Why Chinese Teams Failed - Page 2

On March 05 2016 02:57 Dracolich70 wrote:
Icex3 said the same things in last major as well. It's on par with any other team West and East trying to excuse their performances. An excuse that is older than time itself, and got started in Dota 2 by Na'vi.

You started off saying that western teams didn't practice for MDL, is that laziness? Or was that just an excuse that had no bearing, considering only OG had a vacation after their long road trip?

Let me guess, was the laziness in China about Chuan practicing alone, when his team mates played other games? How do you explain them being pos 2-5 at TI, if they are lazy in back in 2014, which btw was the year they had 2 teams in finals?

All I see are a bunch of excuses, tunnel visioned bias, a lot of fluff that can't decide what it wants to say, as it goes in all directions, with some truths.

What Western team other than EG has been stable, who btw couldn't dictate meta, or be ahead of the curve themselves, much due to not playing very often.

On March 05 2016 03:19 Azarkon wrote:


It's the only explanation that is logical, unless you actually believe teams just randomly fall off together in individual and team play. Chinese teams looked out of practice, they talked about being out of practice and not practicing, so what's there to say but that they didn't practice?

On March 05 2016 03:33 Dracolich70 wrote:
What is logical? A lot of teams looked off in this tournament. VP, OG for instance.

Icex3 said the same things about his team at Frankfurt major.
http://www.joindota.com/en/news/33599-vgs-iceiceice-explains-why-chinese-teams-are-not-taking-the-major-seriously

1) If China had a lazy approach to practice regimens back in 2014(which is some years after you said it first time, and when Chinese fans used it as an excuse, when they didn't win), how did they have 2 teams in finals at TI4, and positioned 2-5 in TI5? If they lack motivation, why do they end high placements in tournaments. Is this from some premise that they are much stronger than Western teams, and are supposed to do much better?

2) If China still asphyxiated their talent pool, how do you explain eHome and CDEC?

3) If China didn't care, why do they have more tournaments now, than ever, and participate in more tournaments abroad, than they did in 2012 and 2013?

So which one is it? Are they excused by Chinese holiday, or is it a general thing, or do you think they should be much better than West, that also has teams that either peaks or slumps?

We can agree that their reading of patches are slower, and it has always been this way. That is not strange considering the amount of regional integration and tournaments played in EU.

On March 05 2016 03:15 FuzzyJAM wrote:
"Lack of new talent. Many analysts indicate that it's due to a lack of "genius" new talent such as Miracle, W33ha, etc"

Mind carrying on that "etc."? Who else is there except Matumba and Mind_Control?

The idea that there's lots of new talent in the West doesn't really work. If you want to argue that "tier 1" pros are willing to work with pros from "tier 2" teams more. . .well, I still don't think that works either if you actually look at roster changes. But of course that claim is so vague as to be impossible to refute, so meh.

On March 05 2016 04:02 Dracolich70 wrote:
1. They have said this since [A] stomped them in China. Just like every other team has, when they underperformed. If it wasn't something else, like sudden chemistry problems. There is nothing in their execution on a general level that suggest that their mechinical skills are worse than Wests. CDEC showed at TI4 how to play CIS dota and succeeded where they failed. eHome just stomped their way through MDL, improving over their 4th place at Frankfurt Major, where they went out to the later winners.

If playing public games is not practice, how do you believe EG playing something like 30 games in the same span of OG playing 150? Are they lazy too?

2. We have veterans carrying the younger players too in West. Players that has been recycled across teams or been a factor in teams, just to name a few; Pajkatt, Misery, Fear, XBOCT, KKY, Black, Dendi, PPY.

3. They don't have more tournaments now? If they have less, and they decide their practice regimens, how is it a legimate response that they are not practicing for those premiere tournaments? Since when did Chinese become lazy, when it is against their whole upbringing, whereas the West have always had the more lax attitude.

Many teams have still not figured out the patch yet. I would dare to say none has, because most things are viable.

On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote:
You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.

On March 05 2016 04:26 Azarkon wrote:


Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.

That's evidence enough.

On March 05 2016 04:31 Plansix wrote:

That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.

On March 05 2016 03:53 Azarkon wrote:


Those four from this year alone aren't enough for you?



The West has actually been very successful with new talent in the last two years. Sumail, Arteezy, and PPD from 2014. The four above from 2015. And there are also new players in 2016 to look forward to. Not all new talent will be successful, but when they are successful, they raise the over all level of teams and of the region.

On March 05 2016 04:36 Azarkon wrote:


No it isn't. You do understand we're talking about twenty-five players here, in total? You understand also that these two players practice with all the other Chinese teams and know their players?

On March 05 2016 04:39 FuzzyJAM wrote:

You can list seven new players in two years for the entire Western scene and think China has less?

kk.

On March 05 2016 04:41 Plansix wrote:

Yes, which is just two players perspectives on the region when it comes to one event. Last time I checked, OG got 3rd place. Which is where EG ends up some times. China as a whole had a bad event this time, but that doesn't mean much beyond that.

On March 05 2016 04:43 Azarkon wrote:


China has been having "bad events" for all of 2015-2016.

On March 05 2016 04:45 Plansix wrote:

2nd place at the international is bad?

On March 05 2016 04:47 Azarkon wrote:


How about losing twelve straight tournaments? Does that "not mean much?" I think I did this math before - they had a 9% win rate on international tournaments from 2015-2016.

On March 05 2016 04:51 Plansix wrote:

How is making it the finals of the international bad by any metric? The finals means the best two teams. And as PPD said, anyone in the top 4 of any event could take the whole thing.