.
2) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of Big File MSL.
3) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of four of PDPop MSL.
Hwasin: 3 times
+ Show Spoiler +1) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of GomTV MSL S2.
2) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of Daum OGN StarLeague.
3) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of sixteen of Lost Saga MSL.
NaDa: 3 times
+ Show Spoiler +1) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of NHN HanGame OGN StarLeague.
2) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the finals of Hanafos CEN Game MSL.
3) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague.
XellOs: 3 times
+ Show Spoiler +1) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of Panasonic OGN StarLeague.
2) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of Gillette OGN StarLeague.
3) One game away from defeating the eventual champion in the round of eight of So1 OGN StarLeague.
It is hard enough trying to find players who were one game away from eliminating the eventual champion three times during their entire careers, and I went through a list of some of the most celebrated players in history. Players known for being part of the Kong lineage (players who were deemed to be worthy continuing the tormented legacy of YellOw) don't necessarily make an appearance here, although FanTaSy did YellOw proud in this respect.
So this is YellOw, the zerg with the most number of trophies outside of the major individual leagues that happens to be recorded on TLPD, the zerg who was the last man standing of his chosen race for the most number of times alongside Jaedong, the zerg who finished within the top two of his race of choice more than any other zerg in history, and the player with the most number of instances of nearly knocking out the eventual champion of a major tournament.
I'm hearing all these pretenders saying that they surpassed the tragic nature of YellOw's career by reaching more finals. To be a true Kong, you have to win absurd numbers of tournaments that are not well remembered in history, in greater number than almost any player in history, and you have to have the most number of second place finishes in major individual leagues (while being by far the best player of your race during that time frame). On top of that, you have to have numerous moments where you were one game away from changing that course of history by knocking out the eventual champion.
I came full circle and made this thread into explaining the meme about YellOw, when I initially wanted to show his more triumphant side of YellOw. The irony.
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Japan11285 Posts
I must be alone in thinking like this, but I honestly think that these various stats aren't in the slightest bit, ironic. YellOw's career is only tragic when compared to the sheer weight of his accomplishments. To have even that many opportunties to get to produce that many heartbreakers, a player must play at a phenomenal level for a long period of time. Although I'm sure, he would rather have all those runs end in glorious championships and fill his shelf with hardware.
I'm not really a fan of using title count when it comes to claiming who is the best of the best but all these close but no cigar stats just shows how strong of a player YellOw is and why he is so respected by his peers and his successors.
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YellOw's results in tournaments he participated in after 23rd December 2001 to 13th July 2003:
+ Show Spoiler +1st GameBugs StarCraft Supremacy Battle: 1st place
SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague: 4th place
2002 KPGA Winners Championship: 2nd place
2001 iTV Newcomers' League: 1st place
Korea Telecom King of Kings: 1st place
3rd iTV Ranking League: failed to qualify
1st KPGA Tournament: 2nd place
GhemTV StarLeague S1: failed to qualify
NATE OGN StarLeague: round of 16
2nd KPGA Tournament: 2nd place
4th iTV Ranking League: failed to qualify
WCG 2002 Korea: 1st place
3rd KPGA Tournament: 6th place
GhemTV StarLeague S2: failed to qualify
SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: 3rd place
WCG 2002: 2nd place
2002 GhemTV Gosu Invitational: 2nd place
4th KPGA Tournament: failed to qualify
KTF Bigi Four Kings Battle: 4th place (last place)
Panasonic OGN StarLeague: 3rd place
KTEC KPGA Winners Championship: 1st place
GhemTV StarLeague S3: failed to qualify
GhemTV FindAll Challenger Open Starleague: 1st place
5th iTV Ranking League: 1st place
Olympus OGN StarLeague: 2nd place
During this time frame YellOw did what the Korean community called a career grand slam, winning tournaments hosted by the four major broadcasting stations at the time, Ongamenet, Gembc (later changed to MBC Game), GhemTV, and iTV. Of course, it was also poking fun at the fact that except for iTV Ranking League, the tournaments YellOw won were all one-off invitational tournaments.
YellOw won seven tournaments, reaching the finals in twelve of them (out of a total of twenty-five tournaments). YellOw had a total record of 186-101 (64.81%) during this period.
The only guy who was able to be this consistently good, was NaDa, arguably the greatest player of all time, back when he was at the peak of his game. This is NaDa's results in the tournaments that YellOw participated in:
+ Show Spoiler +1st GameBugs StarCraft Supremacy Battle: did not participate
SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague: failed to qualify
2002 KPGA Winners Championship: did not participate
2001 iTV Newcomers' League: round of twelve
Korea Telecom King of Kings: did not participate
3rd iTV Ranking League: 1st
1st KPGA Tournament: round of eight
GhemTV StarLeague S1: 3rd
NATE OGN StarLeague: failed to qualify
2nd KPGA Tournament: 1st place
4th iTV Ranking League: 1st place
WCG 2002 Korea: round of eight
3rd KPGA Tournament: 1st place
GhemTV StarLeague S2: Round of eight
SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: forfeited due to conflicting scheules
WCG 2002: failed to qualify
2002 GhemTV Gosu Invitational: did not participate
4th KPGA Tournament: 1st place
KTF Bigi Four Kings Battle: 2nd place
Panasonic OGN StarLeague: 1st place
KTEC KPGA Winners Championship: 1st place
GhemTV StarLeague S3: failed to qualify
GhemTV FindAll Challenger Open Starleague: 2nd place
5th iTV Ranking League: Round of eight
Olympus OGN StarLeague: Round of sixteen
NaDa won six tournaments, reaching the finals in eight of them (out of a total of twenty-five tournaments). NaDa had a total record of 245-111 (68.82%) during this period.
Now onto the player who was actually the number one ranked KeSPA player for most of this time frame, and the player that actually won the highest prize money during this period (unless I am mistaken). BoxeR's results are as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +1st GameBugs StarCraft Supremacy Battle: did not participate
SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague: 2nd place
2002 KPGA Winners Championship: 6th
2001 iTV Newcomers' League: did not participate
Korea Telecom King of Kings: 5th
3rd iTV Ranking League: 2nd
1st KPGA Tournament: 1st
GhemTV StarLeague S1: did not participate
NATE OGN StarLeague: round of 16
2nd KPGA Tournament: round of eight
4th iTV Ranking League: round of eight
WCG 2002 Korea: bye
3rd KPGA Tournament: 3rd
GhemTV StarLeague S2: round of 16
SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: 2nd
WCG 2002: 1st
2002 GhemTV Gosu Invitational: 8th place (last place)
4th KPGA Tournament: 6th
KTF Bigi Four Kings Battle: 1st place
Panasonic OGN StarLeague: round of eight
KTEC KPGA Winners Championship: 2nd
GhemTV StarLeague S3: failed to qualify
GhemTV FindAll Challenger Open Starleague: round of 16
5th iTV Ranking League: round of eight
Olympus OGN StarLeague: 3rd place
BoxeR won three tournaments, reaching the finals in seven of them (out of a total of twenty-five tournaments). BoxeR had a total record of 138-107 (56.33%) during this period. His good results in tournaments with good prize pools, allowed him to earn more than the players above despite having a poorer level of consistency than the two players listed above.
During YellOw's absolute peak form as a competitive gamer, NaDa won the most amount of open tournaments, but forfeited (because back then tournaments had conflicting schedules), or got knocked out early in tournaments with great prize pools. BoxeR was no where near as consistent, but was more clutch in the tournaments with huge prize pools. YellOw was clutch in all the wrong tournaments (that would be later forgotten in history), earning more money than NaDa, but slightly less than BoxeR despite winning way more tournaments with more modest prize pools, and losing narrowly to the eventual winners in most the tournaments with huge prize pools. YellOw would be second in terms of overall prize money earned (after BoxeR), and overall number of games won (after NaDa), giving up the first place to different players in various criterias.
The history of YellOw would be playing second fiddle to the absolute best terran players of his time, whether it was BoxeR, NaDa, XellOs, or iloveoov on the more well remembered stages. There would always be another top tier terran in the waiting if one happened to falter. He would push these guys to their limits, and always found his revenge by defeating these players on less well remembered tournaments such as KTEC KPGA Winners Championship, GhemTV FindAll Challenger Open Starleague, Snickers All Stars, and KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League, often going all the way to win these forgotten championships after thwarting the very same players who narrowly denied him a major championship for so long. Then he would be congratulated for being the king of special events by the Korean community.
It wouldn't be so bad if YellOw was constantly whitewashed in the finals like Stork often was, or was not shining as brightly in other platforms of competition like FanTaSy (who was always doing better in the major individual leagues than in the ProLeague or WCG Korea, even if doing better often meant losing narrowly to the eventual champions). But the combination of being so close to defeating the best players in the major individual leagues, and being so godlike in special events against the very same players, was a recipe made by the devil himself.
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On August 23 2017 20:45 c3rberUs wrote:
I must be alone in thinking like this, but I honestly think that these various stats aren't in the slightest bit, ironic. YellOw's career is only tragic when compared to the sheer weight of his accomplishments. To have even that many opportunties to get to produce that many heartbreakers, a player must play at a phenomenal level for a long period of time. Although I'm sure, he would rather have all those runs end in glorious championships and fill his shelf with hardware.
I'm not really a fan of using title count when it comes to claiming who is the best of the best but all these close but no cigar stats just shows how strong of a player YellOw is and why he is so respected by his peers and his successors.
The time-frame that includes YellOw's peak form as a gamer is almost entire composed of individual leagues, so there's not much else to go apart from looking at his standings. The bulk of his peak is in 2002, and there's not much to be looked at if you consider the handful of games he played in the earliest team league games.
Even if you single out his performance in a team league setting:
KTF EVER Cup ProLeague (broadcasted on Ongamenet)
One-versus-one record: 4-4 (11th best record)
Two-versus-two record: 8-5 (3rd best record after Reach and H.O.T-Forever)
KeMongSa KPGA Tour Team League (broadcasted on MBC Game)
One-versus-one record: 4-3 (Joint 4th best record)
YellOw was doing just fine for himself in a team based setting (being a high calibre player both in terms of one-versus-one, and two-versus-two), and the sample size is way too small for any meaningful analysis. YellOw's absolute peak years was mid-2001 to mid-2003, so there's not much use in trying to figure out how good he was back then by looking into ProLeague statistics in 2005, for example.
The tournaments YellOw won wasn't that negligible in terms of prize pools, for example, winning tournaments such as KT Kings of Kings, or KTEC KPGA Winners Championship rewarded players the same prize money as finishing second place in the OGN StarLeague, and more prize money than finishing first in any of the KPGA Tournaments.
The question of asking who is the greatest, or best Brood War player (if it is not about absolute gaming level, but their overall worth as a player), is sometimes like asking someone who is the most beautiful woman in the world. Absolute beauty does play a significant part, but after that, everybody has a different criteria for the same title, and are influenced heavily by what the media, and the overall consensus dictates.
Win rates, prize money earned, overall record, number of times a player has pushed the eventual champion to the brink of elimination, and placement within their own race are just tools to diversify our understanding of the results of various players over the years. I don't think any of these metrics can be the definitive measurement of a player's worth by any means, however, the more you look into the results, the more you can get an overall feel of their general aptitude as competitive gamers, in my opinion. I don't think anyone will have enough knowledge or insight to truly judge all these players for all they are worth fairly and accurately without bias. I mostly try to rate the performance (not in terms of artistic merit, or commercial value) of these players as competitors, because that's at least somewhat achievable in my opinion.
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EPT
