I was going to make a bigger post about why Chinese Dota failed, but I lost motivation about 50% of the way in, similar to the Chinese teams I was writing about, lelz. So instead of that, this is what I have.
There are three levels of analysis, when it comes to why and how Chinese teams failed.
On the surface, the Chinese teams failed because of:
* Poor understanding of the current game, as swindlemelonzz showed. Chinese teams play too slow, aren't rotating for objectives when they ought to be, and don't know the best heroes.
* Failure to diversity their hero choices and strategies. Except for Ehome, which tried to play a different strategy every game, but failed to execute in the end, the other Chinese teams all tried to play "standard" Chinese strategies and, when they did try to insert new heroes into the strategy, they usually failed at it.
* Bad coordination, decision making, and, at times, individual skill/understanding. We see this in all their games.
One could simply stop there and say these are the in game reasons for why Chinese teams failed. But that'd be a poor analysis because it doesn't explain why they had the above issues, and consequently, fails to indicate when/whether they're going to improve. Many analysts, I feel, simply stop at this level, which is why they don't see Chinese fails coming.
Going a level deeper, the reasons why Chinese teams failed can be placed on out of game problems:
* Chinese New Years affected practice. Ehome's manager, 71, said as much going into the tournament, and so did Iceiceice in the interview. The result, they explain, is that Chinese teams only practiced for 5-10 days. This would certainly play into the above in game issues.
* Lack of motivation. Iceiceice said this in his interview. Chinese players and teams, according to him, don't care enough, not even for a three million dollars tournament, and so teams haven't been training very hard. By contrast, for example, the Koreans trained for two months, 15 hours each day, according to their interview. This would also certainly result in the above in game issues.
* Lack of new talent. Many analysts indicate that it's due to a lack of "genius" new talent such as Miracle, W33ha, etc. They observe that old players should retire and that they need the "fire" that new talent brings, and their new ideas. This would affect individual skill, in game understanding, and lack of different strategies/hero choices.
The above is certainly a nice list of causes, and is now becoming the standard explanation with regards to Chinese Dota's issues. But the problem is that it still doesn't go deep enough - it still doesn't answer enough of "why?" Why would Chinese teams not be motivated? Why wouldn't they sacrifice time off to do well on such a big tournament? Why didn't they do what the Koreans, despite having their own server shut down and a holiday around the same time, did? Why don't they have new talent such as Miracle, W33ha, etc.?
To answer why, we need to go down a level even further than that:
* Poor practice culture. This issue has come up time and time again. We hear about Chinese teams not wanting to practice against other Chinese teams because they don't want to show strategies, else because they feel the other side isn't trying hard in practice, and that practice is useless because of it. This problem has been especially talked about in Chinese League of Legends, but I first observed it in Chinese Dota in 2014 - teams in China have not established an effective practice culture which allows them to constantly improve their individual skill and strategic level. They have an attitude problem with regards to practice and a lack of trust between teams, leading to situations where teams would refuse to practice with one another, and situations where teams would use tournaments, instead of practice, to practice, which is ridiculous. The end result of this poor practice culture is that they can't actually develop their own strategies and new heroes, because they don't know what works and what doesn't for lack of an effective environment in which to test them.
* Bad management. Lazy players and players with attitudes are a problem across regions. It's certainly not limited to China. What is limited to China, however, is the failure of team management to address these issues. Coaches, except for a small few, look to have no power over players, and no say in who is on the team. Management isn't actually required to produce results, else they are required to do it but lack the ability to do so because they won't kick lazy/bad players. Management is also pretty damn bad at finding new talent, as veteran players continue to get an easy way into teams even when they are obviously bad and aren't trying. Players are allowed to spend 3-4 months playing other games, and take month long vacations before three million dollar tournaments. Team owners don't give a fuck, else don't know what the fuck they're doing, when it comes to putting together a team.
* Results don't matter enough. This brings us to the final and biggest issue with Chinese Dota, and indeed Chinese eSports: the failure to develop a competitive environment in which motivated, talented players rise to the top, while lazy, not performing players are thrown to the bottom. Famous players, veteran players with "connections," and players who are able to draw in a large audience when they play are taken over players who actually have the motivation and talent to succeed at the highest level. These players are rarely punished for not performing, and even when they are punished - for example in the case of ROTK - they just use their friends to put themselves in another top team. The standard of performance for being on a "professional" teams in Chinese Dota are, as such, low, and even when those already low standards are not met, all it results in is a few players getting moved between teams, instead of addressing basic problems such as practice culture and work attitude. The end result is not only a lack of new talent, not only poor work attitude among professional players, but a bad *environment* in which players, from the bottom to the top, are not motivated to improve themselves because it doesn't matter.
The above is where I'd stop. You could go further and say that it's because of Chinese culture, society, etc., and that it's due to the same basic attitude problems that affected the production quality of this tournament, but it's not necessary, and it's not productive. This is because industries and communities don't necessarily follow the same national standards. For example, the Chinese do very well in the Olympics, and are at the top of the world in international student competitions in math, science, etc. Their immigrants are usually seen as hard working and successful, and many top Western teams in both League of Legends and Dota 2 do have immigrant Chinese players - but not imports. They have also done well in Dota in the past, so it's not though they've never been able to play the game. To this end, I think the third level is the best level from which to understand the problems of Chinese Dota.
Causes that, in my opinion, are not as important as people think:
* Money. A lot of people have brought up the issue of money, saying that Chinese players get a larger amount of money playing public games with/for their fans, than they do practicing for professional tournaments. I'd believe this, but for the fact that Chinese players don't actually play a lot of public games, and only a few of them get large audiences when they play. In fact, the Chinese players who do this best are players not on professional teams, such as YYF, so it doesn't explain why players would choose to be on professional teams in the first place, unless what they were after is a break out, which would require them to actually have results. Further, were they after that, then they'd surely understand the value of being at the top of the MMR list: http://www.dota2.com/leaderboards/#china. Yet we don't see them at the top of this list. Instead we see Koreans and people who don't play on professional teams.
* They're always slow at adapting to game changes. The last big change to the game was over three months ago. You cannot argue that the Chinese are so slow at adapting to the changes that they still don't know how to play the game three months later. The top strategies and heroes changing among top professional teams does not equate to the game itself changing and it's not though the years during which the Chinese were successful saw no changes to the top strategies and heroes. No, it's just that in 2014, the Chinese teams were actually motivated because they weren't full of players who've played the game for so long that they've lost all desire to play, and their management wasn't as bad as it has become today. The details we don't know, but I'm pretty sure that back then, they actually had standards for themselves, and that's why they were able to win.
* Too many people play League of Legends in China. Yes, League of Legends is more popular in China than Dota 2 - as it is every where in the world, except for Russia, and we all know how well Russia did this tournament. That doesn't change the fact that Dota 2 still has a much larger player base in China than regions that have out performed the Chinese this tournament. South Korea doesn't even have their own server, and teams such as Fnatic went to China to practice, instead of Southeast Asia. In no way can player population be the primary cause for China's failures, except as an excuse for Chinese organizations not doing what they ought to be doing.
One thing though, why do you think Ehome managed to snab the MDL tournament then? Ehome playing so bad this major makes no sense to me, CTY seemed unstoppable and finally at a right place. Old chicken played well enough and eleven was making plays always. This tournament it looked like nobody had any synergy and they each played an individual game...
Also if chinese teams don't cooperate as far as practice is concerned I can only facepalm. It's happened before to DK when they dominated and I guess it's happening again..
In SF4 Japanese players would play each other, share strats and just try to improve as a collective while the western world was individualistic and selfish. No wonder who came out on top.
it's pretty obvious ehome just didn't practice... most of their games they lost on executions, rather than the other Chinese teams who just didn't have a clue.
One thing though, why do you think Ehome managed to snab the MDL tournament then? Ehome playing so bad this major makes no sense to me, CTY seemed unstoppable and finally at a right place. Old chicken played well enough and eleven was making plays always. This tournament it looked like nobody had any synergy and they each played an individual game...
Also if chinese teams don't cooperate as far as practice is concerned I can only facepalm. It's happened before to DK when they dominated and I guess it's happening again..
In SF4 Japanese players would play each other, share strats and just try to improve as a collective while the western world was individualistic and selfish. No wonder who came out on top.
Because MDL was a full month before Shanghai, and many teams, especially Western teams, have not yet stepped up their practice at this time, so they were in a similar situation as the Chinese teams in terms of practice and preparation. Even the Koreans only started to hard practice two months before Shanghai, which is when they started doing 15 hours of Dota a day.
Chinese teams very obviously did not put in the time and effort for Shanghai, and this is the single, biggest, and immediate reason for their fail. It is also the easiest to understand and explains all the different problems with their play.
But we have to ask: why didn't they practice? That's the issue I tried to answer, because it's simply stupid, to us, that they'd not practice hard for a three million tournament, success in which leads directly into another three million tournament, and then the international. Shanghai was and is the biggest and most important event for Chinese teams until the international, because it decides how many of them can even show up in the next such tournament in Southeast Asia, and results from that tournament decide how many of them can go to the international. Thus, their shots of going to the international and other big tournaments coming up was on the line, and they still managed to not prepare, not practice, and that requires us to explain beyond "they got lazy."
I feel like money might be a pretty big contributing factor. But not in that they get paid too much to pub since western players use pubs and practice quite effectively so it's not a bad thing. However money changes people, they can get lazy and complacent. If you're making 'fuck you' money are you really going to care? We've seen its common for teams to win TI, get a windfall of money and then rest on their laurels. You see it in sports where a guy will get a mega contract than they'll just not give a shit, what does he care? He already got paid. Or in contract years suddenly a player that has been so/so suddenly blows up and sets the world on fire. When people are looking for that big payday they'll stop at nothing. Once they get it sometimes they just stop caring.
Great post. Nice of you to not go into social issues inherent to the C word. However you have to admit that lack of motivation, an exclusive group stifling reform, entrenched bureaucracy not caring about results, and rampant corruption all sound very familiar to this economic policy.
Big reason for MVP's success is due to the structure they trained their players the last couple years. They bring in foreigners like Jerax and Warnutz into two teams with a good mix of veteran players (March, Heen) and younger high skill players (Forev, QO, MP). Give them a solid year to train and develop tools to understand and beat high tier dota then combine the two teams to form a single all Korean speaking domestic team. Chinese team as you pointed out became too entrenched then stagnated, bringing in Black^ was a great idea but the execution was poor it is worth another try.
However, looking at the examples of their past eSports especially Warcraft 3 and LoL. They have repeated similar pattern of losing to Korean players and teams. Is it really surprising that they would eventually lose out to the west?
One thing though, why do you think Ehome managed to snab the MDL tournament then? Ehome playing so bad this major makes no sense to me, CTY seemed unstoppable and finally at a right place. Old chicken played well enough and eleven was making plays always. This tournament it looked like nobody had any synergy and they each played an individual game...
Also if chinese teams don't cooperate as far as practice is concerned I can only facepalm. It's happened before to DK when they dominated and I guess it's happening again..
In SF4 Japanese players would play each other, share strats and just try to improve as a collective while the western world was individualistic and selfish. No wonder who came out on top.
Ehome at MDL pretty much "got lucky" in the tournament Meta. It took me a little while after the tournament to analyze what it was that they were drafting, but they were 12-1 with First Pick & 1-12 with Second Pick. (I think it's double counting something, and it should be something like 1-8 with Second Pick.) old chicken was the new drafter and he was running a knife-edge with his strategies.
The best way to think about it was "gotcha" drafting. Since Kaka is one of the best player on Earth Spirit and he knew how to draft with it, he would pretty much decide their strategy after they saw the first 2 picks by the other team. This is why the good teams simply drafted far more openly in the first phase. It gives them more room to counter what Ehome wanted to do.
At the same time, at Shanghai, old eleven's illness in the group stage pretty much ensured they didn't have a chance, as he was whiffing practically everything in the later parts of the group. But that doesn't get away with looking horribly unprepared. Which is exactly how they looked. They looked okay against CDEC because they knew how to play against CDEC already. None of the Chinese teams looked prepared for the drafting phases. Individual skill, for a lot of the teams, looked fine. But they didn't have a clue for how to produce any synergy between their laning & mid-game approaches.
On March 04 2016 10:06 OuchyDathurts wrote: I feel like money might be a pretty big contributing factor. But not in that they get paid too much to pub since western players use pubs and practice quite effectively so it's not a bad thing. However money changes people, they can get lazy and complacent. If you're making 'fuck you' money are you really going to care? We've seen its common for teams to win TI, get a windfall of money and then rest on their laurels. You see it in sports where a guy will get a mega contract than they'll just not give a shit, what does he care? He already got paid. Or in contract years suddenly a player that has been so/so suddenly blows up and sets the world on fire. When people are looking for that big payday they'll stop at nothing. Once they get it sometimes they just stop caring.
"Money changes people." - PPD
But not as much as we think, which is why PPD's team remains one of the best teams in the world and are doing very well in Shanghai, while no Chinese team did well. Yes, money can make you lazy, but the will to succeed can over take it, as it did for many of the Western players who have won international, and as it did when Alliance "came back" in the last few months to win several big tournaments.
I'm also sure the Chinese Dota 2 players aren't paid the same amount as their League of Legends players, and certainly not the League of Legends Korean players they bought, so they have every cause to try to win big tournaments to increase their value.
On March 04 2016 10:07 MaCRo.gg wrote: Great post. Nice of you to not go into social issues inherent to the C word. However you have to admit that lack of motivation, an exclusive group stifling reform, entrenched bureaucracy not caring about results, and rampant corruption all sound very familiar to this economic policy.
Culture and societal issues certainly play into it but I think there are enough exceptions to not have to bring them in, especially due to the fact that the Chinese were not always this bad. Had they been bad from the start, I think it'd be a lot easier to argue that "it's China."
But they weren't this bad in 2012 and 2014. The main difference between those years and 2013 and 2015, I believe, is amount of practice. In 2013 it was due to the lack of tournaments in China, which they complained about, and wrote articles about showing that Chinese teams played only a third of the games Western teams did. In 2014 they improved that by working with Western organizations to attend international tournaments, and by practicing harder, and they were very successful that year, taking about 70-80% of the tournaments and of course the international itself.
In 2015 and 2016, they had plenty of international tournaments, but it felt as though they were always out of practice, always in lack of preparation, and never as motivated as before. Several of the Chinese players had come out to say this flat out - iceiceice being an early example. It's obvious to me they have not been practicing as hard these last two years than they had been before. It's understandable, in a way, because a lot of these players have a "been there, done that" attitude, but it is also a product of the poor environment which doesn't punish such players.
Big reason for MVP's success is due to the structure they trained their players the last couple years. They bring in foreigners like Jerax and Warnutz into two teams with a good mix of veteran players (March, Heen) and younger high skill players (Forev, QO, MP). Give them a solid year to train and develop tools to understand and beat high tier dota then combine the two teams to form a single all Korean speaking domestic team. Chinese team as you pointed out became too entrenched then stagnated, bringing in Black^ was a great idea but the execution was poor it is worth another try.
However, looking at the examples of their past eSports especially Warcraft 3 and LoL. They have repeated similar pattern of losing to Korean players and teams. Is it really surprising that they would eventually lose out to the west?
You bring in talent from outside to help you catch up. You don't bring them in when you're already equal/ahead. The Chinese didn't bring in Black to teach them Dota - at the time Black went to China, China was still pretty successful in Dota. They brought him in because he was friends with iceiceice and "connections" are how Chinese teams recruit. This actually shows a problem with Chinese Dota, as it was obvious to many of us that Black wasn't the best choice for them at the time. Of course, their current carry player is an even worse choice, and here again I think it's "connections."
As for it being a surprise - it certainly wasn't a surprise to me. But we're not talking about losing to the West. They already did that in 2013. We're talking about a worse than Southeast Asia result. That's never been the case in any game.
On March 04 2016 10:07 MaCRo.gg wrote: Great post. Nice of you to not go into social issues inherent to the C word. However you have to admit that lack of motivation, an exclusive group stifling reform, entrenched bureaucracy not caring about results, and rampant corruption all sound very familiar to this economic policy.
Big reason for MVP's success is due to the structure they trained their players the last couple years. They bring in foreigners like Jerax and Warnutz into two teams with a good mix of veteran players (March, Heen) and younger high skill players (Forev, QO, MP). Give them a solid year to train and develop tools to understand and beat high tier dota then combine the two teams to form a single all Korean speaking domestic team. Chinese team as you pointed out became too entrenched then stagnated, bringing in Black^ was a great idea but the execution was poor it is worth another try.
However, looking at the examples of their past eSports especially Warcraft 3 and LoL. They have repeated similar pattern of losing to Korean players and teams. Is it really surprising that they would eventually lose out to the west?
I wonder if MP had any prior experience to playing dota2? If you look at his early games he was 4k at best, and QO was like 4.5-5k ~1year ago as well according to reddit thread. If that's the case you really have to respect these guys. I don't think there's many people who are capable of climbing so far high in such a short time span.
I mean MP played for Birdgang, lol. While they were probably the 2nd or 3rd best team in the early korean leagues they were still like a 4k team or something.
Also, perhaps the majors need to be even more open in terms of qualification. Put some of the big teams up against newcomers in the early rounds.
On March 04 2016 10:07 MaCRo.gg wrote: Great post. Nice of you to not go into social issues inherent to the C word. However you have to admit that lack of motivation, an exclusive group stifling reform, entrenched bureaucracy not caring about results, and rampant corruption all sound very familiar to this economic policy.
Culture and societal issues certainly play into it but I think there are enough exceptions to not have to bring them in, especially due to the fact that the Chinese were not always this bad. Had they been bad from the start, I think it'd be a lot easier to argue that "it's China."
But they weren't this bad in 2012 and 2014. The main difference between those years and 2013 and 2015, I believe, is amount of practice. In 2013 it was due to the lack of tournaments in China, which they complained about, and wrote articles about showing that Chinese teams played only a third of the games Western teams did. In 2014 they improved that by working with Western organizations to attend international tournaments, and by practicing harder, and they were very successful that year, taking about 70-80% of the tournaments and of course the international itself.
In 2015 and 2016, they had plenty of international tournaments, but it felt as though they were always out of practice, always in lack of preparation, and never as motivated as before. Several of the Chinese players had come out to say this flat out - iceiceice being an early example. It's obvious to me they have not been practicing as hard these last two years than they had been before. It's understandable, in a way, because a lot of these players have a "been there, done that" attitude, but it is also a product of the poor environment which doesn't punish such players.
Big reason for MVP's success is due to the structure they trained their players the last couple years. They bring in foreigners like Jerax and Warnutz into two teams with a good mix of veteran players (March, Heen) and younger high skill players (Forev, QO, MP). Give them a solid year to train and develop tools to understand and beat high tier dota then combine the two teams to form a single all Korean speaking domestic team. Chinese team as you pointed out became too entrenched then stagnated, bringing in Black^ was a great idea but the execution was poor it is worth another try.
However, looking at the examples of their past eSports especially Warcraft 3 and LoL. They have repeated similar pattern of losing to Korean players and teams. Is it really surprising that they would eventually lose out to the west?
You bring in talent from outside to help you catch up. You don't bring them in when you're already equal/ahead. The Chinese didn't bring in Black to teach them Dota - at the time Black went to China, China was still pretty successful in Dota. They brought him in because he was friends with iceiceice and "connections" are how Chinese teams recruit. This actually shows a problem with Chinese Dota, as it was obvious to many of us that Black wasn't the best choice for them at the time. Of course, their current carry player is an even worse choice, and here again I think it's "connections."
As for it being a surprise - it certainly wasn't a surprise to me. But we're not talking about losing to the West. They already did that in 2013. We're talking about a worse than Southeast Asia result. That's never been the case in any game.
Tbf I think most of the early dota performance by the Chinese is mostly due to the layover from the popularity of Warcraft 3. Weren't the Dota 1 events quiet bigger in China and SEA regions than the west? I know Korea was too busy with BW, even if they had arguably the best Warcraft 3 player (Moon) I'm pretty positive we played Chaos instead of Dota.
I'm actually pretty confused at this general attitude in dota scene of "been there done that" attitude with the teams and players. Players like Jaedong, Flash and Boxer all had huge winnings and won everything there was to win in BW but they still came over to sc2 with huge ambitions and did a great deal for the scene. Sure there is a trend of sports personalities going "lazy" after a huge payday (JaMarcus Russel) but most champions seem to become champions because of their burning desire to become the best. Especially considering that eSports payday are pretty meager compared to real sports athletes, it is hard to think that players will be set for life on their winnings alone.
If Korea is included in SEA (which in Dota apparently it is), SEA had more than its fair share of wins vs China cross game genres. But I'm assuming in this case it isn't? EDIT: Actually I'm pretty sure that all the MVP guys played Chaos.
On March 04 2016 10:07 MaCRo.gg wrote: Great post. Nice of you to not go into social issues inherent to the C word. However you have to admit that lack of motivation, an exclusive group stifling reform, entrenched bureaucracy not caring about results, and rampant corruption all sound very familiar to this economic policy.
Big reason for MVP's success is due to the structure they trained their players the last couple years. They bring in foreigners like Jerax and Warnutz into two teams with a good mix of veteran players (March, Heen) and younger high skill players (Forev, QO, MP). Give them a solid year to train and develop tools to understand and beat high tier dota then combine the two teams to form a single all Korean speaking domestic team. Chinese team as you pointed out became too entrenched then stagnated, bringing in Black^ was a great idea but the execution was poor it is worth another try.
However, looking at the examples of their past eSports especially Warcraft 3 and LoL. They have repeated similar pattern of losing to Korean players and teams. Is it really surprising that they would eventually lose out to the west?
I wonder if MP had any prior experience to playing dota2? If you look at his early games he was 4k at best, and QO was like 4.5-5k ~1year ago as well according to reddit thread. If that's the case you really have to respect these guys. I don't think there's many people who are capable of climbing so far high in such a short time span.
I mean MP played for Birdgang, lol. While they were probably the 2nd or 3rd best team in the early korean leagues they were still like a 4k team or something.
Also, perhaps the majors need to be even more open in terms of qualification. Put some of the big teams up against newcomers in the early rounds.
i think i'm beginning to understand akzakron now. he's like that person who constantly says he hate something, but in fact is deeply in love with it and cannot exist w/o it.
On March 04 2016 23:04 evanthebouncy! wrote: i think i'm beginning to understand akzakron now. he's like that person who constantly says he hate something, but in fact is deeply in love with it and cannot exist w/o it.
Icex3 said the same things in last major as well. It's on par with any other team West and East trying to excuse their performances. An excuse that is older than time itself, and got started in Dota 2 by Na'vi.
You started off saying that western teams didn't practice for MDL, is that laziness? Or was that just an excuse that had no bearing, considering only OG had a vacation after their long road trip?
Let me guess, was the laziness in China about Chuan practicing alone, when his team mates played other games? How do you explain them being pos 2-5 at TI, if they are lazy in back in 2014, which btw was the year they had 2 teams in finals?
All I see are a bunch of excuses, tunnel visioned bias, a lot of fluff that can't decide what it wants to say, as it goes in all directions, with some truths.
What Western team other than EG has been stable, who btw couldn't dictate meta, or be ahead of the curve themselves, much due to not playing very often.
On March 05 2016 02:57 Dracolich70 wrote: Icex3 said the same things in last major as well. It's on par with any other team West and East trying to excuse their performances. An excuse that is older than time itself, and got started in Dota 2 by Na'vi.
You started off saying that western teams didn't practice for MDL, is that laziness? Or was that just an excuse that had no bearing, considering only OG had a vacation after their long road trip?
Let me guess, was the laziness in China about Chuan practicing alone, when his team mates played other games? How do you explain them being pos 2-5 at TI, if they are lazy in back in 2014, which btw was the year they had 2 teams in finals?
All I see are a bunch of excuses, tunnel visioned bias, a lot of fluff that can't decide what it wants to say, as it goes in all directions, with some truths.
im pretty sure that he wrote the same piece a few years back. probably after alliance won ti3. he just had to change a few names in the lack of talent thing. after ti3 bulldog and egm were a thing now you have miracle and w33
On March 05 2016 02:57 Dracolich70 wrote: Icex3 said the same things in last major as well. It's on par with any other team West and East trying to excuse their performances. An excuse that is older than time itself, and got started in Dota 2 by Na'vi.
You started off saying that western teams didn't practice for MDL, is that laziness? Or was that just an excuse that had no bearing, considering only OG had a vacation after their long road trip?
Let me guess, was the laziness in China about Chuan practicing alone, when his team mates played other games? How do you explain them being pos 2-5 at TI, if they are lazy in back in 2014, which btw was the year they had 2 teams in finals?
All I see are a bunch of excuses, tunnel visioned bias, a lot of fluff that can't decide what it wants to say, as it goes in all directions, with some truths.
im pretty sure that he wrote the same piece a few years back. probably after alliance won ti3. he just wrote w33, miracle instead of egm,bulldog
He has had the same narrative, since I read it first in late 2012. Back then it was a response to the arrogance of Chinese fans. It is selective picking, overemphasizing things, and generally just painting a picture which is an hyperbole of reality. Now he uses the worst performance of China to state, that he said this all along.
He can't seem to make up his mind whether it is situational, a general theme, or it has been coming since long, even though China took steps to fix their deficits making more tournaments, making more teams. There are some half truths in it, but next time he is just gonna say, "Well, I was wrong this time, but 70% of the time I am right", even though it pretty much resets his whole premise.
"Lack of new talent. Many analysts indicate that it's due to a lack of "genius" new talent such as Miracle, W33ha, etc"
Mind carrying on that "etc."? Who else is there except Matumba and Mind_Control?
The idea that there's lots of new talent in the West doesn't really work. If you want to argue that "tier 1" pros are willing to work with pros from "tier 2" teams more. . .well, I still don't think that works either if you actually look at roster changes. But of course that claim is so vague as to be impossible to refute, so meh.
On March 05 2016 02:57 Dracolich70 wrote: Icex3 said the same things in last major as well. It's on par with any other team West and East trying to excuse their performances. An excuse that is older than time itself, and got started in Dota 2 by Na'vi.
You started off saying that western teams didn't practice for MDL, is that laziness? Or was that just an excuse that had no bearing, considering only OG had a vacation after their long road trip?
Let me guess, was the laziness in China about Chuan practicing alone, when his team mates played other games? How do you explain them being pos 2-5 at TI, if they are lazy in back in 2014, which btw was the year they had 2 teams in finals?
All I see are a bunch of excuses, tunnel visioned bias, a lot of fluff that can't decide what it wants to say, as it goes in all directions, with some truths.
What Western team other than EG has been stable, who btw couldn't dictate meta, or be ahead of the curve themselves, much due to not playing very often.
It's the only explanation that is logical, unless you actually believe teams just randomly fall off together in individual and team play. Chinese teams looked out of practice, they talked about being out of practice and not practicing, so what's there to say but that they didn't practice?
On March 05 2016 02:57 Dracolich70 wrote: Icex3 said the same things in last major as well. It's on par with any other team West and East trying to excuse their performances. An excuse that is older than time itself, and got started in Dota 2 by Na'vi.
You started off saying that western teams didn't practice for MDL, is that laziness? Or was that just an excuse that had no bearing, considering only OG had a vacation after their long road trip?
Let me guess, was the laziness in China about Chuan practicing alone, when his team mates played other games? How do you explain them being pos 2-5 at TI, if they are lazy in back in 2014, which btw was the year they had 2 teams in finals?
All I see are a bunch of excuses, tunnel visioned bias, a lot of fluff that can't decide what it wants to say, as it goes in all directions, with some truths.
What Western team other than EG has been stable, who btw couldn't dictate meta, or be ahead of the curve themselves, much due to not playing very often.
It's the only explanation that is logical, unless you actually believe teams just randomly fall off together in individual and team play. Chinese teams looked out of practice, they talked about being out of practice and not practicing, so what's there to say but that they didn't practice?
What is logical? A lot of teams looked off in this tournament. VP, OG for instance.
1) If China had a lazy approach to practice regimens back in 2014(which is some years after you said it first time, and when Chinese fans used it as an excuse, when they didn't win), how did they have 2 teams in finals at TI4, and positioned 2-5 in TI5? If they lack motivation, why do they end high placements in tournaments. Is this from some premise that they are much stronger than Western teams, and are supposed to do much better?
2) If China still asphyxiated their talent pool, how do you explain eHome and CDEC? How do you explain their inception of youth teams of the major teams?
3) If China didn't care, why do they have more tournaments now, than ever, and participate in more tournaments abroad, than they did in 2012 and 2013?
So which one is it? Are they excused by Chinese holiday, or is it a general thing, or do you think they should be much better than West, that also has teams that either peaks or slumps?
We can agree that their reading of patches are slower, and it has always been this way. That is not strange considering the amount of regional integration and tournaments played in EU.
On March 05 2016 02:57 Dracolich70 wrote: Icex3 said the same things in last major as well. It's on par with any other team West and East trying to excuse their performances. An excuse that is older than time itself, and got started in Dota 2 by Na'vi.
You started off saying that western teams didn't practice for MDL, is that laziness? Or was that just an excuse that had no bearing, considering only OG had a vacation after their long road trip?
Let me guess, was the laziness in China about Chuan practicing alone, when his team mates played other games? How do you explain them being pos 2-5 at TI, if they are lazy in back in 2014, which btw was the year they had 2 teams in finals?
All I see are a bunch of excuses, tunnel visioned bias, a lot of fluff that can't decide what it wants to say, as it goes in all directions, with some truths.
What Western team other than EG has been stable, who btw couldn't dictate meta, or be ahead of the curve themselves, much due to not playing very often.
It's the only explanation that is logical, unless you actually believe teams just randomly fall off together in individual and team play. Chinese teams looked out of practice, they talked about being out of practice and not practicing, so what's there to say but that they didn't practice?
What is logical? A lot of teams looked off in this tournament. VP, OG for instance.
1) If China had a lazy approach to practice regimens back in 2014(which is some years after you said it first time, and when Chinese fans used it as an excuse, when they didn't win), how did they have 2 teams in finals at TI4, and positioned 2-5 in TI5? If they lack motivation, why do they end high placements in tournaments. Is this from some premise that they are much stronger than Western teams, and are supposed to do much better?
2) If China still asphyxiated their talent pool, how do you explain eHome and CDEC?
3) If China didn't care, why do they have more tournaments now, than ever, and participate in more tournaments abroad, than they did in 2012 and 2013?
So which one is it? Are they excused by Chinese holiday, or is it a general thing, or do you think they should be much better than West, that also has teams that either peaks or slumps?
1. Chinese teams are lazy today in a way that they were not in 2014. I think I explained this. In 2014, they not only attended international tournaments but practiced for them. It was after winning the international during that year, that they became especially lazy - for example Newbee not bothering to practice for four months, players playing other games, etc. It's also in late 2015 that we start hearing about the Chinese teams not being motivated in interviews. Previously they never said this.
2. The new talent problem is the effect of a larger issue having to do with out of control veteran players and low standards. In recent times, there have been efforts by the Chinese teams to bring in new players, and the new talent problem is much less of an issue now in Chinese Dota than before, but the issue that created in the new talent problem in the first place has not been solved, and it is that problem that is central to poor Chinese results.
3. What are you talking about? They have less tournaments now than before, and attendance is decided by the owners/management, not the players. Practice, however, is decided by the players. Had the former also been decided by the players, I imagine we wouldn't even see Chinese teams in the bulk of these tournaments.
We can agree that their reading of patches are slower, and it has always been this way. That is not strange considering the amount of regional integration and tournaments played in EU.
This is not an excuse you can use when the last big change to the game was from over three months ago.
On March 05 2016 03:15 FuzzyJAM wrote: "Lack of new talent. Many analysts indicate that it's due to a lack of "genius" new talent such as Miracle, W33ha, etc"
Mind carrying on that "etc."? Who else is there except Matumba and Mind_Control?
Those four from this year alone aren't enough for you?
The idea that there's lots of new talent in the West doesn't really work. If you want to argue that "tier 1" pros are willing to work with pros from "tier 2" teams more. . .well, I still don't think that works either if you actually look at roster changes. But of course that claim is so vague as to be impossible to refute, so meh.
The West has actually been very successful with new talent in the last two years. Sumail, Arteezy, and PPD from 2014. The four above from 2015. And there are also new players in 2016 to look forward to. Not all new talent will be successful, but when they are successful, they raise the over all level of teams and of the region.
1. They have said this since [A] stomped them in China. Just like every other team has, when they underperformed. If it wasn't something else, like sudden chemistry problems. There is nothing in their execution on a general level that suggest that their mechinical skills are worse than Wests. CDEC showed at TI4 how to play CIS dota and succeeded where they failed. eHome just stomped their way through MDL, improving over their 4th place at Frankfurt Major, where they went out to the later winners.
If playing public games is not practice, how do you believe EG playing something like 30 games in the same span of OG playing 150? Are they lazy too?
2. We have veterans carrying the younger players too in West. Players that has been recycled across teams or been a factor in teams, just to name a few; Pajkatt, Misery, Fear, XBOCT, KKY, Black, Dendi, PPY.
3. They don't have more tournaments now? If they have less, and they decide their practice regimens, how is it a legimate response that they are not practicing for those premiere tournaments? Since when did Chinese become lazy, when it is against their whole upbringing, whereas the West have always had the more lax attitude.
Many teams have still not figured out the patch yet. I would dare to say none has, because most things are viable.
On March 05 2016 04:02 Dracolich70 wrote: 1. They have said this since [A] stomped them in China. Just like every other team has, when they underperformed. If it wasn't something else, like sudden chemistry problems. There is nothing in their execution on a general level that suggest that their mechinical skills are worse than Wests. CDEC showed at TI4 how to play CIS dota and succeeded where they failed. eHome just stomped their way through MDL, improving over their 4th place at Frankfurt Major, where they went out to the later winners.
If playing public games is not practice, how do you believe EG playing something like 30 games in the same span of OG playing 150? Are they lazy too?
2. We have veterans carrying the younger players too in West. Players that has been recycled across teams or been a factor in teams, just to name a few; Pajkatt, Misery, Fear, XBOCT, KKY, Black, Dendi, PPY.
3. They don't have more tournaments now? If they have less, and they decide their practice regimens, how is it a legimate response that they are not practicing for those premiere tournaments? Since when did Chinese become lazy, when it is against their whole upbringing, whereas the West have always had the more lax attitude.
Many teams have still not figured out the patch yet. I would dare to say none has, because most things are viable.
I don't know why I'm arguing this when you bring up no evidence for them practicing as hard as before while Chinese players themselves explicitly state that "Chinese teams aren't as motivated as before," "don't care," "aren't practicing". Do you actually think they'd use these as excuses? Because they are very poor excuses - which is why the Chinese community, from all the reports, is angry at their teams. Excuses don't make you look worse, and that is what makes the Chinese players' statements easy to believe - because it makes them look worse than had they just said, "we're losing because the new changes to the game doesn't work for our style," else made up another excuse that puts the blame on others.
Also, the way in which you learn how to play with new changes is through practice. It doesn't just come to you. This fact again supports the idea that the Chinese teams lack practice.
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
That's evidence enough.
That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
That's evidence enough.
That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.
No it isn't. You do understand we're talking about twenty-five players here, in total? You understand also that these two players practice with all the other Chinese teams and know their players?
On March 05 2016 03:15 FuzzyJAM wrote: "Lack of new talent. Many analysts indicate that it's due to a lack of "genius" new talent such as Miracle, W33ha, etc"
Mind carrying on that "etc."? Who else is there except Matumba and Mind_Control?
Those four from this year alone aren't enough for you?
The idea that there's lots of new talent in the West doesn't really work. If you want to argue that "tier 1" pros are willing to work with pros from "tier 2" teams more. . .well, I still don't think that works either if you actually look at roster changes. But of course that claim is so vague as to be impossible to refute, so meh.
The West has actually been very successful with new talent in the last two years. Sumail, Arteezy, and PPD from 2014. The four above from 2015. And there are also new players in 2016 to look forward to. Not all new talent will be successful, but when they are successful, they raise the over all level of teams and of the region.
You can list seven new players in two years for the entire Western scene and think China has less?
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
That's evidence enough.
That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.
No it isn't. You do understand we're talking about twenty-five players here, in total? You understand also that these two players practice with all the other Chinese teams and know their players?
Yes, which is just two players perspectives on the region when it comes to one event. Last time I checked, OG got 3rd place. Which is where EG ends up some times. China as a whole had a bad event this time, but that doesn't mean much beyond that.
On March 05 2016 03:15 FuzzyJAM wrote: "Lack of new talent. Many analysts indicate that it's due to a lack of "genius" new talent such as Miracle, W33ha, etc"
Mind carrying on that "etc."? Who else is there except Matumba and Mind_Control?
Those four from this year alone aren't enough for you?
The idea that there's lots of new talent in the West doesn't really work. If you want to argue that "tier 1" pros are willing to work with pros from "tier 2" teams more. . .well, I still don't think that works either if you actually look at roster changes. But of course that claim is so vague as to be impossible to refute, so meh.
The West has actually been very successful with new talent in the last two years. Sumail, Arteezy, and PPD from 2014. The four above from 2015. And there are also new players in 2016 to look forward to. Not all new talent will be successful, but when they are successful, they raise the over all level of teams and of the region.
You can list seven new players in two years for the entire Western scene and think China has less?
kk.
Seven successful players. By the standard I'm using, China has only 1-2 successful players in the last two years - basically just Maybe and Eleven, as every one else they brought in suck.
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
That's evidence enough.
That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.
No it isn't. You do understand we're talking about twenty-five players here, in total? You understand also that these two players practice with all the other Chinese teams and know their players?
Yes, which is just two players perspectives on the region when it comes to one event. Last time I checked, OG got 3rd place. Which is where EG ends up some times. China as a whole had a bad event this time, but that doesn't mean much beyond that.
China has been having "bad events" for all of 2015-2016.
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
That's evidence enough.
That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.
No it isn't. You do understand we're talking about twenty-five players here, in total? You understand also that these two players practice with all the other Chinese teams and know their players?
Yes, which is just two players perspectives on the region when it comes to one event. Last time I checked, OG got 3rd place. Which is where EG ends up some times. China as a whole had a bad event this time, but that doesn't mean much beyond that.
China has been having "bad events" for all of 2015-2016.
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
That's evidence enough.
That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.
No it isn't. You do understand we're talking about twenty-five players here, in total? You understand also that these two players practice with all the other Chinese teams and know their players?
Yes, which is just two players perspectives on the region when it comes to one event. Last time I checked, OG got 3rd place. Which is where EG ends up some times. China as a whole had a bad event this time, but that doesn't mean much beyond that.
China has been having "bad events" for all of 2015-2016.
2nd place at the international is bad?
How about losing twelve straight tournaments? Does that "not mean much?" I think I did this math before - they had a 9% win rate on international tournaments from 2015-2016.
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
That's evidence enough.
That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.
No it isn't. You do understand we're talking about twenty-five players here, in total? You understand also that these two players practice with all the other Chinese teams and know their players?
Yes, which is just two players perspectives on the region when it comes to one event. Last time I checked, OG got 3rd place. Which is where EG ends up some times. China as a whole had a bad event this time, but that doesn't mean much beyond that.
China has been having "bad events" for all of 2015-2016.
2nd place at the international is bad?
How about losing twelve straight tournaments? Does that "not mean much?" I think I did this math before - they had a 9% win rate on international tournaments from 2015-2016.
How is making it the finals of the international bad by any metric? The finals means the best two teams. And as PPD said, anyone in the top 4 of any event could take the whole thing.
On March 05 2016 04:25 Plansix wrote: You really haven't provided much evidence either, beyond claiming one player said they were not practicing. Maybe 2, but I think its just one player.
Two at the minimum, and they weren't just talking about themselves. They were talking about all Chinese teams.
That's evidence enough.
That two players could have heard the same thing? Your sample size sucks and is LOADED with confirmation bias.
No it isn't. You do understand we're talking about twenty-five players here, in total? You understand also that these two players practice with all the other Chinese teams and know their players?
Yes, which is just two players perspectives on the region when it comes to one event. Last time I checked, OG got 3rd place. Which is where EG ends up some times. China as a whole had a bad event this time, but that doesn't mean much beyond that.
China has been having "bad events" for all of 2015-2016.
2nd place at the international is bad?
How about losing twelve straight tournaments? Does that "not mean much?" I think I did this math before - they had a 9% win rate on international tournaments from 2015-2016.
How is making it the finals of the international bad by any metric? The finals means the best two teams. And as PPD said, anyone in the top 4 of any event could take the whole thing.
That's one tournament. Are you going to ignore every other tournament? Don't forget - they didn't even reach the finals of the two recent three million dollar tournaments.
Woops, I keep mistaking OG for a chinese team for some reason.
So that being aid and the metric for failure being no team in the top 4. Can you prove China had no teams in the top 4 for the majority of events in 2015?(note: events with no or one chinese team should be ignored)
On March 05 2016 05:23 Plansix wrote: Woops, I keep mistaking OG for a chinese team for some reason.
So that being aid and the metric for failure being no team in the top 4. Can you prove China had no teams in the top 4 for the majority of events in 2015?(note: events with no or one chinese team should be ignored)
No, but given that many of those events had a lot less than 16 teams, and were missing several of the top Western teams, it hardly matters that they placed in the top 4 of them. Just the fact that they failed to win even a single one shows that they were a failure in 2015, and this becomes a lot easier to see when you go into the 16 team tournaments with all the top Western teams.
melonzz 61 points 19 hours ago "I banned dark seer and enchantress because after studying all of LGD's games at this event I couldn't find any other heroes rotk played well.
There are certainly cultural differences between the West and the East, but the first rule of leadership is to accept more than your share of the blame and less than your share of the credit."
melonzz 39 points 18 hours ago* "It's insulting for someone so obviously half-assing it to claim he's working as hard as I do, as hard as HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS of other players are. WE tried REALLY REALLY FUCKING HARD to get this far, and we're STILL not good enough. In 2013 you could phone it in and still place top 3 in tournaments, it's no longer possible. EG are all some of the best players in the world, but the reason they've been so incredibly consistent is because they never stopped working hard. If you don't show up to the opening ceremony in your own fucking country you have no right to tell anyone that you cared enough."
I think Azarkon is panicking because if China dota dies there is nothing left to do.
But seriously, there's definitely issues in chinese dota. Even most of the 'newcomers' like Maybe/CTY/Fy/Fenrir/etc were people who played a ton of dota1 with established names like PIS. I don't think there's any REAL new blood in chinese dota. They got to where they are/were via connections.
I think only the original CDEC was like a team with randoms(basically maybe's friends, the stack he pubbed with)+Maybe, and they improved a lot. Basically going from nothing to a decent tier2 team, after Maybe left I guess they were even more motivated. Idk why they suck now.
Since the teams won't play each other. Why not have a team a and b setup (seems a few do from the names)? That way they can keep strats secret and have honest discussions about the games.
On March 05 2016 09:26 Andre wrote: I think Azarkon is panicking because if China dota dies there is nothing left to do.
But seriously, there's definitely issues in chinese dota. Even most of the 'newcomers' like Maybe/CTY/Fy/Fenrir/etc were people who played a ton of dota1 with established names like PIS. I don't think there's any REAL new blood in chinese dota. They got to where they are/were via connections.
I think only the original CDEC was like a team with randoms(basically maybe's friends, the stack he pubbed with)+Maybe, and they improved a lot. Basically going from nothing to a decent tier2 team, after Maybe left I guess they were even more motivated. Idk why they suck now.
CDEC wasn't really random, Xz and Agressif have both being playing on other tier 2 teams and both dota 1 veterans.
Maybe was completely new but basically he got benched at the start of his career so he can finish high school or something.
I do think that some of the old burdens need to retire, for example burning, despite his reputation, he hasn't won a TI and let's be honest here, he's being given all the supports and opportunities the Chinese scene has to offer.
They even build a DK team with the best Asia has to offer and he still couldn't do it. This guy is just not TI material.
ROTK also needs to GTFO.
If I were the managers of Chinese teams I'd fired everyone and start fresh, use only new players that are hungry for results. It might take a year of losing or years but you would get there eventually.
i understand that you, "azarkon", are really invested into the overall game and post very regularly. instead of say, quoting results across different games across different periods of time, maybe it's time to shed the facade, and come out to say you're racially biased against Chinese. you're all about sharing truths right? whatever you get out of all that, anyway. i sincerely hope you've realized the differences time and time again. If i were you, i'd go as far as to check and read up my own post history, but i am not you and we hold different values, very obviously.
in person, i'd call you a racist. and i've never felt the need to do that to anyone before. online, i think it's bleeding edge racial bias since it's based around a game instead of anything else that could be used as an obnoxious comparison. the anonymity of the internet allows people to do stuff like this, and frankly i view it was a form of bullying more than it is a side of sports fandom.
in my opinion, it's a team of gamers first and foremost. i don't really need to say much else about the surrounding scene because it's supposed to be awesome and thriving. i just do not want to post or even thinking about reading your bait because it is a beaten-dead story about azarkon vs. China, or azarkon vs. something else he has his eyes on. and because of that small detail while so much else is going on, that's plenty enough to deter someone like me from this sub-community of teamliquid.
On March 05 2016 09:26 Andre wrote: I think Azarkon is panicking because if China dota dies there is nothing left to do.
But seriously, there's definitely issues in chinese dota. Even most of the 'newcomers' like Maybe/CTY/Fy/Fenrir/etc were people who played a ton of dota1 with established names like PIS. I don't think there's any REAL new blood in chinese dota. They got to where they are/were via connections.
I think only the original CDEC was like a team with randoms(basically maybe's friends, the stack he pubbed with)+Maybe, and they improved a lot. Basically going from nothing to a decent tier2 team, after Maybe left I guess they were even more motivated. Idk why they suck now.
CDEC wasn't really random, Xz and Agressif have both being playing on other tier 2 teams and both dota 1 veterans.
Maybe was completely new but basically he got benched at the start of his career so he can finish high school or something.
I do think that some of the old burdens need to retire, for example burning, despite his reputation, he hasn't won a TI and let's be honest here, he's being given all the supports and opportunities the Chinese scene has to offer.
They even build a DK team with the best Asia has to offer and he still couldn't do it. This guy is just not TI material.
ROTK also needs to GTFO.
If I were the managers of Chinese teams I'd fired everyone and start fresh, use only new players that are hungry for results. It might take a year of losing or years but you would get there eventually.
I love how a disgusting slick of shit like you deems it necessary for someone to quit because you think them unworthy. This argument is disgusting and needs to be called out every time it's used. You really think that Burning and Rotk need to leave the scene because they're "washed up"? They should decide that, not a wannabe-pimp like you. You're obviously not TI material, maybe you should stop playing Dota. In fact, we should all stop playing and circle jerking Dota cause many of us will never win a TI. I get sick to my stomach when I see this kind of attitude, I'll be honest it makes me lose respect for the fuckwads who spew it. Go fuck yourself rage-kid before I slit your throat.
User was temp banned for this post.
rofl what the fuck
some one is mad
did the demographic of TL changed so much these days we get random kids raging all the time.
I think the veteran Chinese teams need to recruit one of the 8k or near 8k Chinese players. Looking at the Chinese leaderboards, it seems there's a few such players on young teams. I want to see a Chinese 8k player guided by veteran leadership properly. I know June played in iG and Newbee but that didn't seem to work out. I still think it's the right idea for veteran teams to try out people on the top of the ladder though. It needs to be executed correctly though.
I think June got shafted really bad by going to iG then subsequently to Newbee, both teams are made up of expensive veterans with no real incentive or structures in place to train new players but instead desperate wants results.
He should've applied to LGD or a tier 2 team to train a year or two because he's obviously not ready for the big stage. He needs a mentor who can set him in for the pro meta and game flow, kinda like what ROTK did for ehome when ehome was new.
People say he's bad but you can tell he's playing the game with different ideas to everyone else, he has his own approach to the game which got him very far on the mmr but then he kinda got a break when black carried CIS into TI... which was good results wise but did not contribute to his development.
I think he has potential but he needs to play on a team that is willing to accept him and his failures, not the likes of iG or newbee which only wants results.
He has potential because I think he actually think of his own way to approach the game, unlike some pro players in China which pretty much rely and grind on a few heroes to win.
Also he's an offliner which is probably the most difficult position to play and easy for people to hate and honestly he just doesn't have the experience to exceed at this level right now but his playstyle certainly is a right fit.
On March 05 2016 09:26 Andre wrote: I think Azarkon is panicking because if China dota dies there is nothing left to do.
But seriously, there's definitely issues in chinese dota. Even most of the 'newcomers' like Maybe/CTY/Fy/Fenrir/etc were people who played a ton of dota1 with established names like PIS. I don't think there's any REAL new blood in chinese dota. They got to where they are/were via connections.
I think only the original CDEC was like a team with randoms(basically maybe's friends, the stack he pubbed with)+Maybe, and they improved a lot. Basically going from nothing to a decent tier2 team, after Maybe left I guess they were even more motivated. Idk why they suck now.
CDEC wasn't really random, Xz and Agressif have both being playing on other tier 2 teams and both dota 1 veterans.
Maybe was completely new but basically he got benched at the start of his career so he can finish high school or something.
I do think that some of the old burdens need to retire, for example burning, despite his reputation, he hasn't won a TI and let's be honest here, he's being given all the supports and opportunities the Chinese scene has to offer.
They even build a DK team with the best Asia has to offer and he still couldn't do it. This guy is just not TI material.
ROTK also needs to GTFO.
If I were the managers of Chinese teams I'd fired everyone and start fresh, use only new players that are hungry for results. It might take a year of losing or years but you would get there eventually.
I love how a disgusting slick of shit like you deems it necessary for someone to quit because you think them unworthy. This argument is disgusting and needs to be called out every time it's used. You really think that Burning and Rotk need to leave the scene because they're "washed up"? They should decide that, not a wannabe-pimp like you. You're obviously not TI material, maybe you should stop playing Dota. In fact, we should all stop playing and circle jerking Dota cause many of us will never win a TI. I get sick to my stomach when I see this kind of attitude, I'll be honest it makes me lose respect for the fuckwads who spew it. Go fuck yourself rage-kid before I slit your throat.
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rofl what the fuck
some one is mad
did the demographic of TL changed so much these days we get random kids raging all the time.
reminder laertes is the guy who claims to be a chess IM and that "mistakes he makes when he's emotional" are the only thing holding him back. and the guy who bought a 5k account to try and prove that elo hell was real. and the guy who can't piss in a toilet. just check out his blogs on this site
On March 06 2016 14:56 haduken wrote: rofl what the fuck
some one is mad
did the demographic of TL changed so much these days we get random kids raging all the time.
He might not have expressed himself in the best way possible, but I wholeheartedly agree with his opinion. I find it absolutely distasteful when people suggest players should retire just because they are not recently winning tourmanets. Yeah maybe if they are injured and there's a risk to their health then it's appropriate. Look at Jaromir Jagr in the NHL, the guy is 44 and point leader for his team. Do you know how many times have people like you said he should retire and that he is washed up? Someone is playing bad, or not according to expectations, doesn't equal to he should gtfo and retire. Burning is a bloody legend, and an amazing dota player. His mechanics are excellent and so is his game sense. He is capable of playing a faster carry style, maybe he isn't as good as some of the newer carries like Arteezy at doing it, but so what? If the Chinese teams were willing to take risks and use younger players instead of the old guard, they should do so, but they don't. Is that a mistake? Maybe. Is it Burning's fault? No. Hell, there's plenty of chinese farm teams, and tier 2 teams younger players can form their own teams. While Laertes' language is inappropriate, the response that a team should disband and players retire after a bad performance is also inappropriate in my book.
It is really strange. Sometimes Azarkon seems perfectly logical and well-mannered and thoughtful. And sometimes he says that
China has been having "bad events" for all of 2015-2016."
which, considering TI5 or the last big event before Shanghai, is kinda riddiculous. Or he starts to use the term "winning a tournament" in regional contest, as in West or East won a tournament if they got 1st place, which doesn't honestly make sense (if a tournament had 1st place West and 2nd-5th East, then counting it as a Wester win is strange).
well thats azarkon for you. he doesnt really want to test a hypothesis or anything, he just want to bash china.
if we just look at the results from ti2 to ti5 we see that the structure in the east-west comparision never really changed. there were always 1 or 2 strong western teams that could go toe to toe with everything china had to offer. navi ti2, navi/alliance ti3, eg/alliance ti4, eg/secret ti5. not meaning the internationals alone, but the whole season for anyone wanting to point out alliance ti4 performance. but the gap between those t1 western teams and the rest of the pack was always higher than the gap between the top ~5 chinese teams. this has definately changed in the post ti5 era but its a new thing.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XzApK2b.png)
