In spring 2007, I was a sophomore in college and I was just getting into the professional BW scene. I had a Korean roommate named Seungmyung Lee. He played BW almost every day--only TvZ, only bio. Lee made me sit down to watch a classic NaDa vs sAviOr game one day as my introduction to Korean players. I was hooked immediately. These players made BW look like a totally different game than the one I grew up playing on dial-up. Marines aren't just an early-game unit??
Lee and I followed the important matches in Korea together, through the beginning of 2007. At this time it was complicated to follow Korean SC from the States. There were no stream relays, few English-language commentators (shout outs to VioleTAK and Klazart), and VODs were posted late if ever. But Lee--being Korean--had the Korean GOM player installed and knew how to pull up the important matches by navigating the program in his native language (there was no English-language GOM client at that time).
Lee and I were geared up for the OSL and MSL finals in February and March 2007. sAviOr was in both of them, and we hated Zerg and wanted the Maestro to lose. Our hero NaDa faced sAviOr in the OSL final in February 2007. We figured that NaDa was humanity's best shot at keeping sAviOr from winning both titles.
sAviOr rolled NaDa 3-1 in the OSL--and from my memory of the games, 3-1 was a generous set split for NaDa. NaDa got destroyed. sAviOr was unstoppable.
Going in to the MSL final a few weeks later, everyone knew that sAviOr would win. He was up against some unknown Protoss player called "Bisu" who was nowhere near as accomplished as NaDa.
Lee and I had no idea who this kid was. And PvZ was an impossible matchup. Zerg always won. sAviOr's recent record against Protoss was proof of this:
Lee and I decided we wouldn't stay up to watch the MSL finals live, but would catch the VODs first thing in the morning. It was a Bo5. We pulled up chairs around Lee's secondary monitor in our dorm room.
Lee and I tried hard to avoid spoilers. But when Lee navigated to the VODs of the MSL finals in GOM player, only three entries popped up--only three games. We knew what that meant. sAviOr had won another title, and this time he had only needed three sets to do it. It was going to be another beatdown.
When Bisu started producing Corsairs, Lee and I bugged our eyes out. When the camera revealed that Bisu had a huge army at his third despite relentless mid game harass, we bugged our eyes out. When sAviOr tapped out after 12 minutes, we looked at each other and bugged our eyes out. sAviOr lost a PvZ. Wait--sAviOr lost not just one PvZ, but three in a row, and to a Protoss we'd never heard of.
We were giddy to watch the next two sets. And you should be too. This was the end of an era for sAviOr, the beginning of one for Bisu, and the seminal moment for the style of PvZ that would define that matchup in BW's final years.
As a person who got into BW pretty late i found the games luckluster (1 sided). I understand the premise of revolution and fall of Savior but entairtainment wise it was not even close to my top10.
GGplay vs Iris OSL series is the king. It includes both new and old style of play and is so dynamic.
Also while Bisu had never won a title yet, he wasn't a complete stranger, if I remember correctly he was already #2 in TL power rank before the finals.
If you removed all the context from the finals, those games were really bad. As someone coming into that series expecting a highly contested series similar to that epic Nal_ra vs Savior clash I was left very disappointed.
On January 30 2015 18:03 DinoToss wrote: As a person who got into BW pretty late i found the games luckluster (1 sided). I understand the premise of revolution and fall of Savior but entairtainment wise it was not even close to my top10.
GGplay vs Iris OSL series is the king. It includes both new and old style of play and is so dynamic.
that exactly what was so awesome, that it was so one sided, after years upon years of zergs bashing the shit out of protoss it looked like jesus walking on water
ggplay vs iris might be one of the best finals ever if not the best
I remember this game off Tempest. I think it was versus Light. Where he effectively won the match with 3 dragoons versus some sort of bunker rush offrax strat. that'll probably be the most memorable match i still have in mind.
What a mindblowing series. I rarely woke up in the middle of the night to watch live but I got a good feeling about Bisu when he beat Nal_rA and I just knew I had to see his attempt at doing the impossible. There are big events that happen in the world and in each person's personal life that stick with you forever. This series for me is one of those events where, decades later, you ask someone "Where were you when the revolution happened?"
As I was watching, I remember thinking "yeah that's good, but..." and doubting every step of the way until Protoss victory was absolutely clear. For better or worse, this series will always give me hope that there's no impossible situation and no strategic dead end. Looking back at the periods when SC2 got stale, I always think of the failure of the players to rise above it, not of the failure of the developers creating a "solvable" and "strategically stale" game. Who knows what revolutions we missed out on.
On January 31 2015 00:46 NonY wrote: What a mindblowing series. I rarely woke up in the middle of the night to watch live but I got a good feeling about Bisu when he beat Nal_rA and I just knew I had to see his attempt at doing the impossible. There are big events that happen in the world and in each person's personal life that stick with you forever. This series for me is one of those events where, decades later, you ask someone "Where were you when the revolution happened?"
As I was watching, I remember thinking "yeah that's good, but..." and doubting every step of the way until Protoss victory was absolutely clear. For better or worse, this series will always give me hope that there's no impossible situation and no strategic dead end. Looking back at the periods when SC2 got stale, I always think of the failure of the players to rise above it, not of the failure of the developers creating a "solvable" and "strategically stale" game. Who knows what revolutions we missed out on.
so u blame the players for not making sc2 more dynamic ?
i mean its not like the whole korean pro gaming world got at it and nothing happened..
On January 31 2015 00:46 NonY wrote: What a mindblowing series. I rarely woke up in the middle of the night to watch live but I got a good feeling about Bisu when he beat Nal_rA and I just knew I had to see his attempt at doing the impossible. There are big events that happen in the world and in each person's personal life that stick with you forever. This series for me is one of those events where, decades later, you ask someone "Where were you when the revolution happened?"
As I was watching, I remember thinking "yeah that's good, but..." and doubting every step of the way until Protoss victory was absolutely clear. For better or worse, this series will always give me hope that there's no impossible situation and no strategic dead end. Looking back at the periods when SC2 got stale, I always think of the failure of the players to rise above it, not of the failure of the developers creating a "solvable" and "strategically stale" game. Who knows what revolutions we missed out on.
so u blame the players for not making sc2 more dynamic ?
i mean its not like the whole korean pro gaming world got at it and nothing happened..
I think it's more about the approach to SC2 balancing, compared to Broodwar.
Back in the days it seems like they took much longer to balance via patches and gave the players more time to figure stuff out. Nowadays in SC2 imo it seems like, patches are thrown out every couple of months.
I think that's what Nony is getting at too. Given more time and different/better mapmaking, players could have figured out much more.
I remember having the experience that even on game three I was like "there's definitely more VODs than this.." but I'll be damned if I remember whether I got them off a TL torrent and they were just spoiler VODs, or if I was already downloading VODs off youtube or stage6 at that time.
Hahaha, oh beesuit. Those were great games. One of the first times the FPVODs were released shortly after too, and you could really see the fear in Savior's FPVOD.
I don't blame anyone. I think blame requires evidence that we can't collect. But there are different ways that SC2 could have been better and the players playing better is one of them.
It seems like the community and the players themselves have made it so that the players feel obligated to think about balance and act as authorities on balance and design. I think that that attitude doesn't improve the development of the game and it hinders their ability to do their job. It's not natural to be yanked both ways -- to try to do the impossible every day in practice while trying to convince developers that it really is impossible and the only solution is to change the rules of the game.
The players can contribute best by playing their best. There aren't any words to add to it. Their brain doesn't have to waste energy and become confused by being on both sides. Blizzard doesn't make changes without evidence supporting it anyway. The devs watch tournaments and collect statistics. Players just gotta play and that's best for everyone.
To relate this back to the blog, I think there's a scary high chance that Bisu would not have done what he did in that series if his environment was like the environment of many SC2 players. All the more reason to treasure it since we're unlikely to see a similar context come up again.
On January 31 2015 04:11 NonY wrote: I don't blame anyone. I think blame requires evidence that we can't collect. But there are different ways that SC2 could have been better and the players playing better is one of them.
It seems like the community and the players themselves have made it so that the players feel obligated to think about balance and act as authorities on balance and design. I think that that attitude doesn't improve the development of the game and it hinders their ability to do their job. It's not natural to be yanked both ways -- to try to do the impossible every day in practice while trying to convince developers that it really is impossible and the only solution is to change the rules of the game.
The players can contribute best by playing their best. There aren't any words to add to it. Their brain doesn't have to waste energy and become confused by being on both sides. Blizzard doesn't make changes without evidence supporting it anyway. The devs watch tournaments and collect statistics. Players just gotta play and that's best for everyone.
To relate this back to the blog, I think there's a scary high chance that Bisu would not have done what he did in that series if his environment was like the environment of many SC2 players. All the more reason to treasure it since we're unlikely to see a similar context come up again.
if you go down that road then you really have to pin point the whole balancing insanity thing to where it comes from
i dont recall bw pro gamers whining for patches what prompted them to do so in sc2 ?
my guess is that frustration played a big part in this as for my personal experience, I use to play games hardcore since pretty young and sc2 was along with war3, the only two games I couldnt play more than 3 hours straight without getting bored out of my mind
maybe it's 3d, game design, idk... but it always felt slow and boring feelings i never got from any other game like quake, sc, even aoe etc
Nonyyyy erudite as always. Hope you coming back man! Anyways just logged in to say .... Boonbag, you are part of the minority if you cudnt play war3 / SC2 for more than 3 hrs. Now back to the blog and revelling in good times gone by !
On January 31 2015 06:42 MrBitter wrote: Yo words cannot express how happy it makes me to see you still writing about BW.
MrB the hero. How are you man? Where you living these days? Job? Still casting anything?
Also so glad to see some other heroes of TL the old pop out of the woodwork...big hey to all of you guys after all of these years. Awesome how shared memories of great matches will keep people together
As for this match itself, in response to Plexa's comment and others like it all I have to say is that the reason I loved this series was ALL about context. It really felt like watching a revolution in real time, given the nature of PvZ at the time and the backstories of these two players. And looking back on the match 8 years later only makes it seem more important--Bisu went on to become one of the greatest players in BW history and sAviOr's career imploded.
No other match in BW gave me the sense of "WHAT AM I WATCHING" like this one (Nony I think you hit it on the head--it was a "where were you when this happened" moment). Though of course there were many epic finals that were much more back and forth than this one!
On January 30 2015 18:16 Plexa wrote: If you removed all the context from the finals, those games were really bad. As someone coming into that series expecting a highly contested series similar to that epic Nal_ra vs Savior clash I was left very disappointed.
Funny I never thought of that. But it's totally true.
On January 30 2015 18:16 Plexa wrote: If you removed all the context from the finals, those games were really bad. As someone coming into that series expecting a highly contested series similar to that epic Nal_ra vs Savior clash I was left very disappointed.
Funny I never thought of that. But it's totally true.
legendary thread, legendary series. bw was my childhood. it's crazy to think how one player in one series changed the way people approached the game. sair-dt was born, and the three hatch scourage into five hatch hydra followed as a counter to that.
On February 01 2015 06:32 OneOther wrote: legendary thread, legendary series. bw was my childhood. it's crazy to think how one player in one series changed the way people approached the game. sair-dt was born, and the three hatch scourage into five hatch hydra followed as a counter to that.
edit: watched this shit live obviously
That also took a long while to come up. Players need their time to figure out a counter. I think throwing a bunch of balance patches at the game as soon as a new "OP" strategy arises is the wrong approach. A healthy meta game that shifts on it's own is beautiful and really creates memories and changes that remain as history.
I agree with NonY completely regarding the change in attitude from BW to SC2. I got into BW around the time of this series, and I realized pretty quickly that BW was regarded as a well-balanced game - one where either solid play or innovation could overcome any obstacle. Implying, in the strategy forum, that BW needed to be rebalanced or that something was "OP" and needed to be changed was almost universally met with disagreement and criticism ( and rightly so). But now, not just in SC2, but in many games (Hearthstone, DotA, etc.), When someone days something is overpowered, it's generally met with agreement from other's who are having difficulty with the same card/hero/strategy. And the reason, IMO, is because Blizzard and others are more active in "balancing" their games. While that seems good on the surface, it simply allows people to hope things change so they don't have to deal with their personal challenges, rather than overcome them and possibly achieve true greatness, as Bisu did.
Anyway enough ranting. My favorite match was 2008 Ever OSL Finals, July vs Best, which can be seen here for those of you who haven't seen or would like to watch again:
On January 30 2015 16:38 Grobyc wrote: You know, I've never even watched that match in one straight go despite it being such a pivot for the PvZ revolution. I think I'll do that now
I've never watched it either LOL. Then again I'm a Z > T > P fanboy so...
I didn't watch this live but thinking about the context while watching it, I can understand and see why this was a MAJOR upset and the start of a revolution. It's changed the game landscape so much.
On January 31 2015 11:29 Probemicro wrote: i always wonder if savior had won that matchup instead, HOW would the rest of history had turned out differently?
Protoss would continue to whine about late game PvZ for a couple more years before someone else finds another strategy or just a modification of the same one that Bisu used is my guess.
On January 30 2015 22:31 sCuMBaG wrote: I remember this game off Tempest. I think it was versus Light. Where he effectively won the match with 3 dragoons versus some sort of bunker rush offrax strat. that'll probably be the most memorable match i still have in mind.
Anyway enough ranting. My favorite match was 2008 Ever OSL Finals, July vs Best, which can be seen here for those of you who haven't seen or would like to watch again:
This was the first OSL that I watched and the one that got me hooked to BW. I was not around to watch some of the "older" epics like the Iris vs GGPlay or Savior vs Bisu series, but there is something special about ones where it's the "first" for you.
Anyway enough ranting. My favorite match was 2008 Ever OSL Finals, July vs Best, which can be seen here for those of you who haven't seen or would like to watch again:
This was the first OSL that I watched and the one that got me hooked to BW. I was not around to watch some of the "older" epics like the Iris vs GGPlay or Savior vs Bisu series, but there is something special about ones where it's the "first" for you.
i got into BW a little after this series (during the blizzard invitational when sc2 was announced) and I remember everyone had this profound hate of Bisu because he came out of nowhere to dominate everything
Great blog: concise yet evokes memory easily. I will never follow a sport nor game as closely as BW so I cherish the memories. I must also say that the classic BW is nicely matched with the classic TLers posting in this thread. Good ol' days.
Edit: I was watching the TL team play CSGO as I wrote this. Maybe these days aren't so bad either.
I'm in the very small minority that dismisses anything Savior achieved in BW simply because he hurt BW which is something closely tied to my identity and youth so I'm glad this Bisu 3-0 happened to him. But watching it live I'd have to compare it to watching July's early OSL wins or his series vs Best. His superior understanding vs Best and unbending, relentless will to win in his first two OSL wins were incredible to watch like Bisu executing Sair-dt at the highest level on the grandest stage. There were a lot of jaw-drop moments in BW and these 2 were definitely among those. Glad to have watched it live.
Ah, what a glorious day this was, I was never a big Protoss fan but I was always a Savior anti-fan for some reason, I respected the guy for his skill but I knew there was something off about him. He was never the same after this final.
I also remember people giving Bisu a lot of shit for going on holiday to Thailand shortly before the finals, supposedly he needed more practice time
On February 01 2015 06:32 OneOther wrote: legendary thread, legendary series. bw was my childhood. it's crazy to think how one player in one series changed the way people approached the game. sair-dt was born, and the three hatch scourage into five hatch hydra followed as a counter to that.
edit: watched this shit live obviously
That also took a long while to come up. Players need their time to figure out a counter. I think throwing a bunch of balance patches at the game as soon as a new "OP" strategy arises is the wrong approach. A healthy meta game that shifts on it's own is beautiful and really creates memories and changes that remain as history.
Yes! This combined with new maps coming out is one of the things I loved about BW. When the neo-sauron style that OneOther was talking about became popular, then Protoss had to come up with some new builds to counter that, which in turn Zerg had to find answers against. When Protoss players started doing strong attacks with Speedlots off of 2, 3, or 4 Gates to hit before the mass production of Hydras began, then the Zerg players had to find an answer to that, and they started positioning their buildings in a way to limit the effectiveness of these attacks, and so on.
That's one of the many amazing things about Brood War to me, just how it developed over time. And I was far from a good player, especially compared to the pro gamers, but even just logging into iCCup and playing games and watching replays every day, I could see that development happening right in front of me.
It's really hard to overstate how important the Bisu vs. Savior MSL final was. There are very few players you can say that completely changed how the game was played the way Bisu did. Everyone knows that Bisu didn't invent forge fe, etc., but it didn't become the absolute standard PvZ template until this finals. Who else had such a great influence that lasted to BW to today? Bisu's influence on PvZ is comparable to what Savior did to ZvT, and Jaedong's later developments in ZvZ.
On February 03 2015 09:46 koreasilver wrote: It's really hard to overstate how important the Bisu vs. Savior MSL final was. There are very few players you can say that completely changed how the game was played the way Bisu did. Everyone knows that Bisu didn't invent forge fe, etc., but it didn't become the absolute standard PvZ template until this finals. Who else had such a great influence that lasted to BW to today? Bisu's influence on PvZ is comparable to what Savior did to ZvT, and Jaedong's later developments in ZvZ.
I watched it live while i was a kid. Secretly (because i should have been asleep). And i got really really yelled at... Because i woke up the house screaming : "THAT FUCKING PROTOSS IS SO LUCKY" or something like that. I was so mad that SaviOr lost.
On February 03 2015 09:46 koreasilver wrote: It's really hard to overstate how important the Bisu vs. Savior MSL final was. There are very few players you can say that completely changed how the game was played the way Bisu did. Everyone knows that Bisu didn't invent forge fe, etc., but it didn't become the absolute standard PvZ template until this finals. Who else had such a great influence that lasted to BW to today? Bisu's influence on PvZ is comparable to what Savior did to ZvT, and Jaedong's later developments in ZvZ.
i disagree Flash had massive influence
on winrate % :D
Arguiably, FlaSh "revolutionized" with the double armory build. But it's not as big as SaviOr ZvT.
I think you can count (not in order)
- Boxer (Terran was weak. Not after him. also too much thing to count since this guy made Blizzard patch the game multiple times). - NaDa (Macro) - Oov (Macro and Expanding technics) - Shark and then July (muta micro) - SaviOr (For ZvT although he was a monster in ZvP too) - Reach (Macro Protoss) - Bisu (because fuck this guy and fuck corsairs). - JD for his ZvZ. - Flash (his mech vs Protoss with double armory. (was that the medusa build or something like that).
I have trouble remembnering everything now. Weird to say BW is older than my niece
On February 04 2015 04:43 Elyvilon wrote: iirc Flash made a lot of small to medium sized innovations, it wasn't just him executing better than everyone else.
Well it was both combined. For example he made 14 CC standard in TvZ but only for himself because everyone else did just die to agressive play...
On February 04 2015 04:43 Elyvilon wrote: iirc Flash made a lot of small to medium sized innovations, it wasn't just him executing better than everyone else.
Well it was both combined. For example he made 14 CC standard in TvZ but only for himself because everyone else did just die to agressive play...
making revolutions only for your own self is pretty op
Flash definitely made a LOT of innovations. But I was thinking in a more fundamental sense. Like Savior utterly standardizing ZvT into the form of muta -> lurk -> hive play, a general framework that continued even during the 2hatch fad that held on for a period of time where the only person still going 3hatch openings consistently was Effort. Something comparable, I suppose, could be the lategame TvZ stuff that started with Fantasy's strategy against Jaedong in the two Outsider games that Flash developed on heavily into a more general lategame framework that wasn't just a one-off map specific thing that then developed into a full-out mech switch.
And no, 14cc really isn't an innovation and it was never a standard in TvZ. It didn't really do anything to change the strategic framework anyway. Going no pool 3hatch or a more standard 3hatch opening doesn't really change anything on the actual framework. It's just a greedier opening. It's the same thing with 14cc in comparison to rax fe or 12nexus vs forge fe or 1gate fe.
On February 04 2015 15:37 koreasilver wrote: Flash definitely made a LOT of innovations. But I was thinking in a more fundamental sense.
That's the point I wouldn't completely agree with. Don't misunderstand, I agree with some parts of the argument.
It might be just me, but it seems as if the game was mostly judged as "fundamental" change in "strategy" or meta by tons of players who just started to play BW at that point or shortly before. Someone mentioned in the thread that this game would have made the Protoss players use Forge FE as standardized opening. Not really, I guess.
What the game did (and that's what Bisu achievement was), was showing that even the best could be beaten with an old idea. There were no real fundamental changes anywhere. The maps back then already forced some sort of macro oriented play, as well as what Zerg did in that era. It demanded other mechanics and a slightly different kind of focus on execution - which Bisu was capable of in a "best" way possible. What made it really outstanding was the context, that he must have played in cold blood without doing many mistakes. That he did. For the rest of the players it was easier to to play in cold blood as well, once they saw it was already done. A mental thing, I guess.
It's always dangerous to want to pin point a "fundamental" change to one game, or to say a player was fundamental for the game because of just one set of series. Bisu was fundamental in a way, that he broke the record of the tyrant twice and that he was the slayer of the best Zerg players, but other than that, he wasn't the guy who I'd connect to genius strategy developement right away. He was the right guy in the right place in the right time in the right match up. Shouldn't be a flame against Bisu, just trying to put it in context. It's prolly something you can say about any of the big names and big matches. Bisu is or was outstanding, because he showed high level games over a longer time frame. That makes him better than many other Protoss players, not that he won one series once against one of the best players of his time.
Seriously though, for me games with a related "fundamental" status would be rA's recall (which would stun anyone but the possi players who saw that move in any game they played), Yellow's massive Swarms featured in the Pimpest Plays (which wasn't that new, but mindblowing nonetheless), Boxers hundreds of small micro actions (e.g. how he stomped Blackman on LT)(which is ridiculous today, but wasn't without LL), sAviOr beating Nada to a pulp on Longinus, or FlaSh waltzing literally over a no-mistake-making ZerO on Polaris Rhapsody. Yet, most of these games were no final, nor were they considered fundamental. Hence, I agree with Plexa with the "if the context of the finals is taken away" argument and disagree that this series alone was "fundamental". It was already there, it was just the final push the elite class needed.
3/32007 was around when I started watching BW, and I really wish I had understood the importance of Bisu's win at the time. It really is fantastic how that build style became dominant for the rest of BW's dominant life. The only thing that came close to that impact after that is maybe the bio->mech switch in TvZ that for a good half year flummoxed so many Zergs.
On February 09 2015 07:26 Jathin wrote: Is it possible savior threw this series? I remember staying up to watch this game live and I was just baffled by how badly he got ass-pounded. I felt like there was something wrong with the whole thing. And then a year later it comes out that savior was a game-throwing scumbag. Since then I've always wondered if he threw this series.
Yeah, if by a "year later" you mean like three years later, and if it wasn't just Savior but more-or-less every Zerg getting shit on by Bisu for time immemorial, then sure, yes, I might wonder too.
I've been following BW since 2000 when I lived in South Korea. Trying to chalk up the Bisu vs. Savior upset by referring to cheating incidents that happened 2~3 years later is just asinine. No one is going to go back to a series that Hwasin lost and say, well, he was caught cheating two years later - do you guys think he threw the game?
if anything that particular defeat triggered his overall downfall which eventually lead him into being the centre of the matchfixing scandal. butterfly effect if you will.
if he had won, who knows how it would have turned out, savior might never turn to matchfixing a few years later and just retire in glory.
On February 10 2015 09:32 Jathin wrote: I don't see why it's asinine to ask whether or not a game was thrown that occurred antecedent to getting caught. How do you know how long Savior's been throwing matches for?
Well it not impossible for the greatests to suddenly fall completely on their faces. Just look at France in 2002 and Spain in 2014 World Cup. And it's not like Bisu did it with some gimmicks or unsound tricks.
And as for the match fixing, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the scandal was a proleague thing, and not individual leagues. Of course that begs the question of "if the guy can throw in proleague, what's stopping him from throwing in individual league?" But there hasn't been anything conclusive, (again, someone correct me if I'm wrong) with regards to illegal betting sites with regard to individual leagues like there is for proleague. And I mean Luxury, who was also a convict, won a MSL as late as 2009, so it would seem strange for anyone to throw in Individual league, and a final no less.
Last but not least, it was very interesting that you would bring this up, because when the news first broke out in 2010, the Korean commentators did like a little show (kind of like SotG for sc2) where they just talk about, quite literally, the state of the game. And one of them said something along the lines of "I feel very bad for the clean players who played these guys, because their wins (even the ones where match fixers didn't throw) are going to be questioned now."
Reading about the series and watching the vods again reminded me of the time I stayed up late watching this. One of the few series i've watched and remembered vividly only because of how I felt at the end of each match. savior getting crushed got me on an emotional high. Thanks for the nostalgia trip.
thank you for posting this, it was a pleasure rewatching those games. Back then I was a student too and I would wake up for CJ s PL games and MSL/OSL finals. But none of my schoolmates knew about BW so I was always alone in my dorm at like 5AM; cheering for CJ. I was so sad when Bisu won actually, but I was also a P player and I was amazed by his style. Good old times
So great thread and the series. There're so much to remember: classical Boxer vs Yellow finals; some hardcore PvP games by Nal_rA and [Oops]Reach; Legionnaire's all-kill at PL(i guess?), JD's dominance... Ah, nostalgie. Btw, maybe someone can remember the game of White-Ra vs JulyZerg @Destination with White-Ra's great use of dark archon. It was an official game at some tournament as far as i remember.
On February 12 2015 19:32 Vo-one wrote: High five to the old geezers!
So great thread and the series. There're so much to remember: classical Boxer vs Yellow finals; some hardcore PvP games by Nal_rA and [Oops]Reach; Legionnaire's all-kill at PL(i guess?)... Ah, nostalgie. Btw, maybe someone can remember the game of White-Ra vs JulyZerg @Destination with White-Ra's great use of dark archon. It was an official game at some tournament as far as i remember.
This is a game of White-Ra vs. JulyZerg on Destination, but it seems the replay link doesn't work
Which newface protoss was it that cannoned up the entire right side of blue storm to try to force a draw vs Terran in a game he was clearly losing? Good times lol.
On February 10 2015 09:32 Jathin wrote: I don't see why it's asinine to ask whether or not a game was thrown that occurred antecedent to getting caught. How do you know how long Savior's been throwing matches for?
Well it not impossible for the greatests to suddenly fall completely on their faces. Just look at France in 2002 and Spain in 2014 World Cup. And it's not like Bisu did it with some gimmicks or unsound tricks.
And as for the match fixing, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the scandal was a proleague thing, and not individual leagues. Of course that begs the question of "if the guy can throw in proleague, what's stopping him from throwing in individual league?" But there hasn't been anything conclusive, (again, someone correct me if I'm wrong) with regards to illegal betting sites with regard to individual leagues like there is for proleague. And I mean Luxury, who was also a convict, won a MSL as late as 2009, so it would seem strange for anyone to throw in Individual league, and a final no less.
Last but not least, it was very interesting that you would bring this up, because when the news first broke out in 2010, the Korean commentators did like a little show (kind of like SotG for sc2) where they just talk about, quite literally, the state of the game. And one of them said something along the lines of "I feel very bad for the clean players who played these guys, because their wins (even the ones where match fixers didn't throw) are going to be questioned now."
must watch viewing for those who haven't seen it yet
On March 15 2015 09:05 Elyvilon wrote: I don't remember anyone else offhand, but the I believe the IEM commentator is some other guy who goes by Maynarde, not actual Maynard.
oh jeez. thank you, will do some more research.
edit: but anyway it would be nice to have whole story for likipedy.
Man, this thread really made me reminisce about Korean Broodwar. It's nice to remember there are other people out there who found meaning from this game. JWD, I appreciate the work you put into to running the Power Rank back in the day; It was always a pleasure to read.
I got into Broodwar shortly after this series happened (in Summer 2007) but these games were among the first that I watched. As such I entered the scene as a typical Bisu fanboy, worshiping his PvZ play that, well, for a while really made the matchup seem to be Protoss favored (I think Bisu had an 80% winrate vs Zerg at this point in his career). I would eventually see the light, and become a Stork acolyte (who was IMO the true successor to Nal Ra's throne).
I think another game that showcases the rise of a new god was Bisu vs Flash on Monty Hall. It's fun to look back and see Flash as a young, cocky cheeser. Interesting to think such a kid would go onto be a repressive macro tyrant who crushed his opponents into submission.
EPT
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