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On February 03 2015 09:46 koreasilver wrote:
It's really hard to overstate how important the Bisu vs. Savior MSL final was. There are very few players you can say that completely changed how the game was played the way Bisu did. Everyone knows that Bisu didn't invent forge fe, etc., but it didn't become the absolute standard PvZ template until this finals. Who else had such a great influence that lasted to BW to today? Bisu's influence on PvZ is comparable to what Savior did to ZvT, and Jaedong's later developments in ZvZ.
i disagree
Flash had massive influence
on winrate % :D
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I watched it live while i was a kid. Secretly (because i should have been asleep). And i got really really yelled at... Because i woke up the house screaming : "THAT FUCKING PROTOSS IS SO LUCKY" or something like that. I was so mad that SaviOr lost.
And i still hate Bisu to this day.
On February 03 2015 18:25 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 09:46 koreasilver wrote:
It's really hard to overstate how important the Bisu vs. Savior MSL final was. There are very few players you can say that completely changed how the game was played the way Bisu did. Everyone knows that Bisu didn't invent forge fe, etc., but it didn't become the absolute standard PvZ template until this finals. Who else had such a great influence that lasted to BW to today? Bisu's influence on PvZ is comparable to what Savior did to ZvT, and Jaedong's later developments in ZvZ. i disagree Flash had massive influence on winrate % :D
Arguiably, FlaSh "revolutionized" with the double armory build. But it's not as big as SaviOr ZvT.
I think you can count (not in order)
- Boxer (Terran was weak. Not after him. also too much thing to count since this guy made Blizzard patch the game multiple times).
- NaDa (Macro)
- Oov (Macro and Expanding technics)
- Shark and then July (muta micro)
- SaviOr (For ZvT although he was a monster in ZvP too)
- Reach (Macro Protoss)
- Bisu (because fuck this guy and fuck corsairs).
- JD for his ZvZ.
- Flash (his mech vs Protoss with double armory. (was that the medusa build or something like that).
I have trouble remembnering everything now. Weird to say BW is older than my niece
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United States13143 Posts
iirc Flash made a lot of small to medium sized innovations, it wasn't just him executing better than everyone else.
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On February 04 2015 04:43 Elyvilon wrote:
iirc Flash made a lot of small to medium sized innovations, it wasn't just him executing better than everyone else.
Well it was both combined. For example he made 14 CC standard in TvZ but only for himself because everyone else did just die to agressive play...
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On February 04 2015 04:49 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 04:43 Elyvilon wrote:
iirc Flash made a lot of small to medium sized innovations, it wasn't just him executing better than everyone else. Well it was both combined. For example he made 14 CC standard in TvZ but only for himself because everyone else did just die to agressive play...
making revolutions only for your own self is pretty op
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Flash definitely made a LOT of innovations. But I was thinking in a more fundamental sense. Like Savior utterly standardizing ZvT into the form of muta -> lurk -> hive play, a general framework that continued even during the 2hatch fad that held on for a period of time where the only person still going 3hatch openings consistently was Effort. Something comparable, I suppose, could be the lategame TvZ stuff that started with Fantasy's strategy against Jaedong in the two Outsider games that Flash developed on heavily into a more general lategame framework that wasn't just a one-off map specific thing that then developed into a full-out mech switch.
And no, 14cc really isn't an innovation and it was never a standard in TvZ. It didn't really do anything to change the strategic framework anyway. Going no pool 3hatch or a more standard 3hatch opening doesn't really change anything on the actual framework. It's just a greedier opening. It's the same thing with 14cc in comparison to rax fe or 12nexus vs forge fe or 1gate fe.
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On February 04 2015 15:37 koreasilver wrote:
Flash definitely made a LOT of innovations. But I was thinking in a more fundamental sense.
That's the point I wouldn't completely agree with. Don't misunderstand, I agree with some parts of the argument.
It might be just me, but it seems as if the game was mostly judged as "fundamental" change in "strategy" or meta by tons of players who just started to play BW at that point or shortly before. Someone mentioned in the thread that this game would have made the Protoss players use Forge FE as standardized opening. Not really, I guess.
What the game did (and that's what Bisu achievement was), was showing that even the best could be beaten with an old idea. There were no real fundamental changes anywhere. The maps back then already forced some sort of macro oriented play, as well as what Zerg did in that era. It demanded other mechanics and a slightly different kind of focus on execution - which Bisu was capable of in a "best" way possible. What made it really outstanding was the context, that he must have played in cold blood without doing many mistakes. That he did. For the rest of the players it was easier to to play in cold blood as well, once they saw it was already done. A mental thing, I guess.
It's always dangerous to want to pin point a "fundamental" change to one game, or to say a player was fundamental for the game because of just one set of series. Bisu was fundamental in a way, that he broke the record of the tyrant twice and that he was the slayer of the best Zerg players, but other than that, he wasn't the guy who I'd connect to genius strategy developement right away. He was the right guy in the right place in the right time in the right match up. Shouldn't be a flame against Bisu, just trying to put it in context. It's prolly something you can say about any of the big names and big matches. Bisu is or was outstanding, because he showed high level games over a longer time frame. That makes him better than many other Protoss players, not that he won one series once against one of the best players of his time.
Seriously though, for me games with a related "fundamental" status would be rA's recall (which would stun anyone but the possi players who saw that move in any game they played), Yellow's massive Swarms featured in the Pimpest Plays (which wasn't that new, but mindblowing nonetheless), Boxers hundreds of small micro actions (e.g. how he stomped Blackman on LT)(which is ridiculous today, but wasn't without LL), sAviOr beating Nada to a pulp on Longinus, or FlaSh waltzing literally over a no-mistake-making ZerO on Polaris Rhapsody. Yet, most of these games were no final, nor were they considered fundamental. Hence, I agree with Plexa with the "if the context of the finals is taken away" argument and disagree that this series alone was "fundamental". It was already there, it was just the final push the elite class needed.
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Savior vs NaDa on Longinus is how i met with the maestro. All his games on Longinus were beautifull.
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I've watched those games so many time and the following MSL Finals: Bisu vs Stork.
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United States33708 Posts
shit, is it march third yet?
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3/32007 was around when I started watching BW, and I really wish I had understood the importance of Bisu's win at the time. It really is fantastic how that build style became dominant for the rest of BW's dominant life. The only thing that came close to that impact after that is maybe the bio->mech switch in TvZ that for a good half year flummoxed so many Zergs.
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On February 09 2015 07:26 Jathin wrote:
Is it possible savior threw this series? I remember staying up to watch this game live and I was just baffled by how badly he got ass-pounded. I felt like there was something wrong with the whole thing. And then a year later it comes out that savior was a game-throwing scumbag. Since then I've always wondered if he threw this series.
Yeah, if by a "year later" you mean like three years later, and if it wasn't just Savior but more-or-less every Zerg getting shit on by Bisu for time immemorial, then sure, yes, I might wonder too.
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I've been following BW since 2000 when I lived in South Korea. Trying to chalk up the Bisu vs. Savior upset by referring to cheating incidents that happened 2~3 years later is just asinine. No one is going to go back to a series that Hwasin lost and say, well, he was caught cheating two years later - do you guys think he threw the game?
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Whoa I randomly pop onto TL for the first time in like a year (feels longer since the glory days tho) and what do I find but...
a JWD blog :OOOO
about bw
specifically savior vs bisu
and it brings out all the bw oldies
:')
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i got chills just from reading the blog
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if anything that particular defeat triggered his overall downfall which eventually lead him into being the centre of the matchfixing scandal. butterfly effect if you will.
if he had won, who knows how it would have turned out, savior might never turn to matchfixing a few years later and just retire in glory.
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EPT
