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a bit of a rant and small annoyance, this might hurt me more than help me, but I really want to say something and get a second (public) opinion
"Do you make any money from it?"
That's probably what I am asked the most when someone discovers (either through word-of-mouth or an introduction from a mutual friend) that I host a Hero Builds project in Dota 2. It's also my least asked question because their facial expression tells it all.
Very recently, I had lost my job here in Copenhagen, Denmark. A corporate move that pulled the rug from a start-up project. We were collateral damage of an entire department's closing and that's really the end of that story (though, I'm very happy for what I got to do and who I got meet because of it - including attending my first Dota event; thank you ESL). In search of new work, I got to talk to some interesting people and interesting new ideas.
With these new people comes their piqued curiosity about the Dota Hero Builds. They see the number (80+ million with 5 to 6 million new subscriptions every month) and their eyes light up. Not out of amazement, curiosity or skepticism (80+ million subscriptions from a game that has 11+ million monthly users?), but for the green.
They ask two questions:
- 1. Is there a way to reach all those subscriptions
- and 2. Do you make any money from that?
and that stings a bit. It stings how disingenuous people can immediately become. Their snaky persona of wanting to strive for more by latching themselves onto another [even when they, themselves, have done so much more in their years] really angers me. I don't think the above paragraph really outlines the whole process, as it comes across one way or another, but in the end; they see a number, they wonder how they can incorporate this naive person into their plans to get a new slice of monetary pie and when I tell him that there is no money involved; they put the fork back in the drawer and move on almost immediately. Would I want to be friends or work with these people anyways? Obviously not, but I'm also in a position where I can't call them out on it, on their flaws; especially when I have so many myself.
"Why don't you?"
From close friends, I'll get the follow-up: "Well, why don't you?" and to be honest, I don't want to. I have a strong history of a career and achievements that I'm very proud of. Many of my friends are still in college or just starting to get work, and so for them, the extra money makes sense; especially when, in their view, it's "free work". But I'm fine and that's all I can really ask for. Even when I'm in jobless limbo, I'm still "fine" and hope my resume entices the right people and companies.
I also don't particularly like the idea of asking people for money. My friends try to rationalize it by downplaying the whole thing: "If you like what I do, here's a 'tip jar' and you can put in whatever you like" and to me, it still gives off the wrong message. I never imply in my words, so it would be literally what my friend is saying, but I feel people would interpret it as: "I've lost the will to do this, please give me money so I can justify doing it".
It just doesn't make sense to me to ask for people to donate via Paypal or Patreon for something that is free and open for everyone to use. The Hero Builds system is free for everyone to use. Why do I deserve to ask for people's support? In Esports, there are a ton of Twitch streamers, writers and youtubers who ask for Patreon support and it doesn't bother me that they do it, but I don't want to be a part of that group who wants to make this his full-time career.
I feel very conflicted about everything, the next topic will go into the situation, but on the one hand: the larger this project grows, the more time I have to dedicate myself to it, but on the other hand, I have this strange moral compass that tells me that making money (and not necessarily 'earning' it as it's through donations) for a free service feels wrong and taking advantage of people purely out of their thankfulness for something that was free to begin with.
If I could make this a part of my position somewhere, then I think that'd be ideal. However, since there is no money involved or any way a company can take advantage of it (where I would feel comfortable allowing them to), it's pretty much a dead-end.
"Will you?"
Lately the project has been taking up more and more of my time, at least 1 to 2 hours of my day every day ranging from checking up on the latest matches via Dotabuff, reviewing all feedback I get on LiquidDota, Reddit and Steam to planning out changes, upcoming guides or the statistics. When a new patch hits, it takes me literally 12+ hours to 30+ hours to update them all, and that really takes a toll on me. But it's important and when I read how people depend on the project, it really makes me feel good. It gives importance to me and that is what I believe one of the strongest motivators to keep doing what I'm doing (and it keeps me interested in Dota 2). I got to meet some really cool people at ESL One. Even AUI, a fellow Canadian, told me that he actually recommends the hero builds to his friends. I met someone named Meepwn who ended up being a really old-school Beta test for DotA; he mentioned how he liked my work. It's such an honor to hear those things in-person.
By October 2015, we'll have 100 million subscriptions with all the original heroes released. Right now, the project, presumably, holds approximately 74% of the userbase (subscribed). By then, I will have to re-evaluate if I can keep updating 150+ guides (currently at 145 + 2 heroes and potential new builds) as I don't see the responsibility getting any easier.
So that's the bottom-line, it's a ticking situation. If I do somehow decide to open up a way to support the project (my friends have been wearing me down into considering the prospect of it), I'll get the permission from selected contributors first along with a few survey questions to ensure fairness and acceptance. An alternative idea was to start doing other forms of content to which users can support (workshop items, video content, etc.) so the guides stay free without an inkling of promoting for tips, so users who contact me to support it have another way to do it. But that would mean additional work and financial support. It doesn't make the responsibilities any shorter or easier. I still want my career and I want to be in a stable position doing everything else I love. I don't want to pan-handle to a crowd and I've been doing fine without it for the past 2 years since the project started. Pandering to people's generosity to up my financial situation, when I can get work just fine feels wrong and starts to paint this project in a similar disingenuous light as those snaky people who ask me (even if unintended or not exactly similarly).
It's a bit of a mess what I'm saying and I'm sorry there isn't a better way of me to state the situation of everything. I'm very conflicted right in maintaining my moral compass, realizing the coming situation and avoiding indulgence (rationalized or not).
I've made a summary edit after thinking things over:
Edit: Retroactive Thoughts
Hello, I've come back to think about a few things now that I've calmed down a bit. What I'm essentially is this:
1. The idea that these guides earns no money helps sway away disingenuous people, but it also shows that they aren't really bothering to see my other qualifications (though, that may be for the good as they are not the right people to be or work with).
2. The guides project brings me the most pride in anything I've done before. I've handled players, done events, created studio shows and digital magazines. But this is what I cherish the most and reading everyone's comments really motivates me to keep going.
3. I'm strung between the sake of my interest in a career and the time/dedication this project needs. Half a day to a day's worth of work (elapsed time) when a new patch is released and at least an hour to two hours every day gathering feedback and keeping up with changes (even if small). This doesn't include testing builds (which is just playing matches usually). New patches also brings in new builds which either end up being the new standard or a novel build.
4. I'm conflicted about monetization as I like seeing the support from the community, but I feel like I'm pan-handling them for something I am not in dire need of [so long as I can work]. It goes against my moral compass and it doesn't actually limit the amount of work still needed. Ultimately, I'd want to do more to which people can support the project, without necessarily giving money to what is free (so that would mean additional work/content/stuff)
If I do decide to open up a support line, I will look into how I can share it with those who have been consistently giving feedback to me and the project for these past years.
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Just put it up on Twitter now. A bit of a clickbaity title though somewhat accurate in that it's drawing the wrong attention from some, but also becoming a even a time-drain for myself. So "more trouble than good" is, in a sense, what this blog is about (internal conflict and outside disingenuous interest)
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Is this the first step in an elaborate plan to start making money?
Well played sir, well played.
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I feel like the jar should have been a donate button to gauge interest
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On July 04 2015 22:44 Laurens wrote:
Is this the first step in an elaborate plan to start making money?
Well played sir, well played.
Was thinking the same LOL
good stuff torte. Glad you're the one making these.
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I've always been impressed by how much work you have put into these guides. They save me every time I play a new hero I'm not too sure about. Do you do it all by yourself/have you considered delegating some of it to other people?
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I've made a summary edit after thinking things over:
Edit: Retroactive ThoughtsHello, I've come back to think about a few things now that I've calmed down a bit. What I'm essentially is this: 1. The idea that these guides earns no money helps sway away disingenuous people, but it also shows that they aren't really bothering to see my other qualifications (though, that may be for the good as they are not the right people to be or work with).
2. The guides project brings me the most pride in anything I've done before. I've handled players, done events, created studio shows and digital magazines. But this is what I cherish the most and reading everyone's comments really motivates me to keep going.
3. I'm strung between the sake of my interest in a career and the time/dedication this project needs. Half a day to a day's worth of work (elapsed time) when a new patch is released and at least an hour to two hours every day gathering feedback and keeping up with changes (even if small). This doesn't include testing builds (which is just playing matches usually). New patches also brings in new builds which either end up being the new standard or a novel build.
4. I'm conflicted about monetization as I like seeing the support from the community, but I feel like I'm pan-handling them for something I am not in dire need of [so long as I can work]. It goes against my moral compass and it doesn't actually limit the amount of work still needed. Ultimately, I'd want to do more to which people can support the project, without necessarily giving money to what is free (so that would mean additional work/content/stuff)
If I do decide to open up a support line, I will look into how I can share it with those who have been consistently giving feedback to me and the project for these past years.
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I never really considered how much time you had to put in to make all these guides. I just figured you made them 1 day and that was that (LOL!). Upon hearing the numbers I am floored, not just by the amount of hours that it takes, but also by your willingness to put in said hours and without help or compensation. As a user of your guides all I can say that you are doing an amazing job and am thankful for the time you put in. Next time I random a hero I certainly won't think "oh, this guide is probably old by now" any more.
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On July 04 2015 22:44 Laurens wrote:
Is this the first step in an elaborate plan to start making money?
Well played sir, well played.
On July 04 2015 22:55 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2015 22:44 Laurens wrote:
Is this the first step in an elaborate plan to start making money?
Well played sir, well played. Was thinking the same LOL good stuff torte. Glad you're the one making these.
Ha, yes exactly! Through my naivete to be open and communicative, I am also seeking to be told: "no, it's okay, pander to our emotions!"
Haha, but no, in all seriousness; I was just venting a bit. It stemmed from those talks at the beginning and it got me thinking of the situation I'm running into.
On July 05 2015 03:45 Najda wrote:
I've always been impressed by how much work you have put into these guides. They save me every time I play a new hero I'm not too sure about. Do you do it all by yourself/have you considered delegating some of it to other people?
It is 100% not by myself. I have to do the legwork, but the brains and saviors are the guys in this thread: http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-guide-project-80m-subs-2-year
It can't be delegated to others because the guides are in my name and you can't add contributors.
On July 05 2015 04:04 Gotuso wrote:
I never really considered how much time you had to put in to make all these guides. I just figured you made them 1 day and that was that (LOL!). Upon hearing the numbers I am floored, not just by the amount of hours that it takes, but also by your willingness to put in said hours and without help or compensation. As a user of your guides all I can say that you are doing an amazing job and am thankful for the time you put in. Next time I random a hero I certainly won't think "oh, this guide is probably old by now" any more.
Nah, when you look at a guide; check to see when it was last updated. I put it directly in the recommended items table so you know it's been X since I last updated it.
Many thanks!
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What you are doing for the community of this game is really invaluable imo. I think you should get a job from valve to continue making theses guides.
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He's subtly asking for a job so he can keep working on what he likes to do. Since his statements about "money with guides" are contradictory, I'd say he's feeling a little bit guilty about fantasizing (imagine 10c per guide sub, ez TI3 prizepool right there, right?) so he underlines "i don't want it!"; not so much a demonstration of his resolve but rather a final cry for absolution before he succumbs to the allure of the riches.
Soon, he will be appearing everywhere, wearing eyesore garments, talking down to his coworkers and be offered a job at Valve.
You put forth a valiant effort. But in the end, money always wins. If not you, who else? Someone will monetize what can be monetized. Why not you, who will do all the good in the world with that money. At least that's what you will be telling yourself before your daily moneybath to ease your spirits. Carpe pecuniam.
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I've been doing the 10-hero challenges and your build guides are really great for that.
However, I'd like to say that I would be one of those guys asking the very same question, out of curiosity rather than self-interest. 80+ million of anything really is an amazing amount, so one would naturally wonder, y'know, if I got a single cent from 80 million, how much would that be, etc etc. And then when you say 'no, nothing' it kinda collapses the conversation topic and there's not much to be said subsequently.
In terms of interviews I am no expert but you could consider framing it clearly as a hobby, generally interviewers look for values you might have from a hobby and go no further.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
wat if u spent less time compiling stats on ur guides every week
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On July 05 2015 07:43 Carmine wrote:
What you are doing for the community of this game is really invaluable imo. I think you should get a job from valve to continue making theses guides.
On July 05 2015 07:50 Dagobert wrote:
He's subtly asking for a job so he can keep working on what he likes to do. Since his statements about "money with guides" are contradictory, I'd say he's feeling a little bit guilty about fantasizing (imagine 10c per guide sub, ez TI3 prizepool right there, right?) so he underlines "i don't want it!"; not so much a demonstration of his resolve but rather a final cry for absolution before he succumbs to the allure of the riches.
Soon, he will be appearing everywhere, wearing eyesore garments, talking down to his coworkers and be offered a job at Valve.
You put forth a valiant effort. But in the end, money always wins. If not you, who else? Someone will monetize what can be monetized. Why not you, who will do all the good in the world with that money. At least that's what you will be telling yourself before your daily moneybath to ease your spirits. Carpe pecuniam.
Huh, I never heard of Carpe Pecuniam.
I'll level with you. I like the guides, I like the dependency people have for it, I like how I learn a bit more about the game more and more (thanks to everyone who plays better than me, correcting me constantly on poor changes). I like feeling like I matter and it's a constant security I seek (and can get obnoxious about, as some will tell you).
As of right now, people like Purge and Merlini are making good money (I hope) doing content that is better, more in-depth and rounded than these guides. So when you say: "If not you, who else?", well there's already plenty out there and they're pretty good at what they do. Could I do what they do? Probably not as well and not without that same dedication which I don't want to do as I don't see it as a long-term prospect (I like big projects and working with others and doing a lot of things in a lot of different departments).
To answer your thoughts: yes, I am feeling guilty breaching the subject about money. I don't like having to deal with it and I don't like how value is quantified by it and I don't like how it is the only motivation going for some people. I avoid it because I feel it adds a bit of a stain to a project.
at 100 million, I said I'd re-evaluate things and get second opinions from those who've put in a lot of effort to keep the guides up-to-date and remotely accurate. So that's around October if our predictions are right. A lot will change by October I assume, especially for myself; where I'll live and what my job will be.
I like your last line, it's difficult how to approach that last train of thought haha.
On July 05 2015 07:54 tissue wrote:
I've been doing the 10-hero challenges and your build guides are really great for that.
However, I'd like to say that I would be one of those guys asking the very same question, out of curiosity rather than self-interest. 80+ million of anything really is an amazing amount, so one would naturally wonder, y'know, if I got a single cent from 80 million, how much would that be, etc etc. And then when you say 'no, nothing' it kinda collapses the conversation topic and there's not much to be said subsequently.
In terms of interviews I am no expert but you could consider framing it clearly as a hobby, generally interviewers look for values you might have from a hobby and go no further.
80+ million subscriptions is about 763,000 unique subscribers (1.45 million is the true confirmed amount and 74% is our flawed approximation).
The situation that occurs is that someone will be very kind and sincere about their interest in me and then when the subject comes up, they immediately ask their questions and go silent (via Skype) or leave (a quick reason and then runs off). It's a very strange phenomenon.
On my CV, it's placed under projects along with the other projects I did in the past (BarCraft Montreal, writing, etc.)
On July 05 2015 08:12 ahswtini wrote:
wat if u spent less time compiling stats on ur guides every week
I do it every two weeks. It's my favourite thing to do. Takes about an hour to an hour and a 1/2. I'm also preparing a new article when we hit 90 million; so that's upped the amount of work a bit. I could stop, but it's a point of interest for me.
The biggest issue I'm having is that I'm making changes on guides that I can't thoroughly test (and I also suck with some heroes; so my personal feelings are bias), I also am falling behind on the majority of guides where some haven't been updated since late April or early May.
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"Boo fucking hoo i don't make any money on guides that other LD posters make for me"
Like are you serious?
This has to be a joke right?
You're like a person that tries to get paid for making youtube playlists, like all of these guides are complied from OTHER POSTERS on the forum, its not your brain, its everyone in those strat forums, and you want to get paid for putting that information together?
You're not real right?
This is ridiculous. Rethink everything about your contribution.
User was warned for this post
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On July 05 2015 15:23 Shaella wrote:
"Boo fucking hoo i don't make any money on guides that other LD posters make for me"
Like are you serious?
This has to be a joke right?
You're like a person that tries to get paid for making youtube playlists, like all of these guides are complied from OTHER POSTERS on the forum, its not your brain, its everyone in those strat forums, and you want to get paid for putting that information together?
You're not real right?
This is ridiculous. Rethink everything about your contribution.
I banned you, mainly because I didn't like your tone which I felt was unnecessarily aggressive.
That's nothing what I wrote about, and it shows you skimmed it and then overreacted.
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Because the entire premise is ridiculous.
Nice ban tho, great job.
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On July 05 2015 16:23 Shaella wrote:
Because the entire premise is ridiculous.
Nice ban tho, great job.
As you can see, the LiquidDota ban feature doesn't work, but I don't appreciate you're over-aggressive tone.
I think you both underestimate the work needed to ensure the guides are up-to-date as well as over-emphasize the contribution others do and you do not follow whatsoever. I would prefer if you stopped posting here with dismissive attitude.
Like this post, you skimmed, assumed it was about X implication. I'm not looking to get paid, in fact; it clearly states the monetization would not solve the ultimate issue.
Secondly, I think you need to recount how much input I receive and how much is changed without notice or correction.
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You're wrong, i don't really need to think about that. Because i know these things. Because i have my own brain.
I get your problem, you're sitting there and you're doing a lot of "work" compiling these guides for no monetary compensation, and you're not getting paid,
Here's the reality for you, you're never going to make money on community guides, you will never be able to find a way to monetize, your tip jar will never make any money, because people are not going to pay for words that are INCREDIBLY easy to access.
Its just some text, either you do it for the love of the community, or you're wasting your time, this is not a business. This is not your livelihood, and it never will be.
Your ego is ridiculous dude.
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On July 05 2015 16:34 Shaella wrote:
You're wrong, i don't really need to think about that. Because i know these things. Because i have my own brain.
I get your problem, you're sitting there and you're doing a lot of "work" compiling these guides for no monetary compensation, and you're not getting paid,
Here's the reality for you, you're never going to make money on community guides, you will never be able to find a way to monetize, your tip jar will never make any money, because people are not going to pay for words that are INCREDIBLY easy to access.
Its just some text, either you do it for the love of the community, or you're wasting your time, this is not a business. This is not your livelihood, and it never will be.
Your ego is ridiculous dude.
I'm happy you have your own brain.
The problem is that the more the game expands, the more time it will demand and the more of a priority it will be. The lack of monetary compensation side-steps the issue. It's a question of time and interest, not financial return.
I'm actually looking for a full-time career. If I were to do the guides full-time, it would not be stable or financially safe long-term.
Probably not as well and not without that same dedication which I don't want to do as I don't see it as a long-term prospect (I like big projects and working with others and doing a lot of things in a lot of different departments).
You need to skim less and read more. I understand having a cynical attitude, but where it is justified. You should join Dubzex in your endeavour to put down others while simultaneously failing to see an actual perspective.
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/472027-official-off-topic-general-discussion?page=2503#50058
Conversation continues here with Shaella being both dismissive and cynical without having read the blog in full.
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