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Active: 25917 users

New LotV Guide for ZvP -- Editing Phase

Blogs > TangSC
Post a Reply
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-04 17:42:59
January 03 2016 16:45 GMT
#1
NOTE: This guide is in its editing phase. Please comment with any feedback, edits, and suggestions! Thanks!!

[image loading]

Introduction --

+ Show Spoiler +
Hello and Happy New Years everyone, I appreciate you checking out this guide.

The bridge between all-in and macro is shorter than you think. Both styles require you to develop essential skills and mechanics. Both styles require you to incorporate a high level of structure and precision with your build. Both styles require you to have fundamental understanding of both your own strategy and your opponent's. The only difference between a macro player and an all-in player is the way that they approach the game.

There is nothing wrong with the notion that playing macro Zerg is an effective way to improve at SC2; but there is a tremendous deal wrong with believing that playing macro is best or only way to improve. It is essential to explore a wide range of styles, because there is a lot of value to variety.

Too often the term "all-in" is cast about in a negative light. People wrongly claim that all-in styles are not effective for improving overall mechanics and skill. But I'm convinced that if more players embraced the style and mindset of an all-in aggressive player, they would find the edge that they're looking for.


Overview --

+ Show Spoiler +
ZvP Tutorial 1: All-In Aggression (Overview)

This guide will outline an early “all-in” attack, designed to end the game outright:

~4:15 | 8 Roaches and 24 Speedlings arrive at opponent's expansion.

[image loading]

**NOTE: This timing does not work well on maps with in-base expansions like Orbital Shipyard and Dusk Towers. It is ideal for maps that have large expansion ramps (Prion Terraces, Ruins of Seras, Lerilak Crest, Ulrena, and Central Protocol are all viable).

Also, the defensive power of the Mothership Core needs to be highly respected in the current meta. Executing this style effectively revolves around baiting Overcharges and sniping Pylons. With proper execution, this style is effective in the current meta, and will only get stronger if the Mothership Core's defensive abilities are nerfed (please??).

Let me be clear. This attack is meant to win the game; in an ideal scenario you will not have to worry about transitioning. However, I believe that no all-in is truly complete without another follow-up all-in.

Thus, this "all-in" will actually have three phases:

1) Build and Pressure

[image loading]

This section will list the full recommended build order, as well as explain how preliminary Zergling pressure can soften your opponent for the real attack.

2) Attack and Cripple

[image loading]

This section will explain the execution of the attack itself: when to arrive, what to target, and how to deal game-ending damage.

3) Transition and Finish

[image loading]

This section will list the transitioning steps in the event that your opponent survives your attack, and you need a quick follow-up all-in.

There are also two reference sections called Replays and Tutorials.


Build and Pressure --

+ Show Spoiler +
13 Overlord
17 Hatchery (0:53~)
18 Gas (1:05~)
17 Pool (1:15~)
19 Overlord (1:40~)
19 Lingsx3 (6 total / 2:00~)
22 Queenx2 (2:05~)
26 Lings Speed (2:10~ -- Remain in gas)
26-31 Lings

So these initial Zerglings that you build are the most precious things in the world, and how you manage them will largely determine whether you win the game. First off, you can deny the Probe scout easily, and hopefully prevent the Protoss from scouting your Roach Warren. Also, you can immediately pressure your opponent's expansion (as early as 2:45). Your real goal is not to do any kind of damage -- but if you can kill a Pylon or Probe by all means! The main purpose of the early Zerglings is to bait Photon Overcharge, then just run away. Bait Overcharge. Run away. Don't lose Zerglings. You keep your opponent in the dark while softening them up for the real attack.

31 Roach Warren (2:40~)
30 Overlordx2
30-46 Roachesx8 (3:30~ -- Remove from gas)
46-52 Speedlingsx12 (3:55~)
52 Overlord + Flood Zerglings (or Transition)

~4:15 | 8 Roaches and 24 Speedlings arrive at opponent's expansion


Attack and Cripple --

+ Show Spoiler +
The primary target when engaging is your opponent's pylons.

[image loading]

In addition to eliminating supply and de-powering cannons and gateways, Pylons are especially valuable targets because they are now incredibly potent defensive tools. That's why we talked about baiting the Overcharge energy from the Mothership Core, the fewer Overcharges the more damage your Roach-Ling will do.

A Photon-Overcharged Pylon does approximately 32-33 damage per second to Roaches and Zerglings. Comparatively, Adepts do approximately 6 damage per second to a Roach and 14 damage per second to a Zergling. Do not make the mistake of ignoring a newly-cast photon-overcharged Pylon! It lasts for 11 seconds and will chew through your units. Either focus it down quickly, or avoid it entirely.

Photon Overcharge currently only costs 25 energy, which means most times your opponent will be able to cast at least 2-6 Overcharges by 4:15. That is why your initial Zergling pressure is so important – you can easily force a few Overcharges even though you do not plan on engaging. Then when your Roaches arrives, the Mothership Core will have less energy and you can quickly focus-fire the remaining Pylons.

If possible, always position in such a way that all 8 of your Roaches can attack a single Pylon. Hotkey your Roaches and Zerglings on separate control groups so that you can execute this type of micro more efficiently. It takes about four volleys of your Roaches (less if Zerglings are helping out) to kill a Pylon. Take them out quickly with focus fire, and your Roach-Ling will overwhelm the Protoss base. If you're not able to get the jump on a Pylon before the Overcharge, you may disengage it (move out of the Pylon's range) and prioritize other essential structures: Cybernetics Core, Expansion Nexus, Other Pylons, Other tech (Robo/Sg).

Most Protoss will not use their Probes as part of the defense; but if they do, you absolutely can trade Roach-Ling for Probes. It'll be a one-sided fight. You can also target units like Sentries/Stalkers/Zealots/Adepts, as they will drop quickly in small numbers.

It is important to distinguish between when it is correct for your units to be move-commanding, attack-moving, and hold-positioning. These are largely the three commands you will be issuing: either you'll right-click a target, or you'll A-Move towards your opponent's workers/units, or you'll hold position (usually out of Photon Overcharge range ). How you use these three commands really depends on the situation, but it's important to be aware

What you don't want to do is chase his Probes or units around while he has Pylons up and Gateways warping in. Prioritize Pylons, and render the Gateways and Mothership Core the way they should be: useless. That is how you do game-ending damage.

However, there will be some situations where it is incorrect to push up into your opponent's main base. You will ALWAYS be able to push into the expansion aggressively (it is too early for them to deny you); but you won't always be able to move up the ramp into his main. In that scenario, it is actually correct to focus down the expansion Nexus and transition, rather than risk a cost-inefficient trade up a narrow ramp. A one-base Protoss is essentially crippled, and they will have to either slowly retake his expansion, or do a desperate 1-base all-in.


Transition and Finish --

+ Show Spoiler +
If you execute your Roach-Ling attack and you are unable to either a) kill his expansion hatchery or b) cripple his economy and infrastructure, then you have probably already lost. That is the nature of an all-in; no qualms about it. The attack is a significant investment for you, since you will be very behind in terms of tech and still without a third base. But if you're able to destroy a Nexus and/or the majority of his infrastructure/Probes, then you're in great shape and you can even transition into a longer game.

In theory you could transition however you’d like, however I recommend some variation of a 2-base 3-4 gas follow-up -- Roach-Queen-Nydus or Speed Roach-Ravager or Hydra-Ling-Roach. Not too greedy, something like starting unit production at 40-44 Drones. That way you can either defend a counter all-in or attack again yourself.

If you play too economical/passive after the first attack, you risk losing the game or at least your advantage in it. Too many players make the mistake of executing early pressure, then droning to full three-base saturation. It does not work that well in LotV because your main mines out quickly so you end up actually needing to take a fourth to sustain 60+ workers. Plus your opponent is very likely to attack you again while you're droning for such a long period. Unless you have a very clear read on your opponent and feel comfortable playing 3-4 base macro against it, I would recommend a more short-term solution .

Here is an example of an effective transition (2 Base / 40 Drones / Roach-Queen-Nydus):

At 4:15 you engage with your Roach-Ling, and you will probably continue building Zerglings after that point. Let us assume that around 5:00 you destroy your opponent’s expansion Nexus but you can't end the game. The first thing you do is start droning your expansion and producing a Queen; you do not have the economy to immediately take gases or a lair. You should almost always have a stage of heavy droning:

[image loading]

The first step should be to get a minimum of 38 Drones in the mid-game to saturate 2 mineral fields (32) with 2 gas (6). With that benchmark in mind, you'll probably refill the first gas pretty quickly, and start the second gas and Lair around the time you're reaching 16 on the minerals at both main and natural. Eventually, you'll have enough Drones to take the last 2 gases without compromising your 2-base mineral economy.

[image loading]

Contrary to economic theory from HotS, you do not always need to fully saturate your main (16). You definitely want to do it in the early stages; but by around 5:30/6:00, half of your mineral patches in the main will be getting low. One way to adapt to this change in LotV is to keep 12 Drones mining in the main instead of 16 -- that way you are only single-mining the far back patches which will preserve them a little longer. This tactic helps to balance your economy, especially when you’ve already been on one base for so long.

[image loading]

Once you hit 40 Drones, you have the perfect 2-base economy for this stage in the game: 12 Drones mining minerals in the main; 16 Drones mining minerals at the expansion; 12 Drones mining gas from the 4 extractors (total 40). Perfect! It works out to about 1,100 minerals and 450 gas per minute, which allows you to afford a nice-sized mid-game army.

[image loading]

At this point, start your Nydus, switch back into Roach production and mass Queens from both hatcheries. You should have about 6 Queens minimum when the Lair finishes, and should continue producing them until you win. Load up your Nydus with Queens then Roaches, and plop the Nydus in the Protoss main. Transfuse the Nydus, spread creep and engage relentlessly!

[image loading]


Replays --

+ Show Spoiler +
The six-replay pack can be downloaded here.


Tutorials --

+ Show Spoiler +
These tutorials feature my own games played at the top master/GM opponents on NA and EU servers, because frankly that's all I have, but as soon as Snute sends me some replays I promise to do analysis of that!

ZvP Tutorial 1: All-In Aggression (Hatch-First with Nydus Transition)

ZvP Tutorial 2: All-In Aggression (Pool-First No Transition)

ZvP Tutorial 3: All-In Aggression (Pool-First into "Macro" version with Mutalisk Transition)


All-In Academy --

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

This guide was written, edited, and produced by All-In Academy SC2 Coaches


TangStarcraft--

+ Show Spoiler +
Thank you all very much for checking out this guide. For those who don't know me, my name is Tim Clark (Aka Tang) and I've been a Canadian StarCraft II player, writer, and coach since July 27, 2010 (well actually I've been Canadian since 1989 ).

I have always enjoyed producing content and I find it very rewarding. I learn a ton about SC2 from writing these guides, and then I learn a ton about writing from community feedback! It's win-win.

If you want to support me and what I do, please check out TangStarcraft and The All-In Academy.

Cheers,

Tim


Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
guitarizt
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1492 Posts
January 03 2016 21:17 GMT
#2
Great guide! I'll try this on ladder and see how it goes.
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” - Hemingway
A_needle_jog
Profile Blog Joined December 2015
Korea (South)699 Posts
January 03 2016 21:52 GMT
#3
Lots of work you put in there. good stuff thanks mate
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/3949980/1/llllllllllll/
aRyuujin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5049 Posts
January 04 2016 04:55 GMT
#4
just a question, not trying to judge- have you ever made a macro guide?
can i get my estro logo back pls
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
January 04 2016 09:27 GMT
#5
On January 04 2016 13:55 aRyuujin wrote:
just a question, not trying to judge- have you ever made a macro guide?


I second this. While well written and comprehensive, I would love to see a guide which drives all the way to the mid and even late game.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
MapleLeafSirup
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany950 Posts
January 04 2016 12:55 GMT
#6
I feel like it is almost impossible to write a lategame guide for LOTV. Even at the highest level, people still seem a little clueless about what to do in lategame situations. It is clearly visible, that their play is far from well-rounded and players still often get completely crushed by compositions they had not expected.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-04 13:17:58
January 04 2016 13:16 GMT
#7
On January 04 2016 13:55 aRyuujin wrote:
just a question, not trying to judge- have you ever made a macro guide?

Haha, it's a very fair point. There's a few reasons I tend to shy away from macro guides. First of all, from a writing perspective they're longer and in some ways more difficult, the build has to be longer and also have deviations for different timings your opponent can do, then there have to be sections on scouting/reacting, etc. So I think writing a macro guide is a bit more challenging in that regard. But the main reason is that I don't really play standard macro styles myself, so I have trouble coming up with the appropriate replays/tutorials for such a guide. Hive tech late-game is far from my comfort zone in SC2; in fact I avoid those stages whenever possible. But the day may come.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
A_needle_jog
Profile Blog Joined December 2015
Korea (South)699 Posts
January 07 2016 22:18 GMT
#8
If you have time can you look at certain special Protoss strategy. With Phoenix. Look at Zerg need help thread there I posted

I find no answer, you look like dedication-person !
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/3949980/1/llllllllllll/
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-08 00:38:54
January 08 2016 00:29 GMT
#9
On January 08 2016 07:18 A_needle_jog wrote:
If you have time can you look at certain special Protoss strategy. With Phoenix. Look at Zerg need help thread there I posted

I find no answer, you look like dedication-person !

Against a Protoss who opens 1-base Phoenix and then expands and keeps making Phoenix? I would personally try defensive 3 base Queen-Hydra-Corruptor-Ling OR 2 base Queen-Roach-Nydus all-in if you're lucky enough to hide an Overlord.

I feel like as long as you identify that he's going Phoenix, you should be able to survive early on with 1 Spore per base if you place it in the middle of your mineral line and save your Overlords/Queens, and just power your economy very hard. You should be able to reach 40+ workers wayyy before Protoss. So that's the first thing you want to do is check the replays and see whether you're reaching 40 workers at a reasonable time, or whether Protoss is somehow pulling ahead economically early on. It might be that you're losing too many Overlords/Drones/Queens to his early pressure. Going up to 5-6 Queens before the Lair might help.

Anyway once you reach hit about 44+ workers, then you can add another Spore per base (just to keep your Drones/Queens/Overlords extra safe), while getting a fairly quick Lair and 4 gas for Hydras and Spire, and make about 16-20 Hydralisks (which should be grouped defensively with your Queens/Spores so they don't get picked off) then 12-14 Corruptors. Once you have both Hydras and Corruptors, mass phoenix melts pretty fast. You can either be very aggressive with Hydra-Ling-Corruptor, or play it defensively and tech to late game Hive/Vipers/Ultra/Queens/Corruptor/Broodlord.

If you're dying to Phoenix/Adept, then you definitely want Queens added in with your Hydras.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
A_needle_jog
Profile Blog Joined December 2015
Korea (South)699 Posts
January 08 2016 01:57 GMT
#10
On January 08 2016 09:29 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 08 2016 07:18 A_needle_jog wrote:
If you have time can you look at certain special Protoss strategy. With Phoenix. Look at Zerg need help thread there I posted

I find no answer, you look like dedication-person !

Against a Protoss who opens 1-base Phoenix and then expands and keeps making Phoenix? I would personally try defensive 3 base Queen-Hydra-Corruptor-Ling OR 2 base Queen-Roach-Nydus all-in if you're lucky enough to hide an Overlord.

I feel like as long as you identify that he's going Phoenix, you should be able to survive early on with 1 Spore per base if you place it in the middle of your mineral line and save your Overlords/Queens, and just power your economy very hard. You should be able to reach 40+ workers wayyy before Protoss. So that's the first thing you want to do is check the replays and see whether you're reaching 40 workers at a reasonable time, or whether Protoss is somehow pulling ahead economically early on. It might be that you're losing too many Overlords/Drones/Queens to his early pressure. Going up to 5-6 Queens before the Lair might help.

Anyway once you reach hit about 44+ workers, then you can add another Spore per base (just to keep your Drones/Queens/Overlords extra safe), while getting a fairly quick Lair and 4 gas for Hydras and Spire, and make about 16-20 Hydralisks (which should be grouped defensively with your Queens/Spores so they don't get picked off) then 12-14 Corruptors. Once you have both Hydras and Corruptors, mass phoenix melts pretty fast. You can either be very aggressive with Hydra-Ling-Corruptor, or play it defensively and tech to late game Hive/Vipers/Ultra/Queens/Corruptor/Broodlord.

If you're dying to Phoenix/Adept, then you definitely want Queens added in with your Hydras.



Do you think it is wise to add 1-2 macro hatches and take less gas or gas later. I am frustrated

I am sooooooo bad against phoenix play
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/3949980/1/llllllllllll/
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
January 08 2016 04:18 GMT
#11
On January 08 2016 10:57 A_needle_jog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 08 2016 09:29 TangSC wrote:
On January 08 2016 07:18 A_needle_jog wrote:
If you have time can you look at certain special Protoss strategy. With Phoenix. Look at Zerg need help thread there I posted

I find no answer, you look like dedication-person !

Against a Protoss who opens 1-base Phoenix and then expands and keeps making Phoenix? I would personally try defensive 3 base Queen-Hydra-Corruptor-Ling OR 2 base Queen-Roach-Nydus all-in if you're lucky enough to hide an Overlord.

I feel like as long as you identify that he's going Phoenix, you should be able to survive early on with 1 Spore per base if you place it in the middle of your mineral line and save your Overlords/Queens, and just power your economy very hard. You should be able to reach 40+ workers wayyy before Protoss. So that's the first thing you want to do is check the replays and see whether you're reaching 40 workers at a reasonable time, or whether Protoss is somehow pulling ahead economically early on. It might be that you're losing too many Overlords/Drones/Queens to his early pressure. Going up to 5-6 Queens before the Lair might help.

Anyway once you reach hit about 44+ workers, then you can add another Spore per base (just to keep your Drones/Queens/Overlords extra safe), while getting a fairly quick Lair and 4 gas for Hydras and Spire, and make about 16-20 Hydralisks (which should be grouped defensively with your Queens/Spores so they don't get picked off) then 12-14 Corruptors. Once you have both Hydras and Corruptors, mass phoenix melts pretty fast. You can either be very aggressive with Hydra-Ling-Corruptor, or play it defensively and tech to late game Hive/Vipers/Ultra/Queens/Corruptor/Broodlord.

If you're dying to Phoenix/Adept, then you definitely want Queens added in with your Hydras.



Do you think it is wise to add 1-2 macro hatches and take less gas or gas later. I am frustrated

I am sooooooo bad against phoenix play

No, I think the money can be better spent on Queens/Hydras/Spores/Overlords/Drones.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
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