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On October 07 2015 12:46 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 11:26 feanaro wrote:
A couple questions: why is the focus exclusively on the GSL? Why not factor in the OSL and the SSL? I honestly don't see that much difference between them, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Not exclusive - you'll find stats in the OP for both how many KR finals any player attended, total, and how many unique KR events they won. Also the racial stats take every KR event into account. But I do focus on the GSL, mostly for psychological reasons. That's the most prestigious tournament. It stands to reason that players will feel more pressure to perform there than in any other league, and will do everything in their power to bring their A game. Consequently, I feel that makes the GSL results the most meaningful. To illustrate crudely: if we took all Koreans, put guns to their heads, and said "win or die," who would win? Probably those who won GSL. I think in the future the SSL may become as important. It just needs time to build some tradition. Let me know if you find this a compelling rationale or not. 
It just seems weird that the tournaments would have similar formats, almost identical player bases, and yet one is significantly more important that the other. I guess the GSL has a higher prize pool, but it still seems odd. It also screws Maru over pretty hard since he has 2 starleague titles, but neither are GSLs. It might also skew some of your stats regarding which races have the most titles and slots at finals. In particular, in makes INnoVation look good (maybe too good?) because it ignores Maru's dual titles and Dream's dual finals appearances to make him the sole terran representative.
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On October 07 2015 13:01 feanaro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 12:46 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 07 2015 11:26 feanaro wrote:
A couple questions: why is the focus exclusively on the GSL? Why not factor in the OSL and the SSL? I honestly don't see that much difference between them, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Not exclusive - you'll find stats in the OP for both how many KR finals any player attended, total, and how many unique KR events they won. Also the racial stats take every KR event into account. But I do focus on the GSL, mostly for psychological reasons. That's the most prestigious tournament. It stands to reason that players will feel more pressure to perform there than in any other league, and will do everything in their power to bring their A game. Consequently, I feel that makes the GSL results the most meaningful. To illustrate crudely: if we took all Koreans, put guns to their heads, and said "win or die," who would win? Probably those who won GSL. I think in the future the SSL may become as important. It just needs time to build some tradition. Let me know if you find this a compelling rationale or not. It just seems weird that the tournaments would have similar formats, almost identical player bases, and yet one is significantly more important that the other. I guess the GSL has a higher prize pool, but it still seems odd. It also screws Maru over pretty hard since he has 2 starleague titles, but neither are GSLs.
That doesn't screw Maru over at all. :D What screws Maru over is that I didn't pick him as a contender at all, and didn't look into his stats whatsoever. D:
Full disclosure: I wrote up an explanation of why I don't think Maru would have racked up enough points to change my mind, then I thought, the world's been unfair enough to Maru already what with Blizzcon 2014... and the rest of 2014... Why don't I actually do the work and see what treating the SSL and OSL as totally equal to GSL gives us?
And then I realized that the SSL, like the GSL Global Tournament or the WCS Season Finals, has no Ro32. You just can't compare a result in a tournament with Ro32 against a tournament with no Ro32. There's no way.
Still, let's say we count the OSL as a GSL. That gives Maru the incredible GSL consistency rating of 10.32 (INno gets a 14.2), but winning an SSL, just like INnoVation winning 2013 WCS finals s1, is not as impressive because they didn't have to get through as many opponents. So if we count OSL, Maru is still at only 1 "GSL or GSL equivalent" while INNo is at 2. Maru has "1.5" finals appearances, while INno has "3.5."
So based on numbers alone, I don't see that Maru beats INno. As far as the intangible stuff goes, I think they're pretty evenly matched. Both great in TvT and another MU, both eventually overcame their struggles in the third MU to become competent at a championship level. Both started as fairly one-dimensional players (INno macro, Maru cheesy) but totally outgrew those labels. INno's weakness as a human in a booth playing a game was his tendency to get flustered and totally shut down when shit got chaotic, but he outgrew that, too. Maru I feel is less ambitious, I don't think that he feels the need to be dominant against his competitors, to make them look like fools and make himself look like a god among men. Furthermore, I think this hurts him competitively. But I'm not gonna give INno an edge based on some armchair psych.
Maybe if Lilbow destroys Life and then destroys Zest who destroyed INnoVation, and Maru godmodes Blizzcon, that combined with Maru's consistency will be enough to push him over the edge? Maaybe. I'll gladly give Maru the edge over any other player with a similar number of tournament wins and finals appearances - by a mile - but we're comparing him to INno, and at that point you just have to start winning championships.
Still, I'm glad I crunched the numbers on Maru. I hope you enjoyed the read, if not the conclusion. 
It might also skew some of your stats regarding which races have the most titles and slots at finals. In particular, in makes INnoVation look good (maybe too good?) because it ignores Maru's dual titles and Dream's dual finals appearances to make him the sole terran representative.
Well, immediately following that stat, I do note that 5 different Terran players made it to a Korean finals during HotS (INno, Maru, Dream, MMA, and Bomber) and that a Korean Terran was present in the finals of 10 events (of which INno's appearances account for 40%).
Still, I edited all of Maru's information into the OP where applicable, counting the OSL as a GSL equivalent tournament. The SSL counts only as a generic Korean tournament, same as INno's WCS finals, Life's Blizzcon, or Zest's GSLGC.
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Any post that contains the word "Taeja" is automatically irrelevant to the topic.
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On October 07 2015 20:59 opisska wrote:
Any post that contains the word "Taeja" is automatically irrelevant to the topic.
Seriously? Just because he didnt win in Korea? Yes he didnt do that, but can Korea Champs do what he has done? No fucking way
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There is no definitive to who is worthy because each player
Innovation Life Zest Soo Maru
mentioned by OP has had inconsistency through each year.
if this was question of skill it would be easy because there is assumption that skill level increases with time,
but question of greatness over HOTS period there is no one person/face who is most visible throughout years.
it is also telling that names such as classic, hero, sos, stats and gumiho are not mention.
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On October 08 2015 12:37 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 20:59 opisska wrote:
Any post that contains the word "Taeja" is automatically irrelevant to the topic. Seriously? Just because he didnt win in Korea? Yes he didnt do that, but can Korea Champs do what he has done? No fucking way
taeja was strong in beginning, but it has been long time since he has shown his ID.
this is question of consistent over time.
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I think you have to give it to  Bogus with his most recent win.
- Won 2/3 gsl finals he's been in (and came very close to a 3rd)
- Won an IEM
- Won a WCS Seasonal
- Consistently strong in just about every category of tournament, even in online qualifiers.
 Zest,  Life, Maru, herO, and perhaps sOs are the only real contenders left to take the throne at Blizzcon.
I like TaeJa but he doesn't belong here at all since he's been coasting through 2015 while everyone else mentioned has actually done something this year.
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On October 08 2015 12:37 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2015 20:59 opisska wrote:
Any post that contains the word "Taeja" is automatically irrelevant to the topic. Seriously? Just because he didnt win in Korea? Yes he didnt do that, but can Korea Champs do what he has done? No fucking way
Yes, exactly because of that. People (and by people, I mean first and foremst stuchiu, because he uses by far the most charactaers to do that) constantly arguing that foreign tournaments should be taken seriously is getting annoying. "Korea Champs" probably can't "do what he has done", because the year has only 365 days and the sacrifices they would have to do for that would probably have a negative effect on their Korean performance and they would no longer be "Korea Champs". However I strongly believe that if basically anyone who has been even mentioned in this thread focused on foreigner tournaments - that is prepared for the possible strong oponents in detail, took their time to travel in advance and be well rested etc.. they could win exactly as much as Taeja or even more. Just look at the IEM WCs: I don't think that's much of a coincidence that when $100k (or $68k) is on the line, it's suddenly not Taeja's day. And I really hate the argument of "look at how great Koreans this foreiger tourney had, it's like it was a Korean tourney" - if you look at Korean tourneys, you will see a lot of fluctuations in participants, because the real strength of Korea is the absurd depth of the pool of very good players and while the individual performances vary a lot, the overall level is somewhere completely different - as demonstrated for example by the sole fact that no foreigner has broken into a Korean league for years, while the coveted foreign "almost as Korean" tournaments see a foreigner run at least ftom time to time.
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On October 08 2015 19:21 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2015 12:37 Cricketer12 wrote:On October 07 2015 20:59 opisska wrote:
Any post that contains the word "Taeja" is automatically irrelevant to the topic. Seriously? Just because he didnt win in Korea? Yes he didnt do that, but can Korea Champs do what he has done? No fucking way Yes, exactly because of that. People (and by people, I mean first and foremst stuchiu, because he uses by far the most charactaers to do that) constantly arguing that foreign tournaments should be taken seriously is getting annoying. "Korea Champs" probably can't "do what he has done", because the year has only 365 days and the sacrifices they would have to do for that would probably have a negative effect on their Korean performance and they would no longer be "Korea Champs". However I strongly believe that if basically anyone who has been even mentioned in this thread focused on foreigner tournaments - that is prepared for the possible strong oponents in detail, took their time to travel in advance and be well rested etc.. they could win exactly as much as Taeja or even more. Just look at the IEM WCs: I don't think that's much of a coincidence that when $100k (or $68k) is on the line, it's suddenly not Taeja's day. And I really hate the argument of "look at how great Koreans this foreiger tourney had, it's like it was a Korean tourney" - if you look at Korean tourneys, you will see a lot of fluctuations in participants, because the real strength of Korea is the absurd depth of the pool of very good players and while the individual performances vary a lot, the overall level is somewhere completely different - as demonstrated for example by the sole fact that no foreigner has broken into a Korean league for years, while the coveted foreign "almost as Korean" tournaments see a foreigner run at least ftom time to time.
no, korean champs cant't win every foreigner tournament if they wanted to. INnoVation tried it, you don't remember?
He switched to acer and attended plenty foreign tournaments but didn't win a single one, losing multiple times to taeja.
i guess people will never agree on this discussion because they rate foreign tournaments differently but what taeja has achieved in HotS (8 premier tournaments + ro4 in blizzcon and wcs season finals) is impressive enough that he should at least be in the discussion. Saying otherwise is simply ignorant.
by the way, his games against soO, Rain and INnoVation are to this day the highest level of skill i've ever seen in sc2 but this is subjective.
Also why is everyone hating on taeja so much?
Players like bomber, polt and post-2010 MC also had mostly success at foreign tournaments but they get never flamed for that.
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On October 09 2015 04:18 Charoisaur wrote:
Also why is everyone hating on taeja so much?
Players like bomber, polt and post-2010 MC also had mostly success at foreign tournaments but they get never flamed for that.
Those also don't get consider for the top of a GOAT list very often. Nobody (or almost nobody) here is hating on Taeja, every anti-Taeja post is just simply a reaction to the insane amount by which is he being overrated on TL. I personally I always liked him and some of his games were absolutely awesome (vs. Inno on Newkirk anyone?) but that doesn't mean I am gonna blidly accept this mythology of great foreign tourneys.
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EPT
