EPTWhy Chinese Teams Failed - Page 3
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On March 05 2016 04:56 Plansix wrote: OG got 3rd at the last major. That is still in the top 4. That isn't failure. What are you talking about? They won that tournament. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Frankfurt_Major/2015 No Chinese team was in the top three. That's a failure by any standard. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
So that being aid and the metric for failure being no team in the top 4. Can you prove China had no teams in the top 4 for the majority of events in 2015?(note: events with no or one chinese team should be ignored) | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On March 05 2016 05:23 Plansix wrote: Woops, I keep mistaking OG for a chinese team for some reason. So that being aid and the metric for failure being no team in the top 4. Can you prove China had no teams in the top 4 for the majority of events in 2015?(note: events with no or one chinese team should be ignored) No, but given that many of those events had a lot less than 16 teams, and were missing several of the top Western teams, it hardly matters that they placed in the top 4 of them. Just the fact that they failed to win even a single one shows that they were a failure in 2015, and this becomes a lot easier to see when you go into the 16 team tournaments with all the top Western teams. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
melonzz 61 points 19 hours ago "I banned dark seer and enchantress because after studying all of LGD's games at this event I couldn't find any other heroes rotk played well. There are certainly cultural differences between the West and the East, but the first rule of leadership is to accept more than your share of the blame and less than your share of the credit." melonzz 39 points 18 hours ago* "It's insulting for someone so obviously half-assing it to claim he's working as hard as I do, as hard as HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS of other players are. WE tried REALLY REALLY FUCKING HARD to get this far, and we're STILL not good enough. In 2013 you could phone it in and still place top 3 in tournaments, it's no longer possible. EG are all some of the best players in the world, but the reason they've been so incredibly consistent is because they never stopped working hard. If you don't show up to the opening ceremony in your own fucking country you have no right to tell anyone that you cared enough." | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
 But seriously, there's definitely issues in chinese dota. Even most of the 'newcomers' like Maybe/CTY/Fy/Fenrir/etc were people who played a ton of dota1 with established names like PIS. I don't think there's any REAL new blood in chinese dota. They got to where they are/were via connections. I think only the original CDEC was like a team with randoms(basically maybe's friends, the stack he pubbed with)+Maybe, and they improved a lot. Basically going from nothing to a decent tier2 team, after Maybe left I guess they were even more motivated. Idk why they suck now. | ||
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Yurie
11879 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On March 05 2016 09:26 Andre wrote: I think Azarkon is panicking because if China dota dies there is nothing left to do. But seriously, there's definitely issues in chinese dota. Even most of the 'newcomers' like Maybe/CTY/Fy/Fenrir/etc were people who played a ton of dota1 with established names like PIS. I don't think there's any REAL new blood in chinese dota. They got to where they are/were via connections. I think only the original CDEC was like a team with randoms(basically maybe's friends, the stack he pubbed with)+Maybe, and they improved a lot. Basically going from nothing to a decent tier2 team, after Maybe left I guess they were even more motivated. Idk why they suck now. CDEC wasn't really random, Xz and Agressif have both being playing on other tier 2 teams and both dota 1 veterans. Maybe was completely new but basically he got benched at the start of his career so he can finish high school or something. I do think that some of the old burdens need to retire, for example burning, despite his reputation, he hasn't won a TI and let's be honest here, he's being given all the supports and opportunities the Chinese scene has to offer. They even build a DK team with the best Asia has to offer and he still couldn't do it. This guy is just not TI material. ROTK also needs to GTFO. If I were the managers of Chinese teams I'd fired everyone and start fresh, use only new players that are hungry for results. It might take a year of losing or years but you would get there eventually. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
instead of say, quoting results across different games across different periods of time, maybe it's time to shed the facade, and come out to say you're racially biased against Chinese. you're all about sharing truths right? whatever you get out of all that, anyway. i sincerely hope you've realized the differences time and time again. If i were you, i'd go as far as to check and read up my own post history, but i am not you and we hold different values, very obviously. in person, i'd call you a racist. and i've never felt the need to do that to anyone before. online, i think it's bleeding edge racial bias since it's based around a game instead of anything else that could be used as an obnoxious comparison. the anonymity of the internet allows people to do stuff like this, and frankly i view it was a form of bullying more than it is a side of sports fandom. in my opinion, it's a team of gamers first and foremost. i don't really need to say much else about the surrounding scene because it's supposed to be awesome and thriving. i just do not want to post or even thinking about reading your bait because it is a beaten-dead story about azarkon vs. China, or azarkon vs. something else he has his eyes on. and because of that small detail while so much else is going on, that's plenty enough to deter someone like me from this sub-community of teamliquid. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On March 06 2016 03:25 Laertes wrote: I love how a disgusting slick of shit like you deems it necessary for someone to quit because you think them unworthy. This argument is disgusting and needs to be called out every time it's used. You really think that Burning and Rotk need to leave the scene because they're "washed up"? They should decide that, not a wannabe-pimp like you. You're obviously not TI material, maybe you should stop playing Dota. In fact, we should all stop playing and circle jerking Dota cause many of us will never win a TI. I get sick to my stomach when I see this kind of attitude, I'll be honest it makes me lose respect for the fuckwads who spew it. Go fuck yourself rage-kid before I slit your throat. User was temp banned for this post. rofl what the fuck some one is mad did the demographic of TL changed so much these days we get random kids raging all the time. | ||
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pat777
United States356 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
He should've applied to LGD or a tier 2 team to train a year or two because he's obviously not ready for the big stage. He needs a mentor who can set him in for the pro meta and game flow, kinda like what ROTK did for ehome when ehome was new. People say he's bad but you can tell he's playing the game with different ideas to everyone else, he has his own approach to the game which got him very far on the mmr but then he kinda got a break when black carried CIS into TI... which was good results wise but did not contribute to his development. I think he has potential but he needs to play on a team that is willing to accept him and his failures, not the likes of iG or newbee which only wants results. He has potential because I think he actually think of his own way to approach the game, unlike some pro players in China which pretty much rely and grind on a few heroes to win. Also he's an offliner which is probably the most difficult position to play and easy for people to hate and honestly he just doesn't have the experience to exceed at this level right now but his playstyle certainly is a right fit. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On March 06 2016 14:56 haduken wrote: rofl what the fuck some one is mad did the demographic of TL changed so much these days we get random kids raging all the time. reminder laertes is the guy who claims to be a chess IM and that "mistakes he makes when he's emotional" are the only thing holding him back. and the guy who bought a 5k account to try and prove that elo hell was real. and the guy who can't piss in a toilet. just check out his blogs on this site  | ||
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Denia1
148 Posts
On March 06 2016 14:56 haduken wrote: rofl what the fuck some one is mad did the demographic of TL changed so much these days we get random kids raging all the time. He might not have expressed himself in the best way possible, but I wholeheartedly agree with his opinion. I find it absolutely distasteful when people suggest players should retire just because they are not recently winning tourmanets. Yeah maybe if they are injured and there's a risk to their health then it's appropriate. Look at Jaromir Jagr in the NHL, the guy is 44 and point leader for his team. Do you know how many times have people like you said he should retire and that he is washed up? Someone is playing bad, or not according to expectations, doesn't equal to he should gtfo and retire. Burning is a bloody legend, and an amazing dota player. His mechanics are excellent and so is his game sense. He is capable of playing a faster carry style, maybe he isn't as good as some of the newer carries like Arteezy at doing it, but so what? If the Chinese teams were willing to take risks and use younger players instead of the old guard, they should do so, but they don't. Is that a mistake? Maybe. Is it Burning's fault? No. Hell, there's plenty of chinese farm teams, and tier 2 teams younger players can form their own teams. While Laertes' language is inappropriate, the response that a team should disband and players retire after a bad performance is also inappropriate in my book. | ||
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Ufnal
Poland1435 Posts
China has been having "bad events" for all of 2015-2016." which, considering TI5 or the last big event before Shanghai, is kinda riddiculous. Or he starts to use the term "winning a tournament" in regional contest, as in West or East won a tournament if they got 1st place, which doesn't honestly make sense (if a tournament had 1st place West and 2nd-5th East, then counting it as a Wester win is strange). | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
if we just look at the results from ti2 to ti5 we see that the structure in the east-west comparision never really changed. there were always 1 or 2 strong western teams that could go toe to toe with everything china had to offer. navi ti2, navi/alliance ti3, eg/alliance ti4, eg/secret ti5. not meaning the internationals alone, but the whole season for anyone wanting to point out alliance ti4 performance. but the gap between those t1 western teams and the rest of the pack was always higher than the gap between the top ~5 chinese teams. this has definately changed in the post ti5 era but its a new thing. | ||
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